First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has posted their info on gout in this thread. It has been very informative.

Adam asks why some issues aren't being addressed. In the interest of doing so, I'll take a stab at a couple of thest. This is just an attempt to take an objective look at the questions, and provide feedback.

I think in regards to this claim, there is a lack of evidence. At the moment, it stands as hearsay. If you could produce a receipt for this 282 gram animal, and any other evidence, that'd probably be a good idea.

I think this has been addressed because earlier comments indicated that there was some blame assignment going on, and that doesn't seem to have abated much.

Adam has stated that he feels that a 65/35 split of liability is in order, which would be manifest in a replacement of a het albino animal. So, yes, there is an issue of assigning blame, here.

Here's the problem with assinging blame: The animal may have died due to someone's care. It may have died just from plain bad luck. A seller HAS to limit his or her liability at some point, and that's usually laid out as a health gaurantee in the terms of the sale. The buyer is responsible for knowing the sales terms and agreeing to them. If I read the timeline right, the animal was not reported to NERD until five months after the sale? Or was it two months? Whichever it was, the only question of liability should be: Did the snake develop problems, and were those problems reported, within the time limit set by the terms of the sale?

I have no doubt that Adam would do as he was requesting NERD do, and replace the albino with a het, were the situation reversed. It does seem like a reasonable, and kind thing to do. I do not, however, think that NERD is in any way obligated to take this course of action, nor that it reflects poorly on them. It seems that a discount was offered by NERD, so they did offer to make ammends beyond the basic terms of the sale. Although that may not meet Adam's personal standards in this case, it does show integrity on the part of the seller, IMHO.


This sounds like a personal issue. Nobody here has access to a reliable report of this phone conversation, so they cannot comment on it. The only commentary that's appropriate is how past conversations/transactions/problems were handled by Kevin or yourself, and they are largely irrelevant.

The identity of the person who posted with Kevin's signature is equally irrelevant. The fact is, whoever posted used NERD's login, and apparently had permission to act as Kevin's agent in making the post. Unless Kevin comes on here to refute that post, there's no reason to question the content.

Poor customer service is certainly noteworthy, but Adam has taken it so far beyond a siimple complaint of rudeness as to make any further comments in this area suspect. He's clearly been offended on a personal level. I'm not judging whether he's in the right or wrong in taking offense, only saying that this particular situation should not be held up as typical behavior for either party, since emotions seem to be running high.

On to the questions list. I know that quite a few of these were directed at Kevin/NERD, but I figured I'd take a crack at examining them.

1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?

It does not matter if the person posting did so as Kevin's agent in the matter. See above comments.

2) Why was your 2 year old snake only 282 Grams?

Hearsay. Show proof. See above comments.

3) Was this snake given water while on it's way to the show?

Was it given water on the way BACK from the show? This one goes two ways. Neither question can be answered conclusively here. As someone else pointed out, the likelihood that all parties cared for the animal to the best of their abilities seems very high.

4) You mention the great record keeping you maintain, would you be willing to tell us who else bought babies from that clutch?

Frankly, I'd be a might peeved if a dealer made my transactions with them public in such a manner. What's in his customers' collections is nobody's business except their own. It might be better to ask if he wouldn't mind having the customers who bought the rest of the clutch contact you or post here, though considering how confrontational and inflammatory your recent posts have been, I doubt he'd do so, and I wouldn't blame him.


5) How many meals was that baby fed before being sold?

I thought you already stated that he provided a feeding card, and that the feeding card showed just how few meals the animal had had in his care? Why don't YOU scan that bad boy in and post it here? Come to think of it, didn't your partner take a look at the feeding card before he laid down $2500 on the animal? If the feeding card shows a history of poor feeding, and if it was made available at the time of sale, then taking on a poor feeding animal was something the buyer could have avoided. Anyway, show us the card, and this question might be closer to getting answered.


6) We've established your excellent reputation, with that said, why did you choose to bring such a young baby to be sold at the show?

I did read the thread, but it was much earlier, and it is a long thread. I have one question: Are the two of you in agreement as to the age of the animal? If not, what proof of age does each side have? IIRC, it takes hatchling balls about three or four weeks before taking their first meal. You stated already (again, IIRC) that you had a feeding card showing the animal had been fed only once a month. So, how many feedings? Assuming the snake was a month or so old to get the first meal, and assuming that there was at least a second meal to establish the "once a month" trend, then the snake was at least two months old by that account, which isn't quite fresh out of the egg.

This last point, of the albino's age, seems to be the only major complaint of interest. The question of whether NERD sells well-established ball pythons or not is of interest.

Anyway, this has been an attempt to take a logical look at the situation, and offer up some ideas, so I hope you take it in the spirit intended, Adam, and I'm very sorry for the loss of the snake.

re: The feed card. I read back and it looks like the feed card referred to was the one for the two year old snake mentioned. In that case, the feed card would be a good thing to have scanned in regards to that issue.

