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View Full Version : What would you do if you got sent IBD?


Chris Red
02-18-2002, 12:49 PM
I'm going to post the Lab report here..so if any one can hip me to how, please do...I know some people are tired of hearing about this...but if was you I bet you would bring it up.....Chris

ReticEd
02-18-2002, 01:24 PM
The easiest way to get them on here would get the lab to
e-mail the lab results to you , or put them on word yourself, then copy paste to the forum.

What exactly happened, were they sent with obvious signs or did they develop later?
From a reputable dealer, small time dealer or otherwise?
And what were the snakes? boas? pythons?
Other conditions, such as mites, etc.?

Are the lab results pending or final now?

Post them when you get them back and don't forget to include the info as to what lab and such too.

There is a member here that recieved an unmarked package, that had an IBD infected snake in it. Since he has dealt with this, maybe he could give some advice.

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 02:01 PM
I have them scaned...like a pic

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 02:23 PM
Ok...here is how the story goes...
So I bought a pair of Suriname Redtails from Bill Cagle off the class. at  kingsnake. When they arrived I was less then happy so I called Bill to tell him. Bill said to watch them for a week and see how they did and if I wasn't happy he would send a new snake(the female was the one in question). So a week went by didn't eat and was having strange stool(green/yellow)..so I called him to let him know and he said that he knew after shipping them it was a bad idea and was so sorry  he sent Them to me and would send me a snake from his" private collection" and if I wanted to keep the sick one and see what was wrong with it to go ahead.I also asked him were he got the snakes and he told me
(no need to say right now)he bought them from a dealer at the Atlanta show.
 O.k.  so the snake gets here and it looks fine....so I bring all three of them to the vet. The First one(male from the pair) probed out to be a female and looked ok but very thin.
The second(the one sent for replacement)....look great the vet said.....ok now the third one(the sickest one)...was full of parasites and worms and moving very slow. So we put her on antibiotics and wormed her. When I got home I called Bill and told him what the deal was on the  so called male and we worked it out after much BS and he sent me a male that was  nice,not wanting the other one back that should tell you somthing right there....  That night the female passed so I brought it to the vet. to have send off for lab report. Two weeks latter I get back the report and it had tested positive for IBD.
O.k. at this point I'm freaking out I house around 20 snakes...now the two snakes that were sent first were sold as a pair(really a trio so someone else out there bought the third from Cagle),shipped as a pair and house as a trio before I ever bought them....not only that the boxes he shipped in were old and beat up with six other labels on them...that can't be clean..so now I have one dead snake, one I'm sure has IBC poor looking snake and two good looking snakes I feel uncertain about...all this in less then one month....Chris

Brian Oakley
02-18-2002, 02:46 PM
Chris,
I have to ask........why has your last name changed from what you use on the Boa forum?  Just does not look right if you ak me.
Brian Oakley

Tony Basicas Weirdsnakes
02-18-2002, 03:00 PM
UNBELIEVEABLE !!!!!!!!!! spam_
And NOW the rest of the story....
The 2 adult surinames Chris was sent where sold to him for $400 a reduced price because they where being sold as needing to be kept quarantined and less than perfect. spam_Chris admits that not only did he not quarantine but when he received the new snake from Bills private collection he brought it and the sick snake TOGETHER to the vet effectively exposing the new snake to the sick ones that where suppose to be kept seperate !!! spam_Bill has offered to make this deal right and now chris has ended up with 4 adult suriname redtails 2 from Bills private collection and he is still pissing and moaning without providing any form of proof either from his own vet, pictures of the passed snake or reports from the lab !!! spam_If all of a sudden animals in his collection show up with IBD only one person can be blamed !!! Chris himself for not following any form of quarantine procedures.
Now was Bill incorrect in selling these animals as a pair..yes..did he make more than good on that mistake YES. spam_Did he sell the original pair as high quality perfectly healthy animals NO NO NO!!!!
All I can say is
SELLERS BEWARE OF THIS BUYER !!!!!!!
He goes also by
Chris, Chris H and CDH on the boa forums on kingsnake. spam_And now he appears to yet have another last name !!!!

SELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARE
SELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARESELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARESELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARESELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARESELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARESELLERS BEWARE SELLERS BEWARE

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 03:30 PM
Your just looking.....look harder..."CDH" Christopher Dolph Henrich...Chris H.(short for my last name)..Chris Red is my working name(I'm a musician and Billy G. from ZZ top gave me the name and lots of people know me only to that name)...sorry it was to late I all ready registered.
Seller beware of what my money!!! I've bought snakes from many people and have never had a problem like this. I have nothing to hide...

The BoidSmith
02-18-2002, 03:42 PM
Maybe it's elemental but I don't recognize the abreviation. Could someone explain me what is IBD please?

Thanks,

Daniel

AbsoluteApril
02-18-2002, 04:12 PM
Here is some info on IBD:
IBD info from Dr. Jacobson in Florida (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/IBDINFO.html)
Basically it is an incurrable disease that mainly effects
boas and pythons.. sometimes called the boa Aids.

HerpVenue
02-18-2002, 04:42 PM
HERE IS MY THING.
If I bought two snakes for $400 and they were sold to me to be imperfect and needing quarantine........I would not have bought them in the first place.  But if I did...It would be okay.  Because I quarantine all my snakes.  (Well except for one)
Bill Sent to you two other "healthy" snakes to replace the sick ones..  So everything is a done deal.  It is no longer his fault if you exposed the healthy ones to the sick ones.

Short story.  You bought and paid for two (2) healthy snakes.
What you got  in the end was two (2) healthy snakes.   Yes you got some UNhealthy ones along the way.  But he tried to make up for it by giving you some from his own collection.

Yes he was wrong for selling you snakes "with IBD"  (which you have not proven)  But he tried to make up for it by selling you healthy ones and you go and expose them to the sick snakes.  (THAT IS NOT HIS FAULT)

And Tony wasn't saying beware of your money.  He is saying beware of selling to you.  Your husbandry techniques are not quite up to par.   It means you are the type of customer that does not know the proper techniques of taking care of an animal.....hence any animal that gets sold to you CAN end up dying and you WILL end up blaming the seller.

Both parties are at fault in this case.
Bill made up for his part by sending you his own personall snakes.

As for you ....only thing you have done is to prove to everyone the following

1. you do not post with your full name and you use different ones.  (If everyone knows your working name....then why use a different one on the other forum)

2.  You do not have proper husbandry techniques.  (Hence selling to you would be a bad Idea)

3.  You can't Read.  The rules of this forum clearly state that you have to post with your full first and last name.

4.  You are quick to put the blame on other people.  (Bill made a  mistake of selling you two sick snakes...Now you wanna blame him for the other two and for the rest of your collection possibly getting IBD)

The BoidSmith
02-18-2002, 04:52 PM
April,

Thanks for the info. By the way very useful web page.

Daniel

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 05:11 PM
I quarantined the two snakes..I never exposed the new ones to them..I have no idea what your talking about...it's not me I'm worried about...Cagle told me him self that one of the snakes he bought from the same dealer at the same show was in his breeding room already....breeding(lets see the show was in Dec. does that sound like oh...2 months)...he thought would make me feel better...now you tell me who has bad husbandry. He shipped both of them to me in the same beat up box....does that sound like they were quarantined before I got them....
What about the person who has the third one out of the trio...you think Bill Cagle called them and warned them that the snake is highly caring IBD.....

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 05:17 PM
I already registered...I could not go back and change it...ding dong why would I use the same first name...Ritchie I just sent you the IBD report....there is your proof

HerpVenue
02-18-2002, 05:37 PM
Yes I got the copies.  They look legit.  We are now cool on that
When did you recieve your snakes?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Cagle told me him self that one of the snakes he bought from the same dealer at the same show was in his breeding room already....breeding(lets see the show was in Dec. does that sound like oh...2 months)...he thought would make me feel better...now you tell me who has bad husbandry</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

YES. Two months is an acceptable time frame to some. &nbsp;It is with me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He shipped both of them to me in the same beat up box....does that sound like they were quarantined before I got them....</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Okay what does that have to do with quarantine procedures? &nbsp;They came from the same person at the same show. &nbsp;They can be shipped in the same box. &nbsp;I have shipped five snakes in the same box before. &nbsp;What does that have to do with quarantine procedures.

