Eastern Indigo Hatchlings [Archive]

robertbruce

07-05-2006, 05:33 PM

I have 2006 season Eastern Indigo hatchlings available now. Most are the red-throat form as all of my parents are red-throats. There are very few breeders with Easterns this year, particularly the red-throat form. For the last two years, I have been the top producing breeder in the world, with the largest breeding colony of Eastern Indigos anywhere.

When an Eastern Indigo has a red throat and face, the irises of the eyes are also red colored and this allows the handler to see the animal's eyes and in particular, where the animal is looking. Usually this is at the handler, as Easterns are extremely curious and personable, and make nearly continuous eye contact with whoever is in the room or handling them. All-black Easterns, although equally personable, have all-black eyes which are harder to distinguish from the body scales making it difficult to perceive the eye contact this animal is famous for. I personally think the red-throat form is a more beautiful animal as well.

Attached is a picture of one of my 06 hatchlings. The juvenile speckling will disappear as the animal matures leaving solid black, glossy, irridescent scales. This animal is looking at me and wondering what to make of the flashes of light, as it hadn't been photographed before.

I am beginning to release 2006 hatchlings. Males and pairs are available, $1,100 each. I also have a small number of yearling pairs (inquire if interested).

Compared with other reptiles, Easterns hold their value year after year. Ten years ago, hatchlings sold for $350 to $450. A federal permit is required for shipments outside of California. I work with buyers on their permit applications (easy actually) to make sure they are approved. No one that has applied for a permit for a purchase from me has ever been denied one. I also try to help people with their husbandry and breeding efforts. The world needs more keepers and breeders of Eastern Indigos.

You can e-mail me directly at robert.bruce@sbcglobal.net or phone at (310) 502-6311.

DesertHerper

07-21-2006, 09:20 AM

Do you produce a huge number of these every year or is this just a snake that's very hard to sell as I've seen you listing them for months now.. I'm asking because while I'm very interested in getting a trio of them I don't wanna deal with a snake that can't be sold.. Also, what is the reason for such a raise in price as I would guess that it's not demand due to you having to place so many ads to sell them.. I'm not being rude here so please don't take it that way, I'm honestly interested but just don't have the time to post ad after ad to sell a snake that doesn't produce large numbers of eggs as it is..

kmurphy

07-21-2006, 10:27 AM

You may want to copy this post into the Indigo General Discussion board. You will probably get many more answers there. I don't believe that indigos are difficult to sell but I understand they're difficult to successfully breed.

DeadIrishD

07-21-2006, 01:22 PM

and it's not always that they are hard to sell per say, I think some would just rather not go through the process of getting a permit or anything thats needed.

Hector

07-25-2006, 11:44 AM

I may be wrong but you don't need a permit to sell local! Only when you cross state lines.

epidemic

07-28-2006, 02:20 PM

First: Robert has perhaps the largest and most diverse single collection of D. couperi in the world and produces more babies each year than anyone else.

Second: D. couperi are in high demand and most who produce them have waiting lists, but as was mentioned, USF&W interstate commerce permits are required for sales and trades across state lines, though such are not required for in intrastate transaction. Also, D. couperi can be shipped interstate without permits if the specimen is a gift or placed on breeding loan.

and finally

Third: Supply and demand determine the price of most things in a free market system and I have foudn Robert's prices to be in line with most other breeders and slightly less when you realize the demand and scarcity of nice red-chinned specimens.

Drymarchon spp. are great animals to work with and I am certain if you conducted a bit more research into the genus and spoke with a few breeders, you will find all of the answers to the questions you posed...

Best regards,

Jeff

Hector

07-28-2006, 02:50 PM

So whats your point! I simply stated you don't need a permit to sell within your own state limits!

varnyard

07-28-2006, 03:11 PM

I would like to have some of them, but I live in Florida. We have them wild here as well, but collection is a no, no for sure. I don't even think we can have a permit here for them. :rolleyes:

epidemic

07-28-2006, 03:32 PM

My post was not directed to you specifically, but rather the original post as presented by Marcia. There is often a great deal of confusion surrounding the shipping of D. couperi and you merely pointed out a single aspect of such...

That, my friend, is my point!

Jeff

epidemic

07-28-2006, 05:02 PM

One cannot keep D. couperi in Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, New York or New Jersey without a state permit and I only know of two private individuals who have obtained permits in Florida and one who is having any degree of success with obtaining such in Georgia. However, the New York and New Jersey permits are issued on a regular basis.
Folks in Florida and Georgia normally have to settle with keeping other members of the Dry clan, such as Texas Indigos and Mexican West Coast Indigos...

Best regards,

Jeff

kmurphy

07-28-2006, 07:59 PM

You need a permit in Maine also. I don't know if it is difficult to get. But I am thinking of making the attempt.

Kevin

epidemic

07-29-2006, 05:49 PM

I know that a few states require a local permit to keep any species amended to the US Endangered Species Act, which certainly includes D. couperi, and I would imagine such permits are much easier to acquire in states outside the current or historical ranges of the desired species. Of course, for those unable to acquire permits for D. couperi, there are always D. m erebennus and D. m rubidus to keep, both of which are equally impressive and similar in habit to their D. couperi cousins... ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff

DesertHerper

08-01-2006, 12:38 AM

Third: Supply and demand determine the price of most things in a free market system and I have foudn Robert's prices to be in line with most other breeders and slightly less when you realize the demand and scarcity of nice red-chinned specimens.

Based on this statement you wouldn't think there were 4 breeders trying to sell them currently without any luck... Based on supply and demand not only will a price go up but down as well, something clearly none of them want to publicly do.. I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck..

I guess as sad as it is to say, the politics and greed that have effected the rest of the snake market is making it's way into the Indigo as well... I have spoken with 2 breeders myself who have told me that they can't sell them for $1,000 but don't want to cut the price on others... Debeers is one clear example of supply and demand having nothing to do with a over priced product...

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue..

