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BriarpatchHerps
12-06-2004, 06:33 PM
There's a new company out building its name and bank account on the mutilation of wild serpents. I'm not sure if Rich has a better place for this post or not but they instantly hit the bad guy list in my book.

http://www.snakesnare.com/product_info.php

DThomas
12-06-2004, 06:40 PM
And right in my own backyard too....

http://www.betterwhois.com/bwhois.cgi?domain=snakesnare.com&x=59&y=13


Registrant Contact:
SnakeSnare, LLC
John Keyloun (jkeyloun@CircleK.com)
+1.6027283336
Fax: +1.6027283336
1201 S. McClintock Dr. #114
Tempe, AZ 85281
US

Administrative Contact:
SnakeSnare, LLC
John Keyloun (jkeyloun@CircleK.com)
+1.6027283336
Fax: +1.6027283336
1201 S. McClintock Dr. #114
Tempe, AZ 85281
US

Technical Contact:
SnakeSnare, LLC
John Keyloun (jkeyloun@CircleK.com)
+1.6027283336
Fax: +1.6027283336
1201 S. McClintock Dr. #114
Tempe, AZ 85281
US

Billing Contact:
SnakeSnare, LLC
John Keyloun (jkeyloun@CircleK.com)
+1.6027283336
Fax: +1.6027283336
1201 S. McClintock Dr. #114
Tempe, AZ 85281
US

nicolai
12-06-2004, 08:05 PM
I wish i had a bogus credit card number so i could order 5000 of them and ship them to siberia of something and put them out of business.Needless to say I left them a nasty email to let them know how i feel about thier business.
Nick Bonn

Tripple H Herps
12-06-2004, 08:38 PM
All I have to say here is, "that I am speechless." Its disgusting to see this happening. I wish more people would get educated on how snakes help the environment and are not "evil serpents" as they are so stated. Maybe this John guy should sell snake grabbers and bags rather then death traps???

cavu
12-06-2004, 09:12 PM
The thread would not open so I went to the home page and here is what I got:

"Snakes are hibernating, see you next Summer. Thanks for your interest in SnakeSnare. "

What is all this about?

MIke Blackston

Tripple H Herps
12-06-2004, 09:18 PM
I don’t know maybe he received enough nasty emails. Got scared and hid in a corner. :beer: "or at least I hope"

Tripple H Herps
12-06-2004, 09:21 PM
What is all this about?

If you had not already seen the website. It was a website based on a new "product" that killed snakes by removing there head in a wire like device.

ChaosCat
12-06-2004, 09:57 PM
Here is an excerpt:

"SnakeSnare® is the least expensive engineered product in the industry for catching snakes. Perfect for neighborhoods, golf courses, and community locations where gunfire is impractical or illegal. SnakeSnare® can capture a snake for relocation but is designed for instant decapitation. Many neighborhoods feel that a good snake is a dead snake. Hunters use the SnakeSnare® to harvest valuable skins without damaging the snake by shotgun blast. The skin and meat are more saleable with instant decapitation."

Tim Cole
12-06-2004, 10:29 PM
I saw the website before it went down. Due to all of our e-mails I'm sure. They are selling a device basically made of a cable, a handle, and a pipe. It is sold as a complete unit or you can supply the pipe and assemble it yourself. They promote it as a safe tool to humanely move snakes (venomous or not), or it can be used to decapitate the snake. Here is a copy of the letter I sent:

John,
Your lack of concern for the environment is appalling. Most snakes are very beneficial and harmless ones which indirectly keep the venomous ones away by feeding on the same food source of rodents. To realistically rid the area of snakes, eliminate the rodents which are more harmful to us and the environment than the snakes! I would also expect there to be a liability issue with your product in the hands of the general public which has limited knowledge of snakes. To avoid getting bitten, leave the snake ALONE! The average snake bite in the USA comes about from someone trying to capture, molest, or kill the snake. Your device will injure a struggling snake so it is not a humane device as described.

In this day and age we try to educate the public about conservation and the environment which effects us all. YOU have taken this effort back to the Stone Age! When all of our food crops have been eaten by rodents who will you blame? This has happened to several third world countries already. Cleaning up the yard or property not only looks good but is the most effective way to rid the area of unwanted snakes. It's that easy! When I want to find snakes where do I go? Not to the woods, but to abandoned and occupied human habitation that has trash and debris which harbors the food source (rodents) and provides cover for the snakes.

Your device is a cruel instrument and will probably result in several bites with it's use. Using your device is cruelty and in Texas animal cruelty is a federal offense. Having been an Animal Control Officer I have dealt with animal cruelty and the courts. I expect you will be too in the near future!

Tim Cole

Tripple H Herps
12-06-2004, 10:36 PM
Very well done Tim. I sent them ane mail very similare to yours as well. I tried to be freindly so that they did not think I was just some crazy person. Below is my email:

I just thought I would tell you. Your product brings chills to my spine. At the whole thought of decapitating a living snake! Do you know snakes will feel pain for almost 3 to 4 hours after decapitation. There ability to process on low blood sugar causes this inconceivable thought to be reality. I am not telling you how to run your life but PLEASE stop selling these products. I am not an animal rights activist and infact I cant stand them but this is mindless killing of a creature that is in fact needed for this planets biological functions. Maybe you should sell snake grabbers with long pools and foldable bags so that people can redeposit the snake back in the wilderness. This mindless killing of innocent creatures needs to stop. The less people that do it the better. I hope you understand what I am saying and do not just brush me off as some sort of nut job.

Thanks, Jim
Herpetologist
C/F Tripple H Herps

Rockford
12-06-2004, 11:03 PM
Great job on those e-mails. Hopefully he will reconsider his selling efforts. I would imagine there might be a liability issue if a kid were to get his hands on one of these and use it improperly(if there is a proper way to use them) and get bit by a venomous snake.

If you notice on the website he said using it to relocate a snake as well. How do you relocate it....if it were venemous? Does it come with directions? What a schmuck this guy is!!!

Anyway, well done.

Brett Thacker

Damon Theis
12-06-2004, 11:30 PM
I also saw the site before it was pulled. Tim, very nice job on the letter.
That "snare" was designed for one thing; and it was not relocation.

Tim Cole
12-07-2004, 12:41 AM
A member of another list saved his cache from his visit of the website. Here are the details:

"Product Information

a.. Lightweight
b.. Cost effective
c.. Clean
d.. Weight: 3.5 lbs
e.. Dimensions: 3/4" x 60" (it's five feet long)
SnakeSnare® SnakeSnare® Lite
a.. Fully assembled SnakeSnare®.
a.. Ships in a 60" cardboard tube.
a.. US $35.00 (includes shipping and taxes)
a.. Order Now
a.. "Do-It-Yourself" SnakeSnare®. Assembly required.*
a.. Ships in an envelope. You provide the 60" pipe. All other parts
included.**
a.. US $15.00 (includes shipping and taxes)
a.. Order Now


* Required tools: a drill with 1/8" drill bit, a knife or scissors, "vise"
pliers or other pliers, and a pop rivet tool.

** Included parts: compression fittings, 480 lb cable, caps for pipe, custom
foam grip, 5" T handle, pop rivets, assembly diagram.

SnakeSnare® is the least expensive engineered product in the industry for
catching snakes. Perfect for neighborhoods, golf courses, and community
locations where gunfire is impractical or illegal.

SnakeSnare® can capture a snake for relocation but is designed for instant
decapitation. Many neighborhoods feel that a good snake is a dead snake.
Hunters use the SnakeSnare® to harvest valuable skins without damaging the
snake by shotgun blast. The skin and meat are more saleable with instant
decapitation.


Top 10 Uses

a.. Use SnakeSnare® to capture a poisonous snake and relocate it to a
better environment; up close and personal snake traps

b.. Use SnakeSnare® to kill a dangerous snake instead of using a firearm,
especially if gunfire is illegal;

c.. Use SnakeSnare® to harvest valuable snake skins without damaging the
snake by shotgun blast;

d.. Use SnakeSnare® to instantly decapitate a snake. The skin and meat are
more saleable with instant decapitation;

e.. Use SnakeSnare® to kill dangerous rattlesnakes and vipers and other
snake breeds;

f.. Use SnakeSnare® instead of expensive snake tongs for snake hunting and
snake catching;

g.. Use SnakeSnare® to catch snakes for snake control and relocation to
other snake habitat;

h.. Use SnakeSnare® to kill unwanted snakes such as cottonmouth,
copperhead, viper;

i.. Use SnakeSnare® to hunt for snakes and reptiles with this manual snake
trap;

j.. Use SnakeSnare® to remove snakes from golf courses, public areas,
camping sites, mobile home parks, trailer parks."



Looks pretty grim. Lets hope they take it off the market due to the pressure put on them today. I would say we are headed in the right direction with the closing of their site.

ms_terese
12-07-2004, 01:02 AM
WHOA!!

I believe I saw that they were in Arizona? Is that legal there?

In Missouri, you'd get arrested for setting traps like that. There's no "season" for harvesting native snakes, and therefore not legal to kill them unless it's a confrontation with a venomous animal and you're in danger.

How horrible. :bandhead0

IanV
12-09-2004, 01:27 AM
Hey Guys,
I was contacted by them a while back to test out the snares. I agreed to it before I saw the decapitation part on his website.
I have used the snare a few times to help hold on to a slippery annie or rock, but otherwise they are just not worth it unfortunately.
Good to deal with though, just not a product I can back anymore.

Ian van Natter

IanV
12-09-2004, 01:31 AM
Oh Yeah, he isn't in Arizona anymore, but I don't think it fair to say where he is.

The snare worked great for holding cages open. I used it to try to hold on to some slippery snakes (mid-body of course) but couldn't tighten it enough to hold on well.

Just to say, the guy isn't evil. We may not agree with what he does, but we can educate instead of flood him with nasty emails.

Ian van Natter

Tim Cole
12-09-2004, 01:32 AM
Ian,
If you know how to contact them, maybe you could point out this thread along with all of the others concerning their butchery. :bandhead0

Tim Cole
12-09-2004, 01:44 AM
I would be surprised if that was possible in light of his actions. :shrug01: I'm glad the website is down and I feel we accomplished something by that. Maybe after all of the protesting and educated mail he received he will take it off the market!
And I thought Rattlesnake Round-ups was on the front battle lines. We can only persist. I believe the numbers of letters may be more effective than the contents of the letters providing they are well written with uneducated being the word to use instead of @#*^% words! :argue:

IanV
12-19-2004, 02:56 AM
I am posting here regarding some of the emails that John has been receiving.
While I do not have a problem with anyone emailing him explaining that killing snakes (in our opinions) is wrong, when it comes to personal threats and such, that crosses the line into criminal activities.
John lives right next to one of my cousins and he contacted me to see if I could help him test them out since he wanted to market these for restraining snakes in the same line as hooks and tongs. The product works great, just a little bit to hard to get it to hold on to a slippery annie or rock without hurting the snake.
I know he made them for himself and people in the past who used them to legally hunt rattlesnakes for meat or skin. I do not think John made these for people to go willy-nilly to kill everything that slithers.
John is a good guy, even if you do not like his opinion on things. While I do not support people killing snakes legally, I also do not see the problem (if it is legal). IF you do not like the product, a simple email explaining WHY you do not like the product is much better than threats, so please keep it civil if you feel you must contact him.
Instead of being hateful, why dont you try to educate him that we do not support the killing of snakes (Though I am sure most of us are fine with it as long as it is not against the law in the area). With a little work, I feel the product could become as useful as a hook or tong. I also feel that they can be used by those who are scared of snakes to properly catch snakes to be released far away from their neighborhoods or homes.
[/ rant off]
Let's just keep it civil guys. Education is best in cases like this.