The answer to your question of what would I do if someone sent me IBD.
I would ask that someone to send me Replacement snakes...end of story. &nbsp;IBD happens. &nbsp;It was not his fault. &nbsp;But I would definately ask him to replace the sick snakes. &nbsp;You cam e on here practically stating that he sent it to you knowing it had IBD,.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not only that the boxes he shipped in were old and beat up with six other labels on them...that can't be clean..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Go ahead and ask how many people reuse their boxes. &nbsp;I know I do. &nbsp;If a snake got shipped in a certain box and it proved to be sick....I would then throw away that box. &nbsp;Or I would spray it down real good with VIRAHOL. &nbsp;hospital grade antivirus.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I quarantined the two snakes..I never exposed the new ones to them</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">O.k. &nbsp;so the snake gets here and it looks fine....so I bring all three of them to the vet</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

So how did you quarantine them....by brining all three to the vet. &nbsp;Probably all in the same bag or box.

Tony Basicas Weirdsnakes
02-18-2002, 05:39 PM
"O.k. &nbsp;so the snake gets here and it looks fine....so I bring all three of them to the vet. The First one(male from the pair) probed out to be a female and looked ok but very thin.
The second(the one sent for replacement)....look great the vet said.....ok now the third one(the sickest one)..."
----------------------------------------------------------
"I quarantined the two snakes..I never exposed the new ones to them..I have no idea what your talking about"
----------------------------------------------------------
So um which is it ? You brought them to the clinic together or let me guess you used 2 seperate cars, different exam rooms changed your clothes in between etc ?

Simply put Bill had a less than perfect deal with you, did he make it right, lets see you paid for 2 imperfect snakes and now have 3 adult snakes 2 exceptional specimens and you are still complaining and wanting more <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> &nbsp;I have no doubt you got the tests done and if it was IBD than yes Bill needs to let the other buyer know of the situation. &nbsp;The Board of Inquiry is a place to post about people with BAD dealings and in this case Bill seems to have made the deal good as quickly as he was able to...what more do you want <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Brian Oakley
02-18-2002, 05:51 PM
Chris,
I am sorry, I am not going to get AS INVOLVED as I did on the boa forum, but I do have a question.
On the boa forum you said you wantd him to cover anything you lose in the next 2 years. &nbsp;A little much, but that is what you asked. &nbsp;With that said, you stated here that your snakes were never around your other snakes. &nbsp;If that is the case, why have you brought up how many snakes you own (20 you said) and why would he have to cover anythig that dies for 2 years?
Just curious.
Brian Oakley

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 06:23 PM
I brought them in bags...not the best way but all I had.
OK...the 2 year plan was a little crazy to ask for..he told me that if his snakes come down with IBD because of the other dealer that he would burn the other guys &nbsp;place down...so he knows it sucks I promise he is thinking about right now.. Cagle had been avoiding me...so I post and the next morning 8 a.m. he called ready to deal but he also told me he wanted to hire a P.I. find me and get a ticket to Houston...after much BS...he agred to send the money plus vet. bills if posted the whole truth I found out...he was mad at the party he bought from.. so anyway he just never pay-paled the money...he even told me he was going to send me heat packs and to just kill the sick one

Chris Red
02-18-2002, 07:17 PM
sorry that did not type out right..Let me rephrase that...those were things he said he wanted to do...and he was telling me just to be honest. They were not treats...just points to express his anger..