I would like to see somebody making the supply and demand argument list a pair on reptileauctions.com and let it fly.. I think the price would come in much closer to $1,500 a pair as I think the Indigo will always be a $750 snake..

epidemic

08-01-2006, 10:30 AM

Robert doesn't have simply one breeding pair of D. couperi, but rather 15.30 breeders within his current collection. He is not trying to sell teh same speciemns, but rather continues to place different specimens on the market at different intervals over a period of time.
You might want to educate yourself regarding the captive husbandry of D. couperi, as even at 1,100.00 - 1,500.00 each a breeder will be lucky to break even once an entire clutch has been sold given the care, time and investment required to produce the species and I do not know of anyone who has successfully worked with the species with nothing more than dollar signs in their eyes and I have been working with the genus for close to 30 years. Though I have given most everything I produce to various university and zoological entities.
It sounds to me as though you are suffering from "sour grapes" syndrome. If you cannot afford D. couperi, instead of letting the price act as an antagonist, perhaps you should change your method of thought and allow it to work as a motivator to work harder and save. I see the same negativity amongst those longing to have color morph Python regius and “designer” Morelia viridis. If you will not afford D. couperi, perhaps you should look into the acquisition of Pituophis lodingi, Lampropeltis g nigritus or Lampropeltis t gaigeae.
Personally, I find it in poor taste to condemn someone on their advertising regarding their price, especially when such is inline with current market values, and whine because they cannot or will not afford such.
If you know of another breeder offering red chinned D. couperi this year, other than Robert, I would like to know who they are. If you know of other breeders who say they will not drop their opening price, as to be fair to the other breeders, I’d suggest you negotiate with them under the table. The truth is, your logic is flawed, as most all breeders harbor a waiting list from year to year of individuals waiting to acquire the offspring they might produce. If the market was over pouring with D. couperi, then everyone would be offering such at a much lower price, but they are not and as my grandfather used to say; “The proof is in the pudding.”

Best regards,

Jeff

DesertHerper

08-02-2006, 04:28 AM

Excellent response Jeff and very telling of why the snakes wont' sell at the $1,100 mark... If you're telling me that the cost to keep them is higher then the return you get when selling the babies this would be the first snakes I've heard of where this is the case... Even at an every other year breeding of 6 eggs you're still talking $13,200-$18,000 in babies for a trio every other year.... That my friend is one costly snake to breed... It was never clear to me that Robert had that many nor that it was costing him $45,000 a year to maintain his collection... I'm not trying to debate with you, I understand snakes and the market very well and many year was the only breeder in the Country to produce a genus of snake... Even as such, there is still demand and market share to fight and clearly the overhead of caring for such a costly snake turns most people off... Thus the lack of people willing to take a loss like that yearly...

Thank you a million for your well spoken educated responses and I'm sorry if this came off like a debate.. It was just a shock to me to see them still for sale after Robert told me 3 months ago he wouldn't have anymore within a weeks time.. Maybe that in itself is a sign of the market and shows the need to pressure sell or create a fulse sense of demand.. I would say a snake is pretty mainstream when you can purchase it at will from one of any half dozen breeders...

epidemic

08-02-2006, 02:13 PM

Marcia,

I appreciate your kind words, though I believe you should spend some time researching the Drymarchon spp. forums, as it is apparent you know little regarding the captive husbandry of the species and the problems associated with such, such research would go especially far if you are giving serious consideration to the acquisition of a pair or trio. Also, if you know of a half dozen, or so, breeders producing red-chinned D. couperi, again, I would like to know who they are, as I find it unlikely you know of any breeders of the species that I don't.
Perhaps you should pose your thoughts in the Dry forum, as I am certain youwill find even more answers that I have left out on teh topic.
To answer your question, yes, Drys are incredibly expensive to maintain and produce and no breeders produce D. couperi on the regular basis you have indicated within your post, as many females re-absorb their eggs, produce infertile eggs or become egg bound and expire. many eggs are often lost during incubation, as the incubation periods are quite long. You must also address the cost in time and energy required to maintain such a collection, to speak nothing of the cost of enclosures (they require large enclosures), facilities (it takes a large facility to house large enclosures) and feed (Drys are unlike boids or other colubrids and feed 2-3 times weekly). Again, I ask you to research some of the forums to this regard and come back once you are better educated on the topic, or better yet, post your thoughts and beliefs on the Dry forums to this regard.
Anyhow, if D. couperi are as "mainstream" as you would have us believe, then I am certain you should have no problem finding what yoyu want, at a price you are willing to pay and I wish you well in your search and acquisition.
Anyhow, I believe enough bandwidth has been used on this topic and I have a large collection of D. couperi which I must attend to...

Best regards,

Jeff

DesertHerper

08-02-2006, 06:57 PM

Well put my friend and again I thank you for clearing up the lack of interest in them at the $1,100 price range.. Many keepers like to at least break even in this hobby and from what you say it's not possible to do with this snake.. Above I spoke of getting an average of 3 eggs per year and you're telling me that isn't possible? Again, now I know why supply has gone up and demand down to the point that there are no waiting lists any longer.. I remember speaking with Lloyd once about a friend he had, making note that even at that time selling these for $175 each the joy of keeping them was worth him not making as much profit as he did on other snakes.. Maybe he was just a far better breeder that he could make a profit selling at 80% less then you do...

epidemic

08-02-2006, 09:02 PM

I believe you need to review the posts, Marcia,

As I stated in an earlier post, I give most of what I produce away to a variety of zoological and educational institutions as well as a few breeders and hobbyist. Actually, I have given away all of the D. couperi I have produced over the past 20 years, as in gifts and donations, no $$, bling bling or little green pictures of presidents. Not about profit for me, I simply love Drys and spend a great deal of time, energy and money working with them and educating others in regards their plight and captive husbandry. I actually never break even and if I were operating as a busines, I would have folded and filed for bankruptcy years ago, as my monthly feed bill alone is enough to pay the motgage on a nice home and I even pay the shipping for donated specimens to arrive at their new homes. so read what has been posted and get you facts prior to making a simian minded accusation.
Would you like for me to break down what I invest into my Dry collection each year and what I recover from any sales I make? I maintain very accurate records of such, thank you degei, and would be happy to share such with you, as I believe you would be surprised at the cost associated with Dry husbandry. Also, if your friend, Lloyd?, sorry don't believe I know him, has a friend selling D. couperi for 175.00, why on earth are you whining about Robert's prices and not acquiring the desired animals from him? Though I doubt you'll expound upon this.
I am curious though. If you believe your "theory" of price and demand holds true, then why not quit complaining and await for the bottom of the D. couperi market to fall out; then buy them? Of course, you could always fall back on your friend's friend selling them to you for 175.00, but I suspect you will not wish to elaborate on this either.
In short, quit whining and pony up, acquire a group for 175.00 each or get a "poor mans" indigo, as I suggested before.
Actually, I would like to know what exactly is the point you are trying to make, as I believe you haven’t done a very good job of making one, other than to whine about not being in the financial bracket to acquire D. couperi. Sorry, Marcia, that's just how it appears to me.

Best regards,

Jeff

kmurphy

08-02-2006, 10:01 PM

Hey I've got a price list in my filing cabinet that sells Indigos for $2.00/ft. :) It's from the Thompson Zoo back in the late 60's. I did have a trio back then but never attempted to breed them. Actually I don't think I even knew what sex they were. Too bad, for me, that I didn't have a crystal ball. This has been a pretty interesting thread. Thanks, Jeff for some insight into the Indigo market.