Thanks,
Ian van Natter

IanV
12-19-2004, 03:06 AM
By the way, this was not a direct assault on anyone, I am just sharing my views. If you are offended by something I said, then feel free to contact me and we can talk through it off the forum.

Thanks!
Ian van Natter

Rockford
12-19-2004, 04:20 AM
(Though I am sure most of us are fine with it as long as it is not against the law in the area). With a little work, I feel the product could become as useful as a hook or tong. I also feel that they can be used by those who are scared of snakes to properly catch snakes to be released far away from their neighborhoods or homes.
[/ rant off]
Let's just keep it civil guys. Education is best in cases like this.

Thanks,
Ian van Natter

Dude.....What the hell are you talking about? I believe most of us don't eat snake or wear it for that matter. Defending this guy really makes you look like a snake killer yourself. He marketed this device to kill snakes. Nothing less.

Don't know what to say but you are wrong on posting this crap in here.

Bthacker

BriarpatchHerps
12-19-2004, 06:12 AM
To intentionaly seek out and kill animals for any reason other than self preservation or consumption is poaching regardless of the purpose or the legality of it.

Nowhere in any of these posts was it stated or insinuated people should threaten your friend so telling us here to "back off" isn't justified, do you see the irony in the two of you whining over threats of harm when neither of you have the slightest bit of concern for the animals his redneck contraption causes harm to? Be civil? What the hell do you consider civil about advertising the slaughter of creatures that have zero intentions of harming us?

And I seriously doubt anyone here is going to show any compassion to him after the marketing of that killing device you tried to pass off as a tool for capture or restraint. That POS was clearly posted on his website with full instructions on mounting iron scissor blades on it for the lone purpose of decapitation. Most serpents in the US fall under state or government protection, say for instance him, you or one of the twits that buys that junk lops off the head of an Indigo....will you have the right to cry then when the USFWS turns your ass inside out for committing a federal crime??

Animal lovers show sympathy to a poacher? lol Not in this lifetime chief.

Reptile Locators
12-19-2004, 08:56 AM
[/QUOTE]IanV (Though I am sure most of us are fine with it as long as it is not against the law in the area).

I live in a ranching community where devices like such are used to control varmints / predators and this device is not any different....IMO!
A reptile that gets caught up in it and if it is able to escape is not a lucky animal but yet another injured animal no different than a bobcat being caught in a snare! that suffers till it dies or the leg trap that it chews off it's own leg to escape! It is not a question of such devices being Legal within the area where it is used! but a question of the intent that it will be used is cruel! Where will it all stop? :shrug01:



[/QUOTE]IanV With a little work, I feel the product could become as useful as a hook or tong.

I have not ever seen or heard of a snake hook or tong's used for handling snakes....when used correctly........Injury or decapitate a reptile.


[/QUOTE]IanV I also feel that they can be used by those who are scared of snakes to properly catch snakes to be released far away from their neighborhoods or homes.

In most states and cities their are a number of herp societies with people that would come out and catch the reptile for someone who is scared of them their are usually numbers listed with the city/county of rescue people that specialize in the capture of wild life & reptiles that can be call upon to remove them safely.

Humans! Are the most cruel and dangerous animal on the face of the earth. it is sometimes the things people fear!...And don't understand that are the most beneficial to us all. "Snakes" with out them we could not exsist as a species.

Snakes don't hate people....people hate snakes! :slamit: Again where will it stop!

CTtrapper
12-19-2004, 09:32 AM
IanV,
I think most people here Would have a problem killing a snake for no reason, so I disagree big time there. I don't know of many reasons to kill a snake. I own a wildlife control buissness and tell all I come in contact with let a professional take it out and then look at your habitat that attracted the snake in the first place. Sorry , going off topic here, anyway I agree, no reason to send hatefull Emails but the ones I read here explaining why they are against the product are perfect. From what I can see, this device as you also stated after test would not be useful in moving snakes without harm.
I didn't see the site this late in the game, but from the description, it's pretty clear this is not a trap or snare in the sense of a set left to catch the snake but a devive to be used by a handler.
Reptile Locaters,
With all due respect, Animals do not chew there legs in a attempt to escape from a foot trap. The only animal that could gnaw on it's leg is a raccoon IF the wrong size trap was used. Those days are over. Please allow me to explain. With the proper size foot trap and anchoring of that trap, the Raccoon does and cannot chew it's leg. I say this out of past practical,real, experiance. Furthermore ,these animals in said traps are usually sleeping when the trapper arrives in the morning to check the trap.
Did you know that foot traps are used by state Wildlifre agencys in order to relocate animals such as Otter? ( Pound for pound a very tough, fighting type strong animal) with no damage to the otter for relocation purposes? Caught in foot traps and released in areas that the otter were no longer present. Very sucsessfully. Other animals such as a Coyote can not be caught by any other means..ie: cage traps. A rancher IMHO has the right to control Coyotes that are killing his stock and in fact if those coyotes are not controled, they will thrive,expand and some be out of control as they now are in certain areas.
Just wanted to state the facts, Thanks

Reptile Locators
12-19-2004, 10:22 AM
Reptile Locaters,
With all due respect, Animals do not chew there legs in a attempt to escape from a foot trap. The only animal that could gnaw on it's leg is a raccoon IF the wrong size trap was used. Those days are over. Please allow me to explain. With the proper size foot trap and anchoring of that trap, the Raccoon does and cannot chew it's leg. I say this out of past practical,real, experiance. Furthermore ,these animals in said traps are usually sleeping when the trapper arrives in the morning to check the trap.
Did you know that foot traps are used by state Wildlifre agencys in order to relocate animals such as Otter? ( Pound for pound a very tough, fighting type strong animal) with no damage to the otter for relocation purposes? Caught in foot traps and released in areas that the otter were no longer present. Very sucsessfully. Other animals such as a Coyote can not be caught by any other means..ie: cage traps. A rancher IMHO has the right to control Coyotes that are killing his stock and in fact if those coyotes are not controled, they will thrive,expand and some be out of control as they now are in certain areas.
Just wanted to state the facts, Thanks

CTtrapper,No disrespect to you But!

I will not dispute the proper use of the proper trap or size!
But not all are used in the right method and i have not yet seen or heard of a state trapper relocate any of the above mentiond most are just killed in the traps if they are found alive in it Here! with the exception of the otter i don't belive they are native here, But I do not want to get in to what I have seen in person from the improper use of traps. and i am not saying that you are wrong in any way just that things are different here. and not all here are state trappers with proper training of the use of such traps nor am i saying that a person does not have the rite to protect his live stock. and it all falls back to the education issue.

Vince
12-19-2004, 10:46 AM
I havent seen a snake snare trap, but is everyone also against rat traps? some times snakes get places and they need to be removed, like basements attics tool sheds ect. think about this, no matter how much people here love snakes, others go out of there way to remove snakes by useing fire arms, and I think there is a real need for a safe way to remove snakes that are nuisance animals. I am 100% for this thing being used as pest control , but 100% against its use for harvesting skin. ya just gotta look at it from both sides, take care everyone.

Vince
12-19-2004, 10:53 AM
by the way, instead of badgering this guy with hate e-mail, did anyone say you might do well if you also made a Have-a-heart style live trap for snakes?

nicolai
12-19-2004, 11:32 AM
I am 100% for this thing being used as pest control , but 100% against its use for harvesting skin. .

Then your saying you are for people killing snakes to get rid of them? You will find that most of the people here are against killing snakes for any reason what so ever. Why kill something when you can just relocate it or call someone to relocate it. There are lots of herp societies and such out there more then willing to come get a snake from someone rather then that person killing it. Destruction of habitat, wild collection, disease and other reasons take a big enough toll on reptiles, why should we knowingly kill a reptile just because of the fact we built our house on its habitat and it wondered into our house?

Does't make sense to me.

Nick Bonn

Vince
12-19-2004, 11:36 AM
Yeah I would never kill a snake that has come into the house, because I have the basic knowledge on how to catch and relocate the animal, and also know that they are beneficial animals. But most do not care and will blast away with guns and what not. I mean would you rather see them use a trap then to discharge firearms?

didnt I just read about someone who shot a snake and it ended up killing his brother who was home from the army?

snakepimp
12-19-2004, 11:39 AM
Vince, after reading the beginning of this thread, I cannot believe that you think this device was marketed or intended for anything but the killing of snakes.
the quotes from the defunct (HOORAY!) website say that it was designed for instant decapitation.

there are other ways of getting snakes out of a tight space, luring works sometimes, and seriously, if a snake is so well entrenched that a person (wildlife control or otherwise) can't retrieve it, then it is probably not even detectable by the resident in the first place.

For Chuck's sake, we're not in Africa, it's not like anybody's attic is infested with Mambas.

Any jerk who would put up quotes about "the only good snake is a dead snake," is a creep and should be run out of business with no mercy, in my still-enraged-even-though-his-site-is-gone opinion.
Down with Snake Snare.
I feel guilty about feeding rats, but not mice, so I am a hypocrite too...
Identifying one's own hypocrisy is liberating.

Vince
12-19-2004, 11:43 AM
I never seen where the guy selling the snake snares said the only good snake is a dead snake.what a moron!

but I still belive that a snake trap is the lesser of two evils when people are useing fire arms to shot snakes.

Tripple H Herps
12-19-2004, 12:00 PM
I agree with Vince when he says killing the snake with a firearm is more dangerous. However WHY kill the snake to begin with? Not just that in retrospect, the firearm would be more humane if the person was to kill the snake by a gun shot to the head. I do not believe in killing it for any reason what so ever. The only thing needed here is to educate the average person about snakes and there benefits to both the world and humans alike. I do not think we should be emailing the person with the snare threats or hate mail. However treating him kindly is almost impossible when you think about what he is marketing. In my own opinion and probably everyone else’s is that he is contributing to the constant war between snake and man. He is influencing people to continue to hate snakes and is just making it easier for them to get rid of that little harmless “pest.”
Thanks, Jim

ms_terese
12-19-2004, 12:01 PM
"SnakeSnare® is the least expensive engineered product in the industry for catching snakes. Perfect for neighborhoods, golf courses, and community locations where gunfire is impractical or illegal. SnakeSnare® can capture a snake for relocation but is designed for instant decapitation. Many neighborhoods feel that a good snake is a dead snake. Hunters use the SnakeSnare® to harvest valuable skins without damaging the snake by shotgun blast. The skin and meat are more saleable with instant decapitation."No, he said that many neighborhoods believe that. However, more relevant is the statement that the SnakeSnare *CAN* capture a snake but is *DESIGNED* for instant decapitation. The statements about it becoming a standard piece of handling equipment for snakekeepers, like a hook or tongs, is ridiculous.

Vince
12-19-2004, 12:09 PM
does anyone know exactly how this trap works? what exactly makes the snakes go into the trap? how could it be used to replace tongs ? how could it be used to capture snakes alive?

nicolai
12-19-2004, 12:13 PM
You made all those statement about this guys products and now you are asking how it works. Shouldn't you have researched it before you made statement on its usefulness and such?

