NERD supports Voids and plays with them

[crazycorn]

Taken from their forum without permission.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd2.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd2.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd4.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd5.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd6.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd7.jpg

[crazycorn]

More.....
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd8.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd9.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd10.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/bcfos/nerd11.jpg

[FreakOfNature66]

Personly I think that its their choice to do that.
I wouldnt buy one and I dont agree with it but I dont think that makes their snakes worth anyless and I dont think anyone has the right to tell them what to do. I mean for christ sakes look what all the hot keepers already have to deal with. Hot or not its their choice. Isnt useing someones pictures without permission against the law? I dont really know just curious your not saying its your but still. No Offense Please. Just my thoughts.

[Jim O]

David,

Do you want to give us some context on these photos?

And yes, they are copyright and since you copied them without permission that is a no-no.

[reptilemama]

Don't quote me, because I'm not 100% sure, but I think I heard/read that all of NERD's void are/were rescues.

[Dennis Hultman]

Yes, I second that. Context please!
So far you have stated you’re a picture thief. Now prove your statement that they support Voids and the context of the pictures you have stolen.

Thanks in advance.

[Dennis Hultman]

Oh, I see! You rated NERD negative on the Good Guy Certification.
So you’re playing games. Well if you had a bad experience with them post it on the BOI, instead of acting like a coward!

[crazycorn]

I personally think it is a no-no to handle voids in such a way, many others think that to. I didn't copy the photos someone else did and I just posted them here. Even a void has the possibility of regeneration of their glands and can still deliever a naty bite wheter its venomous or not. More can be found at http://thereptileroom.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3199&st=0&#entry30590

[Lucille]

David:
We all have our opinions on voids. Myself, I am against them. HOWEVER, you reprinted pix that were removed from a site without permission, and admit to it; that is not a good thing to do. Further, we have no context to form an opinion. Even the folks who are anti void will by and large find a place in their heart to accept one in a rescue circumstance.

[crazycorn]

I understand, but I am in no way a thief, I have plenty of my own photos to represent my animals. I felt this should be brought to attention here and I posted them here. I have very strong opinions about Voids and showing them at party is NOT a safe thing to do at all, it will only bring on worse things for hot keepers. I accept anyones opinions but this is just asking for trouble IMO.

[crazycorn]

BTW Dennis, sorry I missed your post... I am NOT playing games. I DO feel they are worthy of at least 1 "Bad Guy" mark under the circumstances. Also I don't take well to being call a coward, you may do so by email but in the context I get from your post I feel you are being incredibly rude, again JMO. go ahead correct if I am wrong really I hope I am because I would expect more of a better demeanor of you from reading your posts.

[Dennis Hultman]

BTW Dennis, sorry I missed your post... I am NOT playing games. I DO feel they are worthy of at least 1 "Bad Guy" mark under the circumstances. Also I don't take well to being call a coward, you may do so by email but in the context I get from your post I feel you are being incredibly rude, again JMO. go ahead correct if I am wrong really I hope I am because I would expect more of a better demeanor of you from reading your posts.

The "Good Guy Certification forum" is usually for people who have done business with each person listed there. When I had seen that you posted a negative there, I assumed that you actually have done a transaction with them. If not, then my mistake.

I personally have the same opinion as you when it comes to Voids and have posted such many times. I still wanted to know the context and it appeared that you were posting this thread as a result of a bad transaction with NERD. Which if true, would be cowardly thing.

[crazycorn]

I have never done a transaction with NERD, sorry if it seemed that way. I do not know the context in which they were originally posted as I do not have membership to their forum on their website, if you are interested why not go and look. I don't plan on doing so myself. I am sorry I misused the "Good Guy Certification Forum" if you feel the need and can go ahead and remove that point. I am sure all that needs to be said has been done so in these photos. I also admit I should have just posted a link, but again links get old and seem to have ways of disappearing.

[Cat_72]

Perhaps if YOU do not even know the context in which they were originally posted, it wasn't such a good idea to post them here and add your own thoughts to them......which COULD be far from the truth.

I have strong feelings against voids myself, but I don't think I would have made a post like this without knowing for CERTAIN what those pictures were all about.

[shrap]

I do not know the context in which they were originally posted as I do not have membership to their forum on their website, if you are interested why not go and look. I don't plan on doing so myself.


Don't you think it is up to YOU to prove your claims? You come on here and accuse people of very specific things but have no proof of those things, only assumptions, and then tell other people to go and find out for themselves whether you assumptions and accusations are true?

In the future you should really try to get the details and facts BEFORE you accuse people of things.

[Jim O]

David,

Let me tell you what I see and what I surmise from this. I see a bunch of people handled what appear to be venomoids. Two of them are wearing NERD t-shirts which are available to the general public for sale at http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerdwear.html.

For reference, the front of the t-shirt is http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerdstuff/shirt_front.jpg and the back is http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerdstuff/shirt_back.jpg.

Without context, that is ALL that I see. Oh, and I see 16yo a poo slinger of a kid who openly states
I do not know the context in which they were originally posted as I do not have membership to their forum on their website and goes on to say if you are interested why not go and lookMembership there is free. Perhaps you should have signed up and made certain that you knew what you were talking about before potentially exposing yourself and your parents (yes David, they are civilly liable for your libel, if this is libel -- which I suspect) to a lawsuit.

Also you are admitting to using stolen pictures. All around, you are the one with the big thumbs down. Oh, and by the way, if you were a man, and maybe someday you will be one, you would have informed them in advance of this post.

[crazycorn]

Jim O, I am well aware of the liabilitys and such, but thanks for trying to educate me. As for the name calling I do not believe we need that, I have not done name calling I just gave my OPINION. As for the context, its was show for a fmaily that NERD did for them, they do shows you know ;).

[Cat_72]

Hm, there's something I never thought of.....so, if you have never even been to the site, (you said someone else sent you the pics, I believe), how do you even know for certain they are on the site? I mean....like Jim said, ANYONE can buy a NERD TShirt.....

Wow......you parents are going to be ticked if they get sued over your lack of judgement in flying off the handle and starting this whole thread.

[PaulSage]

I don't want to give the appearance that I'm taking sides here, but I have to admit that I am personally a little confused by all of this. First of all, let's remember that David is only 16 so I think he is still at an age where he deserves a little leniency regarding the appropriateness of his post.

Second of all, I admit that I'm a little curious as to why it's wrong for him to have reposted these pictures. He did give credit as to where they came from, and I've seen a number of other posts here where people have copied a picture, whether it be from a questionable classified ad or another website.

To be honest, I don't know 100% about what's legally right and wrong when it comes to pictures on the internet, so if someone could provide some clarification I would greatly appreciate it. I understand that it's wrong to take credit for someone else's pictures, but I don't see David doing that here.

Like I said, I'm not taking sides. But like others have said in another recent thread regarding a minor, let's teach him what's right and wrong before we jump to criticism.

Thanks.

[Dennis Hultman]

"NERD supports Voids"
That is your statement presented as a fact. Not stated as an opinion. You need to back up your statement.

[crazycorn]

I do not suport it as a FACT but an OPINION.

[crazycorn]

Hell, I am not suprised I am getting my butt chewed out on here, if it were elsewhere it would be more accepted. Hell if it bothers you so bad delete the thread and give all the negative points you want, I am getting plenty of them this morning.

[Cat_72]

The only comment I made on the photos is that he himself said he has no idea what the context behind the photos is......he shouldn't be making all of these accusations without even knowing himself. He didn't even go to the site to look, he's just taking someone else's word on it.

In other words.....he should know his facts before saying things that could be labeled as libelous.

[Jim O]

Paul,

All photos are automatically copyright and cannot be used or reused without permission. In a case like this, technically David would also need the consent of the parties in the photos unless they had signed a release since allegedly this was a private, as opposed to a public, event. So, whoever owns the pictures has had their images used without permission (as the boy admits) and the people in them have had them posted in the world wide web without a release.

[Rebel Dragons]

David, did it ever cross your mind to contact NERD and perhaps ask them if the pictures in question are theirs? And then maybe ask for an explanation of what everyone is seeing in those pictures?

I think that would have been a better first step. Then once you received your answer you would have been able to make a post here with context and facts to back up your statements. Your opinions would have been received better too.

[crazycorn]

He did give credit as to where they came from, and I've seen a number of other posts here where people have copied a picture, whether it be from a questionable classified ad or another website.
Yes I never stated they were mine, I stated where they came from and a thread stating such. I also am not making any money off of them so there is not much of a court case. But hey they can try and see if it works not like they are going to get anything from my poor family.

[Cat_72]

I do not suport it as a FACT but an OPINION.

Stating that "NERD supports voids" is not stating it as an opinion....it may very well mislead someone into believing it is a proven factual statement. If you were to say that you believed from the pictures that they do, sure, that's more of an opinion.

But EITHER WAY, I would have had the sense to research the facts before even FORMING an opinion.

[Jim O]

Jim O, I am well aware of the liabilitys and such, but thanks for trying to educate me. As for the name calling I do not believe we need that, I have not done name calling I just gave my OPINION.I doubt that you even have a clue about liabilities but maybe I am wrong. As for name calling, I did nothing of the sort. I referred to you as a "poo slinger". If this isn't slinging poo I don't know what is. So, to quote you, "I just gave my OPINION". Now run along little dogie. Your mama's calling.

[crazycorn]

their watching the thread why don't they own up and say if they are true photos or not. I also belive the sourcE I got them from, he doesn't have much gain in it either.. Yes that would have been a better path but a little late now.

[Cat_72]

I'm sure by now, someone from NERD has been made aware of this post, I'm eagerly waiting to see what they have to say....hopefully they can clear things up for all. :)

[Dennis Hultman]

Like I said, I'm not taking sides. But like others have said in another recent thread regarding a minor, let's teach him what's right and wrong before we jump to criticism.

Thanks.

Paul, I thought about but he thinks he is a big tough “MAN” at 16 by his past posts he can stand on his own two feet.

I am hoping to make it to Daytona this year, I wonder if he will be there? I am not the one to brag but I am a large and almost scary guy, I would love to give him a talk and maybe help some people get their money.

I would love to pay this guy a visit, I live right up the road from him and I got to Boca often. I would love to know his 'partner' that is up here where I live and talk to him.

[Rebel Dragons]

Hell, I am not suprised I am getting my butt chewed out on here, if it were elsewhere it would be more accepted. Hell if it bothers you so bad delete the thread and give all the negative points you want, I am getting plenty of them this morning.


Crazycorn is at reputation level 10 -49

Where are these negative points you have been receiving? Looking over the thread and who is here posting I find it hard to believe that you are still green and not red. If your statement is true. Most people here with one negative hit can send you into the negative 100's some even into negative 200's.

Care to share a screenshot of who has hit you with negative feedback?

[crazycorn]

'Poo slinger' is name calling thank you very much, just like I was to turn around and call you a bully, its a name. Yes I do know about liabilities, I thought as to wheter I should post a link or the pictures late last nice and decided that most people would prefer the photos, look at the link to them. They are not on my server or a host I go through either.

[Jim O]

Yes I never stated they were mine, I stated where they came from and a thread stating such. I also am not making any money off of them so there is not much of a court case. But hey they can try and see if it works not like they are going to get anything from my poor family.Now you have proven you know nothing about liability. You don't need to make money. All you need do is damage someone else's reputation and you are laible. Lesson number one.

If they chose to sue you and your parents, and I doubt they will but if they did and they won, they could garnishee your parents' paychecks every week until the debt was satisfied. If you are that "poor" then even $25 each week from each paycheck would hurt. Lesson number two, smartass.

And that time I really called you a name. Lesson number three.

Any other questions that I can help you with?

[crazycorn]

Sure I will get a SS, I have two so far...

[Dennis Hultman]

Crazycorn is at reputation level 10 -49

Where are these negative points you have been receiving? Looking over the thread and who is here posting I find it hard to believe that you are still green and not red. If your statement is true. Most people here with one negative hit can send you into the negative 100's some even into negative 200's.

Care to share a screenshot of who has hit you with negative feedback?

No need. I hit him with negative feedback for telling me to go look it up myself.

[Jim O]

their watching the thread

I'm sure by now, someone from NERD has been made aware of this post, I'm eagerly waiting to see what they have to say....hopefully they can clear things up for all. :)Yes they have been made aware. I sent the following this morning to Kara.
Good morning Kara,

There is a thread with negative accusations about NERD at Fauna at http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70169 that you may want to consider responding to.

Best regards,

Jim Ohlstein

[Rebel Dragons]

No need. I hit him with negative feedback for telling me to go look it up myself.


Lol, I was just wondering because with his present feedback status, it looks like he has never received feedback either way. 10-49 is where everyone starts at.

Although I can see why someone might want to hit him with negative......

[Cat_72]

Hehehe, ooops......I saw that AFTER my post. :slamit:

Thanks, Jim.

[crazycorn]

Here you go, I am surprised its not more by now....

[PaulSage]

Paul, I thought about but he thinks he is a big tough “MAN” at 16 by his past posts he can stand on his own two feet.

Thanks Dennis, I agree that should be taken into consideration. I didn't think to research his earlier posts. So that leaves me with a little advice for David: It's usually best to contact the person originally posting such controversial photos to find out their stance on an issue such as voids before you make a post stating someone else's opinion for them.

Jim, thanks for the clarification on the copyright info. :cool:

[crazycorn]

They can take out of my pay then for that ammount, I work to support my family and if they want they may, hell I will paypal them weekly if they want,,,

[Cat_72]

Ah, not at a membership level where you can see who you got it from.

I have restrained myself so far.

[Jim O]

David, the bashing you are taking is your own doing. I am not happy with what I see in the pictures either but the plain fact is you can't make accusations without a factual basis.

On another note, you saidTaken from their forum without permission.and then you saidI understand, but I am in no way a thiefWhat do you call someone who takes something that belongs to someone else without permission?

[crazycorn]

This is where it started....

[crazycorn]

I simply coppied them from another thread, I did not steal them myself. Enjoy it Jim, I could care less just wasting time before I go to work....

[Cat_72]

Now WHERE in that does it say they SUPPORT VOIDS???? Uh, they could very well be showing their RESCUED voids, using them as an educational tool?

Sigh.

[Rebel Dragons]

This is just a simple situation of, look before you leap.

Unfortunately David, fell a few hundred feet onto jagged rocks............

[Dennis Hultman]

This is where it started....

Well you should have let Brian come post it here, If it is his pictures and wanted it to go off TRR.

[crazycorn]

Stating they support them may be a bit extreme but taking them to a show IMO is pretty close. Also....

[Jim O]

This is where it started....Was there any supporting documentation?

Also, judging by your "Bookmarks Toolbar" you seem to know well how to sign up for at least 5 internet forums. So your comment that you aren't a member at NERD's site was a childish cop out, typical of a boy younger than you. Oh, and yes, I guess that was another invective.

And stealing stolen items is still stealing.

[NewEnglandReptile]

Yes, there are venomoids here. Are we going out & actively purchasing them & spending money on folks to make them? No. Some were bought several years ago from a single individual who is no longer in the reptile business. More recently, others were acquired from NH State F&G confiscations - they bring us confiscated reptiles that would otherwise be euthanized, and some have just been surrendered directly to our facility, along with venomous animals that are also here. Those particular animals are all under lock & key since we have limited background info on them.

