Kenyan choices

[Otter_23]

What other variants of kenyans besides the axanthic, albino, snow and flame race?
Mark

[Karen Hulvey]

There's also paradox albino and paradox snow.

[Sand&SunReptile]

I think thats about it. Unless you count the variation in normals. There are yellow, and brown base colored normals, and Orange and brown base colored normals.
Also, the Barkers have a Piebald Kenyan. I'm not sure whether they have proven it yet, or not.

[Otter_23]

Would it be right to assume the paradox aren't compatible with for instance the regular albino? I just saw some pictures of striped ones. Is there a place I can see the pied? Thanks for responding.
Mark

[Karen Hulvey]

I don't know if paradox albino is compatible with albino or not. Or for that matter how it relates to snow and paradox snow. I can't find anything online about sand boa genetics. VPI has for sale axanthic het for paradox albino and normals double het for axanthic and paradox albino.

When you have a clutch of babies that have a paradox albino or a paradox snow in it, are there also albinos and/or snows?

Do you need an axanthic to get paradox albinos or paradox snows?

[carraig]

I raise other variations that you can see at
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=199983#post199983

As for pied, robert stout has a picture of his at www.kingsnake.com and VPI reptiles has a really nice pied at www.vpi.com

Let me know if you have any more questions,
Thanks,
Carraig Stanwyck

[Karen Hulvey]

Wow, where do you find such little beauties?

[carraig]

I was lucky, and got into the game before they were made public However, there are some from this same strain being offered on Kingsnake.com right now by brian emanuel under the classifieds section. I think he wants $200 per.

Check it out,
Thanks,
Carraig

[Karen Hulvey]

That's the way to do it. Actually, though, $200 for a completely new morph is really peanuts if you stop to think about it. It's just too bad I'm always broke. LOL

[Sand&SunReptile]

I would have thought that your Tigers and Stripes would be sold much higher. They have such potential mixed with other morphs.

[carraig]

Great point. That's exactly why I'm not offering them for sale at all at this point :spinner03

[Sand&SunReptile]

You should make (this would take time) make a Tiger X Stripe to reduce the pattern as much as possible, then mix that with albino, and axanthic, stripe too. Have some killer looking morphs. But, I don't know how much the tiger would do to the stripe, might just be easier to go with stripe mixed into the morphs...

[Otter_23]

So the stripe and tiger are not pure kenyan? Am I reading it right, that they are a hybrid? Thanks
Mark

[carraig]

Actually, in reality, the name kenyan just refers to locality more than anything. Much like the rosy boas, they vary in how they look from spot to spot. Except for very rare instances, you would never find wild kenyans that look like the ones we have today in captivity because ours have been bred for their color for so many years, they are now much brighter. So, in some parts of that region, they look orange, in some parts, more yellow. You've heard of the flame race which is still a kenyan, but which has a naturally high orange which stays looking better into adulthood, and then you've got the rufescens which is just another natural morph from a different region. The rufescens are solid color, either a brown or black most of the time. These are all eastern african sand boas, which has been given the name Kenyan.

However, because the rufescens look very similar, at least to the snake catchers over there, like stilletos, which are very poisonous. There aren't many rufescens imported to the US. That is why when they are on Kingsnake, they go for around 2k for a pair.

These morphs aren't a naturally occuring variety that I know of, but they aren't hybrids. The best way to think about it would be breeding different localities in rosies. In fact, the kenyan you most often see is nearly always bright orange because it, too, was crossed with the flame race at some point through the generations.

Hope that clears it up.

Regards,
-Carraig Stanwyck

[Otter_23]

I think I get what your saying. It would be like breeding a miami phase corn snake to a okeetee corn, both are corn snakes just different localities, but not like breeding grey banded king to an AZ mountain king?
Mark

[Sand&SunReptile]

That was a good way of explaining it.
Kenyan Sand Boa is the trade name, but in reality "Kenyan" Sand Boas do occur in various locations in East Africa, not just Kenya. I think that name may be there because the most "normal" looking ones from what we are used to come from the Kenyan region.
You pretty much have it with the whole Miami x Okeetee deal too.
What Carraig has are simple recessive morphs, just like albino, or piebald, or axanthic, hypomelanistic all of those kind of things...

[carraig]

http://www.kingsnake.com/sandboa/colubrin.html

This page explains it really well, except that it's a little old. As of now, there is one breeder producing pure rufescens that I know of, and a few others who have aquired breeding stock to do the same (including me). This page just describes them as different phases as opposed to different localities, but still, basically the same thing. They are all e.colubrinus. This page also fails to mention the flame race sand boa phase. And, as the morphs I work with were created recently in captivity, they also aren't mentioned.

Enjoy,
Carraig Stanwyck

[Sand&SunReptile]

You should post some pics of your rufescens...

[carraig]

there are a lot of rufescens pics at the kingsnake forum, pics of them aren't nearly as rare.

[Otter_23]

Thank you for taking the time to explain it too me. Hopefully in the future I will be purchasing a few. Good luck with your breeding and keep up posted when you might be selling a few. I was wondering if you know if the paradox snow is compatible with a regular snow? I only have 2 right now but they are a fun and interesting boa. Thanks again
Mark

[Karen Hulvey]

I really want a couple paradox albinos but until I win the lottery or something I'll have to wait, at least until good old tax time. I also like the striped ones you pictured in your first post. I may get a couple of those too.

[pythonmdk]

The reason why they are refered to as kenyan sandboas is because the first captives came from kenya, now they come from other regions but the name has stuck, as for the morphs albinos they actually originated from a cross of kenyans and an albino egyptian sand boa, the only true albinos that are pure kenyans are paradox albino and paradox snows, I don't know what would happen if you breed a paradox albino to a normal albino, it may be interesting, has anyone ever heard about that cross or tried it?

[Sand&SunReptile]

I doubt they would be compatible. No matter how minute and dilluted the Egyptian Sand Boa blood in them was. That is of course, unless every single Paradox Albino has been bred through the normal albinos, meaning every single Albino, Paradox Albino, and Snow (both albino and paradox albino) would all be related to a certain degree, no matter how slim that may be.
I'm willing to bet that they are not compatible. Of course, my above theory only expresses the fact that all albinos would be compatible with every signel paradox albino, and vise versa.
I have plenty of time to figure it out, I really should buy more Kenyans, I miss having them around.

[pythonmdk]

My guess, but just a simple guess is that if you breed albino to paradox albino you would get some sort of albino, I just don't know if it one albino gene would be dominant over another, you may also get a new form of albinoism or which I think is most unlikely but possible a normal looking double het for both albino and paradox albino. Just my guess, I wish I could find some paradox albinos in my area to test out the theory. If anyone ever tries it I'd love to hear the results.

[Sand&SunReptile]

I would bet you would get double het for albino, and paradox albino.

[pythonmdk]

I'd take that bet if I could find some paradox albinos or hets. Does anyone know if a breeder that will ship some hets to canada?

[Sand&SunReptile]

I would have to look around. I cant name any off the top of my head.