LAY BIN FOR DRAGONS. PLUS A BOUNS! Dragons laying, babies hatching GOOD stuff here
 

I have been having a high volume of e-mails about "lay bins" what should i put her in? how big of a lay bin? should i put a lay bin in the cage? what kind of soil? sand, vermiculite any thing else? how much depth (of soil) does she need?

So i was going to put up a few pictures of a lay bin and how i have mine setup. And as i was doing so i had a hypo het trans female that was ready to lay. So i have some extra pics for you!!:D

As you can see from the pictures on how much soil i use and high deep it is and what kinda lay bin setup i have. Also i keep the soil on a slant. it has work best for me is i do it this way. 75% or more of the time the female digs right into the slanted area. ( the soil i use is the expandable forest bedding or exo-earth.. No i dont like sand. it will scratch up the females snout, forearms, and feet. i have personally done it. its just like sand paper this stuff is much more forgivable) The soil is not soaking wet... Its between damp and wet. (if that makes sense) no water should be dripping from your hand when you have a hand full. Even if you give it alittle squeeze. NO dripping water Two things that are not pictured that are important. There is a heat pad kept on the bottom of the lay bin. this keeps and warm and produces humidity. which brings in the other part. when your dragon is not in the lay bin you should keep the regular normal lid (no holes with secure latch) on the top to keep the moisture in. It works great. And when you start seeing dry soil on the top add very little water and mix the bottom really well with the soil on top.

More pics
 

Here the female is done and packing here nest.. I pull out EVERY female when there done laying and put them in a tub of water.. the get to re-hydrate and take a bath. as she is doing that i am trying to remember where she layed her clutch. :shrug01: but i found them and moved them to there container and put them in there incubator.

Yes more pics. i took the time atleast look at them..:)
 

20 fertile eggs..(M) HYPO leatherback X (F) Hypo het translucent.

I stuck her back in her cage with her cage mate for a snack.(super worms) she was only interested in one but it should be offered. And the next three or four days her cage mate pictured should be in the same bin doing the same thing!:D
that cross is a, (M) double het leatherback X (F) hypo -translucent.

For the ones that asked i hoped this helped you. For the ones that already knew hope you found this to be some what interesting.

ANYONE else that has extra info or that would like to add to this thread please do so.

nice and pictures too.
Max

Man I need to meet you. I'll be at havre de grace. Good stuff I'll be ready to breed in 6 months.

Man i tried to hook - up with you at the last show... i have already payed Larry for the next table, I will be setup with my g.f. (if she goes). Come up and hang out...

Thanks Max

Very cool info Tom!

Hey Tom, great pictures man.

One thing I've been wondering that I didn't find in your post (or, maybe I missed it in your post?)... I've read to not "turn" the eggs when moving them from the lay bin to the incubator. Whenever I read that, i'm not which which way of "turning" they are talking about, on a "Y-axis" or "X-axis" type turn?

That is not true...you can move the eggs without worrying if you are just getting them from the lay box into the incubating box. I would only be more careful if some days have elapsed and then you should try to move them according to the way they are laid.. I take mine out pretty much the way they are laid but it's not possible when they are stacked,even some of them on their ends or being scattered about as you dig them up.

I will have to go with Angie. when your pulling them outta the bin after the female layed the eggs you dont have to "dot" the top of the egg.

For instance, your looking for the clutch of eggs and you find them as your putting them in a bin to go into the incubator. You come across a egg that is standing on end! what do you do? I usually lay the end to what ever side it was leaning to when i found it. and if the egg is straight up and down i just pick a side to lay it on.

Once the egg has settled for a few days, def. dont turn it then. i havent turned them before to find out what happens, i have just heard it kills them. So its something i dont mess with to much.

BUT alittle secret. when 60 - 65 days has went by and i am thinking they should be hatching soon. i have done a 15% turn to a egg or two. and sometimes, they have been know to hatch alittle sooner. Also Another little tib bit. When your dragons are kept in a bin (like i keep mine) they start hatching and some people are fast to take them out and put them in there cage. Well if you leave that baby in there for alittle while. it walks on the other eggs. that kinda motivates the others to start moving around and start hatching. so sometimes it can take a entire clutch a week to hatch. but if you leave the hatched baby in the container they can all hatch within 24-48 hrs. I experimented with that 2 years ago. and it seems to work every time. If you dont believe me give it a shot.

