swelling around eyes?

[romad119]

I ahve noticed that my veiled somedays has swelling around teh eye sockets. It looks loose and fatty. Then the next day it will be gone, etc. Is this related to hydration levels?

[romad119]

It seems to come and go and just shows up in the morning.

[Veiledchamlver]

that is their way of cleaning out their eyes.

[dragonflyreptiles]

Can you get a picture on a "bad eye day"?

What is the humidty in the cage?

Eye problems can be from a lact of viatamin A as well

What are your gutloading the crix and what supplements do you use on the feeders?

[Chris Anderson]

With chameleons, its more often too much vitamin A than too little. If this is an abnormal swelling and not just cleaning the eye, my feeling is it would probably be some type of infection or edema from over supplementation. What is your supplementation like and gutloading like? Any pics?

Chris

[romad119]

I dust his crickets about 2-3 times a week. Otherwiseits silkworms (mulberry type stuff) and roaches (fruits). The humidity is fairly good with rainmaker jr sraying at 4 hr intervals during the day. and about 6 hrs at night. I'll have to get a new humidty gage...last one broke.

Do you suggest less supplementation? I use reptisafe for teh water and miner-all.

I have, now with more better setup, stopped using a infrared light at night and went to a ceramic heater. I noticed the light would keep him awake. Some say they can't see the light but he still fed out of the dish when i put it in while under infrared light. Not to anthromorphize but he did have tired looking eyes. Maybe he isnt sleeping enough? Hopefully no 'night' light will help. Also he has been in his new set-up for about a week. Maybe stress form the new pad?

[dragonflyreptiles]

Originally posted by Chris Anderson
With chameleons, its more often too much vitamin A than too little. If this is an abnormal swelling and not just cleaning the eye, my feeling is it would probably be some type of infection or edema from over supplementation. What is your supplementation like and gutloading like? Any pics?
Chris


A lack in Vitamin A can cause health problems and usually with the eyes or respitory system AND too much vitamin A can cause other health problems. So you first need to find out if you are providing too much or not enough which can be hard to do.

Overdose of Vitamin A does not affect the eyes BUT a lack of vitamin A will affect the eyes!

Id take the cham to a reptile vet to know which way to go!


VITAMIN A DEFICIENCY

Chameleons may present with signs of vitamin A deficiency. Clinical signs of vitamin A deficiency include eye problems, respiratory infections, neurological dysfunction, spinal kinking, difficulty shedding, and increased formation of hemipenal plugs. These chameleons typically have a history of low preformed vitamin A supplementation. Usually insects are being fed a poor diet and are only being dusted with a calcium / vitamin D supplement or a multivitamin that has only beta-carotene but no preformed vitamin A

Research in the panther chameleon fed a restricted vitamin A diet resulted in these same findings. Treatment for vitamin A deficiency involves giving vitamin A solution orally. It is recommended to use a multivitamin (for dusting insects) with some pre-formed vitamin several times weekly to avoid giving excessive vitamin A. Additionally, feeding insects a beta-carotene rich diet such as green leafy vegetables, carrots and sweet potato, prior to feeding them to the chameleons may be beneficial.

HYPERVITAMINOSIS (excessive vitamin A)

Vitamin A

Excess vitamin A supplementation may interfere with the metabolism of vitamin D3, resulting in metabolic bone disease. Excess vitamin A supplementation may also lead to organ toxicity (Kidney, Liver).

[Chris Anderson]

Alan,

You are misting at night? You shouldn't do this, it can commonly lead to a URI. While it rains at night in nature, the temperature drop combined with the chill of evaporation from misting can easily lead to URI. When you say you are dusting 2-3 times per week, what are you using? Just mineral? Is it I or O? What are you feeding your crickets?

Wendy,

You really need to cite your source if you are quoting someones research like that.

According to Dr. Lopez, with over supplementation of vit A in chameleons, the liver starts to store the excess. At a certain point, it cannot store anymore and it can take weeks or months before normal levels are restored. When this happens, the liver becomes swollen and a sign is actually hypercalcemia (too much calcium in the blood, mobilized from the bones, a type of MBD). Edema then occurs (especially in the face and chin). Edema can often show up as swelling at the basally in the eye turrets. You can read up about much of this here: http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

I would agree with the statement that it is important to talk to a vet.

Chris

[dragonflyreptiles]

Originally posted by Chris Anderson


Wendy,

You really need to cite your source if you are quoting someones research like that.

According to Dr. Lopez, with over supplementation of vit A in chameleons, the liver starts to store the excess. At a certain point, it cannot store anymore and it can take weeks or months before normal levels are restored. When this happens, the liver becomes swollen and a sign is actually hypercalcemia (too much calcium in the blood, mobilized from the bones, a type of MBD). Edema then occurs (especially in the face and chin). Edema can often show up as swelling at the basally in the eye turrets. You can read up about much of this here: http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

I would agree with the statement that it is important to talk to a vet.

Chris

Sorry about that here is the link for my info,:

http://www.all-creatures.com/456012.html

[Chris Anderson]

Wendy,

I'd like to note that in no way does your source indicate that Vitamin A over supplementation does not effect the eyes as you stated in your post. Ferguson (2004) provides aditional information regarding his research with vitamin A in chameleons: "A deficiency of the fat-soluble vitamin A (retinol or retinyl-esters) retards growth significantly and causes several other pathological symptoms. These include eye closure or sensitivity, tail-tip necrosis, extreme spinal or tail flexure, loss of muscular coordination, hemipenal impaction, failure to undergo egg production, and metabolic bone disease in combination with there other symptoms (Ferguson et al. 1996)."

