fecals ? (how fresh)

[groovygeckos]

hi looking for anyone who knows . how fresh a sample needs to be to find ANYTHING ? also for others what are your veterinarians recomendations on this ? i work w/ Leopard and AFT Geckos , being nocturnal is it very hard to get fresh samples . also would it be needed , to take samples from each an every animal ? in my QT racks the geckos are separate ,BUT are two per shelf , and the tubs are side by side . i keep one rack for each group from each of a few different breeders and work with each group seperately . all seem healthy , eating , w/ good weight gain . i wonder what others think about taking representative samples for animals aquired within a 2- 6 month period (the ones ive had the longest @ 8 mo`s , have been checked and are seperate )? or should i be checking an entire collection @ $20 per fecal ? and what about routine checks? say yearly . should those be representative samples ?

[robin d.]

the fresher the better, some will say fresh refrigerated by thr cooling process whether in the fridge or freezer could kill, contaminate or compromise the result of the fecal. so the hotter, the better. it is good to do routen fecals some pople check the entire colony while others just check if they see some sort of problem, loose bowels, blood in stool, parasites in poop, discolored poop, extra smelly poop. some others do their own fecals and if they come across something suspicious or they can not identify then they take the leo to a vet for a better fecal and evaluation. then i know others whom worm once a year (precautionary) and i know others that only worm, if its needed

[groovygeckos]

thanks robin for the reply :wavey:

[Glenn Bartley]

The fresher the better. Drying and temp extremes do destroy some parasites and the ability of someone to find them in an exam.

As to how many animals in your collection from which to take samples, I would recommend:

1) This is a MUST - Sample any animals that appear ill or that seem to have unhealthy stooles.

2) As a routine operation sample all animals in a small collection if you are worried about them at all, do this once or twice per year.

3) As a routine operation, once or twice yearly, take a random sample of fecal specimens from your collection, this is cost effective especially if a large collection. A random sample should be at least 10% up to about 15%.
While random sampling will not let you know if any particular animal is infested by parasites, it may give you a fairly good clue as to how the entire population is doing.

4) If your animals seem healthy, sample any and all new animals or at least quarantine them for a few months, if you have an expensive breeding population.

If any animals in your established collection come up as parasitized, then shotgun treatment of the whole colony may be well advised. This would be especially true if the type of parasite discovered is one that has a direct as opposed to indirect reinfestation/life cycle.

Of course you can take samples from all of your animals, but I get the idea you may have more than a few and that could become cost prohibitive.

[groovygeckos]

thanks alot . thinking of taking representative lump sample from each group from each breeder at this point . and "shotgun" treat any infected-group if needed .
i am up to around 40+ animals and its $30 a pop IF i can produce a sample . this has been VERY VERY hard to accomplish . otherwise it will up to $80 each for them to be seen and samples taken .
please note if i was not in the off season for work , i would take every last one in to get the freshest sample possible (best results ). and treat each individually if there are any problems .
each "group" is quaranteened from each other group as my collection grew quickly in a short period .
i really need to be able to produce samples myself at this point .

anyone have any suggestion on how to obtain a fresh sample from a Leopard Gecko ?

- soaking them has not worked for me once , and has been very frustrating and im sure it has been stressfull to them .

- they seem to "go" in the evening (after the vet closes) and it will be pretty old and usually pretty dry by morning

in the future i plan to have animals tested closer to there aquisition .
i wish i had done that before , as i would not be so far behind in having this done now .

[groovygeckos]

from what you are both saying im guessing it is fairly safe to "worm" as precaution once a year ? or if a representative sample is "dirty" they all should be treated ?
i mean if some have worms and some dont , there will be no ill effect on the "clean" ones ? (from say Panacure, Flagyl (for "bugs") , or Albon ( for coccidia) )

i had a case of pins in a 2 geckos , the vet dosed them (and charged extra) on two occasions , he gave them both "panacure" and strongid (that i think is for tapeworm ) that i found odd .
all of the extra cost to look at the feet ,nose, eyes , etc. and tell me they look good . i know this lol
they were growing well , shedding well , eating well up to the point i brought them in they just slowed down and this was at that time of year for them to do so . just didnt seem right , lost only a slight amount of weight
i "examine" my own weekly and look for problems dont feel it needed for him to do the same w/ the high cost involved .
i only need fecal exams , not bloodwork , or visual inspection
i basically want to treat them myself with the help and analysis from my vet . also to try to learn to do fecals (routinely) at some point later on .

[groovygeckos]

the above says strongid as a drug name . it is actually droncit . my fault

[robin d.]

yeah panacure is used to treat pins and droncit to treat tapes... strongid is used to treat strongilids (sp?)
you may ask if you can drop off a fecal to be tested. treating pins is very simple and the medication very easy to come by. Pins are one of the most common parasites on insectivorious animals.
If you have a chance try to find some info on what kind of microscope you will need. doing fecal floats are easy, for basic stuff and if you see anything youre not used to seeing then you can take the animal to a vet.

[robin d.]

also, blood tests on reptiles is like a science LOL it is not easy and puts allot of undue stress on the animal... MOST but not all parasitic problems, bacterial infections or virus's can be determinded by a fecal (those you of you that saw that typo LOL)... not all and most of the ones that cant be can only be identified post mordom through a necropsy... but remember there are the exceptions to the rule, so to speak

[groovygeckos]

i have it setup where i can just drop fecals off , the problem is getting a fresh enough sample to the vet . they pretty much "go" in the evening after the vet closes . it normally would be dry by morning .

am i wasting my time ( would like to get the best results ) if i put it in a bag and it sits for 12 hours until i can drop it off ? thats basically what ive been thinking

i have not been able to get a sample by soaking the geckos at all .

its pretty frustrating , i just want to have some piece of mind , and to know for sure how my "kids" are doing .

[robin d.]

the hotter the better, even if you have to take it later just catch a fresh one put in a ziplock almost all the way sealed but where some air can get in (you dont want that hot steamy wet turd to start growing mold or fungus in a nonventalated bag) and bring it to em as soon as you can even if it is the next morning.... leave it at normal room temps... do not freeze or refridgerate that could compromise the female more so than leaving it at room temp. if its a little dry they can still do a fecal just fresher samples give you the most accurate results

[paulv]

I guess this only comes with experience, but how do you know what is a normal looking fecal and which is not.
I just got a microscope and I am trying to figure this out. Some of my gecko's have got worms (busy treating them). I took a sample from the ones with worms and the ones without. I could not see a distinct difference.
Ordered a book on reptile parasites, maybe that will help. Is there any websites that could help in the mean time?

thanks

paul