Bad Guy JMG Reptiles not so good..

[Kristi23]

I worked at both the Myrtle Beach and Daytona show this year and as most of you know i only work with and sell Western Hognose,I had a tremendous interest in my product from the younger crowd as always. I would have to say that it's the parents responsibility to help the kids make the correct choices and parent supervision is a must at my table.As for the snakes health,I will only give you my true experiences with Western Hognose,swollen scent glands is VARY common in older adult female Western Hognose,if we were talking about a male Western Hognose that would be a different story in it's self. Normally swollen scent glands starts to show up when the female reaches around 300 grams and four to five years age.I have one eleven year old yellow adult female that has had enlarged scent glands for years and I consider her to be in great health,you can see a photo of her in the new Western Hognose Morph book.

I'm so confident that the snake you purchased from JMG is good health that I will purchase her from you and cover the shipping as well.

Brent Bumgardner
Superconda.com

You are definitely someone I would trust. Your offer to purchase the snake is really generous.

 

[OhioGecko]

Here's a picture of a severely swollen musk gland. Does this look benign?? Why on earth would you be willing to accept this in your collection..I wouldn't!!

The person in the video is talking to Justin, is that you? Is it your snake?

How can you tell someone this is normal, it isn't, you will almost never see this in a WC specimen. It is a husbandry/captive issue.
This is what will happen to some of the females that develop this condition, the gland will continue to enlarge until it becomes infected, ruptures and the hognose dies. A Vet will tell you the same thing. This is as benign as it looks.

Who said that was normal, is that the snake the purchased from JMG? Have you seen the snake purchased. Do you regularly diagnose snakes without seeing them? How many hognose have you had die from ruptured musk glands? If so do you have a vet report to back it up.

Many breeders are very heavily invested into hognose. Myself included. So we have something to loose if people stopped buying hogs because of these issues. My personal belief is some breeders are ignoring the problem, saying it doesn't exist or misrepresent the severity of it. 1st and foremost to avoid all arguments take the animal to a vet and see what they have to say..it wont be encouraging. You would think with 25-50% impaction rates that some of these breeders would of invested some time and effort to do this. Seems like they haven't since they only offer opinions, no causes or remedies. This is an epidemic both of the mind and species.

Do you have vet report and biopsy reports to back up what you are writing, or is it of your opinion?

The video shown is a joint project taken trying to solve this issue or at the very least keep it manageable. It has been determined that the cause appears to be mechanical in nature..due to drying of the ducts.. dry bedding and not enough time soaking seems to be the culpit. Today much of my collection except for the older girls are free of this issue due to frequent soaks + moisture from a hide box. I'd like to challenge these guys to keep higher standards please, seek medical attention for there animals and please don't pass this issue on to the customer.

Wow, you just contradicted your self here. "Except for older girls". JMG and Baumgardner both explained the swollen glands only showing up in older females. You come on here with your own agenda explaining how other breeders are ignoring the issue and then turn around and state that some of your older females have swollen musk glands, that is hypocrisy........

If it was due to environment, why doesn't any males display swollen glands? If it is only in older females I would think it has to do more with egg bearing and possibly the size of the snake, but hey..... that is just my own opinion.

All of my animals featured in the new Hognose book..which is quite a few..are completely healthy and disease/condition free. Just as it should be.
All the Best,
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Without facts for proof all the info you have given above is in "your opinion". I do see you agree with JMG and Baumgardner that it is only displayed in older females, which backs up what JMG told the customer.

 

[Kristi23]

Great post Thad! I was wondering many of those things also. I know Justin doesn't have the best history, so I wasn't sure if I could trust what he was saying.

 

[ronritzer]

The snake isn't sick and there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[jmgreptile.com]

The one thing I did do wrong with this sale was forgetting to mention the females tail. Had I remembered to mention it before the sale I would have. I really should have had it written on the container to avoid this because we did have a lot going on at the show with four tables to manage. I do recall the buyer coming to our table three times total before purchasing the snake and at one time saying he had to go get money for her. She was purchased a little afternoon on Sunday at the expo.

I wouldn't really suggest any vets opinion as Justin suggested due solely to the fact most veterinarians are not qualified herp vets. I would like to ask Justin how many enlarged scent glands in female hognose has he seen where it eventually ruptured and killed the snake? I have never heard of anyone with a large female hognose dying due to this but an autopsy would be needed to diagnose the cause of death. In Justins first post he says he believes it's from dry substrate or pieces of left over shed in the musk glands. He doesn't say that's what it is caused from or a qualified veterinarian was able to diagnose that is the actual problem, he says he believes that is what causes it. He also is the one that uses the word " benign " to describe some of the females with enlarged musk glands then turns around and posts a picture of a female with enlarged musk glands and posts " this is benign as it looks ". I am not convinced this is solely due to blockage of the musk glands, the issue has only been seen in older large female hognose and they don't need to be soaked for them to expel musk over loads. You can't just push it out either, if you forcefully try push it out that could possibly cause a rupture. What works well is if you get a female with enlarged musk glands extremely ticked off and encourage her to start musking and then if you want you can push at the bottom of her tail towards the vent and the musk will come out with ease. The females musk glands have to be open though for this to work and once they are open it's not hard to push out the excess musk. This is a definite issue in large female hognose that has not been discussed, most breeders I believe tend to stay away from the subject in fear of hurting their reputation or scaring people from the hognose market versus making it a public discussion. I'm glad this has been brought to light though and this was posted. What really needs to be done is a female with swollen musk glands needs to be taken in to a qualified vet and a investigation of the musk glands has to be performed to see if there really is some sort of blockage.

