Rocky Seems Sick

[A.J.]

Hello,

Rocky (my 12" Rosy Boa) & I could really use some help!

I got him for Christmas, and he was very healthy & active! I have him in a 5.5 gallon aquarium with an under tank heat mat, and a heat lamp with a 75 watt bulb. For substrate, the person at Petco (who sold me the snake) recommended I use Zoo Med Eco Earth Compressed Coconut Fiber Expandable Substrate, he said that is what they lived on in the store, so I bought it.
I put Rocky in his new home & let him settle in for 2 days before trying to feed him a thawed out frozen pinkie. He didn't eat it, so I waited another day. It has been over a week, & he STILL hasn't eaten, and he doesn't look good at all! He looks skinny, he will not eat, & is very lethargic. I noticed a couple days ago that he has mites, so I took out all of the bedding, and replaced it with paper towels, and bought a mite spray from the local pet store called 'Natural Chemistry De Flea Reptile Relief: Kills Mites on Contact', and it seemed to help. I had to use it twice. I haven't seen any mites on him today.

But he still won't eat, I even bought a live pinkie mouse. He is not even interested!

3 days ago, I saw a few small bubbles coming from his mouth, but haven't seen them since.

Please help us! I don't want him to die :(

[Cat_72]

AJ, do you have any idea of the temps in that enclosure?? It has got to be REALLY hot in a 5 gallon with a 75 watt lamp and a UTH besides!! Do you have any kind of thermostat?

[AncientDNA]

Hey AJ,
Check out the link for appropriate substrates http://www.rosyboa.com/substrate.htm
You definitely need to get an accurate measurement of the 'hot spot' over where the UTH is located. An infrared temp gun isn't that expensive. Try to aim for a temp gradient of low to mid 70's on the cool side, with the hot spot 90-95.
Give him a place or two to hide.
Try feeding him a paper bag, or when he seems most active.
Ditch the lamp!
Also, pick him up & rub beneath his jaw if more bubbles come out take him to a vet immediately. Do not allow your vet to give him the anti-biotic Baytrol. It is harmful to rosies. Flagyl is the way to go.
Good luck!

[Cat_72]

Try feeding him a paper bag, or when he seems most active.

Heh, may want to note that you could try feeding him IN a paper bag, don't expect him to eat the bag. ;)

He's not going to eat unless his environment is a healthy one, you need to get that right first and foremost....then work on the feeding.

Have you checked the temps? Is he doing any better today?

[aliceinwl]

One more thing: mite sprays can be pretty toxic to young snakes and you don't want to spray the animal or the enclosure while the animal is in it. If he's been reintroduced into a fumigated tank, you should wash out the tank to remove potentially harmful pesticide residue. I wouldn't use any more mite spray, just rinse of the snake and wash the cage and all the furnishings every other day. This will break the life cycle of the mites and you should be able to eliminate them within two to three weeks. Since the snake is so weak, it probably won't be able to tolerate the pesticide.

The lethergy is pretty worrisome.

I agree that the tank is probably baking. If heating a 5.5 gallon with a light only, you shouldn't need to go over 40 watts. If you have a UTH, you don't need the light, but many UTH's tend to get pretty hot (over 100) so it's important to monitor temps. If the UTH is over 95, you'll want to get a rheostat which will enable you to regulate the power to your UTH and thereby reduce the temp. The UTH should only cover about 1/4-1/3 of the tank bottom.

Make sure your snake has access to water. You can try holding the snake over the water and letting him flick his tongue in the bowl to encourage him to drink. The time he spent in such a hot tank may have left him dehydrated which would explain the lethargy.

As long as he appears weak and lethargic he's not going to eat. The bubbles could be indicative of a respiratory infection which would require treatment so follow AncientDNA's advice.

Aspen shavings make a great substate. Eco-earth is going to make the tank too humid when wet and too dusty when dry. You can also get a big bag of shavings relatively cheap so that you can change them out until you get the mite situation under control.