Disregard my responses to questions 5 and 6. The question here is, why wasn't a feed card provided for the albino? Had the snake fed at that point? That seems to be a good question to ask.

Sorry about the confusion, that's what I get for trying to remember something from such a long thread at such a late hour.

Adam,

Unless the person that has the supposed 2 year old that weighed that little p[ost here there is no need to post any of the information about it. You have NO PROOF. To be honest, you have shown no proof of anything in this thread. As I have said before it is sad that the snake perished but there is no responsibility on Kevin or NERD's part. To answer the thread. The route you should go is no where. The animal died, it is not Kevin's fault, it can't be proven it is your fault, so it just happened. Just let it be done and move on with your other animals and buisness.

Hey... finally someone I know personally and have purchased from although I doubt he realizes it...

I have to say, in terms of credibility both because of the position an individual enjoys as well as their general attitude, I'd have to side with Kevin if he says that there is no pattern of genetic problems and that the albino in question was well fed and hydrated.

I say this for a few reasons...

• It's firsthand information, Kevin actually possessed the animal during the transit period, Adam is relying on second hand information from someone who has not yet posted themselves as to how the sale went.
• I've been to Kevin's facility up in New Hampshire quite a few times, outside of Kevin running around making people hold tarantulas- the place is immaculate, the animals some of the best I have ever seen
• Kevin didn't get where he is today by lying and he has a lot further to fall if he started now.
• Adam's timeline was incomplete.
• Adam's comments have shifted back and forth between "I just want to see if it's a genetic problem and warn people." to "I deserve a 35% refund." and back.
• Adam's information on how the purchase occurred is far more subjective since he wasn't there and is relying on the information of another individual.
• I have seen Kevin provide water for his animals in the show that's held in New Hampshire as well as the one Shawn runs down in Rhode Island, if he does it on short two-three hour trips, why wouldn't he do so at Daytona? Conjecture on my part I admit but it establishes pattern.
• Adam has stated he has evidence which he has totally failed to provide... "I have receipts, I have a necropsy report" and so on but none of it has been shown to even exist much less prove anything.
• I have never personally seen a skinny Ball Python anywhere on NERD's tables, up in new Hampshire or even so much as within ten feet of Kevin.

I also have to say that this quote...

Is hilarious, especially coming from Adam. Those who know or have even so much as met Kevin know what I mean by that, the thought of him as an angry hothead doesn't sit right with his every action, mannerism, attitude and even physical appearance (although he is a pretty big guy).

I wouldn't ever call someone "Beyond reproach" when it comes to being honest about a business transaction, because mistakes can happen but...

Kevin is relating firsthand information and has a very solid track record on the quality of his animals, the lengths he goes to for customer service and the manner in which he handles complaints (although he is usually a bit of a stickler with his agreed to policies, he can't be blamed for sticking to his contractual agreement)...

Adam is relating secondhand information given to him by someone who hasn't even posted for themselves, deliberately avoided giving the name of the animal's producer because he KNOWS that his accusations would be ludicrous, alluded to proof that doesn't seem to actually exist, or it would have been posted by now and doesn't exactly have a reputation for being a level headed and rational individual. Adam even went out of his way to downplay the reputation of the unnamed breeder by mentioning that they produced very few albinos this year which, true or not, is enormously misleading.

I don't think that, worded the way it was, this thread ever had the less aggressive intentions of educating the public or even in passively gathering information on the case histories of albino ball pythons, if it had, it wouldn't have even ended up in the GBD forum, it would have been in the ball python health forum and it simply would have asked for information about the condition and if anyone had experienced it before, he could have then e-mailed or PMed anyone who replied that they had a similar case occur to get the information about who bred it. Quiet, passive, honest. This thread was nothing more than Adam looking for a refund and trying to pressure the seller into giving him one.

One other thing... Adam, how old are you exactly? Because, if I recall the single phone conversation you and I had, you are quite young, in your early to mid twenties... yet on this thread you state that you had twenty three years of experience breeding and keeping herps... While it may technically qualify if you catch salamanders in your backyard at three years old, or your parents owned 'em... it doesn't count towards any quality experience you may have, I get the feeling the number is closer to seven or eight years of actual responsibility for the animals in your care but feel free to correct me with stories about breeding indigos when you were six.

Just for the record...
 

Since some people are alluding to Adam's refusing to name the other party in this issue as being of nefarious design, I think it is time for me to make a comment here.

Adam called me on the phone about this issue before posting it, requesting my opinion on how to approach it publicly. It was MY opinion that it was far too premature to call someone to the mat with the evidence at hand at that point. My recommendation was to post a general request for supporting evidence of what Adam saw as the possibility of a genetic flaw in a group of animals. Although this original posting was not appropriate for the BOI because of it's non specific nature concerning the source of the animal(s), it was felt that there was a great likelihood that it could very quickly become a BOI issue. Adam's concern was that in any other forum it would not get the exposure and attention he felt it deserved. It was MY decision to allow it to be initially posted in the BOI.