Finally if you go to Justins available page with pictures of female hognose laying eggs there are pictures of six females with enlarged musk glands. Below is a list of the females you can see with enlarged musk glands on Justins available page. As discussed this is an issue only seen in bigger older females and a lot of the females with pictures on his page are smaller young females laying eggs and can't have the issue.

Third row down fourth over from the left
Third row down third over from the left
Fourth row down second over from the left
Sixth row down first picture on the left
Bottom row second over from the left
Bottom row third over from the left

 

[CJReptiles]

I'm typing this on my phone as my internet is out. My vet said it is secondary to an infection. So it is a big deal and not just "cosmetic"

 

[fangme]

I believe you have to give your vets name

 

[CJReptiles]

I'm not going to involve an innocent guy and open him up to criticism. He is the best herp vet in the country, he wrote the book on herp medicine. Bottom line is he sold my son a snake that should have not have been sold, and did not disclose the problem to the buyer. Would you not be upset if you paid 180.00 for it?

 

[CJReptiles]

And it was Saturday not Sunday

 

[fangme]

I'm not going to involve an innocent guy and open him up to criticism. He is the best herp vet in the country, he wrote the book on herp medicine. Bottom line is he sold my son a snake that should have not have been sold, and did not disclose the problem to the buyer. Would you not be upset if you paid 180.00 for it?

Personally no because I've had hognoses that have had this happen and I know Jeff and Jeff jr and they have a good track history with me and a very good reputation. But to each his own. But I was saying the earlier statement because I believe all 3rd party info needs to be released per boi rules.

 

[OhioGecko]

If the vet evaluated the snake, why are you hesitant to post the report?

 

[Rextiles]

Lessons to be learned here...

As a seller:
#1 - Never sell to a minor without an adult present.
#2 - Always openly disclose (and mark on container) any known abnormal issues with the animal.

As a buyer:
#1 - Ask a lot of questions about the animal you are interested in and always thoroughly examine the animal prior to purchasing or before leaving the premises.
#2 - For parents and children: If you are a minor, always have your parents with you to help you to ask questions and examine the animal you are interested in. If you are a parent, always be with your children while they are making a purchase so that you know what exactly they are buying and from whom.

For everyone else:
#1 - Never take someone's uneducated (meaning, no formal schooling on the matter) opinion as informed medical advice.
#2 - Always question people's motives for posting such opinion should it reflect poorly against a competitor and always heavily question evidence (such as pictures, quotes, etc.) from such people.



I'm not pointing figures or judging anybody, just publicly stating things that can be learned from this thread.

 

[jmgreptile.com]

This is the problem I had right from the start. I try to inform the customer about the animal in question and the customer doesn't acknowledge anything I say at first until I actually confront him about it. I offer some solutions to the problem and I don't hear back whether he liked the offer or not. I told him to ask about it on a hognose forum and to ask hognose breeders. He doesn't post it on any hognose forum and get's an opinion from one person ( Justin ) who not only didn't have any actual evidence or evidenve from someone qualified to support what he was saying he also has pictures of female hognose on his web site with enlarged musk glands. Anyone posting a bad guy thread on the BOI should really inform the breeder ( I was never informed, no e-mail, no phone call ) I was notified by someone else through an e-mail. He also does have to share the Veterinarians name if he is going to make the claims he is making, that is part of the BOI rules. This actually should have never been a bad guy thread in my opinion, it should have been a inquiry on the topic / dispute.

 

[jmgreptile.com]

Also, when I was 15 years old I took two big female hognose with enlarged musk glands to a local vet that specializes in herps. She was able to determine it wasn't an infection and it was a build up of musk, she did not know what it was caused from though. Her name is Dr.Wendt and she is out of lakewood Ohio.

 

[jmgreptile.com]

Lessons to be learned here...

As a seller:
#1 - Never sell to a minor without an adult present.

For anyone really young I wouldn't sell to them without a parent. I don't know anyone at shows that ID's younger people before they sell a reptile to them unless it's venomous.

#2 - Always openly disclose (and mark on container) any known abnormal issues with the animal.

This is what the dispute is mainly about that this isn't really all that abnormal in large female hognose and is actually somewhat common.

 

[Rextiles]

Like I said Jeff, I'm not pointing fingers. Just stating things that should probably be considered by most people, sellers and buyers alike.

Now, I do agree that this should not have necessarily escalated into a Bad Guy thread right away as I do personally believe that the buyers in this instance would have been far more informed as to the condition of the snake if certain guidelines, like the ones I pointed out, had been used. But then again, things would have transpired differently had you done the same. Again, I'm not saying one party or the other are necessarily to blame, I think blame can be spread around here equally. But that's just my opinion and based on the mistakes made by both parties, I will now address certain issues differently now.

