Nosy Mitsio Hatchings: First in the US

[mattjillson]

Wanted to let all the die hard Panther lovers out there know that the first comfirmed hatchings of the new Panther local from the island of Nosy Mitsio has happened at the Chameleon Company greenhouse - pretty cool since I was there to see some of these first breedings/layings. Also known as the Mafana, Soabana and Crapana to hide their true location from most of the exporters, it won't be long until we see mass numbers of this local in the US markets. So far there are 15 total hatchlings with roughly 100 more beginning their sweats and quite of few more retained clutches left to go. This number makes up 3 unrelated clutches so there will be plenty of breeding amoung these groups to insure they can get a good foothold in the States. Hopefully these inital numbers will prevent the over collection of this population in the wild but I guess only time will tell. Anyways, be on the lookout for upcoming pics as I am urging Jim to take some shots but I'll be out there again in a couple weeks so for sure some pictures will be taken then. Below is an example of what an adult male looks like.

Matt Jillson

[mattjillson]

Forgot to mention that Dr. Ivan Alfonso played a crucial role in the acclimation and de-parasiting of these fresh imports to ensure their survival and has contributed in a major way to the hands down sole success the Chameleon Company is currently enjoying with this local.

-Matt Jillson

[alejandro]

nice
I wish tthat nothing go wrong with the babys.

[romad119]

Thats alwasy good news to hear. I like the white lined mouth. Hopefully the lineage is kept well documented as ones are bred and sold.

[mattjillson]

Recieved word from Jim at the Chameleon Company: another 22 Mitsio eggs have hatched today. When good news rains, it POURS!

-Matt Jillson

[romad119]

How does this get treated in the business aspect? Does the fact that the hatchlings are the first drive the price up over the fact that they are less colorful in appearence when compared to other panthers? Personally I like these, soem of the other panthers seem to odd with their striking features...lol

Would I have to wait for the pricing to get down to other panthers do to less availibility? I'm thinking the first so many should and righfully be taken up by others who want to breed them and spread teh good ole CB cheer?

As someone who would possibly try breeding them I think its my bets bet for the species to wait until the breeding levels go up so I'm not robbing a rarer variety from procreating.

What's your thoughts?

[hemijanks]

What is going on? someone named ChameleonCompany posted on Kingsnake that the mitsio claims were not true. Here is the link

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=624795,627292

Who has the real story and why are we being told 2 different things? You sound like you are 100% positive that i'll be able to get myself a mitsio. I don't know who to believe anymore. I was following a thread on the BOI and 2 partners say one thing but the other partner always say something different.
I hope you guys are not running some kind of scam. Is this a scam gone wrong? the storys you guys are telling are not matching up and something sounds fishy.

lance

[romad119]

it just seems that one guy is just being more careful. AKA don't count your eggs before they hatch. But yes, its better to downplay teh event until things pan out.

[mattjillson]

Lance, go and re-read Jim's (The Chameleon Company) post a bit more carefully as you obviously didn't read everything he wrote clearly. Then apply it to the common knowledge of dealing with wild caught females and I think it will be clearer to you. But, as it seems you don't understand the inherent risks of dealing with WC females I'll break it down for you.

What Jim said was that these hatchlings are from wild caught females. I don't see where he says anything different from what has been previously posted other than adding that the females could be from a different local. Now, because it is basically next to impossible to tell the females from various locals apart with 100% certainty, yes, there is a chance that these babies could be hybrids. Buyers of WC animals are at the mercy of the exporters in Madagascar to make sure they label the animals correctly when shipped out. Now, why we are fairly confident that these animals are indeed pure is because Jim was there with the importer when he received the shipment and unpacked the freshly imported boxes that were labeled Nosy Mitsio. Having the ability to hand pick the animals fresh from being imported gives us the edge above everyone else in making sure the animals are in fact pure because there is no chance that maybe a female is mistakenly kept in a mis-labeled cage and sold as something different by accident at the importer's facility, i.e. Ambanja, Sambava, ect. and visa versa.

Now, does this fact mean that they are 100% pure and we can sell them uncolored as undoubtedly pure Mitsios? No, it doesn't, but we have the highest degree of probability out of the few people that were able to acquire females that they are indeed pure because of this fact. This is why we are comfortable saying that we are the 1st to hatch this new local in the States. But, if it happens that they don't turn out pure then that most likely means everyone else's females aren't Mistsio specific either because of this fact. But, usually when an animal such as a Panther is imported for the first time the exporters make every attempt to make sure they are specific to their local because the increase in money they get from them. To back this claim up I'll do a basic economics lesson for you.

Usually when a new local is imported the exporters go to great lengths to ensure that they label the animals right because that diminishes their credibility among their importer clients in future shipments. Bottom line is that "new local" animals of any species command a higher dollar amount because of their newness. Mislabeling a shipment will essentially lead to less money in an exporter's pocket because the importers can't trust them to get the order right causing them to be hesitant to shell out more money for animals they can't trust to be where they are claimed to be from. This is because whatever consumers bought the new locals the previous time that were "burned" won't want to spend the inflated prices they did previously to get unspecific locals which means that is less of a pool, which is small to begin with, of people for the importer to sell to. It all comes down to money at the end of the day and if the Z importers can't sell the animals because the limited people who buy fresh WC's are leery of loosing money on non specific animals again they won't want to pay a higher price for a new local from Y exporter which means in order for him to sell the animals he has the price will have to drop - meaning... the exporters will make significantly less money overall which they, nor anyone in their position would want. But, this still doesn't mean that they are guaranteed pure animals either but the probability is high that they are. This leaves you as the end consumer the option of buying or not buying, which is your decision.

