Is This a Good Idea?

[Karen Hulvey]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/175/size/big/sort/1/cat/524

Check out the picture above then tell me if this is a good idea. Looks like an accident waiting to happen.

[Traci1]

Perhaps it is a venomoid and he/she is just trying to get a "rise" out of people by not mentioning that? If it is truly "hot" then they are just asking for trouble. In my opinion.

[old guy]

why laws are passed if this person gets nabbed if this is not venomoid. Even if it is , it 's not the type of thing we want to propell in an image of venomous keepers or collectors. Maybe the person considers the snake to be low toxin because it is a juvenile ? And maybe if envenomated it won't be to serious. Probably true but still...................

[ms_terese]

Has someone informed Lonermon of this thread? Perhaps he'd come here and explain his thoughts on this.

[Rattlesnake]

I don't know how old the neonate in the picture is, but it seems that I read something somewhere that if it is 1 - 10 hrs old it doesn't use its venom yet. (help me out here) But they are just as deadly, if not more so that the adult is at that age.

[cthulhu77]

Well, it says in the title that it is about six months old...I wonder when he is going to start going to church and dancing around with it?
greg

[ms_terese]

But they are just as deadly, I think it might be a stretch to call a cottonmouth "deadly". While I won't argue that they can inflict a nasty bite, I live in an area abundant with cottonmouths and have not heard of a death in decades. Certainly the very young and the very elderly are at higher risk for a serious reaction, a normal healthy male doesn't have much risk of death. I, myself, would be more concerned about a reaction to the antivenin than the snakebite itself.

[Gregg M]

Actually, it is not a stretch to call a cottonmouth deadly..... They can and do kill....... There was a cotton bite that proved to be deadly not too long ago....... Within 6 years or so...... Heck, people have even died as a result of a copperhead bite..... Venomous snakes are able to use their venom as soon as they are born..... They are not deadlier than the adults..... That is an old wives tale...... A neonate is not able to do more or even as close to as much damage as an adult because of the simple fact that they have a much smaller yeild...... The venom of a neonate is not any more toxic than an adults...... But it may be true that neonates do not have as much control over the amount of venom injected in a bite..... Anyway, venomous snake should be respected and not freehandled no matter how "mild" their venom is considered......

[ms_terese]

Actually, it is not a stretch to call a cottonmouth deadly..... They can and do kill....... Considering that the U.S. averages 12 fatal snake bites per year, and 99% of those are from rattlesnakes, I think it's a stretch. You're much more likely to be killed by a dog or a bee sting.

That being said, you won't find me freehandling anything venomous, and I don't find it a responsible thing to do (mostly because of the bad impression it gives of hobbyists).

[thesnakeman]

Unless this animal is a venomoid, or venom void as I call them,...YES this is a bad idea. But it's not an accident waiting to happen, it's an incident waiting to happen. And when it does happen, and it will, sooner or later, it will be just one more nail in the coufin of herpeticulture. Our hobby is under attack every day by zealots from PETA and The Humane Society because of irresponsible stuff like this. Every time some hot keeper gets bit, it makes the powers that be alittle more prejudice against us. And then they pass another stupid law which makes us ALL suffer. Please don't do this. I don't care if it's venomoid or not. It makes us all look bad, and it makes us all pay!
T.

[Mustangrde1]

First off this person is obviously breaking the Florida laws for Hot keeping! He came to TRR asking how or who he can be trained for his VRL "venomous reptile license." It is not a good idea to ever handle a venomous snake that way. venomous snakes are born with venom and the ability to use it upon their first breath.

Here is his thread on TRR http://thereptileroom.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1299&st=0&#entry12817entry12817
Screen shot not working right now but here is the thread. I will also lock it so it can not be deleted or edited at this point. Below is a cut n paste of it.

venemous training wanted
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Lonermon
Posted: Dec 22 2004, 10:32 PM
i live in ft lauderdale and wan t to get my venemous license . i have been handling and catching both venemous and non venemous snakes since i was a teenager . i have 3 days off a week and am willign to put in the time . any assistance you can give would be helpfull . please respond here or email me at lonermon@yahoo.com ( please put the heading "venemous training " so that i dont delete it as spam )
Thanks
Turtle

Casual Herper


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[Karen Hulvey]

I emailed Lonormon about this thread.

I really wish people would not free handle hot snakes. It really gripes me to no end when I see it. There are plenty of ways to handle them w/o getting your hand right up near their face.

I really would like to know why people do this. Is it machismo, testosterone, beer, age-related (some young people think they're invincible) or just pure ignorance of the consequences?

[ms_terese]

I read somewhere that approximately 95% of the snakebites in the U.S. involve alcohol....and it ain't the snake that's drinkin'! :beer:

[Traci1]

I really would like to know why people do this. Is it machismo, testosterone, beer, age-related (some young people think they're invincible) or just pure ignorance of the consequences?

Reading your question also makes me curious as to what percentage of venomous snake bite victims are male vs. female! :raspberry sorry guys, I can't help but to wonder!

[bcfos]

This is not a good idea at all. Besides breaking the Florida laws he is showing total disregaurd for other venomous keepers by posting pictures of him free handing. This could come back to bite him in the ass if he ever gets bitten, and I don't care how docile a snake is all it takes is one time and you are tagged. Be it a mistake by you or the little fellow having a bad scale day, but once you are bitten there is no explaining your disreguard for being a responsible keeper.

[psilocybe]

Reading your question also makes me curious as to what percentage of venomous snake bite victims are male vs. female! :raspberry sorry guys, I can't help but to wonder!

They typical demographic for an "illegitimate" snakebite victim in the U.S. (illegimate referring to the purposeful interaction with a venomous snake, as opposed to an accident, i.e. stepping on one while out in the field) is a male between 20-40, and alcohol is almost always a contributing factor.

[Lonermon]

<copied from my comments on the picture pages and added to >
thanks for all the comments

1) yes i am well aware of the fact that this is a venemous snake , and i have seen the results of her venom on live mice .

2) its not because of "people like me " that anythign is being banned .i have never been bitten by a hot snake ,nor have i ever caused anyone else to be bitten .

3) im familiar with the temperment of all my snakes . this particular snake is VERY docile . having been handled by me since jsut after birth .

4)althjough i dont even begin to say that there is no possability of her striking this shot was taken on a cool day , her having been recently fed as well . at the time of the photo ( which ws taken without flash ) she was nerly dormant

no she is not a venemoid . no i didnt take this picture to "get a rise" out of people . i took this picture to show off her coloring .
cottonmouths ARE venemous . but not lethal . but thats nto to say that id be willign to get bit jsut becasue it woudnt be lethal . theres a reason i have never been bit . and to those of you that are gonna say " no matter how docile the snake is , no matter how cold it was , no matter how well you know its temperment . your still stupid and asking to be bit " . well i suggest you never get in a car , because no matter how long youve been driving or how alert you are the possability still exhists for you to be killed in a horrible accident.

[Lonermon]

I emailed Lonormon about this thread.



I really would like to know why people do this. Is it machismo, testosterone, beer, age-related (some young people think they're invincible) or just pure ignorance of the consequences?

in my case . no its not age related ( Im in my late 30's) . drug or alcohol related ( as i do neither) . machismo . or ignorance . and far as invincible , <grin> i only wish .

its experience with the snake in question . i would never dream of handling an unknown snake liek this . if the picture so offends others i will go ahead and remove it ( if i can)

just as a point of intrest . thanks to several people for pointing me to someone that was willign to offer training . startign next week i will be gettign trainign 2-3 days a week with experienced and licensed handlers .

[Lonermon]

[QUOTE=Mustangrde1]First off this person is obviously breaking the Florida laws for Hot keeping!

to any and all of you that have made comments about me breakign the law . your making an awfull big jump . the truth is although this is my snake you ASSUME that its beign kept illegally . thats a pretty big assumption . i guess its jsut impossible that its kept in a properly secured container or approved enviroment , that its not being kept int he possession of a licensed handler untill i can complete my training and get my license . i dunno about you but i was tought not to make assumptions , let alone throw out accusations of people breakign the law .