Lessons to be learned here...

As a seller:
#1 - Never sell to a minor without an adult present.

For anyone really young I wouldn't sell to them without a parent. I don't know anyone at shows that ID's younger people before they sell a reptile to them unless it's venomous.

Well, I'm not saying necessarily that it needs to be done this way, but this is the way I look at it... Most pet stores won't sell animals to minors. There's a very good reason for that! Why should reptile shows really be any different than the reasons why most pet stores adhere to this code? In fact, people, especially kids, in my opinion, are more apt to make impulsive purchases at a reptile show than they would at a pet store, primarily because it's such a fast paced selling environment and people don't usually get a chance to really reflect on a particular purchase, especially if they fear it's going to be sold within minutes. So people make purchases on the fly and that's when mistakes can be made.

As a seller, I think it's especially responsible to have such an edict; it shows that you are looking to curb impulsive purchases made by children as well as making sure that the parents know what their child is in fact purchasing. How many parents out there have let their kids loose to purchase whatever they want and ended up having a pet that was ultimately unwanted? Of course, having said that, it also ensures that you care about who your animals are being sold to.

But that's just my take on things.

#2 - Always openly disclose (and mark on container) any known abnormal issues with the animal.

This is what the dispute is mainly about that this isn't really all that abnormal in large female hognose and is actually somewhat common.

Now, I wasn't specifically stating this about the overall gland issue. I was merely pointing it out because you actually did say "The one thing I did do wrong with this sale was forgetting to mention the females tail. Had I remembered to mention it before the sale I would have.". Having said that, there are always going to be those animals that have abnormalities that should be noted on the container they are in. It's too easy to forget bringing it up and of course it's too easy for some buyers to initially overlook. Ultimately, it's up to the seller to disclose all and any information that would be pertinent to helping the buyer make an informed decision. You dropped the ball on this as you already said. But...the buyer did too as they should have carefully examined the animal before even purchasing let alone leaving the show. Again, lessons learned!

Now, about this whole gland issue... I have about 140 Western Hognose in my collection, probably 30+ of those being adult females, some being 5-7 years old. Perhaps I'm lucky or maybe I've not kept enough hognose for longer than some people to have witnessed this, but as far as my collection goes, I don't have any females that have ever shown this kind of swelling. And contradicting what Justin claims, I keep mine on solely on rabbit pellets, probably one of the dryer substrates out there being used, and again, I've never encountered this issue. I'm not saying it can't happen to any of the animals in my collection, I've just not seen it yet after almost 7 years of keeping and breeding Western hognose.

So, by saying that it isn't all that abnormal and actually quite common, I'd have to seriously question that as well as pretty much everything Justin has claimed. Perhaps others can chime in on about how common this is in their collections; I'm very intrigued by this claim!

 

[deadliesthatch]

Wow, I am sorry for everyone that it had to come to this. I must admit, though it has been very educational for me. For the record, this thread would not dissuade me from purchasing from JMG in the future and I believe that good, informed customers are as important as good sellers. Lesson learned.

 

[allreptiles1966]

To start off, they violated one of my personal rules. I always respectfully ask children to come back with an adult, even when they say "Mom just gave me this money to buy this animal."

Noelle

Never sell to a kid under 18 ! It keeps away a lot of possible problems. It leaves you open to many law problems when selling to minors.

 

[allreptiles1966]

Maybe I missed it, but how old is the son? He must not be too young if he's carrying that much money around and negotiating prices.

It really doesnt matter how much $ he had does it? I think dad was there with him at the show.
And $200 is not a lot of money now a days. A kid could save that in a couple months doing odd jobs.

But maybe he sholudn't be buying reptiles at that price without knowing about them,theres a good reson not to sell to a kid. But the person selling was wrong by not disclosing that bit of info to the kid,would he have done that to an adult who didn't know about the glands? It seems that the experienced people would not have even looked at the hog.

I wish your son good luck at resolving this. I would pay the shipping and send it back. Its a lesson he will learn and only cost him a 1/3 the value of the hog.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I worked at both the Myrtle Beach and Daytona show this year and as most of you know i only work with and sell Western Hognose,I had a tremendous interest in my product from the younger crowd as always. I would have to say that it's the parents responsibility to help the kids make the correct choices and parent supervision is a must at my table.As for the snakes health,I will only give you my true experiences with Western Hognose,swollen scent glands is VARY common in older adult female Western Hognose,if we were talking about a male Western Hognose that would be a different story in it's self. Normally swollen scent glands starts to show up when the female reaches around 300 grams and four to five years age.I have one eleven year old yellow adult female that has had enlarged scent glands for years and I consider her to be in great health,you can see a photo of her in the new Western Hognose Morph book.

I'm so confident that the snake you purchased from JMG is good health that I will purchase her from you and cover the shipping as well.

Brent Bumgardner
Superconda.com

Thats one hell of an offer Brent ! If i was a hog man i would be buying from you now.
Its nice to see some great people on here.