Nick Bonn

nicolai
12-19-2004, 12:15 PM
its a pipe with a wire going up through the pipe which is pulled tite when pulled around the snakes neck instantly decapitating it. Does it still sound like a useful product to you??

Nick Bonn

CTtrapper
12-19-2004, 12:59 PM
will not dispute the proper use of the proper trap or size!
But not all are used in the right method and i have not yet seen or heard of a state trapper relocate any of the above mentiond most are just killed in the traps if they are found alive in it Here! with the exception of the otter i don't belive they are native here, But I do not want to get in to what I have seen in person from the improper use of traps. and i am not saying that you are wrong in any way just that things are different here. and not all here are state trappers with proper training of the use of such traps nor am i saying that a person does not have the rite to protect his live stock. and it all falls back to the education issue.
__________________


Thank You Randall,
I just wanted to state facts about the foot trap as it is commonly missrepresented. State wildife agancys are the ones who commonly relocate.

Stated licensed trappers do dispatch animals they trap, thats true. That is a whole other disscussion though but sufice to say Trapping is a Management tool of a Renewable resource.
Mass. voters found out how quick a beaver population can grow and the damage it can do when they voted through public ballott Referendum to outlaw trapping. These policies have failed wherever they have been passed. Trappers are needed and as in anything else, there are good and bad people in every walk of life. Trappers are no different. Also, anything including a car,knife or chainsaw can be missused.
Your right, Education is the key

Vince, you bring up some good questions.
To me, there are times to set a trap for a snake that can't be found after a through search. Generally up to 2 hours in a house. I don't use rat traps but if the need arises say in a day care or nurseing home, A glue trap made specifically for snakes can be used. The thing about them is they need to be checked daily so any snake caught can be released . This is done by using vegtable oil carefully where the snake is on the glue. It breaks the bond. the snake can then be cleaned off and relocated. These traps have a glue line in a v pattern in them so it's not like a mouse or rat board where the whole surface is glue. I woulden't use them in a house if I didn't have to though. Another option is a minnow trap or similar trap with a one way opening. these are placed along walls. A gun is never ness. in my opinion to use on a snake. Just my .02

Suncoast Herpetological
12-19-2004, 12:59 PM
Vince

The only way this device could coneivably be used for relocation would be to control the amount of pressure used when tightening the noose. Since this would still put a sharp metal wire against the animals neck it would be ridiculously imprecise at best.

This device was designed to decapitate snakes and for no other reason plain and simple. While I agree that threatening Emails to the manufacturer are out of line, I am firmly behind inundating him with as many civilly worded negative Emails.

I personally forwarded a link to his website to PETA, the SPCA and the Humane Society the day this thread was started. Wouldn't it be a coup to get those three to work in the industy's favor for once?.

CTtrapper
12-19-2004, 01:05 PM
As others have already stated, there is no advantage with this product over tongs. And in that regard it isn't as good.
It is not a trap in any sense of the imagination.

Python Dreams
12-19-2004, 02:14 PM
First off I would like to say that I donot agree with this product or the killing of snakes due to lack of education or fear. But, I feel it is just as bad to send threats to anyone who is operating a legal business. If you have any problem with what he is doing then try to pass laws to stop it. Does not give you the right to become a Peta-esque terrorrist. Just shows you for a serious wackjob that should be locked up.
Nicolai,
What statements did Vince make about this guys product? He made some comments about how he views why people might use it, or have a need to remove snakes. Not everyone views snakes the same way we do. Do you allow feild mice or rats to live in your house? Do you allow ants or other pests or insects to roam your home because you happened to place your home in their environment? What animals can we kill because they are invading our properties? Personally I would happily walk over and pick up any snake that I came in contact with to remove it to a safer place, BUT... Some people fear snakes and some, due to religous stories, feel that they are downright evil. Do you know that quite a few people kill fish, bear, coyotes, deer, and all types of animals all just for fun. In fact their are companies that make fishing poles and hunting rifles strictly for the killing of animals. I don't mean to alert anyone, but I hope this doesnt lead to threatening emails to Remington or any of those comapnies...
Tom Baker

Tripple H Herps
12-19-2004, 02:45 PM
Not everyone views snakes the same way we do.
- Well not everyone has as much brain capacity as we do either. So should that make it right for them to go off killing the more intelligent class?

Do you allow ants or other pests or insects to roam your home because you happened to place your home in their environment?
-If there was a very large ant problem in my house I would exterminate them. However, spiders, an other problematic bugs I simply place outside. Maybe thats because I think they are beneficial creatures?

Some people fear snakes and some, due to religous stories, feel that they are downright evil.
-Please do not get me started on the religious non sense. I do not want to express my views of religion on this forum, as it would only start a pissing match on something completely different. However I understand what you are saying. All I have to say is that those people are stupid as sh*t to believe a snake is evil, & since we all know that they are not. Why should we defend there incorrect and illogical belief??

In fact their are companies that make fishing poles and hunting rifles strictly for the killing of animals.
-I personally do not hunt or kill any animals (except fish). However your point is completely understood. I only think those companies will be getting threatening emails from PETA....etc. Not us. I eat meat and like it. I think the sport of just killing animals for fun is kind of ridiculous. The useless killing is stupid, if the hunter or whatever wants to eat the meat he harvests or is killing to control a population growth then that is another story.

Tripple H Herps
12-19-2004, 02:51 PM
First off I would like to say that I donot agree with this product or the killing of snakes due to lack of education or fear. But, I feel it is just as bad to send threats to anyone who is operating a legal business.
- I forgot to mention. I agree on not sending threats to this person. It only makes you look just as bad. I am glad you do not agree with the fact of killing snakes. However any defense of this product is shameful.
Thanks, Jim

BriarpatchHerps
12-19-2004, 02:54 PM
I havent seen a snake snare trap, but is everyone also against rat traps?

Rodents fall under self preservation, I've never heard of a snake chewing up a bag of dog food, chew up stored items for nesting, completely over run an entire residence, pass along plagues and viruses to man and domesticated animals. Snakes may be predators but rodents are a million times more destructive and dangerous to man. Australia is home to seven of the most lethal snakes known to man but the two animals that cause more death, damage and grief to human populations and domesticated animals are rodents and feral dogs.

Anyone can remove two things from their property and they'll most likely never see another snake on it ever! Remove cluttered up junk that the serpents use for housing and store food items in a method that eliminates rodents ie:dog food, grain, farm stock feed
Lacking food and shelter the targeted animal of choice has ZERO need to be on your property. My families home is surrounded by woods and has a creek less than 40ft from the house, the property's been ours for more than fifty years and snakes are occasionally seen but have never got into the house or became a problem of any sort.

I've had snakes escape from racks and cages over the years and have a super high tech capture technique, much too expensive for the average person to afford.

A stiff cardboard box with an X cut for a entrance, gently fold the tabs inward to slightly open the center of the X and set it up where you expect the snake to be with a mouse inside a ventilated plastic container in the box. The snake will come in hunting and wont try to leave as long as he's this close >< to food and if he tries it's still not possible for the animal to reverse the flaps and push his way out. The X will also prevent a snake from going half way in and backing out, try it with your finger on an old box to understand the concept - it works along the same principle as Chinese handcuffs.

I would hate to see the day come that I had to rip off an animals head because I couldn't outsmart it.

Rockford
12-19-2004, 04:35 PM
Rodents fall under self preservation, I've never heard of a snake chewing up a bag of dog food, chew up stored items for nesting, completely over run an entire residence, pass along plagues and viruses to man and domesticated animals. Snakes may be predators but rodents are a million times more destructive and dangerous to man. Australia is home to seven of the most lethal snakes known to man but the two animals that cause more death, damage and grief to human populations and domesticated animals are rodents and feral dogs.

Anyone can remove two things from their property and they'll most likely never see another snake on it ever! Remove cluttered up junk that the serpents use for housing and store food items in a method that eliminates rodents ie:dog food, grain, farm stock feed
Lacking food and shelter the targeted animal of choice has ZERO need to be on your property. My families home is surrounded by woods and has a creek less than 40ft from the house, the property's been ours for more than fifty years and snakes are occasionally seen but have never got into the house or became a problem of any sort.



You just saved me from typing.

Vince-

Your posts really are "off" especially coming from someone that keeps herps. If you would have seen the website before it was brought down then you might understand and have a different opinion, hopefully.

People just need to be educated on snakes. What to do if encountered? Who to call? etc. I hate to see innocent animals killed. It is up to people like us to do the educating. Whether it's with co-workers, neighborhood kids, classrooms, etc. I believe it is getting better.
I live in California and Mountain Lions will attack folks and the media will say that the mountain lions came down into our territory and know they have to be killed. If we keep encroaching on wild animals territories than we really should learn what we are living next to.

This snake snare guy is just promoting ignorance and should be stopped!

Happy Holidays!!

Bthacker

Vince
12-19-2004, 04:47 PM
the factor is that only people with some sort of interest in snakes will pay attention to the educators. I do not agree with killing snakes I just understand the need for this thing as an alternative to people who use fire arms. I am not one sided. as far as your comment that "he must be stopped" you seem to feel very strongly so how about instead of trying to stop him you come up with an idea for a safe live snake removal trap? or an educational web page or downloadable info sheet on how to trap and remove a nuisances snake, that seems like a more logical approach then a crusade against someone who is selling something that some people may have a practical need for.

Rockford
12-19-2004, 05:28 PM
Vince-

If you are dumb enough to cause harm to yourself or someone else with a firearm for shooting a defenseless snake then that my friend is what Darwinism is all about. What's worse a dummy with a gun or Rattlesnake at a distance? I don't think anyone is going to carry a snakesnare in their back pocket and bust it out when they most need it!!!

A "practical" need? Someone could get bit by a Rattlesnake using one of these things. Or a harmless snake can be killed. Did you see the website?

And yes I try and teach everyone that I can that snakes aren't really all that bad and shouldn't be considered a nuisance but an animal that is necessary for a balanced ecosystem.

Give me and everyone else a break!!!!

Bthacker

BryonsBoas
12-19-2004, 05:54 PM
Somehow I don't think the snare would be able to determine the difference between protected/endangered species from non-endangered. If you used it and killed a protected species wouldn't that get the owner in a buttload of trouble ? Not to mention that species is down by one from stupidity.

jenexotic
12-19-2004, 06:41 PM
So if you think this is ok, then what about cats? I know some people cannot stand cats and think that they are evil,so it should be ok to decapitate them right? How fast do you think that you would be in jail if you killed a cat? And as for leg traps my baby kitten was caught in one of those a few years back so don't tell me about them being safe because they are not to all animals. My snakes are my pets and if anyone ttried to hurt my pets because they didn't like them then they would be sorry!!!

Karen Hulvey
12-19-2004, 06:55 PM
Humans! Are the most cruel and dangerous animal on the face of the earth. it is sometimes the things people fear!...And don't understand that are the most beneficial to us all. "Snakes" with out them we could not exsist as a species.

Snakes don't hate people....people hate snakes! :slamit: Again where will it stop!

I agree wholeheartedly w/the above statement. When someone who is afraid of snakes sees one, why can't they just WALK AWAY?
It blows my mind to think that humans are supposed to be the smartest living things on earth yet sooo stupid when it comes to wildlife.

jenexotic
12-19-2004, 07:04 PM
AMEN! :hot:

BriarpatchHerps
12-19-2004, 08:16 PM
Someone killing a Rattlesnake because they see it on their land in my opinion is poaching, if a guys horse has one in its stall or his dog corners one that's a completely different story.