[Mustangrde1]

Interesting how you state that you are looking to be trained, It strikes me as very strange that if as you say the truth is although this is my snake and that its not being kept int he possession of a licensed handler untill i can complete my training and get my license So why would you be asking for trainning if it is with a licensed keeper? Who is this licensed Keeper? Obviously if it is with a licensed keeper you would have a resource for trainning so why are you asking for a trainer in your area?

Lot of things sound not in order. Would you enlighten us to the questions above?

[Lonermon]

the difference between having found a store willing to board my snake and finind someone that is willing to spend the time to help me in training is the difference between what you think you know and what is really going on . and if you for a minute think im gonna give you the name of either where i have my snake boarded or where im gettign training ,your well out of your head . you might wanna take a step back into your own life and not delve so deeply into mine .

[Lonermon]

[QUOTE=Mustangrde1]Interesting how you state that you are looking to be trained, It strikes me as very strange that if as you say and So why would you be asking for trainning if it is with a licensed keeper?

the reality is that there are places that offer boardign of venemous snakes that do not offer training . the whole reason that i want to get the training is so that i can legally own and possess venemous snakes . well thats not the truth . thats the largest part of the reason , another important part is i only know what i have read and from personal experience of having grown up handling snakes . i want to learn more from othjers that have more formal or specific training . i neither have the time nor money to go back to school , but i am willing to volenteer my time to learn what i want and get my venemous license .

now at this point i think i have answered any legitimate questions . to persue this any further would be an intrusion into my personal life or merely insults . and as I dont feel the necessity of giving you or anyone else personal information and im not inclined to get into insults i wont adress any further comments on this subject .

[Gregg M]

Here is a legit question..... How can you justify freehandling a mocc.... And who told you they can not kill you...... There is a person that fequents thes forums that can tell you differently...... Infact he owns one that killed a person.... So you held the mocc in your hands to show off its colors???? I keep gaboons and never felt the need to hold them in my hands to show coloration..... That is just about the stupidest thing I have read yet..... And yes people like you do bad things for this hobby including getting it banned..... You will get bitten one day but I guess that is natures way of getting rid of bad genetics..... Too bad it impacts our hobby so much when some dummy gets bitten......

[reptilebreeder]

I just hope the person who decided to train him knows that he freehandles venomous herps. Not because of machismo, of course, we all know that color shows better when subject is in hand, and not on some background that would highlight colors, but I digress. I would not want someone around my herps who was into freehandling, even if they say they won't, because you can't keep your eye on them the whole time, and the urge would be to great. Maybe he has found someone who is also into freehandling, there are people who do it, even some that are labled, arguably as experts.

[Lonermon]

I just hope the person who decided to train him knows that he freehandles venomous herps. Not because of machismo, of course, we all know that color shows better when subject is in hand, and not on some background that would highlight colors, but I digress. I would not want someone around my herps who was into freehandling, even if they say they won't, because you can't keep your eye on them the whole time, and the urge would be to great. Maybe he has found someone who is also into freehandling, there are people who do it, even some that are labled, arguably as experts.

the URGE ? you make me laugh .i swaer you all think your a bunch of psychics and detectives . and i have no intentions of freehandling any of the snakes that i will be workign with .primarily because i would not want to endanger the training that i am so glad to be gettign , then theres the fact that i would never want to put them through the hassle if somethign did happen . then there's the fact that i dont know anythign about the temperment of the snakes that i will be workign with . and of course th fact hat i sure as heck dont wanna get bit . so before anyone else tries to GUESS casue thats all they are , and there bad guesses at that . my motivation or thoughs for ANYTHING i do , dont do it . if you dont knwo me , and none of you do . you are in no position to try and analise me .give it a rest your gettign boring :scatter:

[Lonermon]

Here is a legit question..... How can you justify freehandling a mocc.... And who told you they can not kill you...... There is a person that fequents thes forums that can tell you differently...... Infact he owns one that killed a person.... So you held the mocc in your hands to show off its colors???? I keep gaboons and never felt the need to hold them in my hands to show coloration..... That is just about the stupidest thing I have read yet..... And yes people like you do bad things for this hobby including getting it banned..... You will get bitten one day but I guess that is natures way of getting rid of bad genetics..... Too bad it impacts our hobby so much when some dummy gets bitten......


justify ? i dont attempt or feel necessary to jsutify anythign . i merely explain . as for them not beign able to kill , well i simply refer to statistics for that information . as for why the picture was taken with me holding her well , it wasnt possible to get a good shot at her inside the cage and as far as other backgrounds i would never let my snake out of my hands ( or hooks ) when its outside the cage . without settign it down somewhere , which i had no intention of doing around someoen that deosnt handle snakes , there wasnt really a good backdrop .im not a breeder or a seller that has a setup already made for pictures im merely a guy that catches and raises snakes . i wont allow a flash to be used when im holding a snake so i had to be nearer to the light source .and i guess it was foolish of me to think that people would appreciate the opportunity to see a snake that they might otherwise not have . but ALL ive gotten is bs from peopel trying to tell me what i think and having all kinds accusations from me being stupid ( with an iq of 189 ?) to how im breakign the law ( when in fact the snake is with a licensed handler) . and as for the dummies that get bit well i cant really comment on them , becasue im not amung them . not once by a hot snake in probably 15 years of catching in the wild . ive removed the "offending" picture and still i have to deal with this crap . hey i got an idea . lets take everyone that has or has ever had a venemous snake ,licensed or no,t and trace it back . can you tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that every snake youve ever bought or sold has not ever been "freehandled" . if youve ever bought or sold a snake that was cought in the wild and you havent verified that that snake was never free handled then i accuse you , buy actually paying money for that snake ( money being a far greater influence than a picture ) of puttign others at risk than i have with my picture. of course if youve only bought from reliable breeders and had them sign an notorized afadavid that they have never and will never "freehandle " snakes , then consider yourself exempt and free of any blame whatsoever . untill that point look to thyself before castign blame on others .

[Traci1]

Lonermon, I don't keep venomous (closest thin I have is a western hognose!) but you have to realize that posting a picture like that w/o any type of explanation is going to get quite a negative reaction from most people. What if someone posted a picture of themselves pointing a gun at or holding a knife to their head, hand, foot, etc...and then the only comment they add to the picture is how nice the weapon looks and how long they've had it in their collection. Maybe that's a bad comparison. I don't keep venomous nor do I collect weapons so maybe I should just be quiet! haha. But I'm just trying to help you understand maybe why your picture got the reaction it did. And it is true that when people are not careful about the animals they keep and they or someone else gets hurt or killed...it does make the news and it does affect everyone else's freedom to keep similar animals. It's just not fair to those who are responsible keepers/owners. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Lonermon]

Lonermon, I don't keep venomous (closest thin I have is a western hognose!) but you have to realize that posting a picture like that w/o any type of explanation is going to get quite a negative reaction from most people. What if someone posted a picture of themselves pointing a gun at or holding a knife to their head, hand, foot, etc...and then the only comment they add to the picture is how nice the weapon looks and how long they've had it in their collection. Maybe that's a bad comparison. I don't keep venomous nor do I collect weapons so maybe I should just be quiet! haha. But I'm just trying to help you understand maybe why your picture got the reaction it did. And it is true that when people are not careful about the animals they keep and they or someone else gets hurt or killed...it does make the news and it does affect everyone else's freedom to keep similar animals. It's just not fair to those who are responsible keepers/owners. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

no you have every right to comment and i appreciate that you kept your comments on a realistic plane and didnt attempt to second guess me or throw accusatiosn at me . in retrospect i see your point .but like i had previously stated , i didnt post the picture to encourage others to freehandle snakes, but rather to give peope a chance to see a variety of snake they otherwise migh not get to . to be honest i dont think anyone that saw the [picture will decide to go out and catch or buy a venemous snake , freehandle it ,get bit , die , and suddenly there be a ban on snakes . but yet thats basically what im being accused of . by peopel that themselves have more than likely ,unless they can provide the documentation that i earlier mentioned , had a much greater influence than i on others freehandling snakes . in fact if im correct there were only 16 people that viewed the picture before i removed it . of course i dont know how many peopel saw it in this thread , im not even sure weither it was pasted or the link listed in the original post .

jsut a quick note . Steve Irwin and at least one of his assistants have been bitten on national tv by snakes far more dangerous than any i have ever or probably will ever handle .as tv might possible have a broader impact than the 16 or so people that viewed my picture maybe you ( not you personally , but those that have chosen to get on my case) would be better suited to starting a thread against him . :scatter:

[Gregg M]

See now, I do not see the logic in any of your post...... And for someone that claims to have a 189 IQ you have some pretty poor spelling..... Plus free handling hots and photographing it is just about the stupidest thing one can do...... But that is beside the point..... You would have been much better off posting a pic of that snake in its cage..... You do not bring the snake to the light source..... You bring the light to the snake..... I do not use a flash on my snakes when I photograph them either..... I use lighting...... Lame excuses...... I think you were actually trying to show people here that you have balls......