So for those people assuming that the approach taken by Adam was inappropriate, you are judging from hindsight. When this issue was brought up, the approach used by Adam was considered by him and myself as the most REASONABLE manner in order to bring something like this up without naming names and perhaps unfairly calling someone's ethics into question.

I just think I needed to clear the air about this as the perceived intent of his thread is starting to drift off into an unpleasant direction.

But... can you honestly say that he maintained that reasonable "information gathering" attitude throughout the thread?

Heck, can you say he maintained a reasonable and appropriate attitude, that the two of you apparantly discussed for even the first three pages?

Or will you concede that it was quickly turned into a self serving diatribe about the fact he felt he was due some form of compensation that was not forthcoming?

Your suggestion or not... Webslave... his motives are a seperate and distinct issue.

Kevin - his reputation speaks for itself.

With that in mind.... If Adam can prove that a good number of ball pythons have died after being purchased from Nerd... Well then let the cards fall where they may.

What I would like to know is how Adam got the ball python. Was it being driven around in some truck for three days? It seems I either missed it...or it was purposely left out.

At first I saw this thread as info gathering. (it was being done right and I was impressed.
Then...it was also started putting confusion in my mind. ie the timeline of when it was born, bought, fed, shipped, etc (was this confusion done on purpose I do not know)
Then it went from...."I just want to gather info - to I just want 65% and back and forth and so on."

What happened in detail from the time it was bought? was the friend driving cross country?
Did he feed it or give it water? (there is about three days of "delivery" that is unaccounted for.

Clarifications needed
 

In my very brief earlier post I made a comment about bloodline. I was not referring to NERD. One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind through this whole discussion however has eluded this topic. EVERY albino ball python that started the bloodlines in all US collections were origionaly imported or directly from animals that were. It is very early in the developement of this mutation in most cases, to see clearly any inherant genetic weakness' or tendencies towards health or physiological problems.

Comments made concerning hets purchased from the same line that are doing well are in truth, pretty much irrelevant. Hets would be outbred and tend to have much stronger genetic predisposition to normality than would an albino.

To David Jobes, I am not trying to be a jerk here, but feel that your long post was nearly a commerical endorsement and really has no place in this thread. I also find it funny that you left off your list breeders like Mark Bell/Reptile Industries who consistently outproduce nearly everyone that you listed on most mutations. Mark has produced more ghost and pastel babies than anyone the past couple seasons as well as producing carmels, pieds, albinos and hets as well as the first Pastel Ghost ball. That is just one example. Jamie Quick produces tons of albinos and hets each year. Pete Kahl certainly is someone worth mentioning. Three other I can think of produced large numbers of albinos this season. Give credit where credit is due. Some of the people you list are very small producers. BHB and RDR belong right up there behind Kevin as they produce hundreds of balls each season as well.

Evan Stahl

Adam - I've been reading this thread off and on, and figure I had to say this: There is no life-long guarantee on any animal.

Several times in the past I've sold what to me, are outwardly healthy animals. They were eating for me, gaining weight, no visible abnormalities, etc.
Animals I would stake my reputation on as I produced them myself, and had them in my possession from birth until they were sold.

Yet even with all my care, the care of the individual purchasing the animal, the animal still fails to make it to adulthood.

By the rules of nature, there are certain animals that just weren't meant to make it to maturity.

Which brings us to Kevin and the albino ball. I've checked out NERD's animals at several shows, and they really do keep on top of the care of their animals. When you have been a vendor at what seems like too many :) shows a year, you tend to notice who, and who doesn't, take care of their animals. My opinion of NERD is they do a great job !

So what reparations does this situation warrant ?
Well in my eyes NERD is not liable for the death of this animal.
I think they sold an animal that was outwardly healthy (thus it being purchased), and the animal survived long enough to satisfy their warranty.
With this being said, many dealers will go the extra mile to make it up to a customer. I know I do. There are several ways to make up a high-end casualty. You can either send them a new one (the easy solution, though not often done) or you can work out a deal for other animals with them at reduced pricing.

It seems Kevin was willing to go this route until he felt your questions had become accusations about his bloodline. Nobody who has worked their tail off in this hobby wants to hear someone state they may be selling defective animals.

My take-home message on this situation, well it really is too bad the animal did not thrive for you Adam, but the facts are I do not feel NERD is obligated to pay back (or make reparations for) a single cent.. Sometimes you just have to face up to losses in this hobby and move on. It may make you leery of dealing with a particular person (as this will be a purchase you'll certainly never forget), but it can also be a learning tool. Breeding reptiles is a challenging hobby, and that's why it is so fascinating to pursue..