Until he seems perkier, he's not going to eat. Give him another week to recover before you try feeding. Snakes aren't like mammals, they can go for long stretches between feedings. The transfer to a new environment can take a couple of weeks to adjust to before the snake's ready to eat. With the excessive temps, and mite spray it'll likely take him some time to recover before he's strong enough to eat.

-Alice

[A.J.]

Thank you for the replies!

Good news.. when I rubbed under his jaw, no bubbles came out!

I will have to buy some kind of thermometer for his cage, but it doesn't seem hot in there. I have the heat on one side of the tank, and a cool side for him too, with hiding spots. I haven't seen any mites in 2 days, so that is good!

I will try to feed him in a paper bag, I hope it works!

Do you recommend I buy him a 10 gallon aquarium? I am so upset! I feel like I have made a bad home for him, even though the guy at Petco who sold me the snake, took me around the store, telling me what I would need for him. I thought he was going to get a great home! :(
I really love him, and want to make his home as nice as possible! Should I buy him a 10 gallon tank?

Thank you again for the help! we really, truly appreciate it!

[Cat_72]

While John can give you more specific advice on Rosies, I can tell you some general ideas....

What doesn't seem "hot" to you may be VERY warm for the snake. There is really no way you can provide a good temperature gradient in something as small as a 5 gallon, and I have 75 watt bulbs over some of my Beardies in LARGER tanks, and the "hot spot" under them is well over 100 degrees. I would think a somewhat larger tank is a must....again, John can tell you just how much larger would be sufficient better than I can, as I am not experienced with Rosies.

Also.....not all, but the vast majority of employees at places like Petco have NO IDEA the proper care requirements for most of the herps they sell. Online care sheets and forums such as this are a MUCH better source of accurate information....and I can't stress enough to make certain you have everything set up properly BEFORE you buy your new herp, if at all possible.

[AncientDNA]

I totally agree with Kat.
-Chain pet store guys have only very generalized knowledge about the herps they sell(and that's being generous).
-Although I keep my newbies in small bins until I sell them or decide to keep them, 5 gallon glass tanks are not very ideal. 10 gal is much better. If your rosy is a coastal, you might have to upgrade to an 20 gal eventually as those guys can get to be nearly 4 ft.
-Read thru some of the good rosy boas websites. Mine has links to all the good ones I know of, but I don't have any specific husbandry info on it. Why reinvent the wheel when others have done it better than I could? www.localityrosies.com is the best site out there.
-If your rosy eats the bag you may have problems. :laugh:
-Try www.tempgun.com
-Post some pics too

[A.J.]

I got him a 10 gallon tank, have the UTH on only about a 1/4 of it, and have kept the heat lamp off. I rinsed him off with water, to remove any left over mite spray. And I held him over his water bowl, and I think when he flicked his tongue, he got some water. I also added more hiding places for him.

I have not seen any mites on him for 3 days now.

When should I try to feed him again? And hopefully he will eat the pinkie... not the bag! :rotflmao:

Anyway, yes, he is a Coastal Rosy. I will buy him a larger aquarium when he gets bigger!

Here is a picture of him:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h247/OscarloverAJ/Snake/rosyboa.jpg

Is there anything else that I can do for him? I still need to buy aspen bedding & a thermometer for the cage. I will try to get to the pet store today. For now, I just have the paper towels as bedding.

[Cat_72]

Is he acting more lively since you lowered the temps?

I would stay with the paper towel bedding for now, those mites can sometimes a bugger to get rid of, and you're better off being able to clearly see if more should return.

I'd give him a good week left alone as much as possible before trying to feed again....reduce his stress levels and he may be more likely to eat as well. You REALLY need to get a thermometer or temp gun to see what his actual temps are, you don't want it too cool either, or he will not digest properly if he does eat....do you have the UTH on any kind of thermostat or rheostat?

[A.J.]

Good news! He seems more active since I lowered the temps, and moved him into the 10 gallon. He is even crawling up the plant that I put in there for him! :D

I bought a thermometer, and the heated side is about 85 degrees Fahrenheit. Is that an OK temp?

And no, I don't have the UTH on any kind of thermostat or rheostat.