The big majority of hot keepers do not free handle their hots...... There are a very very small number of people that do..... And if you must know, I only buy animals from the best in the hobby that have the same veiws on how these animals should be respected as I do...... It is great that you wanted to show everyone your snake but it is nothing unusual..... Infact most neonate cottons look exactly like that...... Like I said the picture would have been much more welcome if it was not in your hands..... There is absolutly no good reason to free handle a hot...... Even medicating or force feeding a sick one can be done without beig so exposed to it...... No matter how you slice it your acts and reasoning are beyond dumb and do no good for this hobby that is slowly being taken away from us..... People like you just speed up the banning actually......

[Seamus Haley]

Ehh... he mentioned Irwin as some kind of positive and took photographs of himself freehandling. The guy is clearly a moron. End of story. No debate. I have spoken.

[Traci1]

i didnt post the picture to encourage others to freehandle snakes, but rather to give peope a chance to see a variety of snake they otherwise migh not get to...



And you know what, I appreciate that. Just like with Steve Irwin's show, I appreciate that I have been able to see and learn about so many different types of animals across the world. However, he catches a lot flack too because of his methods. (and you are catching it too cause of the methods you used to take your picture) I personally think Iriwn pesters the animals too much. But he does often say to us viewers that if we should come across a snake to leave it alone. So basically he is saying "do as I say not as I do...I've been doing this a long time, I know what I am doing, and I am willing to put myself in a dangerous situation so you can get a good look at these animals and learn about them." And yes I know there's more to it than just that (I'm sure they are also interested in the ratings, the money, etc...)

But if Steve Irwin gets bit and dies from it, I seriously doubt it will have any affect on the regular person's ability to keep venomous animals. It's when it happens to the average joe that it gets in the local papers and on the news...and then that person's neighbors all of a sudden know that these "dangerous" animals had been living right next door to them. That's when people can get together and push for a ban on "exotic" animals.

I have seen other pictures posted on other sites receive the same reaction as yours did. I think venomous keepers are in constant worry that they will lose their freedom to keep such animals. I even worry about it happening where I live, even though most of my collection consists of corn snakes. A snake is a snake to a lot of people...whether it's a corn snake, a burmese python, or a rattlesnake. I recently saw some pictures on another site showing huge burmese pythons who have free roam of the house, and the owner more than once posted comments bragging about his "security system". I find that totally irresponsible and another example of a serious incident waiting to happen. One that could very well have a negative effect on other people's ability to keep large pythons like that.

I agree with a previous post that your reason for free-handling was not a good one. I don't think picture taking could ever possibly be a valid reason for free-handling a hot snake. However, I think it'd be great if you could set up some lighting so you can take pictures of him/her in it's enclosure. I'm sure everyone would appreciate seeing pictures of your pretty snake taken that way.

Happy New Year, and Peace!

Traci

[Gregg M]

Good point Seamus..... That in its self shows the level at which this person operates.... LOL

[Gregg M]

Oh and Traci, for someone that does not keep hots, you have a great outlook on the situation..... I appluad you and your comments.....

[Traci1]

Oh and Traci, for someone that does not keep hots, you have a great outlook on the situation..... I appluad you and your comments.....

Thank you Gregg, that was nice to say. I must admit I have a little bit of a yearning to keep a hot snake (NEVER thought I'd say that)...but I know I am not ready. Maybe I never will be. That is a HUGE responsibility, just HUGE. They are so beautiful and fascinating. Luckily the show closest to me (Hamburg, PA) allows hots. My favorites to look at are albino monacled cobras, eyelash vipers, albino rattlesnakes, and gaboon vipers. But if I were to ever keep one I'd most likely start with a copperhead. But I don't know if that day will ever come. I do have some not so trustworthy, not so calm corn snakes that I unintentionally 'practice' with. I don't handle them in the same way I handle the others, I handle them so I don't get bit!! It hurts!! :bawling:

Thanks again

[Bringerofdoom]

lonerman, im not trying to argue here, but a 189 iq puts you near einsteins intellegence. (200 something) now looking at the misspelling errors and other errors, it would make me think otherwise about your true iq level. scince you just called yourself a genius......

now i USED to keep cottonmouths a long time ago (when i was 14-16). HECK i even free handled them, BUT looking back at what i was doing i realized how stupid i was for it. now im just a man of average intellect (156 iq) and i know that your picture you posted is just asking for trouble.

also, the comparison to owning a venemous snake and driving is a weak comparison. because if we get in a wreck its normal and nothing bad would happen cause of it. a venemous owner who gets bit and DOESNT have the permit to even own the snake is a blackeye on the HERP community. just like traci said, stuff would happen because of it.

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2003/snake_kills_firefighter_ohio.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-13-snake_x.htm

those are just some examples. even if you dont die itll still make news headlines...

[Mustangrde1]

Been a tad busy with other things so kinda ignored this till now.

the difference between having found a store willing to board my snake and finind someone that is willing to spend the time to help me in training is the difference between what you think you know and what is really going on . and if you for a minute think im gonna give you the name of either where i have my snake boarded or where im gettign training ,your well out of your head . you might wanna take a step back into your own life and not delve so deeply into mine .

having found a store willing to board my snake
So was this picture taken at a "STORE" if so I know of NO stores that would allow freehandling of the snake in thier store as it opens them to criminal and civil liability. Not to mention a bite in thier store would send the insurance rates through the roof.

So if it was not in a store where was it and who got it out of its cage?

you might wanna take a step back into your own life and not delve so deeply into mine This is the bussiness of any and all person who responcibly keep reptiles as this type of behavior does impact our hobby in very negative ways.

[Karen Hulvey]

but ALL ive gotten is bs from peopel trying to tell me what i think and having all kinds accusations from me being stupid ( with an iq of 189 ?) to how im breakign the law ( when in fact the snake is with a licensed handler) .

Okay so we've got a genius here. Apparently English is his second language because he can't spell, cannot use punctuation correctly and doesn't know where to use capital letters except when he NEEDS it. LOL

and to those of you that are gonna say " no matter how docile the snake is , no matter how cold it was , no matter how well you know its temperment . your still stupid and asking to be bit " . well i suggest you never get in a car , because no matter how long youve been driving or how alert you are the possability still exhists for you to be killed in a horrible accident.

A car accident is just that . . . an accident. An accident could be someone else's fault.
Freehandling a venomous snake is asking to get bit. It will not be an accident if you get bit and it will be YOUR fault.

It's just a baby so how can you know it's temperament after only having it a few months? You say that it hasn't been at your house. So you don't have a chance to see it every day. So what if the snake was cold, it can still bite.

Here's a story that proves that no venomous snake is "safe" to free handle:
(sorry but I couldn't find the newspaper clipping and I'm trying to get it from the newspaper) This happened in 2001 in Pilot Knob, Missouri. The snake was a timber rattlesnake.