Thanks, Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes

Let
 

I must say this has been a very educating experiance for me. In my first post right from the start I said:

I spoke with Rich before hand just to make sure he wouldn't have an issue with this if it got to be a hot topic. I also told him what I thought I should to in an attempt to be sure I was going at it with a clear head.

I never said it was a genetic issue, I never said it wasn't. I never said it was an issue on Kevin's side or on mine. I did however feel that based on the information I had it was something that should be looked further into.

All of these posts are so far off the topic or point of this post that it's not worth putting any more time into.

I've heard many strories about Kevin, from mine to people buying $25,000 spiders from him with a promise he wouldn't lower the price on them only to end up doing so and blowing up on the person when he calls Kevin on it. To people calling asking to buy animals from him for him to say he doesn't have them and then the next day sell a pair to the guys partner. Now these are rumors and things I wanted to find out first hand from Kevin. In speaking with him I felt he talked to me in a manner that reflected the above actions could be possible.

With this information in mind I wanted to ask if anybody else had these troubles. The answer so far has been no making the first portion of the above quote the one that applies.

I've also seen that many people in here seem to know what Kevin is thinking and are speaking for or protecting him from answering the questions.

I know for fact why he won't come here and answer these questions but I don't have any issue keeping that between myself and Kevin.

His lack of responce to any further postings is all that I needed. I will gather the information I have and start a post based on that if I feel it is warrented and I think this one can and should be placed in the GBD area.

Thanks a lot for all of your posts and although 1 page should have been more then enough based on what I'd asked I'm sorry it's become a 10 page long event.

Adam Block

That just posted itself.

My closing thoughts were let's consider this issue closed!

You're all assuming things. My intentions, Kevins, other people and that is going no place. Kevin is here, I am here and there is no reason to assume either of our intentions.

A far more constructive course of action would have been to play neutral and ask for both parties to provide information and stat the facts. Each story has two side but the consensise seem only one should be probed as the others reputation speaks for itself.

Adam Block

My reason for not replying to you here...
 

Adam you suffer from several major flaws.

- You are incapable of telling the entire truth regarding this event.
- I have a business to run and many animals to care for.
- This is the only place that will have you.
- You are incapable at facing that you may have been the only one at fault here.
- You NEED this, you have nothing to offer and more importantly your claim to fame is all negative. You are not an accomplished breeder and seem only to inflate your capacity.
- Your latest attempt regarding the Spider ball price drop is incredible. Where do you come up with these things?
- As you stated you are not a breeder and have nothing to lose, only I have much to lose because of the "way I handle things." Why tell me that you are a great breeder and then tell me you don't breed anything anymore? This is just the slightest in examples of your lies.

Frankly the point here is moot. I'm sure anything I add to this will be twisted even more...you have made up your mind on how I handle things largely based on rumor, proving you do not know me very well at all.

You are endless in your shortcomings and I am sure you have more to prove, don't you?

In the mean time, like I said before, I have a business to run and many animals to care for.

Kevin McCurley NERD

it seems this question is overlooked or is purposely being avoided. You brought the accusations.....so go ahead and post your facts. Like I said before....if you can prove that a great many number of his ball pythons die....then so be it.


We know what your basic objective was.....if your basic objective is as you said it was....then why the mention of blame and 65% refund?


I was all for discovering what is up....I was formulating ways to find out other peoples experiences.....did their pytho die after a couple months? etc etc. then you started talking about refunds and blame...then went back and forth. then we (I) ask a question and you completely ignore it.....only to say that everyone's post is totally way of topic. My question is not way off topic. as a matter of fact....you were talking blame and other things. If you want to talk about blame.....then answer the question. Who had care of the python from the day it was bought until it got to you? How was it delivered to you? Was it being driven around in some truck in a little tuperware for three days without water?

what about this "other" person who bought a python and it died after a couple months.....where is this person?
What about the person who had a 1-2 year old animal that only weighed 200+ grams......where is this person? by the way.......exactly how smart is this person to buy a 1-2 year old animal that only weighed 282 grams?

You say we should not "grill" you and that we should grill Kevin. well if Kevin's story was not straight.....Trust me I would be grilling him. I have no problems grilling anyone. the reasons these questions are being put to you is because your story seems to be missing some very important parts.

Let's also not forget that the burden of proof lies with the accuser. So, get to proving.

Adam,

Your a real piece of work. Now your trying to make it sound like there is something wrong with Kevin not posting anything else. Hell you have not shown, proven anything and to me and probably many else on here would be and are a waste of Kevin's time to even respond to your accusations. I would not have wasted my time with you if I had been him either. I would highly suggest that next time you want to present a case like you tried here that you do your homework first and present proof (if there is any unlike this thread) You have wasted Kevin's time, have burned a bridge with one of the most well respected breeder/dealers in the industry and shown us how you really are once again. You spout off that he will not respond to your questions but have you answered the questions put to you?? NO YOU HAVE NOT Again I will suggest that you use this entire situation as a learning tool in many aspects from the animal perishing from gout for an unknown reason to your way of making statements without FACTS. Your latest pitiful tries at making Kevin look bad are ridiculous. Those accusations (Whether true or not) were uncalled for and were and are not proven. Once again you can not provide proof but rather stories that can not be substantiated. All this has done is show everyone what kind of person you really are. Thanks for ensuring that some will never do buisness with you in the future.