That device is NOT a tool, it's a weapon. A weapon is defined by its intended use being to kill or injure something, when a blade was incorperated into the design of that thing it lost ALL potential for being a usefull "tool".

Many years ago our forefathers realized the uselessness of trying to educate rednecks, hillbillies and bible bangers so they devised two methods of control - One is the law that's used to deter all of those whose ways can't be changed and the second is school that's used to educate the young before their minds become warped and twisted with back asswards age old tradition and beliefs. There are plenty of country folks and religious types that know to appreciate the natural world around them and that everything we as individuals have no need for doesn't need to be destroyed - for those outside that realm of intellectual thinking there are groups opposed to their actions who speak up to keep them in check.

There is not one single species of animal that has a deep seated hatred for man or that takes every chance it can to attack man but the threatened and endangered species lists prove that man is destructive and often don't try to change until it's too late.

Anytime people don't like something, understand it or are afraid of it for whatever reason they want to kill it. Whether it's a guy using SnakeSnare because his momma taught him snakes were the devils army or it's fifteen rednecks flushing Rattlers from their den with diesle fuel because Jeb will pay $3.00 for every Rattler hide -IT'S WRONG, PERIOD!

Tripple H Herps
12-19-2004, 08:31 PM
William- You just said EXACTLY what I was thinking. Thank you.

IanV
12-19-2004, 10:18 PM
No, he said that many neighborhoods believe that. However, more relevant is the statement that the SnakeSnare *CAN* capture a snake but is *DESIGNED* for instant decapitation. The statements about it becoming a standard piece of handling equipment for snakekeepers, like a hook or tongs, is ridiculous.
First off, a similar design is already in use by many people. So maybe a little ducation on the subject is in order here.
And it is NOT a trap. This is in no way a trap! Come on people, brighten up a little. It is similar to most snare poles used by animal control. I have used it many times to move rattlesnakes when I have not had a hook available for whatever reasons. It caused absolutely no harm to the rattlesnakes, and all were relocated sucessfully.

For those that piss a fit about a snake dying, do you care about deer or elk dying? I would assume that most of us here hunt in some way, and some people hunt rattlesnakes. Is it right? In some cases, yes. I don't believe in the mass killing of roundups, but I also feel people have the right to kill a rattlesnake if they feel the need.
I can't believe that you have the nerve to call me a redneck, when most of you are the most arrogant, uninformed people I have ever had to meet.

Ian van Natter

IanV
12-19-2004, 10:23 PM
Vince

The only way this device could coneivably be used for relocation would be to control the amount of pressure used when tightening the noose. Since this would still put a sharp metal wire against the animals neck it would be ridiculously imprecise at best.

This device was designed to decapitate snakes and for no other reason plain and simple. While I agree that threatening Emails to the manufacturer are out of line, I am firmly behind inundating him with as many civilly worded negative Emails.

I personally forwarded a link to his website to PETA, the SPCA and the Humane Society the day this thread was started. Wouldn't it be a coup to get those three to work in the industy's favor for once?.
At least in the 6 he sent me, it is NOT a sharp metal wire pulled against the neck. In fact, you would have to pull pretty hard on it to even brake skin on most reptiles. Like I have already pointed out, I have relocated rattlesnakes with Snake Snares many times, and all were not harmful to the snake. Had the DWR been called in, the snake would have been killed immediatley.

Ian van Natter

IanV
12-19-2004, 10:26 PM
Also, as for showing this thread to PeTa. I hate to inform you, but you are just adding fire to their anti reptile policy. They are as against us keeping reptiles and they are against people owning ANY animal what so ever.
I still find it amazing that John and I are the ignorant ones here. At least we aren't the ones sending death threats through the internet.

Ian van Natter

IanV
12-19-2004, 10:36 PM
http://tongs.com/shop/index.php?GrID=31&PrID=32
Wow, look at that. A company we all love makes a product that is the exact same! Why isn't everone threatening Midwest?
Come on people, some people do not like snakes and they have every right not to like snakes. Why I dont like this for killing snakes (as I have discussed with John when he first contacted me), this is useful for moving snakes as well. I actually prefer it for moving rattlesnakes (which is illegal in Utah, but it beats them being killed by an officer) to my hook since I am able to stay farther away from the venomous end of the snake.

Ian van Natter

IanV
12-19-2004, 10:50 PM
And before this gets even more out of hand:
I mean no disrespect to ANYONE involved in this thread and I in no way mean anything as a personaly insult (unless I actually name you, in which case I would mean it ;) )
I think some of your opinions are over the top, but I have a feeling I am viewed the same way. :cool:
Just know this about the product: I am doing what I can to make this a safe and useful tool for people to remove snakes without harm. While I have eaten rattlersnake before, I don't really think people should be out killing them for no reason at all (being scared falls into the no reason category). Like I have said many times, I have used this to (illegally) relocate rattlesnakes here in Utah so they avoid being killed. (It is against the law here in utah to touch a rattler)
While I still rely on my hook, I won't hesitate to use the snare if I have to.
And so people can understand this: I do not kill the snakes. ALL are relocated safely. I also do not condone people going out to kill snakes for any reason what so ever.
As most have stated, polite emails pointing out why this is wrong would have been best, and I am sure almost everyone did send polite ones. But some also sent threatening letters, which has no place in any society.

ms_terese
12-19-2004, 10:51 PM
http://tongs.com/shop/index.php?GrID=31&PrID=32
Wow, look at that. A company we all love makes a product that is the exact same! Why isn't everone threatening Midwest?Let's look at that page, shall we? It's advertised as a snare for cats, dogs, and reptiles like lizards and small alligators. It's not advertised as an instrument designed to decapitate. He's not marketing to people wanting to relocate snakes. He's marketing to people who want to kill them for being a nuisance, period. Spin it any way you want, but the verbage on his website indicates just that.

Don't lump every thread poster in with people who are sending death threats via email. I doubt that many of the posters in this thread have done that. Whatever threats were received should be reported and dealt with accordingly.

Just as you feel that people have a right to kill snakes if they want to, admit that others have the right to protest that as loudly and as energetically as they wish. You didn't answer the question put to you about cats....would it be alright, in your opinion, for people who don't like cats to decapitate them too?

I'm grateful that I live in a state in which all native snakes are protected....you know, Missouri, where all the rednecks are?

Suncoast Herpetological
12-19-2004, 10:52 PM
Take a good look as well as a good read Ian. It's not the same product at all. I saw the pic on the "Snakesnare". It had a thin wire that would lend itself to the slicing of reptilian necks. The Midwest product is truly designed as a snare. It has a 1/4 inch cablew / wire. That is more than large enough to be used with care and not do permanent damage to the target animal.

In addition, they are not marketing it as a reptilian guillotine.

There is absolutely no defense for either this product or the inventor's callous marketing claims.....give it up.

WebSlave
12-19-2004, 10:59 PM
All things considered, I felt that this particular thread would be more appropriate in the Consumer Reports category rather then the BOI. Not that I believe that many people here will actually try out this device, however.

ms_terese
12-19-2004, 10:59 PM
And before this gets even more out of hand:Ian, it seems we were typing at the same time.

I understand that you are not personally involved in the useless killing of snakes, and that you see that the SnakeSnare may have some valid uses.

Here's my argument: the seller of the product is marketing it as a tool to kill unwanted snakes for inane reasons. (He lists some of the inane reasons on his website, which I won't bother to copy and paste again.)

Most people who find that a wrong thing to do would not support the business. Those who are truly offended by it would likely do what some snake lovers here are doing: blasting the man with emails explaining why his product and the marketing of it are so offensive.

That doesn't make anyone here uneducated, ignorant, or a redneck.

Rockford
12-19-2004, 11:00 PM
First off, a similar design is already in use by many people. So maybe a little ducation on the subject is in order here.
And it is NOT a trap. This is in no way a trap! Come on people, brighten up a little. It is similar to most snare poles used by animal control. I have used it many times to move rattlesnakes when I have not had a hook available for whatever reasons. It caused absolutely no harm to the rattlesnakes, and all were relocated sucessfully.

For those that piss a fit about a snake dying, do you care about deer or elk dying? I would assume that most of us here hunt in some way, and some people hunt rattlesnakes. Is it right? In some cases, yes. I don't believe in the mass killing of roundups, but I also feel people have the right to kill a rattlesnake if they feel the need.
I can't believe that you have the nerve to call me a redneck, when most of you are the most arrogant, uninformed people I have ever had to meet.

Ian van Natter

Wow! Ian- I have no problem with Elk or Deer being hunted for meat or sport to control the herds. What kind of need would there be for killing a rattlesnake? Maybe if you were starving in the desert and had nothing else to eat. Have you ever eaten rattlesnake? I haven't had the need to but there really isn't a whole lot of meat to them.

I believe that most folks here wouldn't have a problem with the snake snare if it was marketed for the reasons that you are pointing out. However it was not. That's real sweet that you are defending your buddy but there are other designs to steal from and make money when it comes to animal control. This one was described as being particularly harmful to a snakes life. I am not sure if you are aware that this is a herp forum that you are posting on but it is. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah......Tired of typing common sense. It doesn't work when people just don't get it. Oh...Not all of us send threatening e-mails either.

Have fun with your six(6) snakesnares. Keeping them yourself or are they Christmas gifts for all your friends and family? Starting your own Utah Rattlesnake Roundup? Yee-Haw!!!


Happy Holidays!! :santa:

Bthacker

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:01 PM
Terese, I dont believe in people decapitating any animal for no reason. If someone was actually going to eat that cat, and it was there cat-more power to them. I also posted that I do not lump every poster in with the ones sending threats, and I want to make sure that everyone realizes that. I am sure 99% of the people here are good people with differing opinions.
I have been working with John to get this product changed for quite some time now. The prototype he sent me was the exact same as the midwest snare. The exact same. No thin wires. In fact, compared to the midwest snare, the snake snare has a THICKER rubber coated wire.

Suncoast, you obviously did not look at the product closely. I have 4 here that I can look at any time. There is no thick wire, and no way for it to actually decapitate a snake the way it is currently made.
At one time, this was being marketed to skin hunters and people in the roundups. But now it is bein redesigned as herp. tool that is designed not to hurt snakes. The Midwest design is the exact same as the SnakeSnare, spin it anyway YOU want, they are the same.

Ian

Rockford
12-19-2004, 11:08 PM
Ian-

Since it's being re-marketed as a herp tool. Who is going to buy from your buddy in the herp community after his website was selling it as a snake killing device? Selling it to folks who frequent round-ups? Come on get real!!!! Do you think we are stupid? Quit the nonsense and the contraditions.:idea:

Bthacker

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:10 PM
Breck
You say I am the ignorant one here? Thats a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As for my 6 snake snares, I currently have 4 and gave two to local wildlife officers to use that they promised NOT to kill the snakes.
John and I have never met. He lives thousands of miles away from me, next door to my cousin. Thats how we know each other. We have sent emails back and forth a few times, but other than that I do not know him from Adam. I also have eated rattlesnake before, 2 times to be exact. One was a scout camp back when i was about 14, and the other was at a Brazilian restaurant. Chewy and full of little bones, I don't know why you would want to eat it but some people also eat snails.
It's funny that I am the one called the red-neck in this case when it was people like you that cannot see beyond your little window. While I agree with you believe it or not, I also think that people have every right to kill a snake if they deem it necessary. Make all the moral judgements against it you like, but please refrain from calling me a redneck when you know nothing about me.
I am not sure if you are aware that this is a herp forum that you are posting on but it is
Wow....that must be what I am doing wrong. Obviously I know nothing about snakes. Get a grip on reality. People don't share your viewpoint, get over it.