Two guys killed a rattlesnake. They cut its head off. One guy took the head home and the other one took the body home. The one w/the head managed to get bit by the head while fooling around with it and his wife took him to the ER for treatment. According to the guy, it was about 1 hour after they killed the snake. Oh, they took the head to the ER too. Can you say stooopid.

I don't own venomous snakes, I'd like to have a copperhead some day and I don't want any more legislation or for that matter a total ban on them because of people like you who can't act responsibly and handle a hot correctly.

Right now I'm babysitting 4 eastern diamondback rattlesnakes, a timber rattlesnake and a dusky pigmy rattlesnake for a friend who is having a house built. The people he's staying with won't let him keep his snakes at their house. I also have all his nonvenomous snakes too which I care for.
(In another forum and on a chat I said these snakes were WDBs but I got it wrong and after talking to my friend he corrected me, they're EDBs)

He comes over and tends to his venomous snakes, I don't open the cages for any reason. That being said, when he comes over to feed, clean, etc. I have only seen him tail a 5 1/2 footer with the hook just past the snake's head once. The head was nowhere near his body. Everything is done with tongs, hooks and cages with walls that slide in and out. (Snake on one half of cage, wall slid in, empty part of cage cleaned, wall removed, snake coerced into other side of cage, wall slid in and other side of cage cleaned.) He has neat caging that he built for these snakes so he doesn't have to handle them very much.

He handles these snakes responsibly and I'm learning a lot from him.

I hope that your venomous training goes well. I hope that the person training you can explain to you why freehandling a baby cottonmouth in the manner you did was not a good idea. Obviously the people on this forum are getting nowhere with you.

[Lonermon]

Ehh... he mentioned Irwin as some kind of positive and took photographs of himself freehandling. The guy is clearly a moron. End of story. No debate. I have spoken.

listen . you really wanna start name calling ? is that what you want ? cant possibly prove a point ( which others have been able to without name callign ) this isnt the hell board if all your gonna do is hurl insults i suggest you shut the **** up . and as for being a moron . well i dont suppose that you actually know the meaning of the word , a moron is a person with an intelligence quotient between 50-75 . such a person would not be able to read let alone type . as for you that are so quickto associate typing skills with intelligence . get a clue any 10 year old can use spell checker . but i choose not to . my spellign is fine , my typing sucks and alwasy has , and i could really care less because i get my point across .

and before i have one more person accuse me of being detrimental to the hooby . show proof or shut up . show proof how i have negative;y affected anyone . and you being offended by the picture isnt negatively affecting the hobby so dont even waste your time on that argument . :scatter:

[Lonermon]

Been a tad busy with other things so kinda ignored this till now.




So was this picture taken at a "STORE" if so I know of NO stores that would allow freehandling of the snake in thier store as it opens them to criminal and civil liability. Not to mention a bite in thier store would send the insurance rates through the roof.

So if it was not in a store where was it and who got it out of its cage?

This is the bussiness of any and all person who responcibly keep reptiles as this type of behavior does impact our hobby in very negative ways.

reread ...
.im not a breeder or a seller that has a setup already made for pictures im merely a guy that catches and raises snakes .

the [picture wasnt taken where the snake is now . i never claimed it was . in fact i openly stated that I dont have the set up for takign pictures . the date ont he picture is in november .thats when i moved the snake out of my home into its current location . since then i have stopped by to see the snake jsut to make sure shes still healthy and fed . i havent handled her . as you stated and i agree with , it would be a violation of store policy , insurance , and a few other levels as well . i have no desire to get them into trouble , or have to move my snake again . heck , if i counst have found somewhere to board her i would have donated her .im proud of how healthy and big she's growing and would like to be able to continue to watch her grow but right now i cant do that and accomplish my goals.. i had originally placed her as soon as i started gettign a responses regardign training . unfortunatly my first contacts didnt pan out . one didnt actually want to train me , but offered to forge the documents for $1500 . i neither have the money no would i do this is if did .the second was willing to offer training but was too far away .i want to do it right and legally and i have no problem putting the time in and learning from those with more experience than i . even if its not more experience it might be a more structured . If it came down to it id much rather donate the snake than have to give up training .but now i have found someone thats not going to charge me and is willing to tech me so im going for it . :scatter:

[Lonermon]

to all of you that seem so ardently on accusing me of dammaging the hooby . me , who has never tried to lie steal or cheat anyone on this board . every single day i see posts on this board about "reputable" dealers adn breeders ripping peopl off , sellign bad animals , lying about the animals their selling , refusing to answer questions about this animals and so on . with all that crap going on you wana stand ther and tell ME that IM ruining the hobby . me . a guy that doesn't sell any animals . has never tried to rip anyone off, nor have i ever been bitten or caused anyone else to be bitten . ive never encouraged others to own venemous snakes ,but i have encouraged others to own the more docile snakes . all i did was share a picture . i never advised anyone to free handle snakes . i never even said that it was smart or right .in fact i have never denied that it isnt . i have seen people defend a dealer that has repetedly done bad deals and yet you think that IM ruining the hobby ? i think your perspectives are way screwed up .and to the guy that posted that

It is great that you wanted to show everyone your snake but it is nothing unusual..... Infact most neonate cottons look exactly like that

um no the florida cottonmouth is different than the common eastern cottonmouth . and even if it looked like every other one , its still a very pretty snake and i wanted to share it . i can see now that i was wasting my time .

[Lonermon]

correction ... i stated

nor have i ever been bitten or caused anyone else to be bitten .

i misstated
ive never been bitten by a hot snake . i can honsetly say in the hundreds of snakes that ive handled i have been bitten . probably less than a dozen times though . :scatter:

[Gregg M]

Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times..... The mocc is beautiful as are all N. American pit vipers..... And you may not be a complete moron...... I still doubt you have a 189..... But you need to understand the serverity of the situation at hand..... Your photo post shows everyone this.....
0 respect for venomous snakes.
0 reguard for this hobby. Your actions can push banning.
0 regaurd for the resposable hot keepers that take every precaution.
0 respect for the laws in your area.
You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....

Now I have many friends here on the forum.... If I were to post a pic of me with a baby gaboon (or any hot) in the palm of my hands I would get the exact same reaction you got..... And with good reason..... And as for the bad dealers, they get theirs too.....

This is how I see you at this point..... You are a person that has very little knowledge on venomous snakes and venom..... You are misinformed as to the nature of these animals...... You lack respect for what they can do to you if you are bitten during freehandling...... You do not understand exactly what a bite to you can do to the rest of us that do the right thing by not putting ourselves in a situation like you do.....

I also see that you like these animals..... But unfortunatly, that is not enough..... You need to respect them...... And that is something you CLEARLY do not do..... Hopefully the person willing to train you will wake you up a bit..... I still cant see how a licensed keeper is willing to train you, knowing you take stupid risks like this.....
Anyway, good luck....

[Mustangrde1]

I will try and make this as short and to the point as possible.

Show me ONE newspaper article or ban on animals because or related to a BAD seller/store?

Yet I can Show you HUNDREDS of bad press and direct respocne attempts and Bans because of people who get bitten as the press will call it " thier pet snake"

Now do you see why whe do not condone the action and do react so fast to somone doing what WILL not might but WILL affect are rights and ability to keep the animal!`

[snakegetters]

You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....

For the most part I agree with you completely. As for this statement, it depends on how you define freehandling. I agree that there is no reason to "play" with a venomous snake as you would a nonvenomous one. That's just stupid. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who use animals as props for their personal ego, especially when they win Darwin Awards for their silliness.

However there are a few species that are physically fragile enough to require special measures for their veterinary care and even some routine husbandry handling, because they are at high risk of being injured or stressed to the point of severe debilitation if they are restrained. These are the animals I am likely to use my hands to lift rather than just a hook. I may use a bare hand on the lower midbody and a Kevlar gloved hand on the upper third if there is not a second person available to wield a python hook for better body support of the animal. Or a standard hook may be used just to lightly direct the head, with my hand and arm comfortably supporting the snake's weight.