Greg Riso
02-18-2002, 07:17 PM
I think I've been scammed! In December I sent a beautiful Brazilian Rainbow to someone named Chris who claimed it was DOA. I was stunned because I had taken every possible precaution using two heatpacks in a highly insulated box and have never had any problems prior to this. The person stated that the snake was ice cold and stunk very badly. Mind you it took him 45 minutes to e-mail me to tell me the snake didn't make it after receiving it. I asked him to take a picture of it and he claimed he could only use his webcam and the snake stunk so badly his wife wouldn't let him bring it in the house. I then instructed him to put the snake in a ziplock bag so he could take a pic of it. I received a few pics which my girlfriend thought were very suspicious since the quality was so poor and it seemed the snake was being held in an odd position against its will. In other words it appeared it was still alive trying to right itself and being posed to look like it was dead. He told me the Rainbow was his Christmas present to his wife and she was looking forward to getting it so much and so on. I did what I felt I had to do and that was to immediately send him a replacement snake. All went well the second time around but I always thought that there must be scammers out there that get tons of free snakes in this manner. To me this situation with the Surinames where Chris expects Bill Cagle to be responsible for his whole collection if things go awry sounds like this type of individual. I don't know if this is the same person and the changing the last name thing sounds like he doesn't want people who've been scammed by him to recognize a pattern of ripoffs. I hope I'm wrong and if I am I'm sorry.

HerpVenue
02-18-2002, 07:37 PM
what was the guys last name and e-mail...is it the same person as this guy?


Hey Chris....if you practiced good quarantine procedures like you said you did.....why would he need to replace your whole collection? &nbsp;It has not even been a month......Your snakes should not have absolutley any contact with the sick ones

The BoidSmith
02-18-2002, 08:33 PM
First it would be interesting to know from Bill himself if he knew the snakes were sick (not necessarily IBD). It SEEMS likely as he agreed to send two other snakes from his own collection upon request. Second it would be interesting to know if he told Chris about it. If he did tell him, it would be interesting to know if Chris accepted them anyways because "the price was right". As for the quarantine it seems that it didn't take place at all. I guess we are stuck with just one bell ringing here.

Daniel

RRaider
02-18-2002, 11:24 PM
Just So everyone will know, I post as Chris on Kingsnake.com and I know at least one other person who is not Chris H. does also. So, some of you may be mistaken on who's posts your reading on Kingsnake.com. In fact I almost registered as Chris H. as My name is Chris Hayes but saw his username just before I registered.

Sandy
02-19-2002, 01:28 AM
WAIT! He lies too. He claims Bill Cagle uses other peoples names when signing posts. One of these names he said Bill signed himself as, has been a very good friend of mine for 8 years. Her name is Lisa. I know for a fact that this is a lie. Lisa has been sitting back reading all the crap this kid is saying and has posted absolutely NOTHING.You can read my comment to this Chris ( oh wow, maybe he's more like Sybil!)person on the KS forum. I don't think he'd be happy if God himself came down and gave him his perfect creation!

Tribal Propagation
02-19-2002, 06:44 AM
Just curious, but when did they start being able to identify Inclusion Body Disease by doing a fecal exam or a mouth swab? Last I knew the only way to tell if the snake was positive was a necropsy and checking the kidneys & liver. True the snakes may be sick, but I would get a second opinion on the results. If they are in fact sick with IBD, euthanize them now! Do the responsible thing and don't pawn them off on anyone else to further spread this infection around. IBD has become the number one witch hunt and many sick snakes that have been misdiagnosed have been euthanized for now reason. If your really curious by pass your vet and find the center for disease control (animal division) and have them do a necropsy. Good luck!


Tribal Propagation:
Brian & Laura
1255 Saratoga Lane
Geneva FL 32732
407-349-2824

ReticEd
02-20-2002, 09:30 AM
As for IBD, no, there isn't any test for when the animal is alive! I asked the same to PARC and I got this as a reply mail.

There is no definitive blood test for IBD. Sometimes you can see inclusions in red blood cells that are associated with IBD, but not diagnostic of IBD. Inclusions can be caused by other things, and the red cell inclusions are not manufacturing centers of virus. So...... definitive diagnosis of IBD remains a diagnosis made only by tissue biopsy. Inclusions are best found in biopsies of the sophageal tonsil, liver, kideny, or digestive sytsem. Biopsies can be obtained pre-mortem by endoscopy. Charles Innis, VMD


And here's a link for more,
VetMed IBD (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/IBDINFO.html)

AZTEC FRED
02-21-2002, 04:57 AM
What would I do?
since this has allready passed, and Chris will have by now taken the snake to get a necropsey done on it to confirm I.B.D.i will adress it from that point out.