Kevin

DesertHerper

08-03-2006, 02:41 AM

Jeff, not really sure what the point to your post was, I at no point addressed your motivation for keeping this snake... In fact I think that most breeders of them keep them for the correct reasons... Lloyd Lemke passed away years ago so I don't think I will be getting any animals from him or finding out just who he was talking about... If I were I think the price will have gone up..

If you'd been following this thread you would know my question and issue was just in purchasing a snake for $1,100 each and them not being able to sell... I can't see a valid reason that the price has gone up and I've yet to be given one...

Currently Cliff Miller, Forked-Toung and Robert Bruce have ads on Kingsnake (not what I would call the main way of selling this type of snake) and have all mosted mulitple posts...

Jeff, what you're telling me here holds ZERO weight! First breeders all have waiting lists then three breeders keep putting up posts on kingsnake without being able to sell them.. Then the snakes cost more to keep then can be made off them... Then the price is based on supply and demand but the supply seems to far exceed the demand...

Whatever, if this is how the Indigo people want to come off it's fine with me...

I say we can solve this right now by putting some of them up in the free market and seeing how much they sell for on reptileauctions.com, this would show what the demand is and set the market price but I doubt you or anybody else would do this as it'll show that the Indigo is a $700 snake end of story...

I'll await your justification of why your opinions of the market trump my facts as well as the reasoning behind why free market couldn't be figured out by an auction type format! Good luck with that!

kmurphy

08-03-2006, 07:05 AM

I say we can solve this right now by putting some of them up in the free market and seeing how much they sell for on reptileauctions.com, this would show what the demand is and set the market price but I doubt you or anybody else would do this as it'll show that the Indigo is a $700 snake end of story...

Marcia, this wouldn't really set the price unless you put animals up over severals months so that all that would be interested in Indigos became involved. I guess your point is that they are overpriced. When the current inventory starts to build up yearlings and 2 yr olds the price will fall and not before. Too much inventory would require adjustments regardless of any individual breeder's desire to keep prices stable. Evidently the current Indigo breeders can sell most, if not all, of their product each season so there is no incentive to lower prices. It is an expensive snake, especially in light of Jeff's posts indicating that recouping your investment is difficult, if not impossible. So heaven forbid that you actually purchase an animal just to have it and not for it's monetary value.

DesertHerper

08-03-2006, 09:02 AM

Marcia, this wouldn't really set the price unless you put animals up over severals months so that all that would be interested in Indigos became involved. I guess your point is that they are overpriced. When the current inventory starts to build up yearlings and 2 yr olds the price will fall and not before. Too much inventory would require adjustments regardless of any individual breeder's desire to keep prices stable. Evidently the current Indigo breeders can sell most, if not all, of their product each season so there is no incentive to lower prices. It is an expensive snake, especially in light of Jeff's posts indicating that recouping your investment is difficult, if not impossible. So heaven forbid that you actually purchase an animal just to have it and not for it's monetary value.

Well, this is incorrect to a point in that in a free market where you let people set a price you have a true value of an item, something is worth what another person is willing to pay for it... In some cases you can include a time frame i.e. being able to sell something for $5 in a week $10 if you try for two and $20 if you're willing to wait a month.. In this case, this is the first year that a $1,100 price has been set and the first year I've seen them needing to be sold on kingsnake instead of via word of mouth and waiting lists...

Jeff was clearly well off in stating you can't recoup the cost of keeping these snakes by breeding them and selling babies for $1,500 each... Baja rats are a tough snake to keep and sell for 10% of the price and you make money off them... I've worked with odd snakes and hard to breed snakes and have yet to breed one that can't cover the cost of care with breeding... In fact, it would be a HUGE stretch to say the snakes cost $200 each per year to maintain....

Either way, no breeder will advertise a price drop and nobody will anti-up and list one where the buyers can decide the value because the price this year has been taken to far and from the conversations I've had many hadve just lost respect for the breeders trying to milk the extra money out of the market... I do however understand why the other Drys are going up as many are just far less trouble to deal with...

kmurphy

08-03-2006, 10:31 AM

Well, this is incorrect to a point in that in a free market where you let people set a price you have a true value of an item, something is worth what another person is willing to pay for it... In some cases you can include a time frame i.e. being able to sell something for $5 in a week $10 if you try for two and $20 if you're willing to wait a month.. In this case, this is the first year that a $1,100 price has been set and the first year I've seen them needing to be sold on kingsnake instead of via word of mouth and waiting lists...

Here I do disagree with you. The people don't really set the price, supply and demand does. Of course you can argue that this trickles down to the people. In reality though it is the seller attempting get a return on their investment that sets the price based upon the available supply and his likelyhood of selling at that price. Like I said, if the inventory starts to build the price comes down. I don't know if indigos were more or less last year but the fact that they have to advertise doesn't necessarily mean demand is down. I, for one, don't like being on a waiting list for several years. So I wouldn't be in the market for any animal that required such. I am sure there are others like me that assumed Indigos had a long wait. Now that they can see that they are immediately available they may jump into the market.

epidemic

08-03-2006, 01:04 PM

No one is going to list D. couperi to an auction site for a few reasons:

First: D. couperi are an endangered species and require USF&W permits for interstate commerce and many folks are unfamiliar with the necessity of such permits or the documentation and paper work required to obtain such.

Second: Auction sites are notorious for scams and rip-offs, something individuals working with high-end specimens are quite leery of.

Third: Dry keepers are generally a cliquish group and prefer to work individually with those interested in acquiring offspring they produce. I know many breeders, self included, that are quite picky about who acquires available offspring from our collections and have turned away potential buyers.

Still, I ask why the price bothers you so much that you have to publicly gripe about it? It is becoming apparent to me that you are the only one harboring an issue to this regard, but I suppose this is due to the fact that you want an indigo, but do not wish to pay for it. Oh well, I want a Ferrari, but the 250K price tag leaves me wanting, but I am not openly complaining to the Ferrari dealers about their prices.

Also, I had to laugh at your statement regarding the cost of feeding Drys, as your lack of knowledge surrounding the captive husbandry of the genus truly shows through. You might find it interesting to know, all of my adult D. couperi consume an average of two large rats, two 10 week old quail and two small trout each week and they would eat more if I gave it to them. Also, these guys eat year round. Check Rodent Pro and a local fish dealer, then do the math. As I said before, educate yourself regarding the captive requirements of the species, as your knowledge is severely lacking, as these are not your typical colubrids.

Lloyd Lemke worked with a variety of snakes, back in the day, for the sheer love of doing so. He was also a very early proponent of locality data regarding domestic species. I knew Lloyd and I know that he often gave specimens away or drastically discounted them for friends and serious hobbyist. I also know that he required full market value for some of the animals he offered as well. Are you familiar with his “Calico” Cribos??