I will be going to the pet store tomorrow, and I will buy a bag of aspen bedding, but I won't put it in there yet, I'll stay with the paper towels.

[Cat_72]

From what I have read on some quick caresheets (remember, I am NOT an experienced Rosy owner, but there seems to be some really good info available) an 85 degree "hot spot" should be about right, BUT....where exactly did you measure the temp? The hot spot temp needs to be taken not in the air or on the side of his tank, but directly on the spot where your snake will be laying on the floor. If you are not using any kind of control on your UTH, many of them can reach temps themselves of over 100 degrees. A UTH should ALWAYS be used on a thermostat or rheostat.

It sounds like you are making good progress if he's becoming more active.....that's great to hear. Now you just need to make sure his UTH is properly controlled, and you should have most of your trouble licked. I'd be willing to bet you won't have any trouble getting him to eat then! :)

[A.J.]

The temp on the ground is 91.3 on the 'hot spot'. (I bought a digital thermometer at Petsmart).
When I put the aspen bedding in, won't it be cooler than that? Because right now I just have 1 layer of paper towels down.

He is more active. He's crawling around, and climbing. And he doesn't look as skinny as before, even though I have not fed him yet. When should I try to feed him? I was thinking Tuesday?

[Cat_72]

Usually, they smoosh themselves around in the aspen bedding, and will end up laying right on the floor of the tank anyway. 91.3 is still somewhat high for a Rosy I believe, it should be mid-80s. Did you put your UTH on some sort of control?

I would guess he looks less skinny because he was dehydrated from the heat, hopefully he has been drinking plenty of water and getting back to normal.

[A.J.]

GREAT NEWS!!

He is eating right now as I type this! :D

I thawed out a pinkie, wiggeled it around, abd he attacked it! I'm so happy!

[A.J.]

I forgot to say that he is also drinking quite a bit of water, and he looks healthy again! He is getting more & more active as the days go on. I think he is going to be OK!

I also haven't seen any mites at all. So do you think it would be OK to put the aspen bedding in there soon? The paper towels aren't very attractive! Lol.

[Cat_72]

Great to hear he's doing so well.....and EATING!!!!! :)

[A.J.]

Thank you! You have helped us a lot! :D

[aliceinwl]

90 is not too hot for a rosy and is actually on the low end, anywhere between 90 - 95 is fine for the hot side. I would do a few more tank cleanings / wait a couple more weeks before you put in the aspen. If his mites did manage to reproduce the nymphs would be too tiny to see right now and you want to make sure they're really gone before you add the apsen since that will make the frequent cage cleanings more complicated and increase the chances of an infestation going undetected.

If the mites do recur, I've had good luck using vegtable oil in conjunction with cage cleanings. What you do is put some on a cloth or paper towel and coat / rub it on the animal, it's best not to do the head to prevent it from getting in the nose etc. This will smother any mites under the scales. I would only do this in your case if you actually see more mites.

The skinny appearence may have been due to dehydration brought on by the high temperatures. I'm glad to hear that he's eating and drinking for you now.

I was at our local Petsmart last week. They have those interconnected banks of caging. The ball pythons they had in were crawling with mites and I could see them under most of the scales. These guys are probably the source of the mites in cb stock like your rosy.

-Alice

[Cat_72]

Thanks for your input Alice....as I said, I am by no means a rosy expert, I was just going from the online caresheets I found, which on average gave a hot spot temp of about 85.....but not all online caresheets are accurate, I'm glad someone with more knowledge than I corrected me. :)

[aliceinwl]

Jerry Hartley put together a website which has a great caresheet for rosys: http://www.localityrosys.com/husbandry_propogation.php . With a few minor deviations, I've had good results following his guidelines with my rosys. I've heard some anectdotal reports of increased risk of respiratory problems with pine shavings so I prefer to play it safe and use aspen. I also tend to feed a bit lighter, giving my snakes 1 appropriately sized rodent every 7 days unless they're a female I'm prepping for breeding. My guys are coastals, however, which are reputed to be less prone to regurgitation problems when fed large meals so those feeding frequencies / numbers may be different because smaller more frequent meals are better for the desert localities.

-Alice