As I thought Kevin hasn't addressed any of my questions when that in fact is all they are, I’m not pointing the finger at his stock or care. It's easy to skirt things when the public is on your side. Nobody has asked you to account for what you have done and because of this it’s very easy to sweep under the carpet

I once called Rich because I'd heard things about him I didn't like and felt the right thing to do would be to confront him about them. I called and he shocked the hell out of me when he admitted them. Kevin, the way to address rumors is to address them by either admitting or denying them. You've done neither and avoidance is no resolution.

You want to attack me, that's fine with me. I feel you are at least 35% at fault in the snake’s death and 100% at fault for selling an animal too young without mentioning it. So young I doubt many other non-money motivated breeders would do so in good faith. Those are however your ethics and not mine. I don't have to walk a mile in your shoes and that fact that you do is good enough for me.

As for the trip, the snake was without water from the time of purchase to the time it got to AZ, remember my partner is a truck driver and did drive straight through (24-36 hours).

There are faults on my end, trusting a big name breeder to sell accurately represented animals. Not asking for something in writing because of the persons reputation. Assuming a big name breeder provides big time customer service. I know when I attack people the way Kevin did me just now. The way he brings up my partner is a truck driver and says I'll just leave it at that. I know that when I do this it's because I am wrong, when I'm wrong I avoid those questions just as Kevin has.

So I will do this. I will leave this post to die, I will collect the information that I have and get it scanned. When I'm finish I will post this information and let it speak for itself.

Hey Kevin, ever figure out what makes those Coral Glows? God those are great looking snakes! I bet you'd pay a big junk of change to know who the dad was! From one breeder to another, shhhhhhh (In a whisper) record keeping is the key my friend.

Adam Block

Proof would be used in an accusition. In this case I'd accused Kevin of nothing. I was asking for others who've had the same thing happen. My first post is clear in the direction I wanted this post to go. Now that Kevin is here there is no reason to assume. If he didn't want to follow through with questions and clear this up why post?

Adam Block

Heck if I know. Maybe because he's not the one who has to prove anything. Maybe because the tone of your most recent posts were stooping to personal attacks and didn't have anything material to say about the subject at hand.

Are you seriously telling me that your post with the questions doesn't carry an accusatory tone? It sure looks that way, regardless of your intent. You can't fall back on your first post in the thread to show your intent at this point, that tactic is getting old. No, you opened several cans of worms questioning Kevin's integrity, so I think the burden of proof lies with you.

And now for something completely different...
 

I speak for Kevin, myself, and the rest of the NERD gang when I tell you that we know EXACTLY what made the Coral Glows. They are perfectly exquisite snakes - glad that even you were able to see the beauty in them Adam. Snakes like the Coral Glows are a big reason why we spend so much time working instead of posting all over the Board of Inquiry. We know exactly who both Mom & Dad are (which is a big reason we haven't let the secret out yet) and eagerly anticipate what they'll be producing for us again in 2003. Think Adam, if we didn't keep some sort of record of what we produce, how on earth would Kevin be able to accomplish all he has?

And that's all I have to say about that. :D




Kara - NERD

Now... I'm hardly a bigtime or high profile purchaser but I have bought a few animals from NERD in the past... and I did just make a few calls to some friends back east who I know have as well and...

I can't recall ever being given specific feeding records with any purchases and neither have any of the people I contacted when this occured to me...

I was told animals were feeding... and when the last feeding was... and the word of Kevin or the NERD crew was always trustworthy so I never requested more specific notation on what was fed when...

So I ask now... has anyone other than Adam gotten an animal with specific feeding records from NERD?

What's the likelyhood that Adam got the records for the other albino that was purchased confused with the records for the ball from NERD?

The animal itself is very distinct but the record might not include a picture... this would explain Adam's confusion about the age and weight of the animals and the claims that it hadn't fed well... I have never personally known NERD to sell an animal that was less than 100%, even going to far as to refuse an offer on an animal they had picked up at a show because they were unwilling to offer a guarantee on the outwardly healthy animal (GTP) because it had not been verified and quarantined, even when offered double their purchase price.

And Adam, I asked how old you were awhile back, because you were claiming twenty three years of experience, that was never answered, please just take ten seconds to put down a number.

The questions that Ritchie raised were important to the issue as well... Please answer them as you have been directed to several times.