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:13 PM
Ian-

Since it's being re-marketed as a herp tool. Who is going to buy from your buddy in the herp community after his website was selling it as a snake killing device? Selling it to folks who frequent round-ups? Come on get real!!!! Do you think we are stupid? Quit the nonsense and the contraditions.:idea:

Bthacker
Actually, quite a few people have bought them instead of the midwest snare. Hell, to save 40-60 bucks, who wouldn't. Do I think you are stupid, why yes I think you do fit in that category. You know nothing about the product, just a few lines from a website that was out of date when you read it in the first place. I think you are the one spilling the nonsence. I am trying to educate people, you are too busy labeling others and implying your moral judgement where it is not needed.

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:23 PM
Dang it, now I feel bad for calling you stupid and a redneck.
How do I go back and edit my posts? I can't figure it out?

I do however think most of you are seeing only one side of the fence, but that is neither a crime or a reason for name calling on either side.

As for the Missouri comment earlier, I had quite a few relatives ran out of the state and some even killed just for joining a certain religion, so I can't believe they are the most level-headed state :P ;) (It's a joke....I plan on heading out that way for Med. School in a few years anway)

Rockford
12-19-2004, 11:25 PM
Breck
You say I am the ignorant one here? Thats a little like the pot calling the kettle black. As for my 6 snake snares, I currently have 4 and gave two to local wildlife officers to use that they promised NOT to kill the snakes.
John and I have never met. He lives thousands of miles away from me, next door to my cousin. Thats how we know each other. We have sent emails back and forth a few times, but other than that I do not know him from Adam. I also have eated rattlesnake before, 2 times to be exact. One was a scout camp back when i was about 14, and the other was at a Brazilian restaurant. Chewy and full of little bones, I don't know why you would want to eat it but some people also eat snails.
It's funny that I am the one called the red-neck in this case when it was people like you that cannot see beyond your little window. While I agree with you believe it or not, I also think that people have every right to kill a snake if they deem it necessary. Make all the moral judgements against it you like, but please refrain from calling me a redneck when you know nothing about me.

Wow....that must be what I am doing wrong. Obviously I know nothing about snakes. Get a grip on reality. People don't share your viewpoint, get over it.

Hey Pal-

I never called you a redneck for one. Whether or not you are a redneck that is your business. READ MY POSTS!

I have a feeling alot more folks share my viewpoints than your very little thought out points of an attempt at selling your buddy's ill-marketed product. Please feel free to read through the thread again. It might help a little.

One more thing....Why is your buddy's website down? Snake's hibernating? If I was a smart business man I would think Christmas would be a great time of the year for sales?

WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!

Bthacker

Rockford
12-19-2004, 11:33 PM
Calling me stupid and a redneck? I will forgive you on that one. I don't take any offense only because I know who I am.

All I am doing is saying my peace. That is my right as an American and I am sharing my viewpoints without calling people names. Please read your posts. You make many contradictions that i don't feel like quoting and pointing out. Look at your buddy's website. If he ever get's it back up and you will see what I am so passionate about how I feel. There is no need for killing snakes. This tool was marketed as such. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from calling me a stupid redneck again.

Thanks-

Bthacker

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:43 PM
You keep refering to him as if we are best friends. I also have never once made an attempt to sell the product.
I do however point out where you are wrong. In fact, I have been talking to John who is currently changing the website since he has "seen the light" if you wish to say. He took the website down because someone from this thread is contacting him with threads, and hacking his site.
Christmas would be the time to sales, but even I would not recommend he sell the product as it is. It does need some more work to make it safer. I do not like the thick rubber coated wire, and I have suggested putting some sort of a wider peice of metal or something, to help avoid rib injuries.
I also apologized for coming off as a jackass, and I hope you will accept it. If not, that is your problem and not mine.
As for the opinion, I have a feeling we are closer to 50/50 on the subject. I have received both the death threat emails, and the emails from people who dont want to get involved but have no problem killing snakes (again, I do not share that viewpoint. I do not kill anything for any reason. In fact, I am the only one around here nice enough to use Hav a hart traps to catch coons, skunks and cats that get in and kill our birds. Most shoot them or poison them with antifreeze).
I understand you are passionate about herps. I am as well, though we come from different "Herp Schools". I have literally been around and kept herps my entire 23 short years. I also have a job in which I deal with professional herpetologists and hobbyists like you and I on a daily basis.
You say there is no reason to kill a snake, and I agree. But as an American, I can recognize that some people have those views and though I feel they are wrong, they can kill them if they feel the need. Thats where education comes into play. Poeple around here know I will come and get anything they need taken care of, but how many people have that available? My grandfather was a great guy, but would kill any rattlesnake on our ranch because they killed the occasional cow. Was he wrong for doing so? I don't think so, but they also didn't have people that would remove them back then. I actually know a few people who enjoy rattlesnake as well, and so if they want to go kill one for them to cook and eat, then they are welcome to do so if they so believe.
While I do not believe in it, I do not feel that it is the worst thing to happen as long as it is within all the boundaries of the law. If it is an endangered species, then of course fry them. I would rather see the snake removed peacefully, but I do not think we will ever get to the point that some people will not be deathly afraid of snakes and want them off their property alive or dead.

Ian

reptilebreeder
12-19-2004, 11:45 PM
Vince

I personally forwarded a link to his website to PETA, the SPCA and the Humane Society the day this thread was started. Wouldn't it be a coup to get those three to work in the industy's favor for once?.

NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:48 PM
It WAS marketed as such. I have been doing my part on educating, and from what I understand, quite a few other level headed individuals contacted John with the same problems I have had with the product since day one. I am waiting to hear back from John about something he said in an email I would like to post here, which may help clear up some misconceptions.
This device will no longer be for killing snakes, and thanks to those who have sent emails pointing out corrections and misconceptions. I know more people have sent polite emails rather than threatening ones, and that has made the world of difference in this case. Suddenly, it wasn;t just me and some friends pointing out our feelings, it was 100's of well intentioned Herpers who hate to see snakes needlesly die.

IanV
12-19-2004, 11:51 PM
NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

John, thank you for that well thought our and well written post. You have put across some ideas that I have not been able to, thank you. I also abhor the rattlesnake roundups, but we need to fight this with education rather than trying to join ranks with PeTA or getting so upset over something that we are not able to have a level conversation. It has been amazing to me to see some of the changes that have come across from people who are angry at the idea of killing snakes in ignorance, but who are well spoken and polite enough that they are able to get the point across and actually educated people. This thread so far has not been able to educate anyone (and I am at fault as much as anyone else).

Rockford
12-19-2004, 11:59 PM
Back peddling. That's what I call it. Anyone else have a word or phrase for it?Maybe I'm just an ignorant, stupid redneck. You have learned nothing Ian. And you haven't educated anyone on anything. Quit trying to play the nice guy all of a sudden. You are not as smart as you are trying to portray yourself. Sorry but you lose.

Bthacker

Suncoast Herpetological
12-20-2004, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by John Kellar

NO.You think they would stop there? all 3 of those groups are against keeping of any reptiles WHATSOEVER.
I can understand everyone being a little heated (if not hypocritical ie. Hunting deer for sport-ok, Rattlesnakes-not). but, anybody ever heard of the saying "be careful what you wish for"? PETA is the LAST, I repeat LAST organization "we" need to go to when "we" have a problem. We should solve our problems, in house, and by trying to educate as many people as we can. The fact that they may go after the website, does not erase or even begin to nullify even one little iota, the fact that they are the worst threat to us, and anybody who wants to keep ANY animals PERIOD.

Before everybody jumps on me, I abhor Rattlesnake roundups, but, until we can get things changed it is legal. I also have little tolerance for those who kill snakes out of ignorance. I just think this thread is getting a little too heated and we would do better to educate and act civilly, lest we be judged no better than the people who try to keep use from keeping animals.

Point taken John but the links were sent anonymously, not with any plea for help to the industry. I normally stay as far away from all three of them as possible but, in this instance, I truly think it was a good idea. While they do not condone the keeping of animals and are a constant thorn in all of our sides, they are far more focused on animal cruelty Especially the SPCA.

Tim Cole
12-20-2004, 12:29 AM
Having been one of the original people to post on this thread I am disapointed to see it digressing as it is.
I have been doing snake calls for most of my life. I was an Animal Control Officer for over 5 years. I was also a State Permitted Reptile Rehabilitator for over 10 years. I have also been training Animal Control Officers and Park Rangers for over 15 years in snake identification and safe capture techniques. Safe for the humans and safe for the snake. I deal with venomous and non-venomous in my State Certified training classes. The officers are issued a Standard Catch Pole to use in a variety of situations. Since this may be the only thing they have to work with I showed them how to use it properly with large snakes only (6ft +)! IT IS NOT FOR CAPTURING BUT TO SAFELY GUIDE IT TO A CONTAINER! You cannot restrain a large snake on this pole. It will crawl through the loop and probably injure itself, choke, or break bones. After I showed the department a pair of tongs and how they worked, they outfitted all of the officers with a pair of tongs after I trained them on the proper use. Even the Midwest site does not mention them for SNAKES!
I am also surprised that no one has mentioned the commercially made snake funnel traps or glueboards. Bill Horn's description of a cardboard box trap is great and works with the same principle as the funnel trap. Glueboards are my last resort but work well without injury if monitered. The board is placed along the baseboard and the snake sticks to it as it is crawling. The trap needs to be checked frequently so the snake can be released from the glue as quickly as possible. This is accomplished by soaking the glueboard in shallow cooking oil. This releases the snake in a matter of a few minutes with minimal harm. Sometimes it might lose a scale or two.
Ian,
I agree that threats are not appropriate, but this site is made up of snake lovers and some of us get passionate over this kind of subject. Don't expect any support from this sites readers for a tool that is made to decapitate a snake! Had the website not promoted this act we probably would not be as upset as we are. The picture you are painting is far different from the website toting the tool. I did see and read the site before it went down.

From an EDUCATED snake enthusiast, :bandhead0

IanV
12-20-2004, 12:56 AM
Are you saying I am not an educated snake enthusiast, because my views do not align with yours? I guarantee I deal with more professional herpetologists than most here, on a daily basis. Everyone from Animal PLanet hosts, to professors at the local universities. I know a thing or two about herps.
You yourself have used catch poles in the same manner I have. I agree, I think there is too much risk to breaking a rib, but if I am not comfortable with whatever other tool I have, I will use a snakesnare before I let DWR shoot and kill the rattlesnake (Well, they usually just throw a big ass rock on it).
I know you saw the site before it went down, I did as well. I saw it before it was brought up in the thread and I expressed my opinion that it would cause controversey and I could not support it.
Considering I am the ONLY one on this thread who has any correspondence with John, or has even seen a snake snare in real life, maybe some of you should smarten up. This product is not, any longer, designed for killing snakes. It once was, and I did not like it either. It is now being designed to safely remove snakes.
Since everyone here is so intent on condoning something that hasn't been made in the last 8 months, maybe you should do a little field work and actually talk to the company before pissing a fit. The thread started out great and quickly went to hell, and I am as much to blame as anyone else. Had people been more intent on education rather than condoning something they really don't know about, this would have never had caused any problems.
Bthacker, you are welcome to call it whatever you want. Why do I have to backpedal to try to impress you or something? Frankly, I think your opinion is pure crap and you know nothing about this product let alone how the real world works. If me trying to be "nice" is a problem, then you are welcome to leave this thread as much as anyone else. I was just trying to make sure tempers didn't fly, but I guess being that mature is above you.
Next time, maybe you should talk to the person who owns the website before everyone starts pitching fits all of a sudden. Again, I am the ONLY person who has posted here that has any sort of dealing with John, and who has seen the snare in person.