The context of those photos was from a reptile show @ our store last weekend, at which we displayed a variety of animals - giant pythons, croc & water monitors, tortoises, etc - and brought out some of the venomoids for pictures later that day. No one is saying "here go get a cobra for a pet." What is being said is that snakes are not horrible, terrible, out-to-hurt you animals that should be killed w/o consideration, because we get several "hey I killed a snake in my yard" calls every week. Could this have been done in a better manner? Sure - I won't disagree with that. Not everyone sees eye-to-eye on everything that happens here, both externally & internally.

Just my $.02

Kara

[crazycorn]

Telling me what 'I should have done' isn't going to change anything..... Oh well... I am still waiting to hear from them.. Prove it to me I am wrong and I will ADMIT I am wrong.

[Jim O]

I see now someone else's hearsay who clearly has an axe to grind. Though I would like to hear a response from NERD.

[Cat_72]

Thanks so much for the clarification, Kara.

Now if this youngster would have just come to you and asked, I think this whole nasty thread could have been avoided.....I'm sorry you even had to deal with it.

[crazycorn]

Thanks for clearing it up, I was wrong, you may not presently support voids, but that IMO was down right wrong and could have been very serious as many others think also.

[Cat_72]

Telling me what 'I should have done' isn't going to change anything..... Oh well... I am still waiting to hear from them.. Prove it to me I am wrong and I will ADMIT I am wrong.

I think we're ALL waiting......and I think you owe Kara an apology as well.

[Jim O]

I see now someone else's hearsay who clearly has an axe to grind. Though I would like to hear a response from NERD.I guess that we did while I was posting. Thanks for the input Kara.

[Rebel Dragons]

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh'


BAMM, SPLAT, CRACKLE, POP, BANG!!!!!


Ewwwwww I bet that hurt.

Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.

[crazycorn]

Okay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned.

[crazycorn]

*sounding

[Jim O]

A retraction of the "Bad Guy" at http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65172 would also be in order.

[Rebel Dragons]

Okay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned.

Now that my young friend, is showing some maturity. :)

[crazycorn]

Has been done...

[Jim O]

Now that my young friend, is showing some maturity. :)Yes it is. I am almost tempted to give him postive rep points for it. :bolt01:

[crazycorn]

I will admit to making mistakes, trust me we all make them and I have made plenty.

[Jim O]

I will admit to making mistakes, trust me we all make them and I have made plenty.Yes we all have. Actually there is a quote from someone here and I cannot remember who said it but it has stuck with me since I read it the first time. It goes something like "an error is not a mistake unless you don't learn from it". Quite apt IMO.

[crazycorn]

I have too seen that quote, that and "A mistake is a mistake until you admit you are wrong".

[Rebel Dragons]

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh'


BAMM, SPLAT, CRACKLE, POP, BANG!!!!!


Ewwwwww I bet that hurt.

Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.




Damn, now I feel bad for pushing him off that cliff.

Ummmmm 911, Ummmm someone............fell off a little rock thingie. No, no I can't see that far. Ummmm, I, I, mean there's a tree in my sightline. Yes , you better send a chopper instead of an ambulance. My name? It's ummmmmm Jim, yes Jim............................ :rofl:

[Gary O]

Hello everyone

Ok there is a problem I see. And it is not NERD having voids. I couldn't care less that they have them. as stated they were took in as rescues. I say GOOD FOR THEM!

My problem

Why do you have to have hands on with a void? Lets say that gaboon turned and bit the kid. It would hurt like hell even if it could not produce venom. But lets say the kid did need metical treatment. I promise you it would make the paper as 90% of bites do and it would not say. Venomoid gaboon bite. It would say Deadly gaboon bites kid at a local herp show at NERD! It would not have to be a kid. It could have been any adult and then in the sue happy world NERD getting sued for a HOT bite not a void bite.

There is no classification(sp) for a void bite.......... It would say the species and if it is a hot species you guessed it it would be logged as a hot bite.

You can read my posts on my site. I am not shocked that nerd has voids. EVERYONE knew that. They say they got them from rescues. I am not going to call them liars. They say they got them that way then they did. But to have a hands on show with voids is wrong IMO. Does that mean everyone here should think the way I do? NOPE. It is my opinion and you need to form your own.

Voids give you a false feeling of security. But all it takes is one bite from a "void" that is trully hot. You get bite by a "void" cobra and you think ah it is a void who cares. You do not seek medical attention. But wait it delivered a hot bite. You waited valuable time thinking you were fine and now need to rush to the hospital and hope they get the AV in time.

So many things can go wrong with hots or "voids" open to public like that IMO

and that is my only problem. I see it as a I am cool type thing, see what I can do with this cobra or gaboon. We are one of the best breeders and we can do it. That may not be what NERD ment to come of this. But this is what I take from it. again it is my opinion.

[shrap]

Prove it to me I am wrong and I will ADMIT I am wrong.


Lol...

You still do not get it. There is a very important lesson to be learned here. When you make accusations about people it is YOUR responsibility to prove your own accusations to be true. Not ours.

Anyway, after seeing Kara's post I hope this lesson sank in a little bit. This thread should never have been started.


Paul Sage,

Sorry dude but at 16 he is more than old enough to know better. My 10 year old knows better. It seems to me that he thought he had a sure fire hot topic and could not wait to see the fireworks start. Only it blew up in his face.

Lesson learned I hope.

[sirenofthestorm]

So wait, there's no concern at all over kids free handling voids in the hot forum? At all? Wow.

(And by the way, just in advance, thanks to anyone who gives me negative reputation points for raising a SAFETY concern about a well known breeder.) *rolls eyes*

[PaulSage]

Paul Sage,

Sorry dude but at 16 he is more than old enough to know better. My 10 year old knows better. It seems to me that he thought he had a sure fire hot topic and could not wait to see the fireworks start. Only it blew up in his face.



You're right Sammy. I see that now. At first when I saw "crazycorn" I was thinking of "corncrazy" who is someone I had a very pleasant transaction with. I thought that he was maybe their kid or something, so I was a little biased when I posted about granting him some leniency.

He has certainly dug himself a hole here, and when you light fireworks off inside a pit, they're bound to "blow up in his face". Some people just want to make waves, and then sit back and hope the tsunami that results doesn't flood their way. Lol... so now he's lighting fireworks off inside a flooded hole that he dug himself! Don't you just love expressions? :rofl:

[KelliH]

Wow. What message does it send a child when he or she sees it is ok to touch a gaboon viper, or have their picture taken with a cobra or whatever it was.

Gary is right, if one of those animals bit someone, first of all it's going to hurt like hell (think long fangs), second of all what if the media gets ahold of it?

I don't think the young man that brought this here should be the one being scrutinized here, it is NERD that should be. What the hell were they thinking?

One doesn't need to use venomoids to educate folks that snakes aren't yucky/scary/horrible animals at an event such as the one that took place. Pleanty of other non venomous snakes can achieve the same thing.

Sounds like some are rescues and some NERD actually purchased from someone. Either way. My advice to them is: don't go playing with your venomous/venomoids is public like that. That's wrong and at least one person at NERD knows that damn well. Perhaps that person can talk some sense into the other people (person) at NERD and this won't happen anymore. No offense meant to anyone, this is just how I see it. Maybe I am wrong and it is ok, I dunno.

OK, back to my hellish existance again. Just had to post something on this one though. Couldn't believe the tongue lashing the originator of the thread was getting, sheesh.

[Dennis Hultman]

So wait, there's no concern at all over kids free handling voids in the hot forum? At all? Wow.

(And by the way, just in advance, thanks to anyone who gives me negative reputation points for raising a SAFETY concern about a well known breeder.) *rolls eyes*

I think there is a great deal of concern. The issue thus far had to deal with the way the thread was presented without any facts.

NERD has posted that it could have been done in a better manner and I agree with that whole-heartily. I am personally opposed to Voids and I agree with much of Gary’s post that they should be handled in the same way as hots.

And LOL, Your not accusing someone of something and telling people to go find the proof on their own. So, I would not worry about the rep. point thing.

[Jim O]

As I said earlier, I am indeed disturbed by the pictures. And I agree with a lot of what Gary said. But honestly, that is the tip of a very large iceberg. How may times have people seen powerful constrictors being carried at reptile shows wrapped around the neck of some moronic show off? I personally know of someone who used to hold his snakes like that all the time during cage maintenance. That is until a previously docile (I hate to use the word "tame" to describe a wild animal) 5 foot carpet python decided to wrap his neck. He was unable to remove the snake before he started to "see stars" (as you know, compression of the carotid arteries will cause unconsciousness long before compression of the trachea). Fortunately his wife was in the next room and heard the struggle and was able to safely remove the constrictor from his neck and save his life. Had she not been there he likely would have been front page news -- MAN KILLED BY PET PYTHON.

I keep scrub pythons. They are rather powerful constrictors with rather large teeth and a potent bite. I know of people who use their so-called "tame" scrubs for classroom demonstartions and let children "pet" them. These animals respond to smell, heat, and motion. Imagine some little kid that had been playing with his or her pet rodent or rabbit before school approaching that snake and receiving a strike. Imagine those headlines -- GIRL BIT ON FACE BY DANGEROUS PYTHON IN SCHOOL DEMO.

I guess my point is that we all need to be a bit more careful perhaps as to what we take for granted here. The person who gets wrapped by a 5 foot carpet or ball python will in fact be dead long before the person who receives a bite from a hot "void".

[sirenofthestorm]

Honestly, I think the pics speak for themselves. The question that pops into my head just by looking at the pics is "Wow, those are either hots or voids. And is either one really appropriate in that situation?"

Now yes, this thread should have a different TITLE, but a poor choice of words should not have overshadowed the content of the thread. How a bunch of self respecting adults let that little nugget slip by them for 8 pages is beyond me. I'm sorry guys, this is not debate school, this is a board for a hobby that gets more bad press than good press, and arguing about the semantics of how an argument was made is kinda bypassing the core issue IMO.

[Jim O]

Honestly, I think the pics speak for themselves. The question that pops into my head just by looking at the pics is "Wow, those are either hots or voids. And is either one really appropriate in that situation?"

Now yes, this thread should have a different TITLE, but a poor choice of words should not have overshadowed the content of the thread. How a bunch of self respecting adults let that little nugget slip by them for 8 pages is beyond me. I'm sorry guys, this is not debate school, this is a board for a hobby that gets more bad press than good press, and arguing about the semantics of how an argument was made is kinda bypassing the core issue IMO.Actually they do not "speak for themselves". Like I said earlier, I was somewhat disturbed by the content, but without context they are only pictures of people handling venomoids, some of whom are wearing NERD t-shirts. That is until Kara confirmed that it was a NERD event. Those t-shirts are available for sale to the general public.

If you like you can use your control panel here to set your pages to 40 posts each. Then this is only two pages. :raspberry

[PaulSage]

can you tell that they are venemoids by looking at them in the pictures?
Couldn't someone see the pics and assume that all of the snakes are venemous? :shrug01:

[sirenofthestorm]

Am I really the only one who recognizes Kevin from other pics as among the freehandlers? And since it was a NERD event, I assume that NERD staff was on hand to take out the animals and showcase them. Either that's the case, or they just put the animals out and let the crowd take them out and handle them. I know in the dozens of presentations I've given, even if I let someone from the general population handle a african fat tailed gecko, I watch that animal like a hawk and know what is going on with it at all times. Larger boids or anything prone to biting is under control by myself or someone I trust at all times. Its simply amazing to me that someone in this hobby would let someone they don't know freehandle a venomoid or a hot. Now either these people in the pictures are strangers, or they're not.

If a NERD representative would like to clarify as to whether everyone within striking distance of those voids were qualified hot handlers, that is they all had or were on their way to 1000 hours of apprenticeship working with hots, I for one would appreciate it.

[Gary O]

A large constritor being a 5 foot ball or carpet killing someone, come on!

A hot that is kown as a void is dangerous if it bites you. You think you are safe and do nothing. But if it did inject venom you are in danger and will not know it right away with some of the hots.

I say a buddy system works well when dealing with large snakes. A bite and constrict from a constrictor does hurt and can kill but having others around will save your life. A void or hot all it takes is that bite and you trully do not know what will happen next. If it is a void that is hot again(yes this has happened) Can you imagine what could be done to the owner.

Hots need to be viewed by people and not touched and only trained personal need to handle such snakes.

This is where voids give that sense of security that you never know if it is trully there.

Am I going to sit here and bash NERD. NO, but they made a very bad choice IMO and need to just look it over and maybe do something else to "educate" people. Also all it takes is for one of them people to see that and say I know where to buy those snakes. Get it shipped to them only to find out they got a hot when it is to late.

Remember the king cobra that a person ordered. They ordered a HOT snake and got a void. Did the person that ordered the void get a hot?

Talk about dangerous.

[Gary O]

Am I really the only one who recognizes Kevin from other pics as among the freehandlers?

I was not going to bring that up but a friend and I was talking about that on the phone awhile ago lol

[JuliusSqueezer]

NERD promotes Voids. I'll say it and NO ONE will ever convince me otherwise. Kara changes her stories about anything controversial as needed to protect their business. I am a wittness to her past posts on RTB about the vet they have had perform the operations. As soon as the flack started flying, she deleted all those posts and denied them...Call it hearsay all you want. I was there. Now am I saying that Kevin and Kara are putting up billboards around the country that says "VOIDS ARE COOL"? No but showboating them around the public at shows PROMOTES THEM and they might as well put up billboards as this is every bit as bad! I'd love to take a poll from the kids at that show and ask how many would love to have a venomoid for a pet now. Back a few years ago when Kara was fumbling around with her ever changing stories about why they have voids and what they do with them. She assured us that in presentations, these animals were always displayed as venomous snakes and no showboating ever occured. People leave those shows none the wiser that the animals were butcher-victims and they were only used to teach respect...OK, that was obviously a lie. It's always nice to have people in any hobby/industry to look up to and anyone who has made a name is going to have a flock of sheep that can see no wrong in anything they do. So for a second, forget who this is about and focus on what took place. Some freaking morons took a bunch of voids out amongst a bunch of kids and sideshow circus gawkers and showboated with them and let small children get up close and personal and even handle them. Had this been anyone else...The Hyena pack would have gnashed their teeth in the other direction. NO ONE owes NERD, Kara or Kevin any appology. If anyone owes an appology it's whoever wants to be the scapegoat du jour for NERD since Kara and Kevin can do no wrong ever...and they owe it to the entire hobby/industry.

[sirenofthestorm]

Kara/Kevin, please answer my question of clarity. Is everyone pictured holding, touching, and within striking distance of the venomoids on their way to being thoroughly apprenticed in hot handling?

[Jim O]

A large constritor being a 5 foot ball or carpet killing someone, come on! You aren't helping your case here Gary by belittling others' posts. I said that a five foot constrictor can kill someone if it wraps quickly around the neck. In fact, a smaller one can. It only takes two coils. Do the arithmetic. Two coils on an 18 inch neck is...ummm 36 inches (that's all of three feet). I didn't say it was likely, what I said was that it could happen. I also said that if you do get neck wrapped by a constrictor you will be down and dead before you can get to the phone to call 911. With a venomous bite if you get medical attention you are likely to survive.