I also don't normally use restraint to give routine injections. I generally just maneuver the head into a tangle of something to keep the business end occupied. It's annoying when using the aminoglycosides and other potentially nephrotoxic drugs because then you have to inject into the front end of the snake, and that gets a little trickier. Generally I resort to tubing for those procedures. But anything that isn't cleared by the renal portal route generally gets delivered as an unrestrained IM injection into the caudal end in adults of most species.

I don't really consider this freehandling, and I don't ever do it just for fun, but certainly there is a greater risk to the handler with these practices. I make the conscious choice to skirt a thinner edge of safety for myself so that I can optimize recovery in my patients and maintain some delicate species without stressing or injuring them. It is a pretty thin margin sometimes, and there are moments where I am within physical range to be bitten if my predictions about the snake's behavior are wrong. There are also times when I am not using any safety tools, but working mainly with my bare hands to minimize the risk of injury to the animal. Again, not something I would ever do just for fun. That's definitely not the point of the exercise.

I don't post pictures of some of the riskier techniques I use, because they may be misunderstood out of context as endorsing "daredevil" behavior around venomous snakes. I get endlessly frustrated because most people get the absolute opposite message from what I intend to convey. I just can't seem to explain in a way that most people understand that it's not supposed to be about the handler at all.

Most people seem to be solidly set in the egocentric mindset that it's all about the handler's skill and daring. That's all they are capable of seeing when they look at a photo of a cobra being gently nabbed behind the hood so that it can be given humane veterinary treatment without the need for rough pinning. They tend to see "Mighty handler masters the terrible cobra" in that kind of image, and that is the diametric opposite of what is actually happening here.

This is what I try to convey to people, without much success. I am not the important factor in this equation. Don't bother paying much attention to the human. The person doing the handling is not interesting and not relevant to what you should be learning from this scene. Focus on the special needs of the wild animal patient and the humane, gentle techniques being used to give good quality care without putting the animal at risk of injury. Most people can't understand this viewpoint and would rather stare at the Mighty Snake Master, which makes me annoyed and uncomfortable.

I feel that the whole concept of the "Mighty Snake Master" takes the focus away from the animals' comfort and welfare and makes them props for the human ego. I don't think that is healthy for either the snakes or the people working with them.

[Gregg M]

Well what I mean by freehandling is what we saw in the pic..... I do not see a reason to freehandle a mocc at all...... I guess there may be a couple of species that would be easily sressed when restrained like you said, but the big majority of snakes do not need a hands on approach...... The most hands on I ever needed to get was either tailing or with tubes....... The way I see it, is if it is mandatory to handle a hot in a less safe manner because of its delicate nature or is easily stressed by handling tools, so be it...... But if someone is doing it to take pics and to show off coloration or to just show off, that someone is showing no respect for the animal or this hobbys responsible keepers...... I do not wish a bite on anyone but I cant say I would feel bad if it did happen..... Thanks for the post Tanith..... Full of good info as usual...... :beer:

[Lonermon]

Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times..... The mocc is beautiful as are all N. American pit vipers..... And you may not be a complete moron...... I still doubt you have a 189..... But you need to understand the serverity of the situation at hand..... Your photo post shows everyone this.....
0 respect for venomous snakes.
0 reguard for this hobby. Your actions can push banning.
0 regaurd for the resposable hot keepers that take every precaution.
0 respect for the laws in your area.
You are also showing new people that cutting corners and freehandling might be OK in some situations but in reality there is no situation that calls for freehandling.....



This is how I see you at this point..... You are a person that has very little knowledge on venomous snakes and venom..... You are misinformed as to the nature of these animals...... You lack respect for what they can do to you if you are bitten during freehandling...... You do not understand exactly what a bite to you can do to the rest of us that do the right thing by not putting ourselves in a situation like you do.....

I also see that you like these animals..... But unfortunatly, that is not enough..... You need to respect them...... And that is something you CLEARLY do not do..... Hopefully the person willing to train you will wake you up a bit..... I still cant see how a licensed keeper is willing to train you, knowing you take stupid risks like this.....
Anyway, good luck....


since when are you qualified in speakign for everyone ?

ive got alot of respect for venemopus snakes and if you cant gather that from my posts then your really not reading them

my actions ? i posted one picture and the minute i realised that it offended anyone i removed it . you wanna threaten me with banishment for standing up to false accusations and slams on my character . i dont wanan be banned , but i will NEVER sit back and take crap without having my fair say . in real life or the internet i wont be abused and sit there silently . only on the internet i respond much more politely .

as for respect . i dont feel that i have disrespected anyone . if you feel that ive disrespected you by posting a picture then you have some issues that have nothjgin to do with me .

no respect for the laws in my area ? hmm you must have missed where i have repetedly mentioned that i no longer possess an illegal snake amd am willing to devote a huge chunk of my life (1000 hours to be exact) with no pay towards makign it legal for me to own a venemous snake .you also must have missed where i stated that i would in no way from this point on do ANYTHING to risk that legal right .

you might wanna look back . everythign i said has been an answer to a question or an accusation that you or one of your well respected friends has thrown out . are you honestly gonna sit there and tell me that i cant respond and answer the questiond that you have posed to me ? if your didnt want my answers or my comments then you shouldnt have said anythign . but i dont give a damn if your the forumn monitor or not , as i previopusly stated... you make an accusation agaisnt me , im gonna answer back . you ask me a question im g0onna answer .

as for what i do or dont know . you really have no possible way of knowing . the fact that i handled a snake in an impoprer manner doesnt mean that i know any less .you would assume that i couldnt possibly know having done that . well youd be wrong . nor as so many of you are assuming , does it mean that this is somethign that often do . in fact there jsut assumptions .

and i dont claim to know evertyhtng . in fact ive admiotted id like to learn more from others that have more formal training .

and so far all ive learned here is that people will see somehtign they dont like and turn it into a crusade based on there own specualtions and hair brained assumptions . and every time you post another accusation or try to psycho analise me or things that i have said . you only drive this point further home . you attack i resond . you dont liek the response dont launch the attack . buit dont for a minute imagine that i will sit idly by and keep my mouth shut . i have apoagised for offending others withthe picture , i have removed the picture , i have admitted that what i did wasnt wise . yet still you and others persist in haranguing me . and now you wanna threaten me with bannishment . :scatter:

[Lonermon]

I will try and make this as short and to the point as possible.

Show me ONE newspaper article or ban on animals because or related to a BAD seller/store?

Yet I can Show you HUNDREDS of bad press and direct respocne attempts and Bans because of people who get bitten as the press will call it " thier pet snake"


first .. show me hundreds . im nto arguing that they dont exhist , but you made the offer follow through . hey i have no dount that they do exhist , but id just like to take you up on your offer to show them to me .



Now do you see why whe do not condone the action and do react so fast to somone doing what WILL not might but WILL affect are rights and ability to keep the animal!`

now i see ??? which action are you talkign about . freehandling or me taking a picture ?if your speakign of freehandling then i dont disaggree .
if your talkign abou my picture , which isnt even there anymore and was only viewed by about 16 people . then your 100% wrong .that one picture will NEVER affect the rights and ability of anyone to possess or own venemous snakes . i personally guarantee it .and if by some strange chance you were meaning me freehandling snakes , again youd be 100% wrong . becasue from this point on the only time i will be handling snakes is while workign towards my license . and as i have alrady stated . theres no way in hell im gonna jeapordise that . im gonna do exactly as im told when im told and how il told to and no more . even if it means i clean cages and dont even touch another venemous snake untill i complete my training , then thats what ill do . so as i will not be freehandling any snakes thats a non issue .and trust me on this alothough i am looking foreward to having my permit i am NOT looking foreward to dealign with some of the more agressive and deadly snakes . :scatter:

[Lonermon]

[QUOTE=Gregg M]Ok, listen up..... You are right, the insults can be uncalled for at times.....

oh gee in that case just let me know which ones were called for so i know when to be offended. :scatter:

[thesnakeman]

DUDE!
You screwed up period! Not us, not them, ...you. You screwed up when you bare handed a venomous snake, you screwed up again when you took a picture of it. And you screwed up a third time when you posted it. So now you are feeling the heet. Well, that's o.k. because it's NOTHING compared to the heet you will feel when you get tapped. And if you don't wake up, admit you screwed up to yourself, and learn from this mistake, guess what? Sooner or later you will get tapped! Just prey that when it happens it's not by something a little hotter than that Moc. I tell you what. Go talk to Bill Haast about what it's like to get tapped. I know a kid who had the same attitude as you. A couple years ago, he got tapped by a Rihno Viper. They took him in the helicopter, and he was almost dead by the time he got to the hospital. And now he only has nine fingers. It only takes ONE mistake to cost you your life! And that mistake will take place in the blink of an eye. There is NO ROOM FOR ERROR!!! And when the press gets ahold of it, the Humane Society, and PETA will use that information to help them in their continuing effort to put a total ban on ownership of herps in this country. How do you suppose it is that your state got the current hot laws that it has? It got them because people do stupid things with snakes. So when you do something like this, it DOES effect us all. Therefore we all have the right to heet you up. Better you feel the heet from us, than from a venomous bite!
T.