CHRIS,


I would get rid of all the snakes in your collection that you currently have. &nbsp;I would EUTHANIZE the two replacement snakes you got from Bill Cagle from his"private collection"

I would discard food bowls, cages, utensild or heat pads/racks.
In short I would gut your collection and start all over about 5 months from now.
I am NOT saying this to be vindictive, that is what I would do.

And I would buy boas in the future from ONLY known breeders who live close enough so that you can visit andsee their snakes and the care they take of them. &nbsp;Failing that, a reputable outlett or person, like Peter Watson, Pro Exotics, or Matt Turner would be MY choice for boas.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;fred

Brian Oakley
02-21-2002, 10:03 AM
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! GREAT POST FRED!
I have been saying that, but I was "overreacting", "paranoid", "have no knowledge".
I could not have said it better myself.
Thank you Fred.
Brian Oakley

CFRB
02-21-2002, 11:10 PM
Come on people you are making me feel real old hear. IBD was identified in the 70's and has probably been around for 100's of years. It was a major concern in the mid 80's to python breeders. A boa can carry the decease for its whole life without showing any symptoms. But a python once exposed has little time. As a cheap test you can house a Ball Python with a boa 30 days and if IBD is present you will have a dead Ball Python . The virus is shed during stress, and the housing them together will provide that. Also the test procedure is a liver biopsy and can be done on a live animal for about $110 and involves to 2 ventral scales, 2 stitches and a small sample for the lab. Please study the animals in which you want to keep or breed and be aware of the risks involved with every purchase. spam_Lets come together and help each other and provide homes and life, for the animals who's habitats we destroy.

bssnakes
02-21-2002, 11:40 PM
CFBR,
&nbsp; &nbsp;You have my attention. &nbsp;And I hope some others.
You need to include your full name with your post or it will be deleted. &nbsp;Can you tell me where to research this topic??
Thanks,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Tom

bssnakes
02-21-2002, 11:42 PM
I am sorry I meant CFRB!!!
&nbsp; &nbsp; Tom

CFRB
02-22-2002, 12:01 AM
The reference material that everyone is looking at is 1985, we have made some advances in the last 17 years. Sure we do not have the vaccine but we do have the test. My Vet charges $110 and it takes about 2 weeks for results. I have been lucky so far and try to buy my Boas from people who also have pythons.

ReticEd
02-22-2002, 01:22 PM
This is a copy of an e-mail I got from CFRB

Quote-Eddie,
Not to be an ass but the paper you are using as reference is
is 1985. We have come a long way in 17 years if you need a vet to do a liver biopsy just call a good reptile vet.
Chuck

When I asked about newer material, this is the reply I recieved


Quote-Its a live check call your Vet.
Chcuk


I called my vets, they said there isn't a 'conclusive ' live test,
Probably won't be for a number of years and if you trust your vet to make a biopsy of a living snakes liver or otherwise, then you are going to wind up with mis-information, a dead snake and scammed by your vet.
The only 'conclusive' test that ANY of the vets in my area are aware of is a post mortem biopsy, and trust me, we got some vets here that are great, young and fresh out of school at the emergency hospital.

So once again, I ask you here and not by e-mail,where can we ALL find the info, or can we get the # or e-mail, for your vet so that we CAN learn more of this 100% incureable, 100% mortality
rate disease?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

ReticEd
02-22-2002, 01:29 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have been lucky so far and try to buy my Boas from people who also have pythons.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Wouldn't it make sense that if the breeders you go to are following the proper quarentine procedures to begin with, that it shouldn't matter what else they keep, breed, sell, give away, trade or other?

In other words, it wouldn't make a difference whether they have pythons or not.

Then again, you gots to be very trusting to go with their word on whether or not they lost any pythons to IBD, they are in for $$$, not for the sake of the animals, hence the massive need for rescues.