Now you want to doubt my story that's fine. I could care less whether you believe it or not. My point was that many people are quite cavalier about how they handle reptiles, hot or not, and that the problem is not limited to one group.

As for recognizing the people in the picture, please forgive the ignorant among us who did not. I don't make it a practice of knowing what NERD's staff and ownership look like, and to ASSume that anyone does is well...you can fill in the blank.

[Gary O]

Did I belittle you? No if you feel that way I am sorry. but if you would have read my post you would have also seen I posted that the buddy system for large constrictors is something you should do.................

No a hot snake biute yes but a hot you think is a void will kill you and you never know it. Or you know when it is too late...............see the point.

Letting kids play with hots is not smart. There is no dodging this. There is no other thing we can twist this too.

Can a large constrictor kill you. Yep I posted that, but with 2 or three people there a 5 foot snake is not going to kill you. maybe fluffy or baby could with the buddy system as they are that large we are talking 300 llb snakes. But you could have a group of 50 and have a void bite you. You think it is a void. Blow it off. Awhile later you are feeling lite headed and then you seak medical attention. You just wasted a lot of time thinking it was only a void bite.

[Gary O]

You aren't helping your case here Gary by belittling others' posts.

It is funny you say this also when so many did just that belittled the post that the author of this thread posted. Then they ask questions later. It happens all the time.

But I stiull say in no way did I belittle you.

[IL_Duca]

Jim and a few others of you, I have read many BOI's and other posts on this site that you have participated in. In so much I had thought higher of you. 2 of you even go as far as to keep bashing him even after he remitted and gave an apology. He was belittled because of his age, but were any apologies offered for this? I havent seen any. He was quick enough and man enough at age 16 to remit an offer an apology but you continue on with your ways if it works for you.

[Gary O]

Jim and a few others of you, I have read many BOI's and other posts on this site that you have participated in. In so much I had thought higher of you. 2 of you even go as far as to keep bashing him even after he remitted and gave an apology. He was belittled because of his age, but were any apologies offered for this? I havent seen any. He was quick enough and man enough at age 16 to remit an offer an apology but you continue on with your ways if it works for you.


As you seen man Jim O got upset at me for questioning his 5 foot will kill you thing. But he did not read the whole post. But in this very thread he belittled the origanal poster.

It is the way some are man. I wish it were different.

But I agree Dave said he was sorry and more then once. But still getting slammed about his age. he is a memebr of my site TRR and I will say that he is a great member and very polite.

[bcfos]

NERD promotes Voids. I'll say it and NO ONE will ever convince me otherwise. Kara changes her stories about anything controversial as needed to protect their business. I am a wittness to her past posts on RTB about the vet they have had perform the operations. As soon as the flack started flying, she deleted all those posts and denied them...Call it hearsay all you want. I was there. Now am I saying that Kevin and Kara are putting up billboards around the country that says "VOIDS ARE COOL"? No but showboating them around the public at shows PROMOTES THEM and they might as well put up billboards as this is every bit as bad! I'd love to take a poll from the kids at that show and ask how many would love to have a venomoid for a pet now. Back a few years ago when Kara was fumbling around with her ever changing stories about why they have voids and what they do with them. She assured us that in presentations, these animals were always displayed as venomous snakes and no showboating ever occured. People leave those shows none the wiser that the animals were butcher-victims and they were only used to teach respect...OK, that was obviously a lie. It's always nice to have people in any hobby/industry to look up to and anyone who has made a name is going to have a flock of sheep that can see no wrong in anything they do. So for a second, forget who this is about and focus on what took place. Some freaking morons took a bunch of voids out amongst a bunch of kids and sideshow circus gawkers and showboated with them and let small children get up close and personal and even handle them. Had this been anyone else...The Hyena pack would have gnashed their teeth in the other direction. NO ONE owes NERD, Kara or Kevin any appology. If anyone owes an appology it's whoever wants to be the scapegoat du jour for NERD since Kara and Kevin can do no wrong ever...and they owe it to the entire hobby/industry.



I am with Brett on this one. Seems they change their tune to go with popular current beliefs and opinions. Which these picture do in fact prove wrong. As for context it is kind of hard to prove what they said seeing that someone deleted ther threads in question on their site. Wonder why? Could it be because it was nothing more than stuff like Kevin holding an Egyptian cobra or kids petting a cobra? Could be, looks like they did a little damage control to try and save face.

Now go and give me them negative points as I don't give a damn about this forum or the groupies on it. I said what needed to be said and I am done with it. Go ahead and gang up on me on this post (typical moronic response from fauna) also just don't expect a reply back because like I said I am done with it. I am not saying I am better than anyone here, but I am not blinded to the facts because someone is a so called big time ethical dealer. Inbreeding isn't ethical in case you didn't know.

[crazycorn]

I still feel I was jumped on a bit too harshly, yes I could have presented my post better but some of you like to protect 'big names' and many people can see this its not just me. Yes I may be young but I can hold my own and it does not automaticly deem me a lesser on the forums than any of you. I am glad to see people are finally coming out of the wood works on this. Many of you act less mature than me at times. But I am done now...

[Jim O]

As you seen man Jim O got upset at me for questioning his 5 foot will kill you thing. But he did not read the whole post. But in this very thread he belittled the origanal poster.

It is the way some are man. I wish it were different.

But I agree Dave said he was sorry and more then once. But still getting slammed about his age. he is a memebr of my site TRR and I will say that he is a great member and very polite.Actually, this was the sequence GaryOkay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned
Now that my young friend, is showing some maturityYes it is. I am almost tempted to give him postive rep points for it.I will admit to making mistakes, trust me we all make them and I have made plenty.Yes we all have. Actually there is a quote from someone here and I cannot remember who said it but it has stuck with me since I read it the first time. It goes something like "an error is not a mistake unless you don't learn from it". Quite apt IMOI think I pretty well let him off the hook. And actually, I made the fourth post in this thread (David made the first two so it was only the second response), asking him for context for the photos.David,

Do you want to give us some context on these photos? And I drew no conclusions until he admitted he had no context. And that, my dear friend, was the issue with the post. So to say that he was criticized for the content before questions were asked is perhaps an overstatement, unless you consider stealing copyrighted material, something to which he admitted, OK. I do not. My guess is that you would not like your material used without permission.

As for the "buddy system" yes it works if it is used. Proper handing of hots works well if it is used also. I know many people who live alone and who keep large constrictors and do not use it. My original point was that the way these animals were handled is NOT the only problem. Someone carrying a large burm around their neck at ANY time, whether at a show or at home is plain stupid IMNSHO. That was my point.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Jim Jim Jim. If you cannot simply reach up and unwrap a 5 foot carpet python from your own neck when it is squeezing too hard...YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING REPTILES :) The whole carpet python saga seemed a bit dramatized. I agree though about large burms although burms tend to hang rather loosely compared to other boids unless a feeding response is a factor...I actually had to walk next door to get a neighbor to help me get an 8 foot tiger ratsnake off my neck once. He had tied his tail in multiple knots and I was just stuck! lol. ...blasted extra long prehensile tail... I never considered myself in a life threatening situation though and I'll pit an 8 foot tiger rat squeeze against a 5 foot carpet any day.

[JuliusSqueezer]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.

[crazycorn]

Jim does it have to be spelled out for you?
Lol...

You still do not get it. There is a very important lesson to be learned here. When you make accusations about people it is YOUR responsibility to prove your own accusations to be true. Not ours.

Anyway, after seeing Kara's post I hope this lesson sank in a little bit. This thread should never have been started.


Paul Sage,

Sorry dude but at 16 he is more than old enough to know better. My 10 year old knows better. It seems to me that he thought he had a sure fire hot topic and could not wait to see the fireworks start. Only it blew up in his face.

Lesson learned I hope.
Lets not forget this one......
You're right Sammy. I see that now. At first when I saw "crazycorn" I was thinking of "corncrazy" who is someone I had a very pleasant transaction with. I thought that he was maybe their kid or something, so I was a little biased when I posted about granting him some leniency.

He has certainly dug himself a hole here, and when you light fireworks off inside a pit, they're bound to "blow up in his face". Some people just want to make waves, and then sit back and hope the tsunami that results doesn't flood their way. Lol... so now he's lighting fireworks off inside a flooded hole that he dug himself! Don't you just love expressions?
Lets not forget this one......

[crazycorn]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.
They are just mobbing me to protect NERD, you do not need the context for those photos I was surprised when they asked for it.

[crazycorn]

BTW... Thanks for all the good comments and back up from everyone through posts, PM's, and Emails. It is a bit rough on young person that is passionate about reptiles to go through stuff such as bashing and belittling from people you are supposed to be able to look up to.

[Jim O]

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable?None at all. I have said from the get go that the pictures were disturbing. My problem was that the thread was titled "NERD supports Voids and plays with them" when all that I, and I repeat I, saw was people in a photo do just that. As I said, and if you look at this thread closely you will see that I said it, those t-shirts are available for sale to the general public. Since I, and I repeat I, do not know the staff at NERD, the people wearing those shirts could have been anyone. If that context had been provided this thread would likely have gone a very different way. Had David said "these photos were taken at a NERD event at NERD and the two people wearing the NERD t-shirts are frick and frack who work there and/or own the place that would have been context enough. But as they were presented, all we had were some disturbing photos and no context.

When David was asked for context, his answer was for people to look it up themselves.

[Rebel Dragons]

Telling me what 'I should have done' isn't going to change anything..... Oh well... I am still waiting to hear from them.. Prove it to me I am wrong and I will ADMIT I am wrong.


Here he states he will admit he was wrong if he needed too.

Thanks for clearing it up, I was wrong, you may not presently support voids, but that IMO was down right wrong and could have been very serious as many others think also.


Yes, you were wrong. You owned up to it and stated you opinion that you feel that what they were doing was wrong. Nothing wrong with that.

Okay, I WAS WRONG on NERD supporting voids and saying they do so, I truely sorry to KAra and Kevin. Yes I should have contacted them first, as we all know being up late at night does help us make good choices. I am also sorry for aounding cocky as someone has mentioned.

He is David again saying he was worng and apologizing for it.

There is a very important lesson to be learned here. When you make accusations about people it is YOUR responsibility to prove your own accusations to be true. Not ours.



Another example as to why he was confronted at the beginning of the thread.

So wait, there's no concern at all over kids free handling voids in the hot forum? At all? Wow.

(And by the way, just in advance, thanks to anyone who gives me negative reputation points for raising a SAFETY concern about a well known breeder.) *rolls eyes*

Here is where the posts start coming in about safety issues concerning the snakes.


I think there is a great deal of concern. The issue thus far had to deal with the way the thread was presented without any facts.

NERD has posted that it could have been done in a better manner and I agree with that whole-heartily. I am personally opposed to Voids and I agree with much of Gary’s post that they should be handled in the same way as hots.

And LOL, Your not accusing someone of something and telling people to go find the proof on their own. So, I would not worry about the rep. point thing.

A post saying that the safety issue was not the first topic discussed. And yet another person voiceing concern about the safety issue at the same time.

Still have yet to see anyone saying they support what was going on in the pictures. Let's keep rolling on in the thread shall we?

Honestly, I think the pics speak for themselves. The question that pops into my head just by looking at the pics is "Wow, those are either hots or voids. And is either one really appropriate in that situation?"

Now yes, this thread should have a different TITLE, but a poor choice of words should not have overshadowed the content of the thread. How a bunch of self respecting adults let that little nugget slip by them for 8 pages is beyond me. I'm sorry guys, this is not debate school, this is a board for a hobby that gets more bad press than good press, and arguing about the semantics of how an argument was made is kinda bypassing the core issue IMO.

This in my opinion was a great post. However some people don't follow the same procedures as others when they read a thread for the first time. Everyone is going to see a diffrent core topic in some posts. Thats just the way it is.


I still feel I was jumped on a bit too harshly, yes I could have presented my post better but some of you like to protect 'big names' and many people can see this its not just me. Yes I may be young but I can hold my own and it does not automaticly deem me a lesser on the forums than any of you. I am glad to see people are finally coming out of the wood works on this. Many of you act less mature than me at times. But I am done now...

Perhaps you were, perhaps you weren't. I don't remeber seeing anyone post you were lesser than anyone else. You opinions hold just as much weight as anyone elses. Sometimes people will agree with your actions and sometimes they won't. Although now that you seem to have a little back up your attitude certainly has changed from the one that was addmitting his mistakes at the start of the thread.

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptable? A picture says a 1000 words. That may be cliche' but it fits here. Just the mere fact that they held such an event and then posted photos on their website...no "context" can downplay the horror of such a scene.

WHERE DID ANYONE SAY IT WAS ACCEPTABLE????

They are just mobbing me to protect NERD, you do not need the context for those photos I was surprised when they asked for it.


Theres the change we were seeing. Want to retract your apolgies now?

BTW... Thanks for all the good comments and back up from everyone through posts, PM's, and Emails. It is a bit rough on young person that is passionate about reptiles to go through stuff such as bashing and belittling from people you are supposed to be able to look up to.

Trust me David, you were not bashed. You got nothing more than a flesh wound on this topic. Your passion is enough to drive you onto bigger and better things. However your passion is just might have been what you were trying to do when YOU let's say started "bashing" NERD over the pictures taken at one of their events. Also I never once read anywhere about having to look up to people on this site. Sounds like a personal issue to me.

And for the record I am not defending NERD. If I ran over a member of NERD with my car I wouldn't have a clue who they were. I am opposed to voids being around children just as I am pythons and constrictors. All are deadly in their own way. Some more than others but still deadly.

What I am opposed to is people starting threads by using an opinion as fact. That is where all the "open ended" opinions start trouble because there is no fact behind anything said.

[Jim O]

Jim Jim Jim. If you cannot simply reach up and unwrap a 5 foot carpet python from your own neck when it is squeezing too hard...YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING REPTILES :) The whole carpet python saga seemed a bit dramatized.Do you know how much unilateral carotid sinus pressure is required to cause bradycardia and syncope? Evidently not as you don't likely know enough anatomy, physiology, or vocabulary. I, on the other hand, have a medical degree and practiced clinical medicine for 17 years so let me help you. The carotid sinus is a collection of nerve endings in the carotid artery. Pressure on the carotid sinus typically results in a slowed heart rate (bradycardia). In some cases, it is sufficient to cause syncope (fainting or loss of consciousness) rather quickly. In fact, in some people with carotid sinus hypersensitivity, a quick turn of the head can result in loss of consciousness. Now imagine a 5 foot constrictor getting a good press on someone like that. It can happen. You want to argue the medical likelihood? Go ahead and do it. But you'd be wrong to say it cannot happen. Because it can, even in a relatively healthy person. That is why I cringe when I see or hear of people allowing constrictors on or near their necks. In the case of the individual in question, I suspect this may have been what happened as he was going down pretty quickly, long before his airway could possibly have been compromised

[Rockford]

As for recognizing the people in the picture, please forgive the ignorant among us who did not. I don't make it a practice of knowing what NERD's staff and ownership look like, and to ASSume that anyone does is well...you can fill in the blank.