:iagree:
If you turn the egg a couple of weeks later it will drown the embryo inside, but right away the only thing inside the egg is goo and veins. I don't now if youo saw a tv program or something were they were collecting alligator eggs but they mark the tops because they don't know how they have been incubating for, but we reptile breeders do know

The t.v. show was "Dirty Jobs". and it was alligator farmers. and they were marking the top of the egg with a bingo stamper thing-e. cant remember what there called.:o my g-mom would be upset!

haha thats what I was think of too I just saw that episode last week!!

I seen it a couple of months ago.

female leather laying
 

So today my female leather het hypo laid her eggs. 16'' long and was at 398 grams before she laid. I use a similar setup to toms but i use a mixture of potting soil to sand 80/20 seems to work great. My female took the lazy route and just picked a corner and just laid a nice 25 - 2 bad ones. But tom has a great method of doing what he does and i always like to hear about different ways to do things. Thanks tom for the extra hints on the lay bins it helped.

Good stuff Paul.:thumbsup:
It maybe not be the lazy route. some dragons i noticed dig and burrow until there comfortable to lay there eggs and some dragons dont need to be hidden in a burrow. they just dig like yours dig and covers the clutch when finished. I tend to like dragons like that. i let them cover there eggs half way and pull them out and put them in the tub. It makes it easier on you when your collecting the eggs. You know exactly where they are and you do have to dig for them.

Any other breeders that got any females in the lay bin??? Love to see some pics:yesnod:

Allen X dachiu laying
 

Thanks Tom!

Here is another way i learned from rob dachiu's site.I made a cage dedicated for a lay bin using the Exo-Earth you had mentioned, i set the substrate up with a hole already started and she started digging in different places till she just decided to lay right on top. Allen X dachiu laying

lol, if i have a cage better believe there would be a dragon living in it before i turn it into a lay bin...

Hey Paul another thing, looking at your soil it looks to be alittle dry. maybe another reason why she dug out the corner instead of a tunnel. it doesnt look like it would hold a tunnel shape without collapsing on her. but i can see the lose soil and it looks to be lighter and dryer. Just a thought.

The soil was packed pretty tight on both post its all loose from when she did her multiple digs but yes it may have been a little dry but it all worked out in the end.

well i had an extra baby cage so i turned it into a lay cage

I love the color eye shadow she is wearing, It brings out her eyes! And that lip gloss very stunning.

Yeah, ain't she a doll... She did it all on her own!
Not really, I start out the tunnel for them.
I get all up in there... But I pack it down while my arm is in there, makes it more solid and less chance of collapsing.

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/DSCN2859.jpg

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/DSCN2857.jpg

Im liking this thread! Ive always used a smaller rubbermaid, w/ it placed inside the cage w/ the females, so that they can go in there when they are ready, With that being said though... Im not to fond of this method either, for the simple fact that sometimes, the females dont always lay in the box.. so then you wind up with some dead eggs, or they lay some in the box and some out. So im moving toward doing something along the lines w/ this. My question is this... w/ some females its hard to see whether or not they are carrying, and hard to feel.. Ive had 2-3 females lay eggs when I couldnt notice any pregnancy at all. So when do you place them in the lay box.. and do you just house them in there and feed or whatever in that box while waiting for them to drop the clutch? And if so, how long have you guys been leaving them in there... it sounds stupid and such, but this method of a lay box is completely different than what im use to.. so there goes! :)

Well Eric most females will not eat from my experience when there getting ready to lay so that's not an issue, When I see A female starting to dig i know its time to get everything ready (lay box,incubator and a tub ready for a bath afterwords) I usually keep her in her lay box till she lays. Hope this helps and if other breeders have other ways I'd like to hear.

eggs Layed
 

Just a picture of the leathers clutch placed in a Rubbermaid container in a bed of moist vermiculite

Ive had a few females.. *not all* that would still eat even a day or two before they lay.. Thats why I was asking about that, but that does make sense. What size container is that, that you are using? 58 qt?

You know what I'm not sure... its a decent size tho

Hey Eric...just thought I'd tell you that I do my nest boxes the same way as you,inside the cage. I almost never have any problem....I can usually tell when they are ready to lay...they seem to become very restless,digging,running around the cage. I put a log or rock next to the laying box so she can climb in it,then I put the dragon in and she will usually dig for a while,then come out,then repeat. But in the end,they seem to remember where the box is and they always use it. That way I don't have to be home when she lays.

Im just hoping it helped who needed it.