Rainbowboaman
02-22-2002, 04:41 PM
I feel for Chris in this situation,even though he didn't follow correct Quarentine procedures. The fact remains he was sent poor sick animals. Chris has gone through alot of stress time & money throught this ordeal & will be stressed out about if for many months to come to see if any of his other animals were infected (even though bad husbandry would be only reason this could happen). The last time the seller of the IBD animals in question here had a problem on BOI he came to defend himself. Where is he at now? I see still selling snakes.
Just my thoughts on the situation.
Chris Pearson

bssnakes
02-24-2002, 09:12 AM
Hey Chris,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Have you contacted Bill Cagle since you found out for sure that it is IBD?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?? &nbsp;And if so what did he say???
&nbsp; &nbsp;Tom

Chris Red
02-24-2002, 06:42 PM
yes...

HerpVenue
02-24-2002, 07:17 PM
I need some questions answered

What date did you receive the snakes.

What date did bill send you a replacement.

What date did you take it to the vet.

What date did it die.

What date did bill send you more snakes.

What date did you take it back to the vet

I need a step by step date thing.

Chris Red
02-24-2002, 10:12 PM
I will have to think about that....for the most part with in one month...I'll get back on all the dates

Todd Evans
02-25-2002, 01:02 PM
As far as IBD, Our collection was hit with it about a year ago or more........we had purchased 2 large RTBs from a local guy who had got them as a rescue. &nbsp;We needed large good looking snakes for a fair display we were doing over the summer. &nbsp;We unfortunately weren't concnerned with a quarantee because we had ASSUMED that the snakes were healthy. &nbsp;Well, for the display we housed them with a smaller 1 year old boa, a large rescue we had (no tail and a REALLY bad scar on his back) and a ground boa. &nbsp;Unfortunately, 3 months later, the ground boa passed away, then the baby went......at that point, we weren't even going to wait for the vets necropsy, so we froze ALL boas we had. &nbsp;discarded the cages and everything that had ever come in contact with the boas....probes, hemos, etc. &nbsp;It was a painful experience but we weren't relying on those animals to breed for us....they were, like I said, either used for displays, rescues, or my own personal pets. &nbsp;It WAS a great emotional loss for me, but so as to not spread this disease any further, we rid ourselves of any threats of it. &nbsp;If those things had happened to breed, and we still weren't sure of their health, we MAY have sold the babies not knowing what we were doing....of course, if we had planned on breeding the boas, we would've had a necropsy done on the 2 dead snakes, just to make sure.

Now, I'm not totally positive that it was IBD, but all the symptoms were there in the 2 dead snakes.......If we do ever decide to get back into boas, we're prepared for it.

Tony Basicas Weirdsnakes
02-25-2002, 01:09 PM
There where much more in depth posts about this "live" test for IBD so I thought since sooo many people are viewing this story that I would re-post this information here.

The closest test that can be performed on a live animal for IBD is a tissue biopsy. Taking a liver biopsy which in and of itself unless done by a VERY experienced vet can cause early death of the snake (due to numerous factors such as anesthesia, liver not functioning well and other pre-existing health issues). It is an obviously invasive and $$$expensive test. As for mouth swabs and blood test there is absolutely NO 100% test for IBD other than post-mortem necropsy. Even the liver biopsy is NOT 100% simply because only a very small sample is taken from the liver and there may not be inclusions in that particular part of the liver especially if it is a very early onset case of IBD. Unfortunately the only other way to test live animals for IBD use to be done years ago and most consider it appauling. Yep the old ball python test :^( Since ball pythons seem to be extremely susceptible to IBD then tend to die rapidly after being exposed to IBD i.e. within a month or so after exposure. Breeders use to keep ball pythons to test for IBD, I'm pretty sure it is no longer done and I hope that mentioning this won't rekindle this practice simply because they are also living animals and not a test. Not to mention that even if trying this method the dead ball python would still need to be tested for IBD so its not really a viable method. Anyway just wanted to get some more veterinary based information out there. As for how common this disease is <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>? Your guess is as good as everyone elses, until we get a 100% viable living specimen test we will never know how common it is. Boa Constrictors do appear to be able to survive as carriers of this disease so like I said until a living test is found we will never know how common it is. What does this mean to everyone..very simple
RELIGIOUSLY practice 2 things !!!
#1 Extensive QUARANTINE procedures and
#2 Extensive almost STERILE cleaning and handling procedures within your collections !!!