On may 30 2002 I bought 1.1 cb 00 het orange ghost ball pythons from NERD. The snakes arrived and were a little small, I weighed them and the male was 282 grams, the female was about ten grams heavier. The female died the first week of Aug. so I no longer have the feed card. I did not call kevin and let him know! I did not take her to a vet and do a necropsy!! I just figured that **** happens and wrote the whole thing off. I currently keep just shy of 100 ball pythons so I am not new to taking care of snakes and have done so for many years. My partner was talking to Adam about ball pythons and mentioned or loss. I was not going to post here but since I have been brought into this I felt that I should respond. I have enclosed a copy of the feed card and invoice of purchase. These animals were bought over the phone. When I asked for weight of the snakes before purchase I was told that they did not know and was given what was thought to be there length. On the feed card there is the weight on 6/5/02 of 282grams, also it shows my feedings from 5/31/02 but the card starts showing feedings of 10/7 01 and nothing before so I figure that there was a card before this one since we are missing a year. But there was one feeding on 10/07/01, 10/24/01, 11/16/01, 12/13/01, 1/03/02, 1/15/02, 1/21/02, 1/31/02, 2/11/02, 3/11/02, 3/22/02, 3/27/02, 4/10/02, 5/07/02, 5/19/02 these were the feeding on the card at purchase. Thats 15 feedings in 8 months. I have 41 feedings in 8 months. NERD has some the the coolest looking ball pythons no one can argue that. I do not know anything about genetic deffects and have not said otherwise. I did recieve ball pythons from NERD, they were not feed the way I would have feed them.


Rusty Davis

This should be the Invoice for 1.1 cb 00 het ghost ball pythons.

Rusty Davis

Shucks, ya all.
 

I'm still waitng for anyone to answer my simple question.

When it is no longer the responsibility of the breeder and when does it becomes the new owners responsibility?

Once the agreed upon guarantee has expired, another week, 2 weeks, month, 6 months after that period of time. Buyers have to start taking responsbility for the care of their animals eventualy.

Based on this article, it opens up several questions that I as a seller would ask long before I would look at genetics as the cause. Especially if I have never had an accusation like my animals are genetically inferior because it died 2 months after the sale in several other peoples care.

And Adam, where did your vet find the crystals. Or is she just telling you she found a high level of uric acid in the blood stream? Hence, causing her to diagnose gout as the cause of death.

mine is on my terms page. Three days (minimum). I can extend it if I feel like it. In fact. I have extended it to a month to friends and people who were realy nice. ( I have this terrible weakness towards nice people) anyway...over a month is a waste of my time.

But on the other hand. If someone can prove that A majority of my snakes die within 2 months or so......then I can be responsible. If we can prove that it is genetics or something in my collection....then yeah I have to take responsibility. But if only two people out of hundreds and hundreds complain.....then I say the big F you. (luckily I have not had one yet)

You know Adam, after reading your last couple posts, the reason this is a 10+ page thread and not 1 page is due to how many conflicting and varying statements you have made. I was not going to take sides. Things die. That is life. Here are the reasons that you are in the wrong. As for you Kevin, you don't need to get so excited about this crap either. The statements made speak for themselves. I have no clue why you would be so insecure of your own collection and abilities. You are better than that. I don't side with anyone for any reason other than what I feel is right. Evan Stahl

1) I would not even have a conversation over warranty/guarantee of an animal with somebody that did not buy it from me in the first place.

2) No breeder on Earth gives more than 30 days guarantee on an animal!

3)No breeder on Earth would have a conversation with you on this topic when you waiting this long to address it. It was too late then, in my opinion, but why wouldn't you have called Kevin when it puked? When it died? Why wait all this time? It has been 6 months since your partner bought it!

4) You try to represent yourself as selfless, just posting to see if others had this problem, but then you attack everybody and make constant insinuations to the contrary.

This is a simple situation that comes up all the time in this business, so why is it that both of you, who have been in this business for some time and dealt with so many animals are so damn inept at dealing with this here and now? Adam, if you are going to be insulting and attack then do it. If you are going to be cool about it and just try to gather intell than do that. You CAN'T do both at the same time.

Evan Stahl

This is all I have to say
 

First Adam sorry for your loss.


But animals die all the time. Even high end this is the reason that everyone and thier breother are not breeding them.

Second if this aniaml died before Christmas, Why are you bring it up now?

If you chalked it up to a loss then why are you asking NERD to take some responsibilty?

Also Adam you are not the only person in the World that has lost a High end animal for an unknown reason. Sometimes it happens and then we just try to find out why. And try to make sure it doesn't happen again. 99.9% of the people that lose an animal 2+ months down the road don't go calling accusing everyone else. That is something a child does, not grown Adults.

Also you say your friend had the snake in the truck for 24 to 36 hours with no water. And sense you believe NERD didn't water thier animals. Then I would say you should not have bought the animal.

You say your friend has good knowledge of reptiles. If this is so then he should know what a newlly hatched ball looks like verses one that is a few months old.