[Lonermon]

So when you do something like this, it DOES effect us all. Therefore we all have the right to heet you up. Better you feel the heet from us, than from a venomous bite!

im sorry im not buying it . i refuse to admit that my picture ,which has been gone for over a week . has affected you in any way shape or form other than to give you the false impression that you can unabashedly "heet me up"

and i can prove you wrong 100%

that picture was taken in november .
since then it has not appeared in the news .
since then no one has looked at it and decided to get bit
since then it has not been the focus of any legislation to change the current laws in this state or any other .

that picture has had NO effect on the herp industry at all .

you wana go on and on about people gettign bitten . no one was bitten . no one will ever be bitten by that picture . i guarantee it . its jsut a picture .

out of respect i removed it .
maybe i should define that word as it seems so many people that post here have no concept of what it means except in relation to a snake .
it is possible to respectfully tell someone that what they did is wrong . a few people have done that . most of you dont seem capable of it .

to anyone that wants to or has told me that freehandling is wrong . hey no problem . ill agree to that . ill even admit that i shoundt have taken that picture .

you wanna tell me that posting a picture gives you the right to hurl personal insults ? go to hell. im not buying it . there are a few people that have managed to convey there displeasure without makign accusations , claiming to know what i know or think or what my "attitude" is.to all of you armchair psychics . keep your day job . casue you really havent a clue .

you wanna tell me ive got no respect for venemous snakes , heh , well youve never seen me catch an eastern diamondback . believe me , i have pleanty of respect . you wanan disagree go ahead . youd be wrong .

you wanan tell me ive dammaged the industry . bull**** .

in fact . had y'all not chosen to make such a federal case out of this the 16 people that saw the picture would likely have said " thats a nice snake " or "he shouldnt be doing that " and it would have ended there . had anyone ever said to me

" hey i dont liek that picture becasue it sends a bad image , the image that its okay to free handle snakes . would you please take it down "

i would have said
" damn i didnt think of that . your right . " and deleted it .
instead you all come on like a liek a pack of hyenias . throwing insults and making really stupid assumptions .

but no one did that . in fact it was my idea to remove it . and i did . and here we are a week later . and now im being told that some of the insults were okay. do you really think that you have anything to say on this matter that hasnt been said ? do you really think one more person telling me how im ruining the industy is gonna change anythign ?

ive already made the only change i can . i deleted the picture :scatter:

[thesnakeman]

Okeedokee. You want to be hard headed. Go right ahead. Be my guest. I will probably never read about it, or hear about it, but if you maintain your current attitude, sooner or later you will get tapped. My only regret is that you still don't seem to get it. I will unsubscribe myself from this thread after this, as you are obviously too upset to really hear what I'm trying to convey. But for those of you who are listening, I will share with you a bit of wisdom. You can take it, or leave it,....There are two kinds of people who handle hots. Those that have been bitten, and those that have not been bitten,... {YET}.

I will say this. I am sorry if you were offended by anything I said. It was not my intent to hurt your feelings. It was my intent to get your attention. But you asked for it. So I have no regrets. However, if you do not accept the advice we have offered, no matter how it made you feel, YOU may have some very serious regrets of your own some day when that mamba or taipan is latched onto you, and you feel yourself slipping into a deaths cold grip. I hope not. All the things I said, were designed to help you NOT to go down that road. But in the end, the choice is yours. Good luck! Your going to need it!

As far as anyone seeing the pic, or you having a negative effect on the herp scene, well,...maybe not this time. But when you get tapped we will all feel the reprecussions. Maybe not directly, but it will continue to erode the freedoms we enjoy. Their are a lot of people out there who would love to stop us from keeping any kind of snake all together. And every time some body gets bit, or releases a big burm into the wild, or scares somebody, or uses hots to guard their dope, or does anything with a snake that would send chills down the spine of the general public, it makes us all look bad, and it's just one more nail in the coufin of herpeticulture. So please don't let this mess get you into a tizzy. Just close your eyes, take a deep breath, and listen to the sound of your own heart beat. Then reflect on how good it is that you can still do that. And on how nice it is that we can all still keep snakes. Again, good luck, and please think about it.
T.

[Karen Hulvey]

Actually the picture has nothing to do with the media. What people are trying to tell you is that when you get tagged it will be very bad on the industry as a whole. And being careless will cause you to get bit.

I have read what you're writing too and I don't think you're comprehending anyone is saying. You keep harping on how that picture didn't harm anyone. No it didn't harm anyone. Yeah, only 16 people saw it. No it wasn't in the newspaper. If you had been bitten, then it would have been headline news.

It was the FACT that you chose to hold it in your bare hands that's the problem. The reason people believe you're going to get tagged is because of the picture. That snake's face was in the palm of your left hand. A completely careless act. Man, all it had to do was yawn and you could have been bitten. So what if it was cold, whoopteedoo. Someone got bit by a dead timber's bodiless head, I bet it was cold too.

[Lonermon]

Actually the picture has nothing to do with the media. What people are trying to tell you is that when you get tagged it will be very bad on the industry as a whole. And being careless will cause you to get bit.

I have read what you're writing too and I don't think you're comprehending anyone is saying. You keep harping on how that picture didn't harm anyone. No it didn't harm anyone. Yeah, only 16 people saw it. No it wasn't in the newspaper. If you had been bitten, then it would have been headline news.

It was the FACT that you chose to hold it in your bare hands that's the problem. The reason people believe you're going to get tagged is because of the picture. That snake's face was in the palm of your left hand. A completely careless act. Man, all it had to do was yawn and you could have been bitten. So what if it was cold, whoopteedoo. Someone got bit by a dead timber's bodiless head, I bet it was cold too.


oh i comprehend all right . but i think ( and i cant say for sure because unlike so many others on here i dont even pretend to be able to read other peoples minds) your missing my point . or points

i dont mind so much when im gettign jumped all over for somethign that i did do . hey i did it and i admitted it and i cant change what was done in the past .

but i keep gettign thrown in my face accusations of things that MIGHT happen . no matter how much you THINK ( and i mean a collective you ) you know whats gonna happen in the future . you dont . no one does

im not saying ill never get bit . hell i seriouly hope i dont . and im gonna do all i can to avoid it .

the personal slams . theres a world of difference between " what you did wsa stupid " and "your stupid" . even a smart person can be known to do stupid things now and then . if you ( again i mean collectively , no aiming at the person who wrote the post to which this is respondent) cant understand this . well ill jsut leave it at that .

the badgering . i answer one accusation and then the same person tries to find somethign else i did or said to pick at .

the second guessing . im so sick of hearing people telling me what i think , or know , or feel , or about my "attitude" or what im goign to do in the future . as no ta damn one of you knows me NO one is qualified to make these guesses. and jsut about every single time its done there dead wrong .

hey what i did was wrong . ive never said it wasnt . i honestly didnt think that people would focus on that aspect of the picture .my mistake .