Anyhow, I figure you will simply continue whining about the price of something you want, but cannot or will not afford and after reading what you believe to be a stretch, regarding the cost of feeding a Dry, I really suggest you not acquire one, as I am afraid you will not be able to care for it appropriately…

Best regards,

Jeff

Rivets55

08-03-2006, 04:54 PM

I just now searched KS.com for Eastern Indigos.
Robert Bruce has no ads posted there today.
There is one ad for 06 babies for $1,000 each - black phase.
here is the link:
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=426151

Are (some) indigo breeders cliquish?
Maybe - after all, they do breed the most exclusive North American herp. So what? I don't have to like someone to business with him.

Is the price artificially inflated?
Maybe - Maybe not. Time will tell. If inventory piles up, prices will drop. If breeders doing it for profit go broke, supply will dry up, and prices will go up. Fact is, as with any high end product, e.g, Ferrari's, it is a niche market, there will always customers (fans) who will pay whatever it takes to get one.

Are they worth every penny?
Apparently so. Everybody who's ever owned one seems to think so. What with all the potential drawbacks, from price, feeding, housing, to cleaning up vast quantities of fragrant poo, they must be really amazing. Same goes for a Testa Rosa (except the poo).

Did I go to go out and picket the Ferrari dealer cause I can't afford $250K?
No, I got what I could afford, a Nissan 350Z. Was I happy? Yes, until the speeding tickets started to pile up. I came to the conclusion that I really didn't need a sports car. I sold the 350Z, and lost money. A Ferrari would likely have sold for more money then I paid.

So, what's the point?

You want a Ferrari - go get one. Can't afford it? Get a 350Z, or a Corvette, or work and save till you can. Or start a dealership - then you'll have all the Ferrari's you want. And bear in mind, to run that dealership, and make a profit, or even just a living, is going to be a LOT of HARD work. You will really have to LOVE Ferrari's to do it. And you will need to have a loyal, affluent, and enthusiastic customer base. Are Ferrai's overated, or worth every penny? Depends who you ask, doesn't it!

Now: substitute "Redthroat Eastern Indigo" for "Ferrari" in the paragraph above. That's the point.

Regards.

John D.

DesertHerper

08-03-2006, 05:47 PM

Third: Dry keepers are generally a cliquish group and prefer to work individually with those interested in acquiring offspring they produce. I know many breeders, self included, that are quite picky about who acquires available offspring from our collections and have turned away potential buyers.

BINGO!!! I think my friend you have made my points much better then I could have... The gripe I had was that I spoke with Robert about buying these snakes and he blew a lot of smoke up my arse and was just in general a rude human to deal with... Since then I've spoken with more then one other Eastern breeder and have found them to be great to deal with... It's also at that time I've had people offer the easterns to me more in the $850 range but telling me that they just don't wanna advertise a price drop and piss anybody in the clique off (my words not theres)...

Are (some) indigo breeders cliquish?
Maybe - after all, they do breed the most exclusive North American herp. So what? I don't have to like someone to business with him.

Are you talking just of Easterns or Indigos and a whole becuase while I'll agree the Indigo is a rare snake to find people breeding the Eastern has clear become the most common, I've never seen any other Dry. with three listings on eBay at the same time..

Also, I had to laugh at your statement regarding the cost of feeding Drys, as your lack of knowledge surrounding the captive husbandry of the genus truly shows through. You might find it interesting to know, all of my adult D. couperi consume an average of two large rats, two 10 week old quail and two small trout each week and they would eat more if I gave it to them. Also, these guys eat year round. Check Rodent Pro and a local fish dealer, then do the math. As I said before, educate yourself regarding the captive requirements of the species, as your knowledge is severely lacking, as these are not your typical colubrids.

This made me laugh!! 6 or 7 years ago I had 2.2 Woma that I fed tea cup poodles, I just couldn't figure out why I was even breaking even on that group... Still not really sure!! I guess before I spoke I should have been wise enough to ask what you were feeding your snakes, I have a ton of rattle snake running around here so I should be able to get the job done for next to nothing:) Just think I could sell mine for $100 each and I'd still be making money...

As a side note, for the same reasons I wouldn't have listed many of the snakes I had dealt with in the past on an auction site people won't do it with the Indigo... For me it was because it's a snake that takes the right buyer, the right buyer is often something that takes time... At $1,100 breeders will have to just spend far more time looking for the right buyer and to me not doing this for the money that's what makes me loose interest in them.. I would rather have a waiting list and know they were all gone and sold before they hatched... Just allows more focus on the collection and less on the selling of snakes...

BWSmith

08-04-2006, 05:02 PM

After reading this entire thread, if people like you lose interest in couperi because of the price, then I think they are priced perfect.

DesertHerper

08-04-2006, 05:31 PM

After reading this entire thread, if people like you lose interest in couperi because of the price, then I think they are priced perfect.

Agreed cause it would be much better if the people that were keeping them for the love of the snake and didn't care about weather or not they made money had them right? Much better to turn them into the next redtail boa or corn snake I think... Cause at $700 I don't think it's a snake worth the trouble of trying to make money off, just too much care involved but at $1,100-$1,500 each I bet they'll start giving it some thought, maybe even a few nifty morphs on the way at those kinda prices..

My motivation for keeping them is to work with a pure amazing animal that hasen't been watered down with greed and the BS politics the others have, to keep a snake that take work, love and care and breeding is a hit or miss shot that you shouldn't expect.. To keep a snake for once that's smarter then it's meals... But you're saying these are the types of people that shouldn't be working with them?

BWSmith

08-04-2006, 06:21 PM

cause it would be much better if the people that were keeping them for the love of the snake and didn't care about weather or not they made money
yes

My motivation for keeping them is to work with a pure amazing animal that hasen't been watered down with greed and the BS politics the others have, to keep a snake that take work, love and care and breeding is a hit or miss shot that you shouldn't expect.. To keep a snake for once that's smarter then it's meals...
No, you have demonstrated that you want a snake that you can breed and make a profit with but do not wish to spend money on breeding stock. YOU want to set the price, not pay the price set. If you think that the price should be lower, then pay the money to get breeding sock and sell the offspring at a fraction of the going rate. My guess is that yo would not do this as you seem to have no real interest in the species other than complaining about the price. There are plenty of other species to choose from, perhaps you should choose another.

DesertHerper

08-04-2006, 09:18 PM

No, you have demonstrated that you want a snake that you can breed and make a profit with but do not wish to spend money on breeding stock. YOU want to set the price, not pay the price set. If you think that the price should be lower, then pay the money to get breeding sock and sell the offspring at a fraction of the going rate. My guess is that yo would not do this as you seem to have no real interest in the species other than complaining about the price. There are plenty of other species to choose from, perhaps you should choose another.