IanV
12-20-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by John Kellar



Point taken John but the links were sent anonymously, not with any plea for help to the industry. I normally stay as far away from all three of them as possible but, in this instance, I truly think it was a good idea. While they do not condone the keeping of animals and are a constant thorn in all of our sides, they are far more focused on animal cruelty Especially the SPCA.

John, anonymously is better than not I guess. If Peta was just against animal cruelty, most would have no problem with it. But unfortunately they want to take away our pets...
I don't think it was a great idea, but it is better than nothing I guess. I just fear this will add some more to their anti-herpetoculture campaign.
The SPCA however, as far as I know, is till a pretty clean organization and I see no problem in contacting them in this case.
Seeing as killing certain snakes is not against the law in most areas, they do not have a leg to stand on though. Here in Utah however, it is illegal to kill a garter, but you can kill a rattlesnake and no one cares (you also need a 30 dollar permit to keep garters, go figure). It's sad really. If I compare the decapitation to the gasoline though, I would have to say the decapitation is somewhat more humane (though severly messed up). I would love if the roundups were gone, but I dont think it will stop people from killing rattlesnakes in mass numbers.
Ian

IanV
12-20-2004, 01:15 AM
This was my last communication with John tonight. He did not grant me permission to post this yet, but I am sure he will see no problems as long as it helps clear the air

For the record, the two day e-mail flood did
educate me to many corrections to the representation of the SnakeSnare
and the website will be back up in the spring with more accurate and
descriptive content.

I am amazed at the anger of some people, angry that the World isn't
exactly as they want it to be and hostile towards those who don't share
their philosophy.

In all fairness, I did warn against keeping that decapitation thing on the website.
However, many in this thread do not have a working concept of the idea, and in fact, have never seen the product or have any communication with John.
As for the emails, hell if you can help add to the education I wouldn't tell you to stop. The world needs to know that snakes aren't scary (and we need to understand people are going to be scared of snakes and we shouldn't push our ideals on them).

BriarpatchHerps
12-20-2004, 02:57 AM
Here's how I see it.....ANY changes made to his website or weapon has been for one reason and one reason only, to save his own ass and protect his income. If the man never had a problem killing animals or making a living from selling people weapons to kill animals he still doesn't. Someone doesn't suddenly find humanity, compassion and the intellect to "see the light" because they took a long hard look at their actions - it takes YEARS to become who we are and just as long if not longer to make major changes. One day he supports slaying animals and the next day he doesn't? BS bud, who the hell do you think you're kidding?

Let's brainstorm for a moment shall we? If a noosed pole is such a dandy "tool" for safely controlling serpents then why do so many imported Chondros, Cobras, Pythons and Monitors arrive with neck lacerations, burns, broken vertibra and ribs?? I know of at least a dozen large Retics and Cobras that were advertised in the classifieds as LTC and STILL had a scar around their neck, crooked spine and the Cobras had broken ribs in their hoods that prevented it from fully opening. In every similar injury there's two common factors 1) A noose that supplys enough pressure to crush 2) Some dumbass on the other end yanking on it like he's trying to start a lawnmower.

In your pals case those two factors didn't sell enough SnakeSnares so for the love of money he added a BLADE and proceeded to market the POS as a weapon to KILL.

Mace is a good example of a self defense item, it's small, powerful and carried by postal carriers to keep dogs off them. Until I see a pair of Levis with pockets deep enough to accomidate a 48" long pole that damn thing was never designed for self protection, it was built for one purpose and that's because he knew Jeb and Cleatus would snatch those things up to use at the roundups.

It's only takes the understanding of simple physics to realize grasping a struggling creature with a cord covering no more than a one inch wide area is going to cause damage and be painful. If you're honestly dim enough to believe a noosed pole isn't painful and lethal lie on the floor and have a friend drag your ass around the house with one around your wrist.

And NO, people do NOT have the right to kill something "Because they see fit" to do so, most people can't make a split second decision at the Burger King Drive Thru let alone be given the right to "kill anything they wish".

Seamus Haley
12-20-2004, 07:57 AM
Ehhhh...

A few people here... not everyone but a few very clearly... seem to be mixing up a few issues. There's the ethical question of when and if it's okay to kill an animal which could be considered to be potentially dangerous or damaging to humans or their property, there's the ethical question of how that "danger" is defined and then there's an entire range of issues surrounding the debate between capture, relocation and death as the best option under any given set of circumstances and lastly the method which would best be used in order to bring about the death of an animal when it's been determined that it's appropriate... And that doesn't even begin to touch the questions inherent in the legal ability to "hunt" a given species for meat, skin or sport.

Everyone's going to have a different take on things I suppose and there isn't much that can be done about it... Because I've already started typing and figure I may come to regret the contribution I have already given I may as well go all out and offer mine. Feel free to disagree with me but frankly... I don't give a rat's ass if someone's opinion does differ from mine I'm merely offering mine up because someone else might happen to agree with a few points or potentially see the logic behind mine and change their stance. If not, it's just a couple wasted minutes typing.

Anyway... The first question is about the ethics inherent in killing an animal because it's existance is inconvenient or potentially dangerous. The most common alternatives are either collection and keeping the animal in captivity for the remainder of it's life or releasing the animal into an area where it is believed that it will no longer pose such difficulties for people. Killing the individual specimin or collecting it for permenant captivity are often covered by the laws of any given area. Sometimes one option or the other is legally endorsed or made illegal and I feel that an individual faced with making a decision about an individual animal should follow the legal statutes surrounding such situations at all times. So if any given option is illegal, it removes the decision from the hands of the individual and leaves them with only the legal options or complete inaction. It's worth noting that capture and release in a different area is also very commonly an illegal action and there are very good reasons for this... The spread of pathenogens between semi-isolated populations is a very legitimate concern (desert tortoise style) for starters but there is also the ability of even the most instinctive animals to eventually reccognize patterns and allow these patterns to become ingrained in their behavioral patterns. You move a crotalid a few miles away from where you found it and chances are very good that it'll either end up eaten by the first passing predator that can safely ignore the venom or it'll dehydrate/starve/freeze/bake because the behavioral patterns of the individual animal are so reliant on the patterns which have been established that the animal will literally be unable to perform the actions which would keep it alive. This is, of course, applied to varying degrees for any given species but as a group... crotalids do not fare well at ALL when moved so captivity or a quick death are the preffered options if the animal's best interests are in mind.

This leads somewhat into the second portion of the equation... I didn't get to see the website but from the descriptions posted here it sounds like the device is essentially a four foot (ridgid) snare pole that uses uncoated (?) and thin wire as the snare and then in some fashion incorporates an optional blade which the animal is either pulled against or is in some way made to move into the animal with the intended result being decapitation. I agree that this is not the sort of thing which one would reasonabally be anticipated as carrying around with them "just incase" of a snake encounter that couldn't be resolved by simply moving away. I do see it as something which would only be carried or owned if snake encounters were either common or likely (i.e.-someone who doesn't quite "get it" and can't control snake encounters on their property near their home despite the simplicity inherent in this or someone seeking out snakes on a larger property or with the expressed intention of killing them for what little meat there is and/or the skin). Now... a tool is a tool and has no value inherent in itself. It's an inanimate object, the only moral value which can be applied is specifically in the manner it's used. It's not sane or reasonable to blame a tool or a tool manufacturer for rattlesnake roundups or poaching. That's simply emotional and illogical and kind of a low blow. The issues of how a tool is designed, what it is designed for and it's specific applications are seperate and distinct and need to be kept that way if any conclusions are going to be made.

Now... the design itself... I didn't see it and don't have one but I believe I understand the principle involved here pretty well. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like a noose pole, only smaller. From a handling standpoint, it's a piss poor tool. Too easy to cause injury when that's not the intention, too inaccurate and imprecise to make a good tool for causing injury and/or death (in my experience handling snakes you're probably just as likely to cut the snake in half as decapitate it since most of them react badly to having a constricting pressure of any amount around the neck directly behind the head) given that I think we can all agree that cruelty is wrong (not death... cruelty. There's a difference between killing an animal in the fastest and least painful way possible based on how the animal registeres pain and simply hurting it through intention or ineptitude) and that this tool is not, in it's current design, minimizing the potential for injury and pain- it's a bad tool. I don't even like most tongs because of the ease with which pain and injury can be caused and this seems far more likely to cause such accidental damage without offering any clear advantage over the tools which are already present filling the same potential niche. The other potential application of deliberately causing death... ignoring the whole complication of the morality of causing the death to begin with, this tool does not seem to be a way of efficiently causing the death with the minimum amount of suffering to the animal. Personally... animals will die and unless they are legally protected I've got no real issues with it- I do have issues with causing that death in a manner which is inhumane. Since this tool would just as easily and in fact I'd wager probably more likely end up cutting an animal in half... or worse still cutting it behind the vital organs in such a fashion which leaves it alive after the initial application... it's a bad tool that shouldn't be purchased and, if the manufacturer is serious about the statements of quickly and cleanly causing death OR allowing for safe handling without injury... he'll know that he has failed in meeting these goals and will either seriously redesign the tool or scrap the production entirely if redesign of the basic concept can not allow for those goals to be met (the more likely scenario in my mind, I can't really conceive of a way to make this product work as intended but I guess it's a possibility).

Now... convicting this individual of ethical misdeeds is a personal thing. Trust me, I know well what must be considered before doing so... based on what has been presented here can this individual be condemned? I believe he can be condemned of making and selling a poorly designed tool that does not meet the qualifications he claims to have set out to meet. Selling them anyway... I personally see this as being wrong because it's unfair to his end consumers, but this is balanced against my hatred of ignorant consumers who need to take responsibility for their own actions... so in the end I suppose all I can convict the manufacturer of is stupidity in the implimentation of his design. The marketing is a little screwy since his product can't meet the claims which are being made but I don't think the product is actually outright misrepresented. Selling it as a tool to kill snakes... well, that's what it is, isn't it? I really don't see why people are angry about that aspect, it seems like there's been some emotionally charged confusion between the tool and where and how the tool is applied. This tool doesn't cause poaching or the illegal killing of protected species and rattlesnake roundups were undertaken long before this thing was created and marketed. The tool and it's creator can't be blamed for specific applications the tool is put towards... that's as illogical, stupid and dangerous as blaming gun manufacturers for school shootings or McDonalds for fat fifth graders.