I also have a question on the snakes feeding.

You said it lived for about 2 months in your care before it died?

[quote]8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition.
Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy.

10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead. [quote]

<b>So you recieved the aniaml on 8/5 and died on 10/2.</b>
So you had the animal for about 8 weeks.And i want ot make sure I have this right. <b>In 8 weeks you only fed this animal 6 times and when it puked it looked that way in the Picture? RIGHT?</b>


This is what I am not understanding. If it was eatting so well at first. Why do it look so small?

Thank you for your time in answer my questoins.

Blind eyes....
 

Very odd, Even says this looks like an animal know to have genetic troubles then he doesn't mention that again. We now have proof NERD feeds his high dollar snakes every 2-3 maybe 4 weeks. Something I feel is underfeeding and far from what's needed for a growing young snake.

Kevin won't respond to much of anything and nothing first hand. Everything is through somebody else. Seamus is trying to talk about NERD not supplying feed cards yet we now have one here.

Kevin says nothing in his terms about this. If he’d addressed it in his term it would be one thing. However, I’m not saying I need him to replace the snake as he told me from the start he wouldn’t. I’m trying to see if in fact there is more of a pattern then myself and Rusty. Also, now with these two animals it makes me think Will Slough may have been in the right. I don’t know but we have three adult breeders here saying things and Kevin saying we’re all wrong.

If you care to read that it’s at:

http://forum.kingsnake.com/ball/messages/51289.html

Either way, the questions I have will stay avoided, as the answers won’t add up.

Adam Block

Ok I see the invoice is from NERD, but who is to say that the feed card is from Nerd? There is nothing on it refelecting this that I can see. So how is that proof unless Kevin states that is his feed chart and that he did send one.

All I read was someone was complaining about a "price drop" wow you proved your point. If I had spider balls.....I would set my prices at whatever price I deem necessary. And people can post away and complain about my "price drop" if they want.

One the trait is not recessive as far as I know.
Two he can set prices to whatever he wants.
Three people can cry about the prices all they want.
Four he had other animals selling at even higher prices....so to me he temporarily sold this one cheaper....he was having a sale? he needed money? who knows. ( I have sold "ugly" animals at way way lower prices than the rest of my collection.)


I have acquired animals that were being sold for 1250
and within months I saw the price drop to only 750
But I will not cry and post about it.
I will also CERTAINLY NOT link to someone else's crying about it.
Last year I saw albino boas being sold for 700 which is about half price (54% drop)......I did not see anyone complain. Actually I saw a couple breeders complain....but that was it.
So Kevin drops the price 30% and someone posts about it and you link to it to prove what again?

Your posts just shows a breeder complaining about his competition dropping prices........so what does your link prove again? maybe I just missed it.

Funny you mention it. Because that is exactly what your first POSTS were all about. an animal you did not buy yourself. In fact it took how many pages just to get the other buyer to post?

But I have to be fair.... so here goes.
If Kevin really sold an unhealthy snake.....then shame shame on him to high heaven.
Oh the other hand....as soon as the customer with the 282 gram 2 year old snake received the package, opened it, and saw an unhealthy snake.....why in the world did he not return it?

I better buy a snake from him now before he changes his terms page. That way whe it dies 10 years down the road I can complain. (little sarcasm....sorry)

Actually I have had a couple stubborn feeders who have eaten less. But I made sure the owner knew everything.

Adam, the link to Will's forum outburst actually does nothing to support your case. What it does show is that Will Slough was upset that the price of hatchling spider balls dropped from one year to the next. Well, that's typically the way the market works. It's not often that a relatively new morph holds the same market value from one year to the next.

Feed card-
I have to be fair and address teh issue of the feed card.

I do not know if the feed card is from nerd.

But I can at least tell that the hadwriting of the first set of numbers do differ from the second set of numbers.

sorry so many responces.....trying to play Devil's advocate and get to the truth no matter who "wins" or "loses"

Okay what about the statement on the genetic issue....
I did not know that a certain look on the albino consituted a much less desirable gene(weaker gene) Can you elaborate? I would certainly like to learn more. Is the faded albino gene a less "healthier" gene than the high contrast? or vice versa?

It's easy to tell from all the questions you're asking Kevin to answer. Playing devil's advocate means looking at the side that others aren't. Why don't you stop assuming everything I've posted is wrong and address if in fact it is true and ask Kevin a few questions. You see a feed card from Kevin and you assume it's not from NERD? Why don't you address if in fact it is and Kevin does go a month without feeding his snakes! That's absurd!!!

Adam Block

Adam, my confusion came from a simple flaw in your argument. This board is about posting facts and you did not post the main fact that this board is for, the name of the dealer/breeder the animal came from. Now that I know who it came from I know that my comment does not apply to this animal. Simple. If you actually dealt in facts instead of crap I would not have even said that. How about you respond to the pile of valid points that I made instead of splitting hairs like a sleazy attorney. Evan Stahl

I think Adam clarified that the 8/02 hatch and show was 8th month, 02 YEAR and then he got the snake 3 days later and confused year for day in the 8/05 post, meaning 3 days later he had it in hand. So thats like around 8/20/02-8/21/02 since the show was 8/17/02- 8/18/02.