Well I thank you for clearing up my motivation behind wanting this snake... Before your comment I felt like that Pied Balls, Womas, Coxi, Prasina and so on that I kept years ago were motivated by money alone... I felt like I stopped working with snakes because of the direction of the keepers to always be pushing for more money... I see now that I'm wrong for thinking this and I should maybe look into breeding something like ringneck snakes... Thank you for speaking for me and letting me know the motivation behind my purchase as I thought I was trying to stick up for people doing just want you mentioned above with the Drys...

Good lord, sorry for asking why the price has gone up and even more so that I got your undies all twisted without anybody giving one valid reason for a $300 price jump in one year! I call is suspect honestly but whatever, clearly the Eastern is kept by the same type of breeders it once was..

BWSmith

08-08-2006, 07:03 PM

Well I thank you for clearing up my motivation behind wanting this snake... Before your comment I felt like that Pied Balls, Womas, Coxi, Prasina and so on that I kept years ago were motivated by money alone... I felt like I stopped working with snakes because of the direction of the keepers to always be pushing for more money... I see now that I'm wrong for thinking this and I should maybe look into breeding something like ringneck snakes... Thank you for speaking for me and letting me know the motivation behind my purchase as I thought I was trying to stick up for people doing just want you mentioned above with the Drys.....

You're Welcome.

Archimedes Artifex

08-19-2006, 09:52 PM

Based on this statement you wouldn't think there were 4 breeders trying to sell them currently without any luck... Based on supply and demand not only will a price go up but down as well, something clearly none of them want to publicly do.. I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck..

I guess as sad as it is to say, the politics and greed that have effected the rest of the snake market is making it's way into the Indigo as well... I have spoken with 2 breeders myself who have told me that they can't sell them for $1,000 but don't want to cut the price on others... Debeers is one clear example of supply and demand having nothing to do with a over priced product...

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue..

I would like to see somebody making the supply and demand argument list a pair on reptileauctions.com and let it fly.. I think the price would come in much closer to $1,500 a pair as I think the Indigo will always be a $750 snake..

I don't get what everyone is contiuously debating. If I had a spare grand sitting around I would love to own an Indigo. I would rather spend $1100 on a fascinating and challenging snake rather then go and spend $15,000 on a $30 ball python that looks like it's been painted with finger nail polish. Maybe after I spend my life savings restoring my '69 Roadrunner, and taking care of my collection as is, I will try to get into breeding Indigos.

Cheers
-Richard

Post Scripture:
I could quote everyone and try my hardest to make points, but that would take up another 7 pages. :toiletcla
Nice debate, and well spoken on EVERYONE'S behalf. Although this was a classified add, and not a debate.

thesnakeman

09-10-2006, 11:52 PM

Robert Bruce posted a classified add which ignited a 7 page firestorm, involving a half dozen people,....but not one word from Robert. Why? I'm asking Robert,...not you.

And to Marcia,...We will sell our indigos for whatever price we want. If you don't like it, I'll give you a quarter so you can call somebody who gives a ****! If you can't afford indigos, get a job at the zoo, and one of us might donate some for free, and then you'll be able to work with them. Or sell your house, save your money, and buy some,....{ LIKE I DID!!!!} Then, and only then will you fully comprehend the value, and corresponding price of an indigo. Until then shut your pie hole and go play with garter snakes. Because until you acquire, raise, breed, sell, and loose a few indigos,....YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!! And you just annoy those of us who do.
T.
P.S. I'll sell you one for about ten grand.

DesertHerper

09-11-2006, 12:39 AM

We will sell our indigos for whatever price we want.

Correction, you will sell your snakes for whatever you're paid.. And clearly nobody is getting paid $1,000 for them.. Not one person as address why the snake use to have a 3 year waiting list and now nobody can sell them.. This my friend if you took business 101 is called supply and demand..

As for purchasing Indigos, I really don't like working with common snakes, the Eastern is WAY too common for me to want to deal with.. Even more so when you address the permit issues and having less of a market to sell to.. I went with a trio of Texas instead, much less common in captive collections..

Thank you however for assuming as much as you did, I found it to be a very entertaining break in my night.. Also, if you decide you want to work with a snake not as common and clouded in so much debate and drama let me know and I'll put you on my waiting list for Texas Indigos..

thesnakeman

09-11-2006, 01:49 AM

BWSmith

09-11-2006, 01:57 AM

Your an idiot.
That made me chuckle since I am watching House season 2 on DVD at this very moment and that is his favorite line :rofl:

Dennis Hultman

09-11-2006, 02:21 AM

Correction, you will sell your snakes for whatever you're paid.. And clearly nobody is getting paid $1,000 for them.. Not one person as address why the snake use to have a 3 year waiting list and now nobody can sell them.. This my friend if you took business 101 is called supply and demand..

As for purchasing Indigos, I really don't like working with common snakes, the Eastern is WAY too common for me to want to deal with.. Even more so when you address the permit issues and having less of a market to sell to.. I went with a trio of Texas instead, much less common in captive collections..

Thank you however for assuming as much as you did, I found it to be a very entertaining break in my night.. Also, if you decide you want to work with a snake not as common and clouded in so much debate and drama let me know and I'll put you on my waiting list for Texas Indigos..

I’m just curious,

How did you come to the conclusion that none were selling? It’s a general ad about a clutch. This ad and others make no mention of a single snake being sold. Just because you see the same picture or the same ad doesn’t conclude that nothing has been sold.

I have 2006 season Eastern Indigo hatchlings available now. Most are the red-throat form as all of my parents are red-throats.

I am beginning to release 2006 hatchlings. Males and pairs are available, $1,100 each. I also have a small number of yearling pairs (inquire if interested).

How can these quotes above be claimed as supporting evidence to your statements below?

I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck.

Do you produce a huge number of these every year or is this just a snake that's very hard to sell as I've seen you listing them for months now.

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue.

Well your answer is right in the Ad.
For the last two years, I have been the top producing breeder in the world, with the largest breeding colony of Eastern Indigos anywhere.

I think you’re a little upset that nobody wanted your ring.

Willing to trade 1.5+ carat Diamond solitaire for Eastern Indigos...

That's about what it comes down to.. This is a brand new ring from a store buyout.. I can't afford to marry any more women (come to think of it, even if I could I'd rather have a pair of indigos) so I won't be putting this ring to use.. It is over 1.5 carats, 18k white gold setting and would cost you $5,000 at the very least if you were to try buying it from any store. I'm open to any and all trade offers.. I would be more then happy to send pictures..

Give me a call at (520) 609-three-nine-seven-nine...

Kaa needs a wife

09-11-2006, 02:28 AM

To add insult to injury............