Rockford
12-20-2004, 11:41 AM
Seamus-

Sir, I will try not to insult you but your post was nothing but blabber. I thought you were intelligent judging by a few of your posts but this one is really nothing but blabber.
The stuff about relocating crotalids. Where are you relocating them? Alaska? A different state? Where did you get your research, I would love to read it, seriously.

Emotional? Illogical? Should everyone share your Vulcan ways of looking at situations. Did you see this guys website?

I just don't see how you can write a novella about this thread without seeing this guys website.

I am not sure if you regret your contribution yet as you stated you might but I sure did.

Happy Holidays!! :santa:

Bthacker

DragonCharm
12-20-2004, 12:52 PM
Didn't read all of this, what I read though had good points and an obvious concern for the effected wildlife (the snakes, their prey, and the integrated ecosystems). One thing if certain though, as long as the general concensus, outside of our herp circles, feels that snakes are a pest not unlike a mosquito products like this will sell and people like him will get rich. Educating folks your own age is not going to do a damn thing, they are set in their ways. You need to start with kids, elementry school is best. Start or partcipate in programs in your area that bring herps into schools and help teach the next generation.

Example: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/liveshows.html

Another example would be a pet store near me that would bring their 6' Iggy into classrooms.

Once society can move past it's mental block about snakes we will be better off. Don't forget, we still celebrate a holiday that commemorates a man that drove the snakes from Ireland (St Patricks Day). Don't try to bludgeon people over the head that use these products, it's only going to cause resentment. Try instead to educate without force then back away.

IanV
12-20-2004, 02:38 PM
I only have a moment before I need to head off to work.
The snare no longer has the thin, uncoated wire. I also believe it has not been on "the market" for at least a year even though the site remained active (with old contact information as well). The snare I received last spring came with a thick, rubber coated wire. Perfect? No, but its a step in the right direction.
As for education only works for younger people, I disagree. I have worked tables at local shows teaching people about herps. I have seen quite a few older people who brought their children even though they hate reptiles. 20 minutes with them, and their view point is changed a bit. They may not like snakes, but they are not ignorant and fearful of them. Education works on all people of all ages IMO. Look at me, I used to not care about venomoids, and after a long, heated debate I have changed my mind quite a bit about them.
As for the relocation of Rattlers, I relocate them all the time. A short drive up into the mountains and a short hike and you are well away from people. It works well for everyone.

DragonCharm
12-20-2004, 02:41 PM
As for education only works for younger people, I disagree. I have worked tables at local shows teaching people about herps. I have seen quite a few older people who brought their children even though they hate reptiles. 20 minutes with them, and their view point is changed a bit. They may not like snakes, but they are not ignorant and fearful of them. Education works on all people of all ages IMO. Look at me, I used to not care about venomoids, and after a long, heated debate I have changed my mind quite a bit about them.
It's not that it only works with them, it's just that many adults are very much decided against them and it's damn hard to change their minds. I think if you have limited time to devote to it you will acheive better results with kids, a higher return on your invested time.

Rockford
12-20-2004, 03:21 PM
Look at me, I used to not care about venomoids, and after a long, heated debate I have changed my mind quite a bit about them.


Please enlighten us with what this statement means. I know you know what it means but the wording may be off a bit. Just curious?

Bthacker

Karen Hulvey
12-20-2004, 04:22 PM
I think he means that now he doesn't think it's okay to devenomize a snake whereas before he was okay w/it.

I work at a mom & pot pet store that deals mainly in reptiles. About changing the minds of older people, I'm sure it happens but I haven't seen it yet. Now I'm talking about people 60+ y/o, especially farmers, who grew up fearing and hating snakes period. If I had a nickle every time I heard that old phrase "the only good snake is a dead snake" I'd be pretty rich right now (as I'm sure anyone else who does shows and works retail would be and I do both).

Every time I see an older gentleman in bib overalls coming in the door I know I'm in for the old good snake/dead snake phrase. These people are usually bringing in their grandchildren who literally love reptiles. One guy walked around looking at all the snakes and actually asked if I wanted him to go home and "Git my gun and take care 'o all these snakes?" And they walk around muttering that they can't believe people buy these things.

There was one guy who was in his mid 20's who was buying a ball python and his wife was saying all kinds of bad stuff such as "no snake will live in my house, I'm moving out if that thing comes in my house", among other things. The next week the guy came in and bought another ball python. I asked him if his wife moved out and he said "No that other snake is hers now so I have to get me one." So that is one person who hated snakes and now likes them but she was in her 20's.

psilocybe
12-20-2004, 04:32 PM
I work at a mom & pot pet store that deals mainly in reptiles.

Really...can you get me a job there? LOL :crazy03:

Rockford
12-20-2004, 05:42 PM
I read it again and that's what it looks like to me. Thanks Karen.

Happy Holidays! :santa:

Bthacker

IanV
12-20-2004, 06:11 PM
Sorry about that guys, I was in a hurry.
Yes, I was at one time OK with Venomoids, but now I do not support it at all. It took a long, heated debate and lots of name calling but it finally sunk in.

Rockford
12-20-2004, 07:04 PM
Sorry about that guys, I was in a hurry.
Yes, I was at one time OK with Venomoids, but now I do not support it at all. It took a long, heated debate and lots of name calling but it finally sunk in.

LOL...So what you are saying is that you possibly could be wrong with this entire thread and you might be persuaded to change your mind that this guy was marketing this tool for killing snakes? And that we aren't all stupid, ignorant rednecks? You seem like a pretty nice and smart guy. Hopefully you can see why so many folks are a little agitated.

Happy Holidays!!

Bthacker

IanV
12-20-2004, 08:04 PM
This device WAS marketed for killing snakes, but is no longer that way. I know what the website said, but I also know what John says himself.
As for everyone being ignorant and rednecks, we will just see :raspberry
:)
As for education, I have seen it work with older people, but not anywhere near as effective as younger kids. It is possible though (So is bathing a cat, but I have never seen it done!)

Ian

Tripple H Herps
12-20-2004, 09:01 PM
I think with a lot of work. Education even in the older class can be done. Oh and as for the other thing about the cat. My cat loves baths, it took a lot of bites and scratches but I did it. I believe there was another person who mentioned cutting the snake in half. He is correct in saying this. I do not think this is a humane product. Even decapitating the snake alone is considered inhumane. There is no doubt in my mind that peoples views on reptiles need to change. Otherwise this will always continue.

Rockford
12-20-2004, 09:21 PM
As far is older folks being tougher to educate...well you can ask my Mother. I was 9 years old and educated her and my Stepfather enough for them to allow me to keep snakes. It took a little time but I eventually taught them that snakes weren't all that bad(and I never threatened to burn the house down either). This was before Jurassic Park came out and reptiles weren't as mainstream as they are today. Kids are definitely alot easier!!!

I think this thread has run it's course. Lessons learned:1)Don't kill snakes for fun(unless it's legal). 2)the snakesnare was marketed as a snake killing device (but isn't anymore? website is still down). 3)It's OK to be NASCAR watching, gunrack in your truck having, ignorant and stupid redneck but please dont send life threatening e-mails to ignorant snake killing device manufacturer's. 4) It's great to be able to express your own opinion without anyone getting hurt.

Seriously....Happy Holidays!!! Please be safe when trying to shoot snakes(for all who don't have a snakesnare).

Happy Holidays!!! :deer:

Bthacker

Karen Hulvey
12-20-2004, 10:00 PM
Hey Ian, I've given a cat a flea bath once, YEAH only once. I'll handle a nasty biting 10' retic before I bath a cat again. That was scary and painful!!!

Tripple H Herps
12-20-2004, 10:04 PM
karen..... afraid of a pussy cat?...lol
Happy holidays :rolleyes:

Karen Hulvey
12-20-2004, 11:56 PM
OOOH yeah. This one weighs in at 13 pounds. She bit and scratched me so many times that my arm swelled up and I had to get a tetanus shot! The funny thing was I worked at the clinic where I got the shot and the doctor was telling me I was gonna have to get rid of those nasty biting snakes. What a laugh I got when I told him it was a cat!!!!!

Seamus Haley
12-21-2004, 01:11 AM
Looks like some kind of middle ground was found by the major antagonists... good enough. However since it was left up in the air and was related to the thread topic and fairly signifigant issue unto itself-

Relocation is not a viable means of insuring that all species remain alive if they end up in a situation where interaction with humans demands that action be taken. As I said, the degree varys with species but crotalids when looked at as a whole fare VERY poorly when relocated to an area even a few miles from the one in which they were found. They're all hardwired instinct modified only by pattern recognition- the environmental patterns start to become ingrained from the moment they are dropped and has an enormous impact on the daily behavior of the individual animal. Denning sites, basking sites, the best areas for finding and ambushing prey, the location of water sources... all "memorized" and all specific to the area the snake is found in based on it's own behaviors.

Move a snake with such highly tuned associations with it's microhabitat and it won't hide, might or might not find anything to eat and drink and definitely will not den properly when the time comes. Worst case scenario it ends up dehydrated and starving and succumbs to the constant attacks on the immune system that a wild animal is under. Best case scenario it lives until it gets cold, is unable to den in ANY capacity given that the animal is instinctually driven and the target of that instinct is not physically accessible then freezes to death.

Add to this the tendendcy for micropopulations to be genetically predisposed towards a certain type of prey (again, to varying degrees in individual species/populations) to the point where many individuals will literally starve to death if not provided with something that manages to find the "food" trigger and cause an immediate feeding response...

Relocation is a piss poor option if the intention is preservation of the individual animal. If a rattler (especially out of the North American crotalids and certain species of rattler doubly so) ends up in a situation where it needs to be "dealt with" and can't simply be left alone or avoided then collection and a captive life is the only way to keep it alive... and a quick and humane (note: I still think the tool as described is inefficient at causing a humane death) death is better than an animal starving to death or freezing in a microhabitat to which it did not originally belong anyway (meaning no argument can be made for how it's decomposition is *needed* in the environment to which it has been moved).

This is simply biological fact. If you were unaware of this then frankly you have no business relocating or field collecting animals to begin with.

Karen Hulvey
12-21-2004, 01:22 AM
Where can I read the studies that were done on relocation of North American crotalids, Seamus?

Rockford
12-21-2004, 01:26 AM
Seamus-

Do you know where I can read up on studies regarding relocation of Crotalids? That is pretty interesting stuff if it is true. Please let me know, e-mail or PM.

Happy Holidays!

Bthacker

bcfos
12-21-2004, 10:10 AM
This is simply biological fact. If you were unaware of this then frankly you have no business relocating or field collecting animals to begin with.



Very well said and so very true also. And I am sure the people wanting to read up more on this can always doo a google search and find that information as I did.

Rockford
12-21-2004, 12:35 PM
Thanks Brian....You are my hero!!!

Bthacker

Rockford
12-21-2004, 12:45 PM
How about supplying us a link or search criteria for all us ignorant rednecks. I just did a search and found a bunch a garbage. Please help since you seem alot smarter than me. It would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks-

Bthacker

bcfos
12-21-2004, 01:21 PM
How about supplying us a link or search criteria for all us ignorant rednecks. I just did a search and found a bunch a garbage. Please help since you seem alot smarter than me. It would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks-

Bthacker

Use the advanced search option....... I am not where I can post links at this point, but maybe later tonight I might become benevolent and post a link or two for the computer challenged. ;)

As for being your hero. Well considering the source is an latur Ameríkumađur fábjáni, i take that as a complement. :D

Rockford
12-21-2004, 01:24 PM
Thanks dude. Truly appreciated.