Thats why i dont put a smaller lay bin in the cage. It gives them the option to go in and out yes, but what if they lay in the dry sand or crushed wallnut shells??? If you dont catch them in time they ALL dry out and die. so i make the females stay in the bin until there done. Which for me usually isnt to long. but there are some exceptions...

Well from my experience i havent had a dragon NOT show sign of being gravid. Whether its a small or larger female... At first there is usually a heavy pocket in there belly that is firm. then its like little jelly beans in a sack...Other signs may be an increase of appetite. A vigorous appitite. She will eat like she hasnt before. And when it comes time to lay they slow down on eatting.. before there ready to lay they dig in there cage. even if there is no substrate to dig in! OR if the female has a cage mate, she may "run the walls" of the cage desperately trying to find a secluded area to start digging. so there are other signs than feeling there belly... NOT all females stop feeding when they lay... I STRONGLY believe its how far along the female is. For instance, the hypo i used as an example in this thread was ready to lay her clutch but she wasnt in a rush to do it yet. When she went into the lay bin that was the first time she even tried to dig. She was also still feeding.. When a female has held the eggs to long or long enough. they usually dont eat and there frantically looking for a spot to lay.
Yes if you seen my lay bin, i just house them in there until there finished. but usually there never in there past 3 hours. the longest was a female hypo trans and it took her 2 days to get comfortable enough to lay. and i have spoken to some that has waited a week! When there being housed in the bin I offer water thoughout the day. that has been about it. when my girls are in the bins most of the time they refuse food.

Both ideas are fine...it's just what works for you. I've never had a female NOT lay in the box...whether I was home or not. And that's in 15 years....I think that once they know where they are supposed to go,they remember. I think the large lay box is just as effective...I just have never used one.Oh,I wouldn't use crushed walnut as a substrate...don't trust it. Mostly newspaper...sand in a few big cages.

Hey Angie,
I have experienced a couple of problems with the bins in the cage. i have had a girl that was going in and out of the lay box. she was digging and the usual. but when it came time to lay she layed them in the cage substrate. :(.. Next to the lay bin..And because i wasnt home to catch it i lost the whole clutch.:(:(.. The lay bin FOR ME has been a better experience. I pull the girl outta her cage, pop her in a bin and go about my business. i check every so often to see if shes digging than when shes at the bottom i can hear her scratching at the plastic bottom so i know about where she is and then when it gets quite i know she is laying them. and the good thing is, as long as you have the heat pad on the bottom it keeps the eggs warm until i pull them out.

I rarely have a problem too! Most people that have hands on experience can tell you the little things to look for.;)

Angie, any girls laying? Love to see some pictures.

Both ideas are pretty darn good.:thumbsup: Considering one of my e-mails said " I put my female in a shoe box with wet sand.":shrug01: (why i satarted this thread" lol.

They consume it like sand. my only question is, Does it break down and digest? does it stay stored in there stomach? or does it come out in there fecal?

I would agree that the one advantage of the large lay box is that there is no chance of eggs being laid outside of it. I see that it is what most breeders do these days and being that it has 0% risk involved then it is probably a great choice for most people. I just haven't had a problem myself...otherwise i would never risk my beautiful red dragon eggs being laid in such a perilous manner !! The thing about crushed walnut is what I've HEARD...that there have been reported cases of impaction. Curious dragons tend to " taste" whatever is in their cage,and with sand,at least it is something that they would encounter in the wild and a healthy dragon could handle small amounts if ingested...but walnut shell is not naturally occurring ANYWHERE and would probably cause problems .

Oh,and i have not bred anything yet Tom,I still have a group to sell and after many years of breeding I'm in no hurry to get the cycle started again...I'm getting old LOL !!

:rofl: I wholesaled most of my 09 stuff to make room for this years stuff. you have a heck of a jump on me with time with the dragons. but every year i seem to have some kind of anticipation to get started. Always something new to work with. Always looking forward to see what hatches outta my genetically inferior dragons:rofl:

Yeah Tom,your dragons are so inferior and ugly..choke,choke...you know everyone is waiting to see what masterpieces will be produced this year at Baltimore Beardies.

I may try the larger box like Tom uses this next time around, heck never hurts to try different approaches...But of course im STILL trying to build back my stock, and have realized I also am going to have to find more females.. since there were secondary complications after the crash with some of the surviving females.. ugh.. anyhow... Im really diggin this thread... ALL puns intended lmfao