I for one have wanted a pair of easterns for years. Finding anyone having them for sale though has been a pain and yes they are expensive. So for the last few months I have been putting away the nickels and dimes. Not buying that next pack of cigarettes. Buying some nice big cages, heating, lighting. And preparing to buy said eastern indigos. I am gettin 1.0 Black tailed cribo and still trying to find him a female......(anyone know of a breedable female for sale) So there is a demand for this snake. I for one will take my time and make sure that I will have my beauty's around to enjoy for years. Money means nothing to me as compared to working with these snakes. I fell in love with the genus after seeing my first black tail and after that it was over.............

DesertHerper

09-11-2006, 05:36 AM

Your an idiot. I could sell indigos all day long for a grand a pop. Folks are pestering me all the time, which is why I don't advertise anymore, and I don't maintain a waiting list. And there is still a waiting list for most breeders, some maybe longer than three years. You have no clue what you are talking about. Your just running your yapper. And we're just laughing at you. So how bout you either shut up, or get some couperi, and raise them, and breed them, and have some die, or lay infertile eggs, so you will know what you are talking about. Keep your Texans.

Well, I have also told people that I win the conversation when I can get the other person to degrade their ration to the point of calling names.. I state this only as a general rule as conversations are clearly not games to be won, just viewpoints compaired..

I’m just curious,

How did you come to the conclusion that none were selling? It’s a general ad about a clutch. This ad and others make no mention of a single snake being sold. Just because you see the same picture or the same ad doesn’t conclude that nothing has been sold.

Not to be rude but if you're both too lazy to read the whole thread I have zero interest in doing it for you..

I could sell indigos all day long for a grand a pop.

Well you may be a better sales person then the other four people advertising Easterns for sale.. Can you please tell me how you sell them? It can't be advertising or a website as all the other people that have been trying to sell theirs for months have them.. It can't be word of mouth either as Robert is more know then yourself for working with this snake.. Maybe you just excell in sales?

Wilomn

09-11-2006, 09:45 AM

Well, I have also told people that I win the conversation when I can get the other person to degrade their ration to the point of calling names.. I state this only as a general rule as conversations are clearly not games to be won, just viewpoints compaired..

Not to be rude but if you're both too lazy to read the whole thread I have zero interest in doing it for you..

Well you may be a better sales person then the other four people advertising Easterns for sale.. Can you please tell me how you sell them? It can't be advertising or a website as all the other people that have been trying to sell theirs for months have them.. It can't be word of mouth either as Robert is more know then yourself for working with this snake.. Maybe you just excell in sales?

Let's look at this another way.

Who has them for sale? I know one guy in Pa. who produced Tx/Eastern hybrids and sold them as pure. Maybe you're dealing with him.

Who are you dealing with that has so many left over. Maybe it's the seller.

BWSmith

09-11-2006, 09:52 AM

This person just seems to think that if there are some for sale, then they must be overpriced. And of course, they must not sell for the going rate if the largest producer of couperi in the country actually has some in stock. :eek:

thesnakeman

09-11-2006, 12:11 PM

Hey Wes,...is that one of mine? Looks very good!

As for calling Marcia an idiot,...well,...I call'em like I see'em. And I do not resort to name calling very often. In fact this is a first. Anyone who reads this thread can, and probably would draw the same conclusion. And none of us are trying to win a debate or emerge victorious from this mess. Were just trying to get through that thick skull of yours! But now I don't think that's possible. I think your mind is made up. The only way it will ever change is for you to jump through the same hoops that I have, and experience what I have ,as far as acquiring, raising, breeding, hatching, starting, selling, and loosing couperi. You just won't get it unless you walk a mile in my moccasins. But you won't do that, because,...once again,...you are too stubborn. You'd rather bitch about it endlessly. You want to stir up a big stink, and continue to plink away at your computer for hours and hours, and page after page of incorrect rationalizations, and flawed logic,... and argue with those who HAVE walked mile after mile in those moccasins. So yes,...you are an idiot. And I'd be willing to bet that I know why you have a diamond ring that you want to trade for couperi. I'd bet that your former future husband flew the coop because he got sick and tired of your ignorance and stubbornness, and your know it all attitude. In fact he was so sick of it, that he didn't even want the ring back did he. As for couperi, I'm glad you don't have any. The species does not need people like you. It needs dedicated breeders who are willing to LEARN. It is unfortunate that you even got into Texans. Somebody like you would be better off with morphmutts. I don't know which is worse, your ignorance, or your arrogance. When someone who knows nothing about a subject argues endlessly with those who do, and they refuse to get some couperi, and figure out what we are trying to tell them,and they go on and on for page after page...then yes,... that person qualifies for the status of IDIOT! And quite possibly a few other choice names. So do us all a BIG favor,...DON"T EVER get couperi! As for your diamond ring, I think you know what I'm thinking you should do with that. And now that I think about it, maybe I'll raise my prices to $2000 each for neonate couperi, just to make sure I keep you out of them. Now do us all a favor and go free handle a Mamba or something. As for me, I'm done with this. There is no point in talking to someone who already knows it all. Adios.
T.
T.

Kaa needs a wife

09-11-2006, 03:12 PM

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

BWSmith

09-11-2006, 03:24 PM

Now if we could just get Tony to stop being so shy and reserved. ;)

DesertHerper

09-11-2006, 07:51 PM

Well, at least this gives some insite into the mind of the Eastern keeper.. Here's what started this whole thread:

Do you produce a huge number of these every year or is this just a snake that's very hard to sell as I've seen you listing them for months now.. I'm asking because while I'm very interested in getting a trio of them I don't wanna deal with a snake that can't be sold.. Also, what is the reason for such a raise in price as I would guess that it's not demand due to you having to place so many ads to sell them.. I'm not being rude here so please don't take it that way, I'm honestly interested but just don't have the time to post ad after ad to sell a snake that doesn't produce large numbers of eggs as it is..

Seems like these are all valid points and questions.. There are currently four people trying to sell easterns on kingsnake.. Some, like Cliff Miller only had 5 or 6 animals and are still posting ads.. These same people have been posting for months now, in some cases 4 months!

I think the response I've gotten to these questions from somebody new to Drys is paramount to my points mentioned later.. You can't answer why the price has gone up, you deny that the snakes don't sell despite the same people trying over and over again to sell them..

Honestly, I now understand why Doug isn't going to work with them anymore and why the snakes don't sell.. There's a reason that people get this deffensive about something, if I didn't have valid points you would be content just ignoring them..

You have my word, I WILL NEVER WORK WITH EASTERNS!!!

thesnakeman

09-12-2006, 02:55 AM

We did answer why the price has gone up. You're just too stubborn, or stupid to let it sink in. Either that or you aren't paying attention.