No one still has answered: How old was this snake when taken 1200 miles, spent two days on display at a show and then taken 2000 miles????

This tiptoes around it but does not answer it Can we have a hatch date?

Was this a two month old snake or a few days old? Only the breeder can answer that for sure and THAT is a factor to me, and probably was to the baby snake! The only reason I can see for avoiding answering it is IT WAS TOO YOUNG and SOMEONE knows that was not right!

Please, a hatch date and what age was the buyer told?

Necropsy report
 

Adam,

I and others are still waiting to see the Necropsy report as well. Please post it so we can see the diagnosis ourselves.

fine I will play.
Kevin...did it really take you a month to feed that snake?
Why?
Was there a reason?
Did you forget to just enter in a date?
Or do you just routinely not feed for a month?



Adam....tell me again why it was you posted Will's arguement about prices? What does it prove? Or is that a hint of you wanting to compain about other people's prices................AGAIN
Okay...so who brought it to your attention? Did your partener or did Kevin?
Because if your partner brought it up.....then he knew the snake was just a few days old. Kevin in my opinion is wrong for selling a snake that is to young. Your friend is dumb for buying a snake that is to young then crying about it. Personally...before buying a baby snake...I like to ask when it was born.....how many times it has eaten....and how many times it has shed. I do not have the experience that you and your friend have as you stated. But I am usually smart enough to ask the necessary questions to make an inteligent purchase.

Kevin is wrong if he really sold an unhealthy het for ghost or whatever. But the guy is also dumb for not returning it. (just an opinion) If I do not like something....I return it.

Okay...in Kevin's defense. Maybe he has sold a ton of young snakes and only this one or two perished.

In the other people defense..........Maybe they knowingly bought a too young snake or knowingly accepted a too unhealthy snake because..................wait...I can't think of a defense

These were taken from the same paragraph. I see insinuations and allegations.....anyone else see it? And how did you come to find out the animal died of a genetic issue? Did you do a genetic study? I did not know they did DNA studies on gout

24 hours is a day...36 hours straight through is a day and a half. You did not recieve the snake until three days later. What did you guys do on the other day and a half?

So your intention is not to get a refund? What was that about a 65-35 split?
So your intention is to just gather facts? and not insinuate?
What was that about your reptile dying of genetics......also it has been four months and you have only gotten a hold of one other "breeder" who accepted an animal the he thought was unhealthy and failed to return said animal. It has been about six months since the your animal was purchased.............geez

Please tell me that was a typo and not you trying to be mr sheep dog feeding false information to us sheep.

I've just gotten done looking at ten pages of posts. I have yet to see where I've said the snake died of a genetic issue? It died of gout, the cause of that is unknown unless you know something I don't.

At the show, there were roughly 60 snakes bought from:

B.H.B.
Pro Exotics
Dragon Herp
Peter Kahl
Rich Ihle
Ben Siegel
And a few others.

You won't find me saying nothing but GREAT THINGS about all of their animals. The purchase from NERD was small and if I were going to pick one to complain about for any other reason then there was truly an issue it wouldn't have been NERD.

Kevin is the only person with these rumors floating around and he is the only one who can but for whatever reason won't dismiss them. I think the reason is that he knows what will happen if he goes on record saying much of anything there is proof of that shows something else.

Either way, I don't care one way or the other. Kevin doesn't like the way this post is going and won't address the questions in here. It's enough for me and Kevin to know why and leave it at that for me.

With regard to Will Slough. It's my understanding when he bought the snake Kevin told him he would not drop the price. Many times the good breeder who set the market on a snake will let his customers recoup their money and let them set the price drops.

Much the reason Rainwater got so much crap for dropping the market from $10k to $5k on the albino geckos. Kevin’s reason for doing this when he told Will he wouldn't?


My question is that if Kevin is motivated to do things based on money are you saying he isn't willing to sell a 2-week-old snake before it should be sold because he needs money?

Kevin said the snake was eating great and in good health. I don't see who based on Kevin’s words he can say the snake was eating great as it wasn't old enough to establish that.

Kevin will not give a date of birth on that clutch even though he keeps such good records. If you want to know why it's because he know it will make him look bad if he does and if he lies he knows I can prove it:)

Adam Block

Adam, you did say that in your very first post, I did not understand it at the time and thought you either mistyped something or I also thought you were leaning toward it being a possbile genetic issue without knowing about the info on gout killing young snakes that are stressed and not hydrated or in proper temps.

I am not saying that was the case with this snake, its just common sense with the age and knowing what it is like to pack for and attend shows.