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Hay's Haven
WARNING TO ALL REPTILE BUYERS...............
THIS GUY SOLD ME SICK GECKOS. THE DISEASE IS NOT LIMITED TO GECKOS ONLY THOU. BEWARE ON BUY FROM HIM. HE HAS REFUSED TO MAKE GOOD ON THE SALE. THIS IS THE FIRST BAD DEAL I HAVE HAD IN OVER 10 YEARS IN DEALING WITH HERPS. BUT THIS GUY IS A BAD ONE. THE SICK ALBINO LEOPARD GECKOS HE SOLD ME ALSO CAUSE MY FAT TAIL GECOKS TO DIE TO. THIS WAS VERIFIED BY A LOCAL VET. SO I RECOMMEND NOT TO BUY ANYTHING FROM HAY'S HAVEN OR JASON HAYS. IF YOU DO IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK. GARY BOLTON |
Sorry for the loss of your animals, Gary :(
Will you please provide as many details as you can, i.e., the date you recieved the sick animals, when you notified the seller, when the animals went to the vet, etc.? Thanks, and good luck with your remaining animals. |
Gary bought 8 leopard geckos from me on 8/24/2002. Approximately a week later he called saying that the 3 albinos were sick. He also stated that he had bought some baby fattails from another breeder before he got mine and they had died right after mine arrived. Keep in mind that at this time the ones he had bought from me were still alive. He got a refund or replacement from the other breeder. Which in my mind would say that he had also blamed them for the death of his lizards. We contacted eachother a few times over the next week or so. During this time he changed the vets diagnosis a number of times, along with the number of my leos that he had lost. Originally there was 1 dead, 1 sick, 1 OK. It changed next to 2 dead, 1 OK. Then all 3 were supposedly dead. Next thing you know there was only 1 that had died. To this day I still don't know for sure how many if any died. After talking to 2 other breeders (That have asked to not be mentioned) who have had bad experiences dealing with Gary Bolton. I talked it over with my wife and we decided that not to send him the gecko. I understand the risk that I'm taking by not sending him the gecko. But I honestly believe that my geckos were extremely healthy when they left here, and that the fattails were the original cause of the problem. I e-mailed him about this, but he outright said he doesn't want to talk about the fattails. I have a large list of references, if anyone is interested. If anyone has any questions to ask about this, please feel free to e-mail me at: jva95@msn.com
Jason Hays |
reply to hays haven
i have never changed what the vet. said was the reason. and the fattails that i had died i had for a over a month before i got the geckos off you and they where health til your geckos arrived. i took your geckos to the vet i use the day after i got them like any other animal i get to protect my other animals. at that time the one died and the other two where in poor shape from a infection which they had from before i received them. the fattails where at the vet before and where given a clean bill of health. they also came from a quality breeder. Mark Leshock of M.L. REPTILES. and i use a top vet at Lincoln Hgy Vet Hospital here in Lancaster. who did an autopsy on the first albino and the infection was wide spread in her. that doen't happen that fast he told me or it doesn't happen if you would have taken proper care of them. so i tried to save the other two with meds. i got from the vet. and lost them also becuase the infection was too far gone. where is this my fault. you sold me sick geckos and you think i should just lose the 150 dollars on the deal. what kind of honest person deal with people like this. NO OTHER PERSON I HAVE DEALT WITH HAS BEEN AS DISHONEST AS YOU. and now you don't like it when i complain about it. i not only lost the albinos but also my whole colony of fattail breeder because of you. and you don't think i should be upset. and all i ask for is to get back what i paid for the albinos only. nothing else not even shipping. your unthinkable act messed up my stock for the next year or so. but maybe this is the way you get rid of other breeders. any question to me can be email to gwboltoncomcast.net
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Assuming for the sake of argument that the leos were shipped sick, how did THAT fact cause the death of the fat tails? If you take all animals to the vet in order to keep your other animals safe, do you not also quarrantine new arrivals??? That part doesn't make much sense to me. I cannot see how it would be the fault of Jason that the fat talis died, no matter what.
Also, do you have documentation from your vet that you could post here? Do you have pictures of the dead geckos? I have to admit that I would be hesitant in sending you any replacement animals based solely on what you've outlined here. I'm really sorry you've lost animals, but you really do need to document what you've accused Jason of doing here, Gary. By the way, the TOS for the BOI requires that you use your fullname with each and every post. You might want to edit your signature line so that you don't have to worry about that requirement in the future. |
i am not asking anything about the fat tails. the day i brought this to jis attention he told me he would send me some babies as soon as they hatched. months go by no geckos. i goto his site to find one of the babies for sale. he replies haveno money will send when i do. then i get email will be sending it to you. still haven't received. once i start to get mad he suddenly decides to say he has people who say i do bad dealings. to try to cover up the fact he shipped sick herps. and won't make good on the deal. as for proof of that
Hello Gary, I have the money for shipping now. Just waiting for some temps in the 30s preferably. I'll let you know before I ship. Jason CHECK OUT OUR BEARDED DRAGONS ETC.. AT: http://hayshaven.tripod.com . never got that shipment as to this date. so i sent him this email... From: Gary Bolton To: VERONICA PARKER Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:33 PM Subject: Re: temped albino geckos was wondering about when you were going to ship him.........? then suddenly i get this lie sent to me... After talking to 2 other breeders that have had problems dealing with you. And since your story of the problem has changed too many times for me to even count. I've decided not to ship you the lizard. ok problem there i only have dealt with 2 guyS in ILL. jason being one of them i talked to the other no problems there. 2 in penna. no problems there . the liazrd lady no problems there. 3 in fl. no complains there. and 3 in ca. all ok there too. oops i guess he forgot i keep track of all reptile the enter and leave my home. gotta thank mark for that idea. and if i did have any problems they would have reported me to paypal which is who i use for most of my transactions. no complaints there either. so he sold sick animals said he would make good on it and failed to do so. an this according to him is all my fault. all i want is what i am due back what i paid for the albinos nothing more or less. |
Quarrantine????