Don't try and judge how well they sell by watching the classifieds. That's not an accurate method.They sell just fine. But you'll never know, because you won't try it. Although you did want to try it when you posted an add wanting to trade a diamond ring for couperi. Now you are just bent out of shape because nobody would trade with you. And even if they don't sell fast, I don't mind. I'm content to keep every couperi I produce. I don't breed them to make money. I breed them because I love them. Although, like I keep telling you,...I have folks pestering me for couperi all the time. You seem to be overtly preoccupied with selling them, and making money. We told you,...couperi isn't a good species to raise for profit. The overhead is too high, and propagating this species is very problematic, especially when a female dies from egg binding. You say you'll never work with easterns,...GOOD!!! I'll remember you said that. You'll NEVER BUY ANY FROM ME!!! Now go play with your diamond ring and stick your head down a rattlesnake burrow!

It is unfortunate that someone as thick headed as yourself has acquired any drymarchon at all. You should stick to garter snakes, or something extremely deadly, and aggressive. We could only hope to be that lucky. Of all the people posting on this thread YOU are the only one who is wrong. For whatever reason you just don't see it. And YOU are the only one who doesn't see it. Or maybe you do but you're just in denial. You remind me of the guy who posted a pic of himself free handling a cottonmouth with his bare hands, and asking, "is this a good idea"? Then when everyone told him what a stupid thing to do that was,...and gave him numerous reasons why it was a stupid thing to do, he got all bent out of shape, and wanted to argue with everyone. He was the only one who didn't get it after several pages of testimony from people who know. JUST LIKE YOU! You should get together with him. I think you two would make a great couple. Maybe you could free handle venomous snakes together, and kill two idiots with one snake. Bye,
T.

DesertHerper

09-12-2006, 04:37 AM

Well T, somebody is going to have to use their brain and point out that this is all a moot point.. I have purchased Texas as I'm not really into any snake that has 4 breeder at a time trying to sell them.. I don't want to make money, I just don't want to advertise the same snake over and over again.. You're clearly unable to understand this but even so I'll accepts that it is myself who is the thick headed one..

I'll just assume you're no longer reading as you're clearly more interested in making your point then understanding anothers.. I have texasindigos.com and will use it to further the hobby and help others.. Not sure what you have done to help people in this hobby..

It has also been made painfully clear why it is myself who is wrong.. In this thread alone we have one breeder trying to sell a snake and now two others saying they just give them away.. It is very hard to price match free.. This is clearly the reason why the snakes won't sell for money and the reason for the price going up by the people who are trying to make money with them..

I will call this issue closed as I would have to start naming the people I've talked to working with and trying to sell these snakes to back up any further points.. I will consider your shear amount of time spent talking about this enough justification for my assumption that my points are valid...

thesnakeman

09-12-2006, 02:01 PM

Well Marcia,
I don't know why these guys advertise over and over again. It's really not necessary. If you have great animals and a good reputation, the animals will sell themselves. I know you don't understand this, but a few years down the road, you will. If you have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it like Robert has.

You are in for a big surprise, and some serious disappointment. Texas indigos are just as precarious and expensive to produce and sell as easterns. It's basically the same snake. You are going to have all the same problems and heartbreaks as me. They will eat you out of house and home. They will take up a lot of space. They will require a lot of maintenance, and work EVERY DAY. Females will, after months and months of waiting, either die from egg binding, or give you a bunch of slugs, if they lay anything at all. You will have difficulty finding, unrelated animals to maintain genetic diversity in your collection. You will wait 4 years, at least for them to be big enough to breed. You'll throw away tons of dead pinkies, and fish trying to get the babies to start feeding,...if you get any babies at all,...if you can even get the adults to breed at all. You'll spend an enormous amount of money on your feed bill. You'll pull your hair out trying to diversify their diet. You'll have gobs of people pestering you for babies. Your competitors will be charging more money than you,...and getting it. You won't make a profit, and you'll be lucky to break even. The only real difference that you will experience is the Federal and local permits associated with couperi. You won't have all the problems and expense caused by that. But you will run into idiots who think they know it all, even though they don't. And they will argue, and argue, and argue,....

Yes some of us do occasionally give some away. We may as well, because we don't really make any profit anyway. Personally I have not yet given any away, but I have two zoos, and one private individual waiting for a baby from me this year or next, with more to follow. The Atlanta Zoo, Bush Gardens, in Tampa, and B.W. Smith who will get his female this year. I am also working on an artificial insemination project in order to help diversify the captive gene pool. If we did not give them away, many places would not have them. So when I give away some, I have to charge more for the rest of them so I can recover that loss. And I am donating $200 each from the sale of every baby to Indigos Forever so we can pay for things like the genetic survey currently being done by Matt Rand, and we can build a better website, and we can educate folks, donate more animals to more zoos, and we can go into the field and do wild surveys, studies, and help the Nature Conservancy purchase land for habitat. These are the things that I have been working on, not to mention the trips to local schools this year, and answering countless questions from folks. Oh and the artwork I am creating and donating to make T-shirts for sale, the proceeds for which to put back into the organization Indigos Forever, for all of the above. I also belong to The Gopher Tortoise Council, and I donate to the Nature Conservancy. I am constantly looking for ways to help this species, and to help others working with this species.

Your points are totally invalid. You have no clue what you are doing or what you are talking about. You have absolutely no experience with this species. And yet you come here where you are surrounded by folks who do have that experience and knowledge, make an ass of yourself, and refuse to listen to those who DO know what they are talking about. But I have taken the time to try and educate you, even though it seems to go in one ear, and right out the other side, because you already know it all. That's OK. though, because working with Texans you will learn that everything I have told you is true. Wether or not you ever accept it, or admit it to yourself,...is another story. But the market price for Texans and the associated expenses, are in line with, and heading in the same direction as couperi. The longer I work with this species, the more I'm thinking $2000 for a hatchling would actually be a fair price, and the same for Texans. And I am confident that if we all bumped it up to that, we would still be able to sell our babies. And we still wouldn't be getting rich. Hell,...Robert has had his utilities cut off because he couldn't pay the bill! If you disagree that's fine. With time, you will hopefully learn. If you do learn, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, I won't loose any sleep over it because you'll still be an idiot. My shear amount of time spent on this is not because your points are valid,...it's because they are totally invalid, and I don't want others to be as ignorant as you.
T.

Rivets55

09-12-2006, 03:11 PM

As entertaining as this thread is... :2hammers: ...its starting to remind me of a '50s romantic comedy. :rotflmao:

Maybe you two need to get together for drinks or something! :beer:

:dgrin: LOL - JUST KIDDING!!! :dgrin:

Actually, I'd like to make the following requests:

Marcia - Please post pics of your new Texans - show us what you got! :)

Tony - Nazza posted a beautiful pic of a :smokin: HUGE male Eastern on the Indigo/Dry Forum. How about it, got one that size? ;)

:IThankYou Peace!

John D

thesnakeman

09-12-2006, 04:54 PM

O.k., I think there is a pic of Mongo on there somewhere, and he is even bigger now. But I'll put one up for ya.