Jim- Can't you recongnize the building in the backgorund? That is NERD's store. I am sure you have been to NERD's site, right? And the whole thing about a 5' Python strangling someone is ridiculous. If that did happen that's natural selection at it's finest. That's like the story of a guy holding a dead rabbit under his chin freeing his hands to open his Retics cage.......MORONIC. Apples and oranges my friend. VOIDS NOR HOTS SHOULD BE HANDLED unless absolutely necessary(using the correct equipment) and the responsible keepers abide by that. Those pictures speak for themeselves...PERIOD!

NERD.....You guys really owe the reptile community an apology. Gary, Brian and a few other's posts have hit the nail on the head. Handling voids and displaying them in the careless manner at your shop is advertising voids in my opinion. Allowing children to be so close to these animals is beyond careless.

I am done ranting......there has been enough said already.

bthacker

[Jim O]

Jim- Can't you recongnize the building in the backgorund? That is NERD's store. I am sure you have been to NERD's site, right? And the whole thing about a 5' Python strangling someone is ridiculous. If that did happen that's natural selection at it's finest.I believe you if you say it si but I have only been to their site to check available animals not to look at pictures of the store. Honestly.

And perhaps you should learn a little anatomy and physiology before you make judgements.

[IL_Duca]

Though not having all the proof in the beginning its pretty clear that he is right...NERD was showing the Voids...how is that not supporting it? And they are definately playing with them. From the pics all you see is them acting like they are playing with a worm snake. The only thing he truly had anything to apologize for is posting without all the facts from the start. From where he got it all though...they knew kevin was in the pictures and the context of where it came from...

[Rockford]

YOUR ANATOMY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A RESPONSIBLE KEEPER!!

You don't get it.

bthacker

[crazycorn]

No, I am NOT going to retract my apology, I even went as far as to PM NERD later on, I just had enough time at work to sit and think about and I feel I was pushed a bit to hard. Truth is half this board would not do that. Though I wil put this out their, I have learned from this thread who to look up to and who not to deal with. You have to admit there is a pack of people here who all attack at once and repeat the same thing over and over......

[Jim O]

Though not having all the proof in the beginning its pretty clear that he is right...NERD was showing the Voids...how is that not supporting it? And they are definately playing with them. From the pics all you see is them acting like they are playing with a worm snake. The only thing he truly had anything to apologize for is posting without all the facts from the start. From where he got it all though...they knew kevin was in the pictures and the context of where it came from...Very true!! And if the people with the facts had pointed all that out I doubt that there would have been much if any criticism. Certainly none from me.

And David went above and beyond and stood up for what he did. I applauded him then and I do now.

[Jim O]

YOUR ANATOMY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A RESPONSIBLE KEEPER!!

You don't get it.

bthackerNo, so yell at me, maybe I will hear better. :raspberry

[crazycorn]

Its not at personal issue to want to have someone to look up to and guide you in your quest for knowledge, ever heard of a mentor, a teacher, a hero? guess not, at the very least to have someone to respect.

[Rockford]

DID IT WORK?????

I have a feeling it didn't.

[crazycorn]

LOL Brett, I must say you hit the nail on the head in those so few posts. I think this thread should be focused back on what it was meant to be about, NERD and their carelessness when dealing with animals such as Voids.

[Rebel Dragons]

Its not at personal issue to want to have someone to look up to and guide you in your quest for knowledge, ever heard of a mentor, a teacher, a hero? guess not, at the very least to have someone to respect.

Maybe you put too much weight on what people say and do while "online".

There is a person on fauna who comes across as a complete "bitch" when she makes ANY post. But truth be known, she is one of the most intellegent people I have ever talked to when it comes to reptiles.

I believe that the saying, "never judge a book by it's cover" comes into play here.

[Gary O]

Look man I think you are trying to get the heat off of Nerd. I see this in your reasoning.

"Well this guy ripped you off for 500 well this other guy got ripped for 350 so until we deal with it all just shut up."

This has nothing to do with a 5 foot boa nothing to do with a snake around the neck. It has everything to do with little kids petting a HOT! WTF is that. if you could not see that in the pics then I am sorry. Nerd had a show. They brought out voids to show off. that is promoting them.

Lets say Ray hunter posts pics with him free handling a hot. People BASH him for it. But he is the first to say do not try this at home. He puts it with the pic. He also will not let other do it. But here at this show they are saying pet this cobra it is nice. it can not kill you. It is ok to go up to this rattlesnake and play with it. see I do it.

There is enough of that on TV.....................But to let the kids have hands on WOW.

Nerd has it's place and yes that was Kevin in them pics. Nerd had a show and promoted voids in it. I could not believe it at first. But it happened.

and Dave came here and did not bash NERD just posted pics. You all looked past them. Also he did not take the pics and use them as his own. There is a fine line. If he claimed them as his own then there would be issues. But he posted them and gave credit but I think the owner wishes they were not givin credit now.

[crazycorn]

Mike, I go by peoples actions and attitudes, they speak much louder than knowledge IMO. But hey we can always use the clique 'agree to disagree'.

[Rockford]

Very true!! And if the people with the facts had pointed all that out I doubt that there would have been much if any criticism. Certainly none from me.

And David went above and beyond and stood up for what he did. I applauded him then and I do now.

Insults like the one below really have me doubting your sincerity of the above quote..


I doubt that you even have a clue about liabilities but maybe I am wrong. As for name calling, I did nothing of the sort. I referred to you as a "poo slinger". If this isn't slinging poo I don't know what is. So, to quote you, "I just gave my OPINION". Now run along little dogie. Your mama's calling.

Jim seems to have a passion of insulting kids(David sorry to refer you as a kid, I think you are more of an adult than some here).
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70103&page=3&pp=5

Jim you need to find yourself a girlfriend.

bthacker

[crazycorn]

Brett, I still consider myself a kid that is still maturing into a young adult and gaining knowledge along the way.

PS: Remind me to never post late at night while on sleeping pills. LOL

[bcfos]

And to whoever gave me negative rep points... Your trailer park is showing dumbass. Learn to spell quote then come see me. :raspberry

[crazycorn]

To see what Brian is talking about look at this... quote code don't work in rep area :raspberry

[crazycorn]

Dang, with in the last 5 minutes I got a negative and a positive with no feedback.....

[JuliusSqueezer]

I appologize for not responding to this several pages back when it was posted. I was busy elsewhere and got behind. I am aware of how little it takes to cut off carotid bloodflow. I'm also aware of how little effort it takes for a below average strength human being to simply reach back and unwind a 5 foot carpet python.

Do you know how much unilateral carotid sinus pressure is required to cause bradycardia and syncope? Evidently not as you don't likely know enough anatomy, physiology, or vocabulary. I, on the other hand, have a medical degree and practiced clinical medicine for 17 years so let me help you. The carotid sinus is a collection of nerve endings in the carotid artery. Pressure on the carotid sinus typically results in a slowed heart rate (bradycardia). In some cases, it is sufficient to cause syncope (fainting or loss of consciousness) rather quickly. In fact, in some people with carotid sinus hypersensitivity, a quick turn of the head can result in loss of consciousness. Now imagine a 5 foot constrictor getting a good press on someone like that. It can happen. You want to argue the medical likelihood? Go ahead and do it. But you'd be wrong to say it cannot happen. Because it can, even in a relatively healthy person. That is why I cringe when I see or hear of people allowing constrictors on or near their necks. In the case of the individual in question, I suspect this may have been what happened as he was going down pretty quickly, long before his airway could possibly have been compromised

[Jim O]

Look man I think you are trying to get the heat off of Nerd. I see this in your reasoning.

"Well this guy ripped you off for 500 well this other guy got ripped for 350 so until we deal with it all just shut up."Huh? I must have missed something here.

This has nothing to do with a 5 foot boa nothing to do with a snake around the neck. It has everything to do with little kids petting a HOT! WTF is that. if you could not see that in the pics then I am sorry. Nerd had a show. They brought out voids to show off. that is promoting them.Indeed. Again, my point was not that this is not bad but that there are also other issues. And more people go to non-venomous shows and see said idiot with a large constrictor around their neck and think it is safe to do that ALSO. I never disagreed with your initial post. In fact I said I agreed with most of it as I recall. I was merely trying to make a point that there are many common examples of snakes that are improperly handled and this does a disservice to us all. I went on to point out that even smaller constrictors can be dangerous. I think many people missed my point. It was not to detract from the stupidity of what I saw in the pics but to add to it. I am sorry that most saw it another way. It certainly was never my intent.

As for David, I stand by what I said earlier. He was very mature to admit that he could have presented it better. And without knowing what the pictures were, he might have used better judgement and found out first. I think it's clear that he learned that lesson.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I apparetly have some bad feedback too lol. I'd go read it if I cared. I'll wear it like a badge. Keep em coming! :) It fits nicely with my warning points that I earned from not bowing down and actually having the gall to question the ethics of "respected breeders"

[Karen Hulvey]

I can't believe this thread. Why is the thread starter made out to be the bad guy here?

That is until a previously docile (I hate to use the word "tame" to describe a wild animal) 5 foot carpet python decided to wrap his neck. He was unable to remove the snake before he started to "see stars" How in the he!! can you compare a carpet python to a venomous animal? If a man can't remove a 5' carpet from his neck, then he must be a dwarf or missing an arm among other things.

I can name a lot of species of snakes that have been documented to kill humans and a carpet python is certainly not on that list.

Knock, Knock for those of you who refuse to see what is clearly pictured:
They FREE HANDLED HOTS a few feet from a ton of people, even letting kids touch them and all you people can do is harp on a 16 y/o reposting the pics from their website. If they posted it on the WWW, then it's fair game.

C'mon guys, you can't have it both ways. Either you condone it or you don't. Get off the fence and form a real opinion.

Oh yeah, those were voids. I bet every single one of you would trust yourself or your child's life with that knowledge. Oh yeah, I forgot someone said "you won't die from a venomous snake bite", but I bet you would wish you were dead. Not to mention all the negative media attention it would garner. I wonder how long a gaboon viper or a cobra's fangs are? Hmmmm I bet a scrub python packs more of a wallop, yeah right.

Why is it when "Joe Blow" posts "Rattlesnakes Make Great Bracelets" with a picture of him freehandling a rattlesnake, people flip and condemn him. But when a big-time breeder (FYI: The dude with the long hair holding most of the snakes is Kevin) posts pictures of himself FREE HANDLING HOT SNAKESwithin feet of children, and no one flinches?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68798&highlight=bracelet
This is the thread where 18 people thought that someone freehandling hots is a "freehandling f-tard". So which is it? Is Kevin a "freehandling F-tard" or not?

Heck some of those same people who reamed the other freehandling idiot are now condoning the freehandling of hots right here. And furthermore what was done at NERD's shop by the owner of NERD is worse than someone home alone holding their rattlesnake. These people made it look like it's okay to take your cobra out and play with it.

[crazycorn]

without knowing what the pictures were
I knew right away what they were and had no doubt in my mind, at first I was speachless becausE I had the UPMOST respect for NERD but it was very obvious in the photos that they were legit, seeing a piece on the store settled that in my mind.

[Gary O]

Karen Hulvey

Thank You!

[Karen Hulvey]

Still have yet to see anyone saying they support what was going on in the pictures. Let's keep rolling on in the thread shall we?
WHERE DID ANYONE SAY IT WAS ACCEPTABLE????
WHERE DID ANYONE SAY THEY WERE "FREEHANDLING F-TARDS?" If it were anyone but NERD, you people would be all over it like flies on poo.

[Jim O]

I appologize for not responding to this several pages back when it was posted. I was busy elsewhere and got behind. I am aware of how little it takes to cut off carotid bloodflow. I'm also aware of how little effort it takes for a below average strength human being to simply reach back and unwind a 5 foot carpet python.In the case of carotid sinus hypersensitivity syncope can occur in seconds, long before you have a chance to respond.

Look at this for a pretty impressive report http://www.users.interport.net/w/s/wsc1/www.westsubcardiology.com/pages/ep/csm.htm. More info at http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic299.htm. Suffice it to say that even minor carotid pressure can result in loss of consciousness in susceptible individuals. Once unconscious, it is a bit difficult to remove a snake from a neck. If the snake were so inclined, it could maintain pressure and the result would be death.

[Jim O]

Heck some of those same people who reamed the other freehandling idiot are now condoning the freehandling of hots right here. And furthermore what was done at NERD's shop by the owner of NERD is worse than someone home alone holding their rattlesnake. These people made it look like it's okay to take your cobra out and play with it.Karen, show me where anyone condoned what the pictures show? One quote, please, where it says anything to the effect that "this was OK".

[crazycorn]

I am sorry Jim O, I don't see it being any bit common, I have had plenty of snake wrap around my neck some of those were a 7ft Guyana red tail, 6ft Red tailed ratsnake, and a few others. If you can't get a 5ft carpet off you neck stay outta snakes. Karen you hit this so HARD on the nail its not even funny.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Hey Dr Jim. You are preaching to the choir. My dad has that problem. He has had his carotid arteries worked on several times. He doesn't keep snakes. If he did, I would advise him not to put a 5 foot carpet python around his neck. Like I said, if you can't get a 5 foot carpet python off you, you have no buisness keeping reptiles or at least not putting them around your neck...but these rare cases certainly don't reflect on everyone who has snakes.

[Rockford]

Hey Dr Jim. You are preaching to the choir. My dad has that problem. He has had his carotid arteries worked on several times. He doesn't keep snakes. If he did, I would advise him not to put a 5 foot carpet python around his neck. Like I said, if you can't get a 5 foot carpet python off you, you have no buisness keeping reptiles or at least not putting them around your neck...but these rare cases certainly don't reflect on everyone who has snakes.

Great point that Jim doesn't seem to get.

bthacker

[Jim O]

Hey Dr Jim. You are preaching to the choir. My dad has that problem. He has had his carotid arteries worked on several times. He doesn't keep snakes. If he did, I would advise him not to put a 5 foot carpet python around his neck. Like I said, if you can't get a 5 foot carpet python off you, you have no buisness keeping reptiles or at least not putting them around your neck...but these rare cases certainly don't reflect on everyone who has snakes.That is a good point. My point is many people who seem healthy have it and do not know it. I would hate for the initial presentation of it to be death by a Boa or Python, irrespective of the size. It's a risk and it's one commonly seen at reptile shows and the like. And that is why I pointed it out.

[Karen Hulvey]

Karen, show me where anyone condoned what the pictures show? One quote, please, where it says anything to the effect that "this was OK".
You condone it by not condeming it.

[crazycorn]

I would like to know how NERD can guarantee that all the snakes are voids if they were rescues?

[Jim O]

You condone it by not condeming it.So everyone who has viewed this thread or participated in any way and not condemned it as forcefully as you would like has condoned it? Or am I held to an especially high standard in that regard?

Eh...it's no matter. Please read the following, all from different posts that I have made in this thread and explain again please how I have "condoned" it.
I am not happy with what I see in the pictures either
As I said earlier, I am indeed disturbed by the pictures. And I agree with a lot of what Gary said.
Like I said earlier, I was somewhat disturbed by the content

And about context....this has really been eating at me. Under what conceivable context would photos of children petting cobras be acceptableNone at all. I have said from the get go that the pictures were disturbing.