so you have 2 halves . what i did wrong . and if

if this happens ...
if i get bit ....
if frogs had wings they wouldnt bump there ass when they hopped

i have no problem problem admitting what i did wrong .

but ill be damned if ill sit here and take flak for if

[Lonermon]

now i hope that y'all are done and we can let this drop . im spending way too much time on this which can be better spent reading posts with something posative to be gained from reading them . :scatter:

[Manhattan Herps]

ok..im not going to sit here and bash you...

but i must agree with gregg and everyone else 100%

handling a venomous snake no matter what it is, shows an enormous amount of stupidity..just because you see irwin on TV free handling mambas, or king brown..does not mean you can to...mocc may not have a vemon toxicity as high as a mamba, but it still deserves to be respected and treated as though it did, free handling one just to show off it's colors is completely idiotic, was there even anyone there with you?, probably not..

all snakes should be respected, venomous and large boids being at the top of the list, both can kill..and there are many careless owners out there, who have no supervision while handling a hot or a 22ft burmese python, no matter how "tame" the snake may be, it can still kill

there was a guy in i think..either california or florida, who had a female burmese python for 6 years, kept it in his basement, he went down to feed it in the morning, the snake struck at his arm, he them proceeded to take the burm out of its enclosure, which was a huge mistake..the snake wrapped itself around the ownder, and he was dead in 15 minutes.

his mistakes...going down alone, while your on the floor, whos going to put alchohol on the snakes face..or pour hot water on the snake to attempt to get the snake off of you

feeding without pliers or tongs, the snake sences and see's the heat of the arm. and the food item, if the guy would have used tongs..the snake would not have grabbed ahold on his arm..accosiating the heat from the prey item, to the cold of the metal tongs or pliers

the point here being that all snakes are unpredictable, so the next time you decide you want to show your venomous snakes coloring...dont hold it in your hands...

gregg, or anyone else, let me know if' ive left anything out..6:00am..havnt gone to sleep yet...lol

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

I think it might be a stretch to call a cottonmouth "deadly". While I won't argue that they can inflict a nasty bite, I live in an area abundant with cottonmouths and have not heard of a death in decades. Certainly the very young and the very elderly are at higher risk for a serious reaction, a normal healthy male doesn't have much risk of death. I, myself, would be more concerned about a reaction to the antivenin than the snakebite itself.

Considering that the U.S. averages 12 fatal snake bites per year, and 99% of those are from rattlesnakes, I think it's a stretch. You're much more likely to be killed by a dog or a bee sting.

How dare you use a means of factual basis for your argument. That's just outright cheating! Cottonmouths are deadly because (with completely disregarding other possible reasons or factors that could've perpetuated the death of someone bitten by a cottonmouth) people have died from being bitten by them so that justifies them as deadly.

A city allowing bee permits is totally justifiable because bees make honey and hospitals have epipens.

Only unlicensed dogs kill people. Licensed dogs don't actually kill people because licensed dogs are domestic and the government says domestic animals are ok to have as pets because the government is looking out for our best interest.

In my city you can't have any reptile because you can possibly run the risk of getting salmonella and not know how to treat it properly and die so really the ban on all reptiles is justified because they could carry salmonella and kill lots of people so technically all reptiles are deadly and that is totally not a stretch.

So you should stop with using facts as your argument because then arguments that don't use facts appear to be wrong and every argument that doesn't use facts is actually right.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Our hobby is under attack every day by zealots from PETA and The Humane Society because of irresponsible stuff like this. Every time some hot keeper gets bit, it makes the powers that be alittle more prejudice against us. And then they pass another stupid law which makes us ALL suffer. Please don't do this. I don't care if it's venomoid or not. It makes us all look bad, and it makes us all pay!
T.

Wait have I missed something? When did PETA and the humane society become experts on reptiles O_o?!?!

Those stupid laws, ah yes you mean that the laws are stupid because they are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. So why are so many people in the herptoculture shaking in fear not willing to stand up against laws or ordinances that have no justifiable means that prohibits us of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

I read somewhere that approximately 95% of the snakebites in the U.S. involve alcohol....and it ain't the snake that's drinkin'! :beer:

Don't blame alcohol. Alcohol is never the problem and there you go with those factual merits again.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Here is a legit question..... How can you justify freehandling a mocc.... And who told you they can not kill you...... There is a person that fequents thes forums that can tell you differently...... Infact he owns one that killed a person.... So you held the mocc in your hands to show off its colors???? I keep gaboons and never felt the need to hold them in my hands to show coloration..... That is just about the stupidest thing I have read yet..... And yes people like you do bad things for this hobby including getting it banned..... You will get bitten one day but I guess that is natures way of getting rid of bad genetics..... Too bad it impacts our hobby so much when some dummy gets bitten......

Would it be justification if showing that free handling certain individual venomous snakes of certain species show that they really aren't as horribly terrifying and utterly dangerous (if the right precautions are taken) as the uneducated majority think they are? You know the same people that call them poisonous snakes and agree to have them bannen on the basis of expertise knowledge or is it more realistically fear?

Wait so being bitten is nature's way of getting rid of bad genetics? Well what about all the "responsible" keepers that have gotten bit or even zookeeper who have gotten bit? Should venomous snakes be banned in Zoos?

Venom labs that make antivenom free handle venomous? Shouldn't they be scrutinized as irresponsible keepers?

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

I just hope the person who decided to train him knows that he freehandles venomous herps. Not because of machismo, of course, we all know that color shows better when subject is in hand, and not on some background that would highlight colors, but I digress. I would not want someone around my herps who was into freehandling, even if they say they won't, because you can't keep your eye on them the whole time, and the urge would be to great. Maybe he has found someone who is also into freehandling, there are people who do it, even some that are labled, arguably as experts.

So if a person can free handle venomous snakes without getting bit wouldn't that constitute a a level of true expertise? How is that arguably not an expert? I mean most snake handlers not even venomous handlers could pin a snake and choke it without getting bit. Handling venomous is definitely not for everyone and of course it should not be taken lightly with carelessness. Wouldn't the experts know what you can and cannot handle? The means of how to go about free handling without getting bit takes a lot of time, knowledge and skill? How do you argue that? On a hypothetical basis? What if, well what if this and what if that? Should we never drink water because what if a person drank too much water well hell it'd kill them. Well then the right to have firearms should be banned because what if you accidentally shot yourself. What if a sober person gets in a car accident should they never be allowed to drive a car ever again?

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

For someone that claims to have a 189 IQ you have some pretty poor spelling.....

Quite hypocritical on your part wouldn't you say since you "only buy animals from the best in the hobby that have the same "veiws"

With an IQ of 189 my guess is he has more important things to worry about than correct grammar about spelling and that I actually don't care as long as it's legible, I've wasted so much time going back and needlessly correcting spelling errors when I could be using that time better.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

The big majority of hot keepers do not free handle their hots...... There are a very very small number of people that do....

Do you know all the hot keepers in the US? Europe? And other countries? You know for fact that a very very small number free handle?

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

And if you must know, I only buy animals from the best in the hobby that have the same veiws on how these animals should be respected as I do....

So only the best in the hobby have the same "veiws" as you? Do you know any of the best in the hobby that have bred Mangshan vipers???

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

People like you just speed up the banning actually......

Actually when I read comments like these below I start to wonder who's side Gregg is on? :shrug01:

Plus free handling hots and photographing it is just about the stupidest thing one can do......

There is absolutly no good reason to free handle a hot......

Even medicating or force feeding a sick one can be done without beig so exposed to it......

No matter how you slice it your acts and reasoning are beyond dumb and do no good for this hobby that is slowly being taken away from us.....

When comments like this are made public it can only be used as ammunition to strengthen the argument to uphold any ban of keeping venomous snakes (which is technically unconstitutional especially when venomous snakes are being kept in locked cages in the privacy of your own home) because city governments will say look at Gregg an expert in ALL "poisonous snakes" and he acknowledges that poisonous snakes shouldn't EVER be free handled because of how too unpredictable and incredibly dangerous poisonous snakes are to let citizens keep them as pets. His comments testify that people who keep poisonous snakes are unstable because such extreme measures need to be taken to keep and handle these vicious creatures not any sane person would keep such a deadly creature that could go berserk at any moment inside their home. :shootfoot

Anyone really think city governments haven't thought of how they can create a tactical advantage to give credibility by posing as a "poisonous snake expert" to push and perpetuate the ban of venomous snakes?