Happy Holidays!!

Bthacker

bcfos
12-21-2004, 01:28 PM
Oh yes and by the way you really need to read the TOS of this site a little more Brett.....
As quoted from the TOS here "Posting external link - 1 point
This has been addressed in a thread somewhere. Basically I do not want links posted here to external URLs that could vanish when the source changes or ceases to exist. Cut and paste, or use a screen shot, please. Especially if you are using it as evidence of some sort. Once the source goes away, your link here is useless."
So do your research on your own and don't rely on links. ;)

IanV
12-21-2004, 11:46 PM
This is simply biological fact. If you were unaware of this then frankly you have no business relocating or field collecting animals to begin with.

Well obviously, I, and many other herpetologists just aren't as smart as you then Seamus? I've read all the evidence, for and against. The relocation of rattlers has NOT been proven as pure death for any species. In fact, it gives the animal a chance to survive.
You love to throw big words around, but have yet to prove anything. Most of the evidence out there shows that relocated species DO have a chance at dying, but also have just as good of a chance to live. Sounds more like an opinion than a fact Seamus.
Though this discussion has run the course of this thread. I assume there is somewhere better to discuss the pro's and con's of relocation.
Ian

Rockford
12-22-2004, 01:05 AM
Oh yes and by the way you really need to read the TOS of this site a little more Brett.....
As quoted from the TOS here "Posting external link - 1 point
This has been addressed in a thread somewhere. Basically I do not want links posted here to external URLs that could vanish when the source changes or ceases to exist. Cut and paste, or use a screen shot, please. Especially if you are using it as evidence of some sort. Once the source goes away, your link here is useless."
So do your research on your own and don't rely on links. ;)

Thanks, dude! I totally forgot to read the TOS this morning! I don't have it remembered yet. Even though I have it plastered on my wall behind the computer screen. I told you, you were smarter than me. Oh, well. This site would be so chaotic without your wealth of knowledge!

Can you believe I am still searching on google too? Well thanks anyway. I am sure it is/was some interesting stuff. :crap:

Thanks-

Bthacker

bcfos
12-22-2004, 01:22 AM
you could always have the TOS places in the form of a tatoo on your gluteus maximus so whe you take your head out of it that will be the first thing you see besides daylight. ;)

Rockford
12-22-2004, 01:46 AM
you could always have the TOS places in the form of a tatoo on your gluteus maximus so whe you take your head out of it that will be the first thing you see besides daylight. ;)

That's a good one. You sure are witty! I bet that's why you call yourself the womanizer.

BTW......Mr rear end is reserved for your face. Can you post a pic? That's not against the TOS is it?

Bthacker

bcfos
12-22-2004, 02:03 AM
Highly doubtful since you have seemingly limited skills and even more limited thinking ability. But what can we expect from someone living in liberal California?

How is that google search going anyway? Still lost in never never land?

Rockford
12-22-2004, 02:19 AM
Highly doubtful since you have seemingly limited skills and even more limited thinking ability. But what can we expect from someone living in liberal California?

How is that google search going anyway? Still lost in never never land?

Is that the best you can come up with? That is pitiful. You have nothing good to come back with but a weak jab at the state that I reside in.

I gave up on the search awhile ago. I am pretty sure you are FOS anyway. I would rather waste my time typing back and forth insults to you.

Have a Merry Christmas!!!

Bthacker

bcfos
12-22-2004, 02:23 AM
Is that the best you can come up with? That is pitiful. You have nothing good to come back with but a weak jab at the state that I reside in.

I gave up on the search awhile ago. I am pretty sure you are FOS anyway. I would rather waste my time typing back and forth insults to you.

Have a Merry Christmas!!!

Bthacker


You can try but your attempts thus far are very weak indeed. Go back to pre-school and find some original material and then get back with me. Till then I bet you tear google up looking for something witty to say. :rofl:

Python Dreams
12-22-2004, 03:35 AM
Talking crap about California from Alabama? I can already hear the dueling banjos playing..... :-)
Tom Baker

Mustangrde1
12-22-2004, 10:03 AM
Gordon Schuett, a former Arizona State University biology professor who studies Arizona rattlesnakes, said moving a snake any substantial distance is distressful to it. Schuett is among those who say euthanasia by a veterinarian may be kinder. "Reptiles have a keen sense of their home, and what they do is try to find home when you translocate them. If you move them a mile, they either return or get confused," Schuett said. The stress creates hormonal changes that interfere with their ability to find food and makes them more vulnerable to predators and disease, he said. Schuett also sees problems in introducing a snake into a new population.Different groups of snakes have different types of immunities. A snake entering a population can infect the new group or become infected itself with diseases or parasites, said Schuett, curator of reptiles at Zoo Atlanta and a faculty member at Georgia State University. Schuett, who conducts fieldwork in Arizona, co-edited Biology of the Vipers, a book that includes several Arizona studies that show rattlesnakes died after being moved farther than a quarter-mile from home. Kevin Wright, curator of living collections at the Phoenix Zoo, agreed that moving snakes could consign them to a slow death. Wright, a veterinarian and reptile expert, said a good relocation site is hard to find. "If it's a good habitat, snakes are there already. If it's bad, there aren't any snakes," said Wright, adding that survival depends on their prey base. "A little ground snake that feeds on beetles can survive, but rattlesnakes need more." The addition of a single mature snake can throw off the ecological balance of a snake feeding ground. Wright recommends education and tolerance.


Arizona Poison and Drug Information Center, AHSC, 1501 N. Campbell, Tucson, AZ 85724

For years government and private agencies throughout the west have participated in the relocation of desert pests including venomous reptiles at the request of homeowners and businesses. The relocation of these animals is perceived by the general public and the agencies involved as a humanitarian way of dealing with the problems associated with habitat loss.

Through an Arizona Game and Fish Department Heritage Grant we studied the demographics, mortality, movement levels and the risk of vipirid paromyxovirus transmission in a group of one hundred rattlesnakes (Crotalus spp.) moved by a private fire department from human habitations and businesses as a service to their subscribers in areas around Tucson.

Activity ranges were documented in nine snakes implanted with telemetry transmitters. Twenty snakes were tested for the presence of the humeral antibodies to the vipirid paromyxovirus. Ninety seven snakes were marked with Passive Integrated Transponders before release to insure identification and subsequent analysis of recapture data.

When compared to previous reports on non-translocated rattlesnakes, individual mortality was high, and a majority of snakes showed increased size in their activity ranges. We found no elevated titer for the vipirid paromyxovirus. No information was obtain from recaptured snakes.

Those are but 2 of numerous studies on Relocation of crotalids. Obviously fatalities are high. Obviously there is a chance of introducing something fatal to other animals in the relocated area. I am not going to waiste to much of my time posting every article but the two i posted are from obviously well known and well documented field and lab research. There are many more studies out there all showing High mortality levels when relocation is done.

Mustangrde1
12-22-2004, 10:30 AM
Oh and one last thought i forgot to add.

We all have quarantine procedures we use in our own reptile keeping practices to protect our colonies form introduction of unwanted parasites or virus's. We know that a new arrival needs to be seperated to protect our animals from being exposed and potentially as seen many times killing off an entire collection.

Now ask yourself this and you do not need to be a rocket scientist to answer it. What happens to a population of Crotalids if Paromix gets brought in to an area thats free of it and the animal infects hundred more by finding the den that population is useing or just comming in to contact of another animal that does use that den site?

Rockford
12-22-2004, 12:42 PM
Talking crap about California from Alabama? I can already hear the dueling banjos playing..... :-)
Tom Baker

Hey Tom-

Your name was brought up by my sister down in HB. I guess you guys have a mutual friend. I am not sure her/his name. I'll e-mail and let you know.

Brian-
Yeah, I don't really see how you can talk crap about Cali. I have been to Alabama many times and there isn't anything worth mentioning. You should see the women coming out of there.....Not too hard to be a womanizer there but why the hell would you want to be? Yikes!

Merry Christmas!

Bthacker

bcfos
12-22-2004, 12:57 PM
Talking crap about California from Alabama? I can already hear the dueling banjos playing..... :-)
Tom Baker


And where is your MBA?? Doubt you finished high school but there is hope after all you know. ;)


Brian-
Yeah, I don't really see how you can talk crap about Cali. I have been to Alabama many times and there isn't anything worth mentioning. You should see the women coming out of there.....Not too hard to be a womanizer there but why the hell would you want to be? Yikes!

Never said Alabama was such a great place now did I? It just has a $1.43 gas and a cheap cost of living is all. And the women here are lackluster at best on a drunk can't see day. Now the boardering states east and south have a much better selection. ;) Which is another factor I had to consider when I agreed to move in January.

Oh yeah did Scott answer some of your questions with his post?? If not you can always use google to find more information. :rofl:

Tim Cole
12-22-2004, 01:05 PM
Maybe Brett and Brian can start thier own thread on "HELL"? OR GETA ROOM! :argue: :-)

Rockford
12-22-2004, 01:58 PM
Never said Alabama was such a great place now did I? It just has a $1.43 gas and a cheap cost of living is all. And the women here are lackluster at best on a drunk can't see day. Now the boardering states east and south have a much better selection. ;) Which is another factor I had to consider when I agreed to move in January.

Oh yeah did Scott answer some of your questions with his post?? If not you can always use google to find more information. :rofl:

I appreciate the time that Scott took to make his posts. They are filled with some good information.

Brian-
OK...You might do better in Georgia but I lived in Tupelo and It isn't much better there than it is in Alabama. Now Tennessee is a whole different story. I lived in Nashville and there is nothing but colleges filled with fine Southern Belles. I had some fun there. Good luck on your move. I am done in this thread so I will let you have the last jab if you want.

Merry Christmas to you all!!!

Bthacker

Python Dreams
12-22-2004, 04:18 PM
bcfos,
I do not have an MBA, but I have graduated High School. I really wasnt implying that living in Alabama means you have no education, more just messing around with generalizations.
Bthacker,
That is crazy that you know someone that knows me. It is definitely a small world. I lived in Huntington Beach from about the time I graduated up until about 4 years ago. Let me know who it is when you find out. :-)
Tom Baker

bcfos
12-22-2004, 05:29 PM
I appreciate the time that Scott took to make his posts. They are filled with some good information.

Brian-
OK...You might do better in Georgia but I lived in Tupelo and It isn't much better there than it is in Alabama. Now Tennessee is a whole different story. I lived in Nashville and there is nothing but colleges filled with fine Southern Belles. I had some fun there. Good luck on your move. I am done in this thread so I will let you have the last jab if you want.

Merry Christmas to you all!!!

Bthacker


Brett,

Try a little more south say like Florida. yeah I know it is filled with a lot of old people waiting around to die, but the area I am moving to is just south of U of Florida at and FSU. Also Tampa and Orlando are within a short drive. :D I do agree that anything in Mississippi is for lack of a better term a waste. I like Atlanta and Nashville, but I tend to get into more trouble in Atlanta. ;)

And Tom don't get me wrong I am the first to tell someone who asks what living in Alabama is like about the mental giants we have running around here. :hehe: Nothing like walking into a bar and calling out the name "Bubba" and have at least 10 guys turn around and look to see if their cousin is there. :rofl: I will miss picking on these people here because no matter how smug you are to them they haven't got a clue you insulted them.