Though not having all the proof in the beginning its pretty clear that he is right...NERD was showing the Voids...how is that not supporting it? And they are definately playing with them. From the pics all you see is them acting like they are playing with a worm snake. The only thing he truly had anything to apologize for is posting without all the facts from the start. From where he got it all though...they knew kevin was in the pictures and the context of where it came from...Very true!!

[Jim O]

I would like to know how NERD can guarantee that all the snakes are voids if they were rescues?That is a good question and one to which I would like an answer. Perhaps the best point made in this entire thread.

[bcfos]

So everyone who has viewed this thread or participated in any way and not condemned it as forcefully as you would like has condoned it? Or am I held to an especially high standard in that regard?



No actually low standards. Typical for a bottom feeder like yourself..

[Jim O]

No actually low standards. Typical for a bottom feeder like yourself..What a witty comeback. You must be a member of Mensa.

[bcfos]

What a witty comeback. You must be a member of Mensa.


Don't see you on the national register Jimbo..

[Jim O]

Don't see you on the national register Jimbo..I don't belong to clubs that would have me.

[bcfos]

I don't belong to clubs that would have me.


Don't see any breaking down your doors. And Mensa sure wouldn't have someone with a 63 IQ such as yours.

[crazycorn]

ENOUGH name calling, it will detract from this thread and its meaning ultimately taking it to HELL, plus I can't stand name calling.

[crazycorn]

I have PM'ed NERD about question and I hope to see the answer publicly as that is for what I asked. Sadly I doubt I will get the answer.......

[Jim O]

I have PM'ed NERD about question and I hope to see the answer publicly as that is for what I asked. Sadly I doubt I will get the answer.......You might get a quicker response from an e-mail David.

[crazycorn]

LOL I think my email is getting enough of a work out with the topic reply notices.

[Jim O]

LOL I think my email is getting enough of a work out with the topic reply notices.Turn them off. LOL.

[SPJ]

I have read thru this whole thing and find a real problem with the fact that NERD did the WORST type of educational presentation possible and jeopardized innocent people.

Void or not, you should ALWAYS treat a gabby, cobra, rattler, etc. as a hot!

Freehandling and letting kids pet them in WRONG.

The age of the poster should not be an issue. It seems to me that for being 16, he has more sense than Kevin who is much older.

Does NERD support voids. Based upon the fact that they are showing them off to kids and being reckless with them, I would say they do.

They got them as rescues and BOUGHT others. Personnally, I think NERD specifically went out looking to buy voids to use in a display like this.

Between Kevins arrogance to the "little guys" as vendors at shows, the unethical crossing of the woma x carpet, and now the totally irresponsible display of these animals in public, I am getting really tired of how they are conducting themselves.

Forget about who posted the pics and the age of the people responding in the thread and focus on what the pictures show.

They show NERD putting on a display using potentially dangerous animals with NO safety precautions. Hell one pic shows a cobra being provoked into striking at a person.

Where is the barrier between the animal and the public?
Where are the pics of the proper handling techniques?
Where is the statement from NERD that they never should have allowed spectator contact with these animals?

Forget about the name of the business that did this. If it wasn't "NERD", this display would be condemned by a lot more people.

[sirenofthestorm]

Sooo will someone who represents NERD please tell me whether or not everyone who handled, touched, or was otherwise within striking distance of the voids were on their way to being apprenticed in hots with several hundred hours of work under their belts?

NERD, you're around, please respond.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/atropa7belladonna/why.jpg

[JuliusSqueezer]

I don't get this whole "rescue" thing. Apparently a mutant ball python mill, factory, whatever you want to call it... is the ideal place to send unwanted venomoids to? They sure get a lot lol...How many voids have you guys ever seen up for rescue/adoption? What moronic agency would hand them over to someone who has no regard for safety of even children? Since I know for fact that Kara openly admitted at one point that they had a "vet" perform the void surgeries for NERD ...I'm gonna call BS on this whole "rescue" claim. I'd also love to see the credentials of this so called vet. No self respecting vet who wishes to not be sued over a botched surgery resulting in an envenomation would touch this procedure with a 10 foot mamba.

[Karen Hulvey]

In every other thread where someone is pictured freehandling a hot people jump down the person's throat. Yet in this one, the poster needs to provide proof. Like the pictures aren't proof.

Where is everyone's outrage at the way venomous animals were presented? Instead everyone is stuck on the fact that someone reposted pictures posted on a free website.

Post #3
Personly I think that its their choice to do that.
I wouldnt buy one and I dont agree with it but I dont think that makes their snakes worth anyless and I dont think anyone has the right to tell them what to do. I mean for christ sakes look what all the hot keepers already have to deal with. Hot or not its their choice. Isnt useing someones pictures without permission against the law? I dont really know just curious your not saying its your but still. No Offense Please. Just my thoughts. Condoning it or not?
Post #4
David, Do you want to give us some context on these photos?
And yes, they are copyright and since you copied them without permission that is a no-no.Condoning it or not? A second post against the thread starter and not against the proper people.
Post #5
Don't quote me, because I'm not 100% sure, but I think I heard/read that all of NERD's void are/were rescues.Condoning it or not? So what if they are rescues? That has nothing to do with the fact that "NERD supports voids and plays with them". It's right there in living color.
Post #6
Yes, I second that. Context please!
So far you have stated you’re a picture thief. Now prove your statement that they support Voids and the context of the pictures you have stolen.
Thanks in advance.Condoning it or not? Parading venomous animals out within a few feet of the public, void or not, is "supporting voids and playing with them."
Post #9
David: We all have our opinions on voids. Myself, I am against them. HOWEVER, you reprinted pix that were removed from a site without permission, and admit to it; that is not a good thing to do. Further, we have no context to form an opinion. Even the folks who are anti void will by and large find a place in their heart to accept one in a rescue circumstance.Condoning it or not? What's with all the context to form an opinion crap? Not one single person asked the dude who decided to wear his rattlesnake as a bracelet what kind of context he did it in.
Post #14
Perhaps if YOU do not even know the context in which they were originally posted, it wasn't such a good idea to post them here and add your own thoughts to them......which COULD be far from the truth.
I have strong feelings against voids myself, but I don't think I would have made a post like this without knowing for CERTAIN what those pictures were all about.Condoning it or not?
Post #15
Don't you think it is up to YOU to prove your claims? You come on here and accuse people of very specific things but have no proof of those things, only assumptions, and then tell other people to go and find out for themselves whether you assumptions and accusations are true?
In the future you should really try to get the details and facts BEFORE you accuse people of things.Condoning it or not?
Post #25
David, did it ever cross your mind to contact NERD and perhaps ask them if the pictures in question are theirs? And then maybe ask for an explanation of what everyone is seeing in those pictures?
I think that would have been a better first step. Then once you received your answer you would have been able to make a post here with context and facts to back up your statements. Your opinions would have been received better too.Condoning it or not?
Post #44
David, the bashing you are taking is your own doing. I am not happy with what I see in the pictures either but the plain fact is you can't make accusations without a factual basis.
What do you call someone who takes something that belongs to someone else without permission?Barely condemning it. It is this post, #44 and Page 9 before anyone decides not to condone freehandling hots. David's accusations were 100% right. Where's David's apology? NERD DID PLAY WITH HOTS. It's right there.

I must have viewed a different set of pictures because here's my take on them:
A Gaboon viper inches from a person's knee.
A woman holding a very large albino cobra with two hands.
Kevin with a cobra with its mouth open only about 5 inches from his finger.
Kevin holding a cobra inches from his face with his finger on the cobra's head.
Kevin holding a very large rattlesnake with people all around.
Kevin with two cobras hooded on the ground about 8' from a man, two children & a woman calmly sitting on the ground.
Kevin on the ground with a cobra hooded in front of him with a child about 5' away and bystanders all around.
And then the kicker, 3 adults and 2 kids petting a cobra held by Kevin.

It looks like a good time was had by all at NERD's "Venomous Playday".

[bcfos]

Very well said Karen. Well said indeed. Does anyone know the venomous laws in New England? Reason being if it is a permit required they would have to have one being a cobra even if it is a void is still classified as a cobra and would be a permit required snake. I highly doubt fish and game would turn ove a confiscated snake which is classified by law as venomous to anyone. Most cases they destroy such animals so they can get some press so the public can see how they are saving the public from such dangers.. :(

[Rebel Dragons]

Nice twist Karen.

To answer your question. No, I do not condemn it. Nor do I condone it. I don't approve of it but that is simply because I don't feel I know enough about it to do either.

As I stated earlier. I don't approve of pythons or constrictors being around small children either. Simply because I don't trust the animal enough.

[Jim O]

Karen,

Let me make this simple for you. You have seen my posts many times and as I have said to others, I do not do subtle. Because I failed to condemn, do not take that as condoning. I was simply not prepared to condemn NERD as having anything to do with the pictured activity until context or verification was offered. I never said it was OK. Honestly, I do not know Kevin from Kara from Justin from Andy or any of the others except as voices on the telephone. It really is hard to know faces that way.

I fail to see how asking for context of the photos (ie was this a NERD event and were these really NERD people) can be construed by any reasonable person as condoning anything. Being told to go find it myself by the original poster because he evidently did not even know caused this thread to go where it went. And as for David, I have been forthright in complimenting his good posts, not just in criticizing the bad ones. As I said, I don't do subtle. I think that he knows where he stands with me at present. And as I said, I think that he has learned to spend an extra bit of time getting his ducks in a row before making an accusation, even if that accusation is later proved to be true. It is the nature of human beings, after all, to ask questions. I believe that's called intellectual curiosity. And giving honest and complete answers is a function of integrity.

[Gary O]

I would really like to get NERDS reply to this. I am not sure why they have not replied to some of the questions here.

I do have a few and in no way is this to start a war

1)Why do you have kids touching hots?

2)Why do kids need to be in striking range of hots?

3)Why did these snakes need to be freehandled to show them to people?

4)Is this the first time this has happened?

5)Will this be the last time this happens?

I am not trying to tell you how to run things but you have to admint this was not the best choice. I have to say I can make a list a mile long why voids are bad and rant about it for days. But to tell you the truth. The Void thing is a second issue to the fact public were touching and in striking range of HOTS.

But as stated here many times if this was any joe blow free handling hots people would have slammed him for days. And to tell you the truth slamming them does nothing. Education does everything. Maybe NERD needs to be educated. Just becuase they are a big dog in the breeding world does not mean they know everything. Everyone has there stregths and weak points. if I came up on that in person I would have thrown a fit and pulled Kevin to the side and asked him what the hell he was thinking. JMHO

[JuliusSqueezer]

To answer your question of context however late it may be...again...Yes it was a NERD event held at NERD by NERD featuring NERD Owner and employees. Now where do you stand? Do you think NERD represented these animals to the public in a way that sheds a good light on reptile keeping as a whole or even any part of it?

[Jim O]

To answer your question of context however late it may be...again...Yes it was a NERD event held at NERD by NERD featuring NERD Owner and employees. Now where do you stand? Do you think NERD represented these animals to the public in a way that sheds a good light on reptile keeping as a whole or even any part of it?I know the context. It has been made clear to me. And my opinion, if not made forcefully enough to satisfy some of you could not be clearer. I am very disturbed by those photos. Kevin should know better or should have known better. I hope that he reads this and heeds this.

I am also rather concerned about an answer to David's question with respect to not knowing the origin of the animals. If these were animals of unknown origin then this was even more of a dumbass move.

As I said, I don't do subtle. Could I make this any clearer for anyone?

[Jim O]

I believe that I made all this clear in a post this morning. But if there's anywhere where anyone can show that I approved of this activity (aside from Karen's convoluted "You condone it by not condeming it" long after I had indeed condemned it) I would be interested to know where it is.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Just trying to clear away the contextual dead horse that was mucking up the thread :) Now lets resume the NERD bashing please :) ...I have to say though, I doubt any of this will change the way they act....just what they publish photographic evidence of. They are an extremely self righteous bunch.

[Rockford]

Hey folks.....Let's stay on the real issue here and get some of the answer's that Gary is asking.

This thread really isn't about Jim back peddling. It's about how this sort of activity(the careless handling of Hots or Voids) can affect our hobby as a whole. It isn't just a Void issue, it's an issue where I may not be able to keep my Boas or responsibly kept Hots in the near future because of other's actions.

After mowing my lawn and cleaning out my garage I got to thinking and I am pretty pissed off by NERD's actions. I hope that people realize how serious this crap is.

bthacker

[Jim O]

Does anyone know the venomous laws in New England? Reason being if it is a permit required they would have to have one being a cobra even if it is a void is still classified as a cobra and would be a permit required snake.Well Mr. Rhodes Scholar, they vary from state to state and last time I checked "New England" was not a state. :raspberry

Best as I can determine, for New Hamshire (yes New Hampshire is a state and is where NERD is):

Native Venomous: Permit required

Exotic Venomous: Permit required

Protected Native Venomous: Permit required

Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus)



New Hampshire Fish and Game Department

2 Hazen Drive

Concord, NH 03301

So yes Virginia, a permit is required in New Hampshire.

[Jim O]

This thread really isn't about Jim back peddling.That's good because I haven't. But if you can find where I have, show me. I'm not holding my breath. Wake me up when it's over...

[sirenofthestorm]

Oh yes, focussing on intellectual property rights and quiblling over two wrong words instead of FREE HANDLING of voids is really the right order of priorities. And no one should have to defend themselves from such action. I forgot.

</sarcasm>

[bcfos]

Well Mr. Rhodes Scholar, they vary from state to state and last time I checked "New England" was not a state. :raspberry

Best as I can determine, for New Hamshire (yes New Hampshire is a state and is where NERD is):

Native Venomous: Permit required

Exotic Venomous: Permit required

Protected Native Venomous: Permit required

Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus)



New Hampshire Fish and Game Department

2 Hazen Drive

Concord, NH 03301

So yes Virginia, a permit is required in New Hampshire.



Thanks Jimbo that is all I needed. Time to use that reverse look up function and give Fish and Game a call Monday morning. :D

Once again thanks bud... ;)

[Rebel Dragons]

Thanks Jimbo that is all I needed. Time to use that reverse look up function and give Fish and Game a call Monday morning. :D

Once again thanks bud... ;)


New Hampshire Fish and Game Department
11 Hazen Drive
Concord, NH 03301

Executive Director’s Office
director@wildlife.state.nh.us 603-271-3511
fax 603-271-1438

Comments
comments@wildlife.state.nh.us

License Information, Merchandise 603-271-3421
or 603-271-3422

License Agent Accounting 603-271-2743

Wildlife Division
wilddiv@wildlife.state.nh.us 603-271-2461
or 603-271-2462

U.S.D.A. Wildlife Services 603-223-6832
Inland Fisheries Division
fish@wildlife.state.nh.us 603-271-2501
or 603-271-2502


Law Enforcement Division
law@wildlife.state.nh.us 603-271-3127
Dispatch
Weekdays, 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.;
Sept. 1 to Dec. 5, 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. 603-271-3361

[bcfos]

Even better gives me time to work on proper emails.

[robin d.]

YOUR ANATOMY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A RESPONSIBLE KEEPER!!