Now Gregg may not be a wolf in sheepskin clothing but how he has formulated his comments of his opinion reveals to me that his expertise level of handling venomous snakes is limited and based off of assumptions and opinions :yesnod::thumbsup:

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Ehh... he mentioned Irwin as some kind of positive and took photographs of himself freehandling. The guy is clearly a moron. End of story. No debate. I have spoken.

Haha please riddle me how Irwin was not positive? Sound a little jealous :yesnod:

Besides you're stating your opinion as fact.

You are entitled to your own opinion,
You are not entitled to your own facts,
Base your opinions off of facts,
You'll never be wrong.

Ignorance begets confidence more frequently than does knowledge, is it those that know little and not those that know much that so positively assert that this or that problem can never be solved by science.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Okay so we've got a genius here. Apparently English is his second language because he can't spell, cannot use punctuation correctly and doesn't know where to use capital letters except when he NEEDS it. LOL

Why is it that I can tell by the way you wrote this comment thinking it was so clever you have one of those really obnoxious laughs. Yeesh.

[hhmoore]

Is there a reason that you just made 11 consecutive posts to a thread that had been dormant for 10 yrs?
I have no objection to people dragging up old threads to renew a discussion with constructive comments, new information, or even seeking information from participants...but making antagonistic posts to people that haven't even logged onto this site in over 5 yrs seems unnecessary. Worse, this seems typical of your recent posting style (yes, you'd already been noticed)

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Freehandling a venomous snake is asking to get bit. It will not be an accident if you get bit and it will be YOUR fault.

Still safer than riding horses. Riding horses is asking to get a spinal cord injury, head or various types of other unpleasant injuries. So horse accidents aren't really accidents because the person is asking to get hurt so it is THEIR fault.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Is there a reason that you just made 11 consecutive posts to a thread that had been dormant for 10 yrs?
I have no objection to people dragging up old threads to renew a discussion with constructive comments, new information, or even seeking information from participants...but making antagonistic posts to people that haven't even logged onto this site in over 5 yrs seems unnecessary. Worse, this seems typical of your recent posting style (yes, you'd already been noticed)

Sorry I didn't notice the date. Yes there was a purpose. Also I try to respond to each unfounded comment that caught my attention individually. Given how some of the comments were made how is a legitimate response not antagonistic? I'll PM you. Give me a little credit I switched over to the forum like you had asked to carry on a debate. But yes there is a definite purpose Mr. Moore to this argument and I'll finish it up.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Here's a story that proves that no venomous snake is "safe" to free handle:
(sorry but I couldn't find the newspaper clipping and I'm trying to get it from the newspaper) This happened in 2001 in Pilot Knob, Missouri. The snake was a timber rattlesnake.

Two guys killed a rattlesnake. They cut its head off. One guy took the head home and the other one took the body home. The one w/the head managed to get bit by the head while fooling around with it and his wife took him to the ER for treatment. According to the guy, it was about 1 hour after they killed the snake. Oh, they took the head to the ER too. Can you say stooopid.

Thank the Travel Channel for airing whichever outdoors camping show that the host was like if you see a rattlesnake like this while your camping, grab a large stick, pin it, cut the head off and bury it all while showing how he did it on camera. Made it look like as easy as a walk in the park. Telling people to mess with a wild venomous snake and try to kill it is definitely a remedy for disaster.

What you should do if you see a wild venomous snake. LEAVE IT ALONE.

I don't own venomous snakes, I'd like to have a copperhead some day and I don't want any more legislation or for that matter a total ban on them because of people like you who can't act responsibly and handle a hot correctly.

You don't own venomous snakes yet you think because you watched a friend who has venomous snakes how he cares for them that you're going to speak as if you're an expert on the subject on how to handle a hot correctly?

You post a story with stating that no venomous snakes are safe to handle yet you don't own any, have no facts to back up your argument and you have one friend who does a good job at preventing himself from getting bit with some nice cages and you're going to state your opinion as fact when you have no credible grounds to do so?

You do more harm than good for the venomous culture when you pose as an expert because you THINK you know what you're talking about. Legislators uses comments like yours to perpetuate the false validity to why bans are needed because you're disillusioned with what is called the Dunning Krueger effect. I wouldn't want someone handling venomous snakes either with that mentality if I feared snakes. Do the real experts a favor as with most of you who aren't truly experts, keep your do good but actual harmful comments to yourself and leave the venomous snakes handling to people who want to become real experts. Not just keep a venomous snake or two because they feel like a rebel bad ass.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Showing the public venomous snakes aren't as scary as people who fear them is what needs to happen. That will include free handling by those that have taken the time to learn how to correctly free handle venomous snakes by being careful but confident without being afraid. Free handling venomous snakes is not for everyone nor can anyone do it. Kind of like many things in life, hey what a coincidence. What you people should be doing is looking for experts that have taken venomous handling to a level of expertise that many venomous snake handlers fear and use them to promote why the minority of venomous keepers should be allowed to keep venomous snakes because they aren't as scary as everyone thinks they are. Should venomous snakes be respected? ABSOLUTELY but when so called experts need to keep them in a way that looks like we fear our snakes no wonder cities don't have any confidence in people keeping venomous and want to ban them.

Can venomous snakes be handled NUMEROUS TIMES WITHOUT BEING BIT? Obviously the answer is yes. Well to you who have such an opinion with no actual facts to back up your argument obviously disagree. Look at every other recreational activities where people get hurt and die and is quite the norm? Well all of that is legal and far more dangerous than free handling venomous snakes. Not all venomous snakes can be handled given the individual but that shouldn't put fear in to promoting not free handling any venomous snakes much less chastise the ones who do.

BTW I've been free handling since age 16 and never been bit while free handling.

[Lucille]

Showing the public venomous snakes aren't as scary as people who fear them is what needs to happen. That will include free handling by those that have taken the time to learn how to correctly free handle venomous snakes by being careful but confident without being afraid. Free handling venomous snakes is not for everyone nor can anyone do it.

They would remain as scary to all the people who can't freehandle, who realize that it only takes one bite for injury or death to occur. And for the confident but not afraid freehandlers? That one bite can still happen.
I think that many have an entirely different perspective of those who keep venomous with all the usual precautions, handle with a hook, etc. and those who freehandle especially in public, with no precautions.

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

A lot of people I've educated on snakes aren't as afraid once they have a better understanding of snakes. For whatever reason people think snakes will attack unprovoked if it sees them which is simply not true and once that is established many friends who had a fear of snakes are curious to know more about snakes. In general people are highly afraid of what they don't understand and can't comprehend. Educating the public in a positive approach without trying to make people uncomfortable is necessary to get the majority to understand venomous snakes are not programmed to bite people any chance they get.

Respecting what a venomous snake is capable of and being afraid of it are two different things. A free handler cannot be afraid of the individual snake he or she is holding. It takes a lot of time, patients and understanding of the venomous snake that is to be free handled. Not all venomous snakes have the same temperament.

Free handling is not throwing precaution into the wind. There are a lot of precaution factors that play a role in free handling. Not every venomous snake can be free handled and the ones that can't that are highly irritable and cranky give warning signs that they just want to be left alone. I've taken many of the recommended precautions with gloves, hook large sized cage etc. Keeping venomous is not as scary as it sounds and should be done by those who have a true passion and have done their homework.

There are risks with a lot of recreational activities that it only takes one time you can die or get seriously injured and they are all legal.

[Lucille]

Nathan,
I think this is one of those deals where we will have to agree to disagree.
But I have to compliment you on this last post here. Unlike earlier ones which seemed defensive and strident, this in is somewhat reasonable (I just don't agree).
And I appreciate that you put together a paragraph instead of a string of one liners each in a different post.