I hope this lengthy post clears up some misconceptions you jumped to. I think if you read the posts a bit more slowly and comprehended what you read you would see that there isn't anything "fishy" going on. Jim did not say anything different from what was already said except he did clarify that there was the chance of them not being pure Mitsios, a fact apparent to just about anyone familiar to Panthers. What I can say with 100% certainty, however, is not knowing the basics about wild caught Panthers and females in general shows that you most likely don't know enough to properly keep them for the long term as all of this is fairly common knowledge which in turn undoubtedly means you won't "be able to get [yourself] a mitsio", at least from us anyways. My advice for you Lance is to start out slow, build up some knowledge with the more common Panthers or even a Veiled for that matter and then try to get into the WC or F1 realm, as it isn't for the "newbie" hobbyists. But, there still is hope for you as we aren't the only ones in the US to have this new local and eventually there will hopefully be other lines available for you to buy from. Vincent Wong is one breeder who is currently working with this local and last I checked has had some success breeding them. Lane Gergely is another person who has some animals from the original shipment too. Keep an eye out and I am sure you'll eventually see something crop up.

-Matt Jillson

[hemijanks]

here is what i dont understand. you say in the first post that and i quote

"Wanted to let all the die hard Panther lovers out there know that the first comfirmed hatchings of the new Panther local from the island of Nosy Mitsio has happened at the Chameleon Company greenhouse "

here is what your partner says and i quote

"I can't verify this until we see how the male offspring color up. I do not know that these are the first Nosy Mitsio offspring in the U.S. .... just the first here at my facility"

im not sure what dictionary you are reading, but confirmed to me means that it is 100%. now you tell us that you are not sure, and write some long explanation on why you and your partner are saying too different things. now you also tell me that what you say originally is actually not what you meant. u make it seem like i am the one to blame for this misunderstanding and you make fun of me. all i was doing is trying to get one, and make sure i dont get ripped off. and you have to make fun of me like i cant read. but u are the one contradicting yourselfs.

IS THIS MY FAULT? AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT THOUGHT THIS GUY IS MISLEADING US?


Lance

[mattjillson]

No one is making fun of you Lance. You just aren't well informed on the situation and posting like you understand it. Go re-read all the posts again because you still aren't getting it. I'll do a re-breakdown though to help you save time: animals came in as Nosy Mitsios. Jim hand picked them fresh out of the box. They have been bred. Now eggs the have hatched. That is a confirmed hatching. Like in any WC pairing there is a chance for the female to be from another local but in this case we have the highest degree of probability that they are indeed pure because of being able to unpack the boxes right from being imported. We did not post a classifieds ad promising pure Mitsios although the are not colored up but at this point based on the situation we have a confirmed hatching. There is nothing said that is different among us, except Jim wanted to mention the WC female factor, which anyone that knows the basics will know there is that chance.

You have my email Lance, you could have shot me a message to further ask about it but decided not to and then post there was some type of "scam" or something is "fishy". If you don't know all the angles of a situation you shouldn't be posting like you know something when you don't. I would have been more than happy to answer all you questions and had you posted questions rather than accusations the tone of my post different but to be clear I wasn't "making fun of you" - everyone has to start somewhere.

-Matt Jillson

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Lance and Matt and others ...
This is Jim at The Chameleon Company. Lance, I thank you for taking notice of my post in the other forum, and Matt, I thank you for the time you took for the long explanations. Matt is essentially correct, and I not only agree with his point that it would be incorrect to guarantee that the F-1 offspring from any WC female are true to the claims of the importer (or breeder), but also that the average buyer needs to beware of buying such offspring unless they are either a) colored-up males; or b) females, where a picture of their colored-up male siblings can be provided. The sale of chameleons on the internet, even in the largest sites, abound with claims of validity assigned to the origin of the sire or dam. In too many cases, this means nothing, as there has not been a verification of either the dam, or the sibling brothers. How many of us have laughed at the pictures of colored-up males for sale, where they don't look even close to a true representation of the locale, or contain obvious irregularities, and yet the seller is relying on and stating the reputation of the original provider of the dam? Not to detract from those providers, as mis-identified dams and mixed-blood offspring are inherent to this business. My purpose for making the post in the other thread was two-fold 1) While I appreciate much of what is said by others about my business in various forums, classifieds, etc, there is always room for clarification from the horse's mouth (those who frequent the BOI know of my concerns here); and 2) to point out to potential future buyers of my product or the product of others a good "buyer beware" concern. I know many of the top breeders in this business, and I believe that they would not only concur on what I say above, but strive to provide very accurate animals, and will work with customers to provide such assurances. I also have every confidence in my Mitsios and the importer that brought them in. We unpacked them together, and all seemed to be accurately labeled. It is obvious that there is a lot of passion out there for these animals, and I hope that all are successful in focusing that passion on rewarding chameleon keeping.
Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company