You don't get it.

bthacker
it indeed does..........
let me give you an example....
we have a couple of copperheads up to two years ago i would water them and give them water and feed them... now my eyesight has gotten extremely poor due to some big ass cones (keratoconus) on my corneas...... because of that my husband asked me to no longer help out with the coppers in fact he asked me if i would not handle the bigger contrictors (over 6 feet) with out him there.... these cones are part of my anatomy now and to be a responsible keeper i must realize this... i never put any of our snakes around my neck nor does my husband we discourage those who do even young animals. so yes anatomy does have play a part in respionsible keeping. health problems or not.


i do not agree with the whole void issue but if it is, used for education
purposes only (not breeding projects) and all voids should always be handled as if they hot... it can be a good experience to teach others tongs, hooks tubes correct pinning and holding all protocals of how you would treat a hot anamal.

[Karen Hulvey]

Nice twist Karen.
I believe that I made all this clear in a post this morning. But if there's anywhere where anyone can show that I approved of this activity (aside from Karen's convoluted "You condone it by not condeming it" long after I had indeed condemned it) I would be interested to know where it is.Convoluted = Twist, twist around, pervert.

Sorry folks but I did not twist a single thing. I only posted what others have already posted and I posted those posts in their entirety. Everyone went on and on and on about stealing pictures from a free website to what context the freehandling of hots was done in. IMO that's condoning it by excusing it. Like it matters what context it was in when a Gabon viper is on the ground 4" from someone's knee.
I am not happy with what I see in the pictures either
If the above quote is you "condemning" the fact that NERD freehandled hots, then you're losing your touch, Jim.

Condone = Excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with; "Excuse someone's behavior".

Some people still act like freehandling hots is nothing. But reposting pictures from a free website is baaaaad. Crucify David, he reposted some pictures from a free website. Woohooo, he's gonna get picture posting banned. Yeah, I know some people rectified their mistake yet still blame David and the freehandling hots bit is just a little matter, nothing really.

The pictures speak for themselves. Everyone who views those pictures should be outraged yet we're still fighting over the context in which David posted them. Pathetic, really.

[Jim O]

we're still fighting over the context in which David posted them.No Karen, that discussion was over until you brought it back up.

[Jim O]

you're losing your touch, JimDon't like the kinder, gentler me? :p

[Rockford]

it indeed does..........
let me give you an example....
we have a couple of copperheads up to two years ago i would water them and give them water and feed them... now my eyesight has gotten extremely poor due to some big ass cones (keratoconus) on my corneas...... because of that my husband asked me to no longer help out with the coppers in fact he asked me if i would not handle the bigger contrictors (over 6 feet) with out him there.... these cones are part of my anatomy now and to be a responsible keeper i must realize this... i never put any of our snakes around my neck nor does my husband we discourage those who do even young animals. so yes anatomy does have play a part in respionsible keeping. health problems or not.


i do not agree with the whole void issue but if it is, used for education
purposes only (not breeding projects) and all voids should always be handled as if they hot... it can be a good experience to teach others tongs, hooks tubes correct pinning and holding all protocals of how you would treat a hot anamal.

What? I am sorry I should have said that your brain is the only part of your anatomy that has anything to do with responsible reptile keeping.

Thanks for your insight though.....I guess.

Jim was right after all...... :>poke2<:

Now back to the real issue please......

bthacker

[robin d.]

Now back to the real issue please......

bthacker
what that your a f ucking a sshole, whom can only see one side... like i said i do not agree but there are some other very valid opinions on here.
\
they say you can drown inl less than an inch of water...... does it seem plausable, yes because a friend of mine did.... does it happen often no
so get that corn cob out of your ass , take those f ucking blinders off and start looking at the bigger f ucking picture

[Rockford]

what that your a f ucking a sshole, whom can only see one side... like i said i do not agree but there are some other very valid opinions on here.
\
they say you can drown inl less than an inch of water...... does it seem plausable, yes because a friend of mine did.... does it happen often no
so get that corn cob out of your ass , take those f ucking blinders off and start looking at the bigger f ucking picture

Wow....what a well thought out reply. Does your husband allow you to kiss him with that mouth?

so get that corn cob out of your ass If I do do you want a bite or two?


Drama queen......LOL You are a joke!!!!

bthacker

[robin d.]

Wow....what a well thought out reply. Does your husband allow you to kiss him with that mouth?

so get that corn cob out of your ass If I do do you want a bite or two?


Drama queen......LOL You are a joke!!!!

bthacker
ahh yes i do kiss my husband with that mouth... it's a much nicer version than i would say directly to your face and much nicer than what he would say.

naw you can save that corn cob for anyone who really cares about you ... cuz i sure as hell dont

[Rockford]

LOL.......Wow.. grandma sure does have a way with words....It's past your bedtime now go to bed!!....LOL

[Jim O]

Seems Robin rattled you enough that you couldn't even use the "quotes" function properly. You need to relax man.

And the age thing...look closely at the number. The joke is on you. LMAO.

[robin d.]

LOL.......Wow.. grandma sure does have a way with words....It's past your bedtime now go to bed!!....LOL
if i am a grandma then that makes you are grandpa .... yes i do have away with words i apparantly got my point across... bed time comes at 2 or 3 am still got allot of time........

[Rockford]

Seems Robin rattled you enough that you couldn't even use the "quotes" function properly. You need to relax man.

And the age thing...look closely at the number. The joke is on you. LMAO.


Jim is that the best you can do? Rattled?. And the joke?....HA HA....you and Robin are hella funny. You both are pathetic....

[Rockford]

if i am a grandma then that makes you are grandpa .... yes i do have away with words i apparantly got my point across... bed time comes at 2 or 3 am still got allot of time........

Maybe you should lay off the tweek and go take a long cold bath(don't fall asleep though)....maybe JIMMO can join you.....LOL

[Jim O]

Jim is that the best you can do? Rattled?. And the joke?....HA HA....you and Robin are hella funny. You both are pathetic....Seems you are the one on the defensive here and having a hard time with come backs to robin. And she is a married woman...else I'd be there in a heart beat. :D

[robin d.]

youre grasping for straws.... how pathetic

[Jim O]

I am sorry
Thanks for your insight though.....I guess. Jim was right after all.

bthackerSeems to me that she had you at hello. LMAO.

[Rockford]

Seems to me that she had you at hello. LMAO.

Jim you are too funny! LMAO That is the lamest attempt at humor by far I have seen from you. Truly pathetic and I know alot of folks agree. Get a life or a girlfriend.....really.

LAME! Very lame.

[Jim O]

I know alot of folks agree.If you have spent the minute or two since I posted it taking a poll on it then certainly you are the one in need of a life. :>poke2<:

[Rockford]

If you have spent the minute or two since I posted it taking a poll on it then certainly you are the one in need of a life. :>poke2<:

Don't really need to take a poll.....just need to read other sites including this one. LMAO

[Jim O]

just need to read other sites including this oneSplain me Lucy, how can other sites "include this one"?

[ReptileZone1]

Is NERD ever going to post? I think alot of people have questions that are unanswered... I am not taking any sides as of yet.. I think NERD should come here and make a post to answer some of the unanswered questions... Anybody else feel the same way I do?

[SPJ]

They won't post again to answer the questions.

There are a lot of questions regarding the woma x carpet cross they still haven't answered.

[ReptileZone1]

I am not really sure about the whole woma x carpet thing you are talking about but I think they should post to answer some of the questions.. I think it would be better for there reputation to answer the questions than to just pretend to fall off the face of the planet.. This whole thing makes me weary of buying from them..

[JuliusSqueezer]

What good would it do for them to answer. Them = Kara btw. Jason obviously can't form a thought or he would have known better than to pull this crap in the first place with the voids and the kiddies. Kara will just lie. So really...there is no point. I'm just glad they are finally showing more people the broader side of what they stand for. I'm weary too bro...but then again I have never liked ball pythons much so $32,000 for an inbred snake that could drop dead in a week...really isn't something I'd ever consider even if I thought Kara and Kevin were half as cool as they think they are so losing my business is a moot point lol.

[Ken Harbart]

Last and only reminder to keep it on topic and civil, folks. I've already issued a couple warnings to participants in this thread, and don't really look forward to having to issue out more (to include possible suspensions) in the morning.

[bcfos]

They won't post again to answer the questions.

There are a lot of questions regarding the woma x carpet cross they still haven't answered.


Don't see it happening. They already did damage control on their site so no one could see the true context these pictures were posted in. So and answer would be asking way too much. If they had any intestinal fortitude they would answer, but that would be a big streach for them.

[sirenofthestorm]

Well I would love for brian to be proven wrong :P, but I'm not holding my breath. NERD, friends of kara and kevin, anyone?

[robin d.]

Last and only reminder to keep it on topic and civil, folks. I've already issued a couple warnings to participants in this thread, and don't really look forward to having to issue out more (to include possible suspensions) in the morning.
ok ken
considering the last few weeks here, is suspention such a bad thing?
send it to hell so people can duke it out there








hmmmmmm 2:48 am CST, still waking hours ahhhhh

[CaptainSlackass]

I was blown away by what I saw. I recognized who was in the picture, but I'm sure that others didn't. Some of the people jumping all over David probably did so not because they condoned what they saw... They did so because they couldn't believe that NERD would do something like that, and wanted to be sure that was really NERD, and not something else.

After the facts were played out and NERD did respond, there sure could have been a little more appreciation shown for what David tried to do here. So the presentation was a little bit clumsy. He went out on a limb, and spoke his mind. And he was right.

When I saw these pic's I was speechless. Absolutely dumbstruck. I've always enjoyed Kara's posts, and I've seen some breathtaking animals that are a part of NERDS collection. I'm not talking about the morphs... I've seen drop dead gorgeous Boa's, blood pythons, hell - lot's of things. I've always had the utmost respect for NERD... before this.

As a leader in the industry NERD really should come clean about this whole thing. What's the real story on the origin of these voids?


At this point all of the unanswered questions will look a lot worse than the simple truth possibly could.

[CaptainSlackass]

There's no need to send this to HELL. This is a big issue, and shouldn't be "buried on page 23"... so to speak. If anyone wants to "duke it out" a new thread could easily be started in down there.

[DaveyFig]

I think the initial posting of the pictures is more than enough to warrant the title of the thread, without having to back anything up, and displays the context itself.
Here is what I see in the pictures(and it matches the title, wooohoo!).
A Nerd (some may choose the word dork, or geek to describe him, David chose nerd)

Supporting( that cobra isnt levitatiting, or floating on a cotton candy cloud, and is clearly "supported" by the fella mentioned above)

and playing (yeah, it's "educational" but so is "playing with legos, or a gyroscope)

Voids (this is the only part I am not sure fits with the title without clarification, as there is no evidence in the pictures to show that the snakes in the pictures have been venom-glandularly-neutered)

Yeah, I said "venom-glandularly-neutered" use it, and I will sue...or something

[DaveyFig]

I meant "levitating", but it is 1 am...goodnight all

[Dennis Hultman]

I was blown away by what I saw. I recognized who was in the picture, but I'm sure that others didn't. Some of the people jumping all over David probably did so not because they condoned what they saw... They did so because they couldn't believe that NERD would do something like that, and wanted to be sure that was really NERD, and not something else. .

I would have to agree.

Sorry folks but I did not twist a single thing. I only posted what others have already posted and I posted those posts in their entirety.

Actually, you did not. I was wrong in my initial assessment of what David was all about in his initial post and I stated it.

It appeared by the way it was posted and I pointed it out in my follow-up post to the one you quoted was that David was someone who had a bad transaction with NERD because he rated them negative in their certification.

The discussion took a different path largely because in the same post he said he actually knew nothing about the true origins of the pictures and everyone could go find out for themselves.

I have also stated that, I don't like what I see in the pictures. Not only should voids be handled as hots at all times, I personally believe there should be no voids in the first place. IMO. Rescues or not, they should be treated with more respect.

[Dennis Hultman]

When I saw these pic's I was speechless. Absolutely dumbstruck. I've always enjoyed Kara's posts, and I've seen some breathtaking animals that are a part of NERDS collection. I'm not talking about the morphs... I've seen drop dead gorgeous Boa's, blood pythons, hell - lot's of things. .

I have to agree on this point as well. I have purchased from NERD and have received awesome animals and outstanding customer service. But I have no problems stating that I disagree with photos posted here.

[bcfos]

Now back to the issue at hand. I think educational shows are a great thing for this hobby if done properly. The showboat mentality displayed by those pictures is far from the proper way to do an educational presentation. Venomoid or not that just adds fuel to the fire to ban reptile ownership nation wide. This is not being a good steward for the reptile community at all and I think most will agree with that. Big time breeder or not anyone does this it is just bad for all of us in the long run.

[Chris@TSE]

What a nice pleasant way to spend your free time....

Try to save some chum for the sharks children....



P.S. Freehandling is an unacceptable practice, hot or void. No excuses whatsoever. Try and you're an imbecile. Also unacceptable is the blind ignorance of those willing to overlook these actions of the offender(s) and pounce on the messenger simply due to the name or status of said offender(s). You should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves....

I do beleive the guys (and gals) at NERD should address this matter, and perhaps change thier views and practices. Teaching people not to respect hots correctly is absolutely insane.......

I really do not see the point of further conversation other than a response from NERD.

We now return to your regularly scheduled pissing match here on FaunaTV. For an extra $10 you can get your pissing matches in HDTV! Act now, operators are standing by....

[IanV]

This thread could be 4 pages long easily, and contain all the relevant information needed.
The pictures were stolen, then that was apologized for, lets move on.
The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.
Should this have been handled differently? Yes. I not only look up to and respect both Kevin and Kara, they are both great people whom I have enjoyed all my dealings with, but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not. But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERDS.
But I guess I am just an arse kisser, groupie and everything else applied to members of the NERD and BCF forums.

[Lucille]

I understand, but I am in no way a thief, I have plenty of my own photos to represent my animals. I felt this should be brought to attention here and I posted them here. I have very strong opinions about Voids and showing them at party is NOT a safe thing to do at all, it will only bring on worse things for hot keepers. I accept anyones opinions but this is just asking for trouble IMO.

A good reply.
Parents, and the public, may assume that 'voids' mean 'voids'. From what I have read, and please correct if I have read wrong, the surgery to make a hot into a void is not 100% guaranteed.

I am against voids for many reasons, the surgery is hell on the poor snake, and as I mentioned above, from what I understand, it is not a sure thing.

Whoever bears responsibility for visitors, children and others at a public function, there is no question in my mind that it is the hot community that would ultimately be made to pay, because of bad press, if a fatality should somehow occur under such circumstances.

[sirenofthestorm]

The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.


Should this have been handled differently? Yes... but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not. But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERD's.

Firstly, who was the original poster? Could be that I haven't slept all night but I can't find the forum on their website. Someone please point it out to me if I'm totally blind. And did anyone on the original forum raise any safety concerns?

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra? Even IF the parents had known that the snakes were venomoid, was the fact that glands can regenerate explained to them? Did they have a full working definition of venomoid on which to base their decision? Chances of that are slim, and because of that fact, if a child had in fact been bit, there would be lawyers and reporters all over the debacle. Its not as if the people there signed a liability waiver, and that is the important thing to keep in mind.

Again, I'd like someone who can speak for NERD or at least someone who can offer up a "they're busy sitting on their thumbs" to post. I don't think its too much to ask that someone answer as to why this took place and whether this was the last time freehandling hots with the general population will happen on their property.