Chris

[romad119]

I'll stop the misting at night, easy enough to do with the rainmaker.

Its the Mineral All 'I' variety.
I use different gutloads. One from my lfs, the other from online.
I also add apples or pears.

He has been fine the last several days. He's shedding currently.

[dragonflyreptiles]

Originally posted by Chris Anderson
Wendy,

I'd like to note that in no way does your source indicate that Vitamin A over supplementation does not effect the eyes as you stated in your post. Ferguson (2004) provides aditional information regarding his research with vitamin A in chameleons: "A deficiency of the fat-soluble vitamin A (retinol or retinyl-esters) retards growth significantly and causes several other pathological symptoms. These include eye closure or sensitivity, tail-tip necrosis, extreme spinal or tail flexure, loss of muscular coordination, hemipenal impaction, failure to undergo egg production, and metabolic bone disease in combination with there other symptoms (Ferguson et al. 1996)."

Chris


I have never seen an article that said too much vitamin A caused eye problems only that too much vitamin A causes other problems, in an overdose of vitamin A the eyes are not mentioned as being affected.

So I should have worded it that way

[Bringerofdoom]

Originally posted by codyremmyloo
I have never seen an article that said too much vitamin A caused eye problems only that too much vitamin A causes other problems, in an overdose of vitamin A the eyes are not mentioned as being affected.

So I should have worded it that way

Go figure, people who know nothing about nothing, dont bother to properly research stuff.

and what you said was still wrong. no wonder why chris tells you to stop telling people things. its not information, but misinformation.

[dragonflyreptiles]

Originally posted by Bringerofdoom
Go figure, people who know nothing about nothing, dont bother to properly research stuff.

and what you said was still wrong. no wonder why chris tells you to stop telling people things. its not information, but misinformation.


Doom, Chris's info shows the same as mine, a Lack of vitamin A causes several problems including EYE problems

An overdose of vitamin a causes organ damage as well as others but the eyes are not mentioned in his info nor in mine that an overdse of vitamin a causes any eye problems

From Chris above:
"A deficiency of the fat-soluble vitamin A (retinol or retinyl-esters) retards growth significantly and causes several other pathological symptoms. These include eye closure or sensitivity, tail-tip necrosis, extreme spinal or tail flexure, loss of muscular coordination, hemipenal impaction, failure to undergo egg production, and metabolic bone disease in combination with there other symptoms (Ferguson et al. 1996)."

Chris

[Bringerofdoom]

wendy wendy wendy, chris apparantly is talking about VitA overdose. you on the otherhand are suggesting VitA underdose. 2 opposite things, also very deadly if its a vitA od and your suggesting more vitA cause he was under dosing it.

i dont even have to know a thing about chameleons and i know one of THE most common signs of VITA overdose in any reptile is a kind of swelling to the eyes. this is what i am shure chris means.

but obviously you cant read things right.

[Bringerofdoom]

HYPERVITAMINOSIS (excessive vitamin A)

Vitamin A

Excess vitamin A supplementation may interfere with the metabolism of vitamin D3, resulting in metabolic bone disease. Excess vitamin A supplementation may also lead to organ toxicity (Kidney, Liver).



thats from your page

And if we sidestep the provitamins and give preformed vitamin A it has to be better, right? Well, as Andy pointed out, vitamin A can be VERY toxic. As we give more provitamins (carotenoids), the conversion to retinol slows down and diminishes problems. But, if we give PREFORMED A it bypasses the barriers and barges in unabated. No problem, the liver will store it. What happens when the liver is full? A single dose can fill all available space in the liver. In most animals, it takes WEEKS for the liver to get back to normal concentrations of vitamin A after being at maximum capacity once all vit A has been excluded from the diet. Humans may take 6 months! When the liver is full, the incoming retinol with the "escorts" get really pissed. Their only job in life, getting to the liver, has been blocked. They have no choice but to go on a systemic rampage. While retinol released from the liver with the binding proteins can enter cells, the retinol with the chylomicrons (escorts) becomes toxic. One of the many signs of this is HYPERcalcemia. That's right, too much calcium in the blood. Where does the calcium come from? It is mobilized from the bones. The cham now has a type of metabolic bone disease. The liver is swollen, edema develops, especially in the face/chin region. The kidneys are damaged or destroyed. The cham becomes anemic. Some of this is reversible, some is permanent and can be fatal quickly

thats from chris's page samething, but the page chris links to bothers to go in depth about it. unlike your page that brielfy talks about it.

[dragonflyreptiles]

Originally posted by Bringerofdoom
thats from your page



thats from chris's page samething, but the page chris links to bothers to go in depth about it. unlike your page that brielfy talks about it.

And Chris's info as well as mine shows that a LACK of vitamin A can cause eye problems, an overdose causes other problems and neither his info or mine says that an overdose affects the eyes.

I also stated and Chris agreed that the only way to know if you have a lack or an overdose is to take the reptile to the vet so there is no guessing at what is causing it.