And I'd like to make the following {{{FINAL}}} note; from me at least. LoL

I can remember when I had the same opinion as Marcia,...and expressing it,...and getting flamed for it,...and being called a few names for it too. It's been a couple years. But at one time I did have the same ideas. My opinion has obviously been changed. It was changed by experience and time. I'd be willing to bet that after she has done the dry thing for a couple years, her opinion will change, and she will be flaming somebody else for expressing the same opinion. It may just become a right of passage for the more stubborn of us. And I fully admit being both stubborn and ornery. And I would expect anyone to charge whatever price they see fit for the animals they produce. The people who {{do}} or {{don't}} buy them will decide if they, or we, or me get that price. And like I said before. If mine don't sell, I'll be happy to keep them. No matter how much it costs, because I love them. Period.
T.

Hector

09-14-2006, 02:55 AM

Gimme a break! It's all about the money. Face it people! I'll bid $100.00!!

DesertHerper

09-18-2006, 05:47 AM

While I thank you all for the "help" and information I would call myself fairly educated on snakes.. I would say when it comes to snakes I'm at 50% and while there is a lot of room for growth having kept 500 snakes at a time and working with 20+ different types at a time all with different needs I welcome a challange..

In fact, the smallest of the Texans I purched was only interested in eating a snake.. Granted it was early on to have any real worry I enjoy the fact that one of the three wanted to be picky.. I tossed a baby corn in there just yesterday and sure as can be she jumped all over it! I sort of pinched off the section of the corn snake the TX had grabbed and as she was working her way to the head of the corn swapped a pinky in its place.. She ate that one without issue and took the next without thought or the help of the corn snake!

Anyway, I understand what you're saying and in this market I think the Drys should be $10,000, hell if a ball is worth that the dry should get 10x that!! However putting my value on a snake doesn't sell it.. You can't spend hours telling me the woas of a snake then try to justify a higher price! That's like telling me how costly your Yugo is to keep running and then telling me that's why you're asking a lot for it! This is, has and will always be the snake that money motivated people just don't want to deal with!

Anyway, that's that, those are my views and it's not gonna change anytime soon.. I'll work with the snakes, thank those of you trying to help and let those of you that just wanna fight wake up as yourself as there's little I can wish on you that would be worse:)

DesertHerper

09-18-2006, 05:49 AM

As a side note, I know corn snakes, even adults are worthless in this market!

http://4adam.com/indigoeating.jpg
http://4adam.com/indigoeating2.jpg
http://4adam.com/indigoeating3.jpg

Reverendbeer

09-20-2006, 07:39 PM

Ok...I've read this thread and I really can't take this self-absorbed crap any more. DesertHerper, you really need to get over yourself. If you disagree with what others tell you, then ignore it. If you don't want to pay the prices offered, then don't buy one. If you really want one, then you will. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. Not my call. But, as this is the way things are, you're gonna have to accept it.

Since, as you said, your issue is, "purchasing a snake for $1,100 each and them not being able to sell," clearly, your intent is not care and breeding of an endangered species, nor would it be enjoyment of an exotic pet...no, clearly you want to make some money.

If you want to make money, as you seem to want to, I really wouldn't alienate the community you're trying to merge with....you're going to get a bad reputation and nobody'll buy from you anyway.

Oh, and when you post pictures, you should make sure that the copyright doesn't go to a dead web address. It's one of those little things that make selling whatever you wind up selling a little harder.

That was just a bit of advise...here's some more:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y173/reverendbeer/suck-1.jpg

DesertHerper

09-20-2006, 08:54 PM

Since, as you said, your issue is, "purchasing a snake for $1,100 each and them not being able to sell," clearly, your intent is not care and breeding of an endangered species, nor would it be enjoyment of an exotic pet...no, clearly you want to make some money.

Of course the other line of thought would be that since I don't care about selling them or making money on them I just want a snake that will sell itself quickly so I don't have to mess around trying to sell a damn snake.. Not being in the snake business spending 3 months selling one to "maximize profit" IS NOT my idea of a good time..

If you want to make money, as you seem to want to, I really wouldn't alienate the community you're trying to merge with....you're going to get a bad reputation and nobody'll buy from you anyway.

Not like anybody is buying from anybody as it sits my friend.. Hell, there is yet another person trying to sell Easterns on kingsnake now.. That's four different people in two months!

Oh, and when you post pictures, you should make sure that the copyright doesn't go to a dead web address. It's one of those little things that make selling whatever you wind up selling a little harder.

I didn't say go to the website, I didn't say to check the website and I'm not using it to sell snakes! The website is an entity, one that owns the pictures, thus the copyright stating this.. It is not an advetisement for business..

thesnakeman

09-21-2006, 01:21 PM

Some folks just have to have the last word no matter what. Just let her have it. She's not going to understand what she's being told anyway. Her skull is simply too thick.
T.

beaverfalls

11-14-2006, 02:12 AM

There is always a species with herpers that holds us in awe for lack of a better word. A few weeks ago I had the pleasure or the privalige to visit
Robert Bruce where he does his work. I purchased 2 Red throated easterns.
A male and a female. To say that this guy doesnt Love what he does is
a understatement. For 3 hours I was lead on a tour of his facility/home.
It took him 2 hours to decide if he could part with 1 of 2 males that hes
fond of.It was like sitting in a biology class. One that youd love. He wanted
to make sure his Indigos where going to have the best care possible. I told
him that id like to breed them in the future. His answer was that theres not
enough Indigo breeders in the world. Unless youve never had the honor to
hold a 6 to 7 foot indigo and admired there beauty, intelligence,strength,
and at the same time gentleness you cant understand. They to me are
one of the 7 wonders of the reptile world. Yes they were not cheap and
im not going to say how much I payed. If there where alot of them out there
the price would be lower also. Dont forget they are an endangered species.
I know im a little over the top but hey We are talking about Eastern Indigos.
Hats off to people like Robert Bruce. I hope he gets rich! He deserves it!
Seth Smith Beaverfalls on this site.

greg4000

11-15-2006, 03:11 PM

marcia, your right. four whole people are selling indigos on kingsnake. the markets flooded, the price should drop any day now. i have to ask, are you completely retarded? it seems that way. do you understand that these are endangered? let me explain, it means that there are not alot of these left. given this, how could supply possibly be more than demand. have you not understood that these breeders are not doing this for monetary gain, as you seem to be. anyhow, i hope you and your 500 snakes are happy. the way i see it is im sorry to here you got into the drys. you shouldve stayed away and made money elsewhere. before you ask, no i do not keep these. however if i did, i would be more than willing to donate them to zoos or universities or possible to help repopulate the indigos in florida. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
thats the wrong reason to want to deal with any drys, unfortunately you will realize this way to late i am sure.