[IanV]

Firstly, who was the original poster? Could be that I haven't slept all night but I can't find the forum on their website. Someone please point it out to me if I'm totally blind. And did anyone on the original forum raise any safety concerns?
I don't think he wants his name thrown around, since he has not posted to this. If he so chooses, he can come here and gie out his name but it is not my place to do so.
I did not see the whole thread, so I am not sure who posted what. If it was still around, I would look through it to see (all I remember is there was 5 or 6 threads full of pictures).

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra?
Because, not only was I not there, I don't know the entire situation and if parents were informed or not. I don't know if the kids were the original posters children (and he has a working knowledge of voids).
Again, I'd like someone who can speak for NERD or at least someone who can offer up a "they're busy sitting on their thumbs" to post.

If you want a quick answer, you may want to call them. They are busy people.

Ian van Natter

[Cat_72]

This thread has really taken some turns since I left. All the childish name calling aside, I would like to clarify some of the statements that I made, since apparently it was taken that I was condoning the things shown in the pictures.

I do not recognise Kevin or Kara by sight, nor have I ever spent any time on their website studying their building. When the pictures were first posted, when we asked for more information, all we got was a "go look it up yourself". For all I knew, the pictures were of some idiots who bought NERD tshirts at a show or online, and I knew nothing about where this was taking place or who was involved. THAT was the issue I was addressing.....I guess not knowing for certain who the people in the pictures were, and also thinking that Kevin and Kara would KNOW better.....my concern was that this was being labeled something it wasn't, and that crazycorn didn't even have the ambition to go check his facts before posting it. The whole beginning of the thread was handled poorly......as I said, I would check my facts before posting something that could be damaging to one's business and reputation.

So....my wanting clarification and/or proof that this was actually a NERD sponsored activity is CONDONING it???

I also stated that I have strong feelings against voids in general, this of course includes the irresponsible handling of them. Obviously now, it has been shown that YES, these are pictures from NERD, and YES, they were handling them very irresponsibly......but I personally didn't know that for sure at the time.

So......me wanting to make sure I KNEW for a FACT who and what these pictures were before "bashing" NERD for what is contained in them makes me CONDONING it??? Not hardly. I simply wanted to know that I wasn't jumping on someone for something as serious as this with no reason. And when someone just tells me they are just wasting time, and to go look at it for myself, well....it doesn't usually say much about them.

If crazycorn could look back at the points he received (and had a membership that allowed him to see who gave him what for points) he could see that I gave him POSITIVE points after he started posting in a more mature manner.

No one at the beginning of this thread said that they weren't disturbed by what they saw.....I was DEEPLY disturbed by it. If wanting to know for CERTAIN what is going on in the photos before believing what a third party says is true about them is condoning it......sheesh. I fail to see that connection.

[Karen Hulvey]

I would like to clarify some of the statements that I made, since apparently it was taken that I was condoning the things shown in the pictures.

How many times do I have to do this? It's all there in black & white. I went and reread (again!) the first 4 pages and not one single person even bothered to mention the fact that there were people freehandling hots, not one! Sure a few of you said you don't support voids. Whooptedo, what's that got to do with the fact that people were freehandling hots within inches of bystanders? Everyone was too caught up in this picture stealing bit. But reprinting a free picture isn't stealing.

No one at the beginning of this thread said that they weren't disturbed by what they saw.....I was DEEPLY disturbed by it. If wanting to know for CERTAIN what is going on in the photos before believing what a third party says is true about them is condoning it......sheesh. I fail to see that connection. And no one said they were disturbed either. If you can't figure out, simply by looking at the pictures, what is going on in them then I feel sorry for you. Maybe next time captions would help.

[Cat_72]

So......you're saying that if I posted pictures of some unknown people doing the same thing, and told everyone it was YOU.....that everyone should bash YOU without questioning?

I'm sorry...I want to know for a FACT who is in the picture before jumping on them.

Yeah, sure "captions" would help.....IF it wasn't some unknown third party that put them there.

[Cat_72]

And BTW......I don't believe I EVER mentioned "picture stealing"....I simply wanted proof of who was in the pictures.

[Karen Hulvey]

So......you're saying that if I posted pictures of some unknown people doing the same thing, and told everyone it was YOU.....that everyone should bash YOU without questioning?That is EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. There is no doubt in my mind at all that if pictures were posted of me or saying it was me doing the exact same thing, people would be all over it like white on rice. I'd be ostracized and have my gluteus maximus handed to me on a platter. But because it's a "big name" in the business people fall all over themselves to CONDONE it.

Definition of Condone: Excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with;

BTW here is your first post on the subject. It really sounds like you were "deeply disturbed" by what you saw. You are against voids, we got it. But the words excuse, overlook, make allowances for, be lenient with slip into my mind. The truth is in the pictures but you still wish to condone what went on because NERD did it.
Perhaps if YOU do not even know the context in which they were originally posted, it wasn't such a good idea to post them here and add your own thoughts to them......which COULD be far from the truth.
I have strong feelings against voids myself, but I don't think I would have made a post like this without knowing for CERTAIN what those pictures were all about.
And BTW......I don't believe I EVER mentioned "picture stealing"....I simply wanted proof of who was in the pictures.No did not mention picture stealing. You were too worried about reputation points and if David could see who gave him some and who has a paid membership and who doesn't. Then it gets better.
Now WHERE in that does it say they SUPPORT VOIDS???? Uh, they could very well be showing their RESCUED voids, using them as an educational tool?Right here is where you CONDONE their actions. Page 10 Post #47. There is a way to show rescued voids and a way to use them and educate people. If you think that is the way to handle venomous animals, then I suggest you refrain from buying any. If you think NERD did it the right way, then you're wrong.
Thanks so much for the clarification, Kara.

Now if this youngster would have just come to you and asked, I think this whole nasty thread could have been avoided.....I'm sorry you even had to deal with it.Here is another example where you CONDONE what they did.
I think we're ALL waiting......and I think you owe Kara an apology as well.Still condoning. Why does David owe Kara an apology? He posted truth. "NERD supports voids and plays with them." It is all there in the pictures.
Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.Here is yet another example of a poster CONDONING the freehandling of hots a few feet from children.

How much more proof do you need? I can cut and paste all day. You people make this too easy.

[Dennis Hultman]

And no one said they were disturbed either. If you can't figure out, simply by looking at the pictures, what is going on in them then I feel sorry for you. Maybe next time captions would help.

Karen, I am deeply disturbed that your cat appears to be on LSD. Since it is your cat and he appears on every single post you make, I have no choice but to believe you have drugged all your animals so you can take silly little pictures of them. :hehe:

[Karen Hulvey]

Karen, I am deeply disturbed that your cat appears to be on LSD. Since it is your cat and he appears on every single post you make, I have no choice but to believe you have drugged all your animals so you can take silly little pictures of them. :hehe:
That is funny, Dennis. You were joking, right? No that's not my cat. I got that picture from another website. Okay everyone jump all over me and get off the subject at hand. I used a picture posted on a free website.

Let's get back to the subject of NERD freehandling hots with bystanders a few feet away. Where is everyone's outrage? Why aren't there tons of people jumping in and using all sorts of crude language? Now why is that? I know why (because NERD is a "big name")but I would like others' opinions on this as well.

[Cat_72]

Quote:


That is EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. There is no doubt in my mind at all that if pictures were posted of me or saying it was me doing the exact same thing, people would be all over it like white on rice. I'd be ostracized and have my gluteus maximus handed to me on a platter. But because it's a "big name" in the business people fall all over themselves to CONDONE it.

Cripes Karen.....all I was doing was trying to AVOID "handing ANYONE their gluteus maximus" without having proof. I would have said the same things whther it was NERD, you, or Joe Blow whose name was being splattered all over witrh nothing to support it. If you think that my trying to determine if the pics were genuinely of NERD or not before "ostracizing" them is wrong, I think YOU are the one that people should be feeling sorry for.

Copy and paste all you like......if I had been given ALL of the information NOW contained in this thread at the beginning instead of being told to "go find it myself" (which I could not find the pics on NERDs site, so I was questioning the original post even more) SOME of my replies would have been different. But I will ALWAYS believe that before making such serious accusations against someone, you better have proof or I WILL question it. I'm not someone who is just going to jump on someone's ass....ANYONE'S ass, be it a "big time breeder" or a name I've never heard before.....without PROOF.

What it all boils down to is this.........I never meant ANY of my posts to condone ANYTHING going on in those pictures, as I'm sure many others didn't either. But isn't it better to know for a FACT to to blame than just condemning someone who could have had nothing to do with it? You say "The truth is in the pictures".....but if I can't recognise Kevin or Kara by looking at them, how am I to know it is them?

[Karen Hulvey]

be it a "big time breeder" or a name I've never heard before.....without PROOF.

What it all boils down to is this.........I never meant ANY of my posts to condone ANYTHING going on in those pictures, as I'm sure many others didn't either. But isn't it better to know for a FACT to to blame than just condemning someone who could have had nothing to do with it? You say "The truth is in the pictures".....but if I can't recognise Kevin or Kara by looking at them, how am I to know it is them?Then why, after Kara said it was them and you know 100% who it is, do you still condone what they did? Here's what you wrote to refresh your memory.
Thanks so much for the clarification, Kara.

Now if this youngster would have just come to you and asked, I think this whole nasty thread could have been avoided.....I'm sorry you even had to deal with it.
and
I think we're ALL waiting......and I think you owe Kara an apology as well.
and then Rebel Dragons condoned it as well here
Anywho.................... I also believe you need to apologize to Kara.

I guess you forgot that NERD freehanded hots a few feet from bystanders. You only start harping on how you are deeply disturbed by it because others spoke out about you condoning it. Again condoning means to excuse which is what your post to Kara did: ("THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE CLARIFICATION, KARA)

[crazycorn]

Well I must say, this is not surprising that NERD will not post. What are you afraid of Kara? The truth? Oh and BTW I did get my hands on the list of who gave me feed back and I must say, some people confuse me.....

[Cat_72]

I'm not going to argue about my intentions here any more.....no matter what I say, it seems some people are going to see what they WANT to see, read into it what they want to read into it. Perhaps I too could have worded some things differently, not to mention that posts were being posted at the same time people were typing theirs, so things were missed and actually posted rather "out of order", if you will....but it is all a moot point.

Regardless.......I will re-state once again, now that I know for a fact what actually was going on in those photos, I would really like to hear what Kevin and Kara have to say about it. What they were doing WAS reckless and irresponsible, and I think they have some 'splaining to do.

[crazycorn]

Also on a side note... I have sent and Email and PM to NERD asking them to answer questions here, yet I still doubt they will. Right now it seems they are using ostrich tactics.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Last and only reminder to keep it on topic and civil, folks. I've already issued a couple warnings to participants in this thread, and don't really look forward to having to issue out more (to include possible suspensions) in the morning.
Out of curriosity Ken, what are your thoughts on this particular NERD event? I know you and Kara are extremely close friends. I'm not asking with a "told ya so" attitude. I am asking because I am truely concerned that this kinda thing is going on and maybe you as someone whe would actually listen to could say "Hey Kara and Kevin, wtf were you thinking?" I am reasonably sure that this thread will cause them to be more careful of what is photographed and posted on their own site but I don't think it alone will convince them that they are not acting as very good representatives for our hobby.

[CaptainSlackass]

Secondly, Why aren't you deeply disturbed by (very) young children touching a cobra?


Because, not only was I not there, I don't know the entire situation and if parents were informed or not. I don't know if the kids were the original posters children (and he has a working knowledge of voids).


Ian - stop apologizing for NERD...

For one thing, David didn't "steal" anything. It was a free public use forum. The worst thing that he's guilty of is not citing his source. There are pictures that people use as avatars and such ALL over the net. It may be slightly rude, but it's hardly illegal.

The fact that this was done by people you consider friends is obviously clouding the issue with you. Take a step back, forget it's Kevin, and LOOK at what's being presented. It doesn't matter whether or not the parents knew they were voids. Do the parents have a full understanding about voids? Do they understand how the procedure works? Or that it's only rarely done by an actual liscenced veterinarian?
But that would all be completely beside the point because voids simply shouldn't be handled like that at all. Furhtermore they certainly shouldn't be showboated as completely safe versions of the worlds most deadly reptiles, especially to children.


Sometimes people make poor choices. Everyone makes mistakes ... even the biggest names in the industry are still just normal people like everyone else. They screwed up, I hope this doesn't happen again, and I'd like to see more clarification about this, from them.

If you want a quick answer, you may want to call them. They are busy people.

You're making excuses for them. If they're really "too busy" to respond to this public relations nightmare, I'd have to wonder why not.

[Gary O]

I have one more question for NERD.

What was there to gain by allowing hands on with hots?

I have tried to look at this in every why I could but the reason I always end up with it this

We are NERD and we do what we want, and we can handle hots see how cool we are.

[bcfos]

This thread could be 4 pages long easily, and contain all the relevant information needed.

Then why add to it as you are if that is the case?

The pictures were stolen, then that was apologized for, lets move on.

Stolen no public forum and fair use laws for photographs cover the idea of criticism and review. Given the public posting on a free website prior to this, there's no legal basis for reprecussions for his use of them. And it was stated they were from NERDS forum so everyone was keen to this fact.

The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.

Are you a moderator or an administrator of that forum? If not please explain how you know they were not removed by a moderator or administrator seeing that if you are neither you can't view the logs for the site. Or do you have a crystal ball you can tell such things with?


Should this have been handled differently? Yes. I not only look up to and respect both Kevin and Kara, they are both great people whom I have enjoyed all my dealings with, but I was a little disturbed that kids were allowed to touch the snakes, void or not.

At least you were "A Little Disturbed". Quite frankly you should have been more than a LITTLE disturbed.


But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERDS.

And would you be willing to bet these parents don't know the fact that a venomoid can in some cases regenerate and become venomous again. I bet not. They were quite possible not as informed as you think they were.

But I guess I am just an arse kisser, groupie and everything else applied to members of the NERD and BCF forums.

You said it I didn't. And we will leave it at that.

[DaveyFig]

What was there to gain by allowing hands on with hots?

That is a great question. IF all of those other animals mentioned were used in the show already, what could possibly added by showing the voids? Do you think anyone that attendended would have cared that there were not representatives of the venomous world being handed around for show and tell?
How many voids were used? How many cobras do you have to have loose in the grass to teach about cobras?
I think a better teaching tool would be to leave them in their enclosures and feed them, but I guess it depends on what you are trying to teach.
If you are trying to show that herps aren't slimy evil things, then of course you have to let kids play with them.

[Gary O]

Ok sense NERD is not going to reply(That is their choice) I have a few questions for all members

1) What would you have done if you walked up to a show like this

2) When you found out it was NERD would it have changed the way you would have handled it?

3) Would you allow your child to pet a "Void"?

[Rockford]

Ok sense NERD is not going to reply(That is their choice) I have a few questions for all members

1) What would you have done if you walked up to a show like this

2) When you found out it was NERD would it have changed the way you would have handled it?

3) Would you allow your child to pet a "Void"?