There you go.
Just more information for everyone out there from the veterinary field.

ReticEd
02-26-2002, 07:53 AM
Thanks Tony!

I knew that some one would reinforce the facts! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

CFRB
03-20-2002, 02:02 PM
I am posting the report of Matts Boa that was purchased from ( DALE PECOLA ) of San Diego Vivarium. I personally delivered the snake to Bruce Bogoslavsky, the company's personal spam_Vet for necropsy. With IBD having a gestation period of 28 days, you can see that the snake had been exposed at a minimum of 18 days before Matt received the snake. I am not here to bash but just to clarify the fact that the source was not Matt nor Bill . This could happen to anyone who buys and sells Boas. But the disturbing thing is the denial and shifting of blame instead of the concern of the species, spam_customers, spam_and collections that may have received exposed animals. If you are not concerned with the animals or the hobby why be involved, there are plenty of ways to make a dollar.
Charles Barker
http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/2052VETREPORT-med.jpg

BILL CAGLE
03-20-2002, 09:50 PM
SHAM, HUH? spam_IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL THIS? I DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR APOLOGY, AS I KNOW IT IS NOT SINCERE. YOU ASKED TO HEAR FROM ME SOME MORE, SO HERE YOU GO.....

TODAY MY LAWYER SPOKE WITH MR. CHRISTOPHER ROWAN, OWNER OF PET CRAZY, A PET STORE IN SAN DIEGO, CA. THIS WAS A FRIEND OF DALES BEFORE HE ALSO GOT SCAMMED BY MR. PICOLLA AS WELL. MY LAWYER AND MYSELF HAVE BOTH SPOKEN TO MR. ROWAN, AND HE HAS GIVEN US QUITE A BIT MORE EVIDENCE. DALE SOLD ONE OF HIS BOAS THROUGH CHRIS' PET STORE, USING CHRIS' CREDIT CARD MACHINE, TO RECEIVE PAYMENT. DALE SOLD A BOA TO LINDA CAMERON FOR $1200 AND IT DIED TWO DAYS LATER. SHE HAS NOW REFUSED PAYMENT ON THE CREDIT CARD, AND CHRISTOPHER ROWAN IS NOW STUCK WITH THE BILL. DALE ALSO OWES MR. ROWAN $1000 AND HAS FAILED TO PAY THIS AS WELL. YOU ASKED FOR ME TO SPEAK DALE AND NOW I HAVE.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY QUESTIONS, HERE IS MR. ROWAN'S PHONE NUMBER. YOU GUYS CAN CALL AND TALK WITH HIM YOURSELVES: (858)503-0037
I KNOW DALE, HE'S PROBABLY JUST ANOTHER "BAD GUY", RIGHT?!? IF YOU NEED ME TO SAY ANYMORE, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK. I'VE GOT PLENTY MORE EVIDENCE WHERE THIS CAME FROM. WE CAN TALK ABOUT PET KINGDOM, ANOTHER PET STORE IN SAN DIEGO, IF YOU WANT ME TO GO ANY FURTHER. CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR BACK FROM YOU, DALE.

BRAZ
03-20-2002, 10:31 PM
MR CAMERON WAS SOLD 3 HEALTHY SNAKES HE CIEVED THEM
IN GOOD SHAPE.THREE WEEKS LATER HE SAIS THEY DIED.
HE NEVER SENT ME A VET REPORT LIKE HE SAIS HE WOULD.
ITS BEEN OVER A MONTH NOW.
CHRIS ROWAN CAN CALL ME TO SETTLE OUR FINANCIAL DIS-
AGREEMENTS IF HE LIKE &nbsp;619-944-1772 OR BETTER YET
ILL CALL HIM. PET KINGDOM SOLD A MAN I KNOW A BOA
THAT WAS CONFIRMED WITH IBD BY AVIAN ANIMAL EXOTIC HOSPITAL IN SAN DIEGO. I BELIEVE THEY SOLD HIM THE ANIMAL KNOWIN THIS.