My answers:

1) I would have asked who the hell was in charge and asked them if they were on drugs. I probably would have told them to pack it up or the authorities would be on there way but that's all this hobby needs is bad publicity. In fact a reporter could be writing up a hobby mutilating story as we type. Anyone think of that???

2)Hell no.....I have never bought anything from them and never will. A name only goes so far.

3)Hell no.......My child would not even be allowed in my snakeroom with hots unless fully supervised. My child would never be allowed to pet a hot. I don't care if the snakes head was missing. It's a bad lesson.

I would like to apologize to all for going off-topic and acting like a 3 year old arguing with the other "kids". It is really hard to resist but it seems the real topic is still getting bypassed with a few people wondering if they were condoning the these horrendous actions. Get over it. Karen has explained it pretty well, written in English for everyone to understand.

It also seems no matter how much we think this is wrong you will always have voiders thinking that NERD did nothing wrong and this is where the real problem lies. You can argue with these people till the cows come home and they just won't get it.

PLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT VOIDERS IN ANYWAY.......It is truly bad for our hobby. It promotes hot keeping without proper handling. Accidents will truly arise from the increased mishandling of these poor creatures. I don't know about you but I like keeping my snakes and the legislative threat needs more accidents and more idiotic publicity to get all fired up.......the threat doesn't need anymore fuel.


bthacker

[JuliusSqueezer]

If you are trying to show that herps aren't slimy evil things, then of course you have to let kids play with them. Hardly seems to be the case when Kevin was teasing a cobra into striking with a barely out of strike range finger for the spectators to OOO an AHHH over.

[DaveyFig]

You just had to pic the one part of my post where I was being sarcastic didnt you?Oh well.
I will say here that there is NEVER a reason that a child should be put in a position to interact with a venomous reptile,educational or not ( I say venomous ,cause I can!The species and subspecific descriptions of the animals state that they are venomous, and cutting body parts out doesn't change their nomenclature)

[JuliusSqueezer]

You just had to pic the one part of my post where I was being sarcastic didnt you?Oh well.
I will say here that there is NEVER a reason that a child should be put in a position to interact with a venomous reptile,educational or not ( I say venomous ,cause I can!The species and subspecific descriptions of the animals state that they are venomous, and cutting body parts out doesn't change their nomenclature)
LOL Sorry man...the sarcasm was noted and snickered at. I meant to just quote the first phrase..." If you are trying to show that herps aren't slimy evil things," and actually...some nearsighted NERD groupies might actually think that's the case lol...I cringed after I hit enter but there is no editing these posts :slamit:

[SPJ]

1) What would you have done if you walked up to a show like this
I would have been furious and probably would have had an embarressed wife from the scene I would have caused letting everyone know that this type of display is unacceptable.

2) When you found out it was NERD would it have changed the way you would have handled it?
Yes. I would have made a BIGGER scene because they "should" know better.

3) Would you allow your child to pet a "Void"?
HELL NO!
I have non vens that I won't allow my kids to touch.
Only a moron would be so reckless with a void.

[DaveyFig]

1) What would you have done if you walked up to a show like this

I would have taken pictures with my camera phone, like the guy in the pink shirt. I betcha he told everyone he sent the pics to that they were venomoids too. I am sure he didn't just say "Rattlesnake" or "COBRA", as he was "educated" by NERD, and would have been able to convey everything that they told him about the animals they were using.
Honestly, I probably would have raised a stink, using tact of course, that would have led to some name calling, at which point I would have to find other ways to send my message.

2) When you found out it was NERD would it have changed the way you would have handled it?
Yeah, I probably would have taken them in the front of the building, rather than off to the side for their public beating, so that more people could see me make my point.

3) Would you allow your child to pet a "Void"?
I would never allow my daughter near a venomous snake, even if all the other little girls were doing it.

[IanV]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanV
The pictures were removed from the website by the original poster. It does not look like any mod or admin removed them.


Are you a moderator or an administrator of that forum? If not please explain how you know they were not removed by a moderator or administrator seeing that if you are neither you can't view the logs for the site. Or do you have a crystal ball you can tell such things with?

Yes I am. Some of us get the full details before flying off the handle Brian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanV
But, if the parents were there and knew that the snakes were voided, and then OK'd it, that is more of the parents problem than NERDS.


And would you be willing to bet these parents don't know the fact that a venomoid can in some cases regenerate and become venomous again. I bet not. They were quite possible not as informed as you think they were.

And, quite possible, they were much more informed than you think they were.
Ian - stop apologizing for NERD...
Patrick, it is neither my place nor my duty to apologize for NERD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanV
But I guess I am just an arse kisser, groupie and everything else applied to members of the NERD and BCF forums.


You said it I didn't. And we will leave it at that.
And the members of TRR are the ONLY ones on the net who are not groupies, I guess I finally figured it out.

1) What would you have done if you walked up to a show like this
Pulled whoever was in charge aside and figured out why they were using hots that close to kids.

2) When you found out it was NERD would it have changed the way you would have handled it?
No
3) Would you allow your child to pet a "Void"?
No, but I do not have children.

[SPJ]

Ian how can you still justify the crap they pulled?

I didn't specifically name people in the pics but in this case I will.

Do you think it is OK for Kevin to purposely provoke a cobra into striking?

Do you think it is OK for him to put two on the ground facing each other with the public right next to them?

Do you think it is OK to allow kids to pet potentially dangerous animals like these?

Do you think it is OK to just lie down next to these snakes and play with them? How fast can you react when you are lying down if something goes wrong?

You mean to tell me that Kevin or anyone else told the spectators to come on over and pet these cobras since they are venemoids but oh, by the way, even though they have been altered they still have large fangs that can cause a painful bite and there is a chance for infection and they may not be voids after all since they surgery may have been botched and there is a chance of regenration.

BS. I don't believe for a minute that any parent who was FULLY informed of the risks of freehandling a void would have allowed their children to pet them.

Get over yourself and admit that no explanation can justify the reckless display that NERD put on.

[CaptainSlackass]

And the members of TRR are the ONLY ones on the net who are not groupies, I guess I finally figured it out.

That's not fair, Ian. Most of the posters to this thread are members of many forums. I see that most are paid members of this forum for instance. If you'll look over at my profile at BCF you'll find that I've had more posts over there than I show at TRR. This isn't about cliques and it isn't about condoning anything. It isn't about stealing pictures and it isn't about taking sides. All of that stuff is just a distraction from the real issue.

This is about an industry leader that unfortunatley made a very bad move here. Do they do this sort of thing all the time? They have a good name, one of the best in the industry, and yet they've set a really horrible example here. I personally have always liked the folks at NERD. I've always enjoyed Kara's posts, and I've never had any issues with them at all. If this is typical behaviour for them, my opinion will change drastically. So will a lot of other people's opinions change. That's what we're all waiting to hear. What the Hell were they thinking?

Kara, if you're reading this, please let us know where you guys really stand on this. If you think it's no big deal, then tell us so. This is America, you're entitled to do what you want - but there's a whole lot of former and future customers of yours out here that want to know who exactly they've been supporting all these years. Is that asking too much?

I'm probably not going to be all that popular at BCF now. That's unfortunate, because I think by and large theres a really good bunch of people over there. But I've never been one to back down from something I believe in just because it might make me unpopular.

[SPJ]

One more question Ian since you seem to know so much about this spectacle.

Who was the underwriter for this day of lunacy?

I spend more on my liability insurance for presentations than I do for my house and new cars with full coverage and I don't display hots in public.

Wait, were they NOT insured for this? Surely they had a massive bond for the day or upped their existing coverage but wait, what insurance company is going to cover them when they purposely allow kids to touch cobras?

You premiums do NOT make a distinction between venemoids and fully hot snakes.

[Rockford]

Hey folks:

Arguing with Ian would be like arguing with your neighbor's dog. It's impossible.
Anyone remember the Snakesnare?http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65471&page=11&pp=5 (http://)

I am guilty of it but let's stay on track and find out what NERD is going to say or do.

bthacker

[Rockford]

Captainslackass....What is BCF? Is that another forum?

[CaptainSlackass]

BCF = Bob Clark's Forum.

[IanV]

That's not fair, Ian.
No, it's not. I am a member of many of the same forums as you, and I know you from the BCF and I have no problems with you in the least. I however was not the one that started throwing the names groupy around (well, maybe on this thread but not on TRR).

Ian how can you still justify the crap they pulled?
I don't believe I have justified anything in this matter, and I have gone out and spoken against it, even though Kara is a great friend of mine.

I don't buy the regeneration talk, and I don't buy the talk that two large fangs will lead to more infection. A bite from a snake hurts, and you risk infection. Hell, I had a rat bite my thumb and that got infected and I ended up paying $600 dollars in medical bills and almost ended up in the hospital with a staph infection. Had I been as careless with a python bite, I would have had the same problem, possibly worse.
Get over yourself and admit that no explanation can justify the reckless display that NERD put on.
I don't seem to be the one here that is mad that people don't do exactly what I want them to.

[CaptainSlackass]

The folks at BCF and Nerd have always been pretty tight. I've never been to Nerd's forum, but I know that Kara is a very prominent member of BCF, and is very popular there.

[CaptainSlackass]

I don't buy the regeneration talk, and I don't buy the talk that two large fangs will lead to more infection.

If the surgery was a simple duct ligation, then YES they can regenerate. If the entire glands were removed I don't think they can regenerate. The fact is that these animals were supposedly rescues. Who knows who did the surgery... who knows how well it went, who knows if it was done in a garage or at a liscenced veterinary clinic. Actually, I'll bet that NERD knows, and I'd like to hear them make some kind of a statement about all of this. The whole problem with voids is that for something that is so potentially dangerous - there are NO established safety inspections, No protocols for how it is done, and in most cases it isn't even done legally. Unless you actually watched the procedure yourself, or have documentation from an actual veterinary clinic, guaranteeing the quality of the procedure - how can you trust these guys? Especially with children...

[Rebel Dragons]

All the childish bull**** aside, why is this thread continuing on? It has been established that NO ONE here supports playing with voids, especially near crowds and children.

I know many of you could go on for 100 more pages beating this dead horse. And if thats what y'all plan on doing more power to ya.

NERD is not going to post a reply. If they had, it would have happen by now. And to be honest with y'all, why would they want too? No one wants to dive head first into a fire pit. And that is exactly what this thread has turned into. A bunch of troglodytes waiting for there victim to make an appearance.

It is apparent that many of you have had a grudge against NERD for quite some time. There are even a few names that can be seen on this thread for hours and hours at one time. Have a life??? Spending that time sharpening your pitchforks???

It's a beautiful Sunday afternoon go BBQ or something, no need to sit here waiting for something that is never going to happen.

[IanV]

If the surgery was a simple duct ligation, then YES they can regenerate.
I thought the gland were always removed, I didn't know that sometimes they do a duct ligation. So I retract the statement that I don't buy the regeneration at all.
how can you trust these guys? Especially with children...
I wouldn't trust ANY snake with children. Kids are naturally inquisitive, and want to touch anything, and do not realize that a snake could bite them faster than anyone can react.
It was a dangerous situation, lets be glad that no one got hurt. But any time children around snakes, it is a potentially dangerous situation.
NERD is not going to post a reply. If they had, it would have happen by now. And to be honest with y'all, why would they want too? No one wants to dive head first into a fire pit. And that is exactly what this thread has turned into. A bunch of troglodytes waiting for there victim to make an appearance.
You don't have to worry about hurting our feeling, tell us how you really feel :)
I agree, no matter what NERD says it will not make certain people happy.
Very few are actually as concerned as they make it out to be, its just another reason to go on attack at NERD.
It's a beautiful Sunday afternoon go BBQ or something,
Best thing I have heard on this thread so far. We are pulling the pig out of the imu in about an hour :D

[crazycorn]

No one wants to dive head first into a fire pit. And that is exactly what this thread has turned into.
Uhh hmmmm, what do you think I did earlier in this thread? It may not have been fun but I would think NERD would want their name cleared. Of course not they are just as bad as some of the people that get bad posts on the BOI IMO.
NERD is not going to post a reply.
IMO thats taking a common manuvere many 'bad guys' take.

Hell, I will go so far as to say I will retract all my bad statments about them if they can show to me they will better themselves after this, what do you say Kara and Kevin? Sounds like a good deal to me.

[CaptainSlackass]

There are even a few names that can be seen on this thread for hours and hours at one time. Have a life???

Not speaking for anyone but myself. My computer is on 24/7. I simply collapse a window without closing it. It may appear that i've been staring at the screen for hours, but nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm about to leave the house. I'll be collapsing the window, but it will still appear as though I'm here for several more hours to come. Try not to blow a fuse about it, thanks.

[bcfos]

Yes I am. Some of us get the full details before flying off the handle Brian.

I didn't know because I am not stuck up anyones rear end.


And, quite possible, they were much more informed than you think they were.

Maybe but looks like we will never know doesn't it?

And the members of TRR are the ONLY ones on the net who are not groupies, I guess I finally figured it out.


And who said that? You.. Pot please meet the kettle.



No, but I do not have children.

The world is a much better place now. ;)

[CaptainSlackass]

I don't think they'll be responding either. That's too bad though. I haven't been "sharpening my pitchfork" as you so sanguinely describe...

I'd just like to think that the leader in the herp industry would be willing to step up and let us know what's going on. If they don't respond here (and I doubt they will), I hope that they at least release a statement somewhere that can eventually be posted here.

[crazycorn]

I have to agree, I leave my PC on from the AM to the PM and will forget to close a window and just sit idle for the whole day....

[crazycorn]

Trust me, this thread will haunt them if they don't clear it up.

[Rockford]

Not speaking for anyone but myself. My computer is on 24/7. I simply collapse a window without closing it. It may appear that i've been staring at the screen for hours, but nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm about to leave the house. I'll be collapsing the window, but it will still appear as though I'm here for several more hours to come. Try not to blow a fuse about it, thanks.

Well considering that the original poster of the above comment has about 10 times the amount of posts than you in about the same amount of time on this site says alot. Not that you are worried I wouldn't give Mike much thought. He has been on this site this weekend probably more than anyone.

bthacker

[Rockford]

My bad I meant to quote Mr. Shoemaker.

[Chris@TSE]

Can't help but keep it going guys eh?!

Baiting and random BS to 'fill the time' is not going to get you your reply any sooner.....

I have not seen one original thought or idea for pagessssss..... If NERD responds then I can see fruther contributions, if not then I guess they are perfectly happy allowing this to be everyones final perception of them. Ultimately it is their choice now isnt it?! They can choose to respond or to keep quiet. Thier choice. Going onnnnnn and onnnnnnnnn about it does nothing but make you look like rainman.

172 toothpicks.... yeah..... 172 toothpicks....yeah..... couting cards....yeah... counting cards....

Congrats. You've all mastered the fine art of stating what is now obvious.

We know freehandling is wrong, we know there is no excuse..... All you can do now is await an answer.

There is no point in looking like a bunch of hungry piranha trapped in a muddy puddle during a drought..... Go outside and spend some time with your family.

[Rockford]

Can't help but keep it going guys eh?!


There is no point in looking like a bunch of hungry piranha trapped in a muddy puddle during a drought..... Go outside and spend some time with your family.

LOL...What we choose to with our free time is our choice. Of all people.....you are giving this advice....LOL

What a joke!