It's unfortunate that they died, but Just how exactly did the leos contaminate the fat tails?
All new arrivals should be quarrantined and proper care should be taken when handling new arrivals and then handling all other animals. If not, then spreading disease is easily done. You state that the leos caused the fat tails to die and that this statement is backed up by a vet. So, show us the vets documentation that proves this. Quote:
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If you are going to make accusations that someone is being dishonest etc, then you need to back up those accusations with the documentation needed. Otherwise, you have ZERO proof that Jason is responsible for any wrong doing. |
Gary,
Please slow down. If you could provide some facts on some things, it will help. 1) What date did you receive the geckos? 2) What date did you take them to the vet? 3) What date did each of them die? 4) Did you provide the seller with the vet report and/or photos of the dead animals? 5) Can you post the vet report and or those photos here? The first email you posted means nothing, because there is no header or date on it. Please provide some DOCUMENTATION in some understable form and order. |
FORGOT TO MENTION
You say that two other breeders had problems with him, but don't want their names mentioned.
Well, if they don't want their names mentioned then what they say means nothing and no point in even mentioning that two other breeders had problems! Kind a hollow! |
You're right Scott. I probably shouldn't have posted about the other 2 breeders without the ablility to give their names. The problem is that if I give their names, they could face the same type of criticism that I am now. I use the BOI often and appreciate that it's here. But in this situation I hope that everyone sees that I'm just standing up for myself and that I believe in my word enough to take the slander from Gary that I am now.
Jason Hays |
SLANDER?
Slander yes, and it will remain slander until Gary produces proof to the accusations he made.
If he doesn't, well I am not going to believe what he says based on his comments. He has at this point provided more questions then answers and provided no proof at all so far that you (Jason) are guilty of anything. At this point it makes me wonder who the victem is? What's that term?? ......innocent until proven guilty! |
reply to ms_terese
i received the geckos at the begining of seot. 2002 took them to the vet 9/3/2002. vet records states 2 sick 1 dead from a infection. so i bought meds. from vet. dr. shaw. and gave it to the 2 remaining geckos and called jason that day to let him know. he seemed willing to solve the problem. in 2or 3 days the geckos got worst and died. jason offered me other geckos to replace them. i waited and no geckos arrived. then later i saw one of those geckos for sale on his site. i emailed him about is an he took it off his site. an told me he would send it to me. never did again. now if he had a problem why not tell me months ago. my opinion is i bought from him in good faith, got sick geckos, was promised replacments which he tried to sell them, when caught he made promises again and lied and now he makes claims of others that say i did them wrong and won't say who. i even talked to a friend of his who i did business with and he had no problems with me. and his reptiles where of high quality. i would buy from DK HERPS AGAIN because damin is a very honest guy. again all i ask for is what i am due the 150 dollars i paid for the albinos. if he doesn't believe me what did he offer the replacements before. and why when caught trying to sell the one gecko did he remove it from his web site and promise to sent it too me...
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NAME
Gary, you might want to put your name at the bottom of all your posts or in your signature. Otherwise, they will probably be deleted and what you then said will of meant nothing!
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Gary, can you post the vet report? If not, can you post here what "infection" the lizards were diagnosed with?
Did you send pictures or the vet report to Jason? Jason, did you receive pictures or a vet report? Jason, did you agree to send a replacement? If you did, what was that decision based on and what changed your mind? Jason, do the dates match with your records? Who is DK Herps and how are they related to this? |
slander
an as far as slander. when is the truth slander. if he was so sure the geckos were healthy then why offer me other geckos. also when i noticed the one gecko on his web site for sale why take it off and send me the email saying he will ship it when he has money. if he had a problem with it why not bring it up back in 2002. i gave him time to make good on a bad transaction. some people wouldn't have waited this long. he has had my email address and phone number how comes he waited so long to bring up all these problems. i called him lots of times to try to solve this, he even stated that he has my number on his caller id. i even talked to his wife an left a message and left messages on his answering machine. no reply. so now i warn others about him and suddenly 2 others pop out of the air telling him i wronged them but they do not want their name made public. get real... he just thought i would take this lost and grin and bear it. NOT..... like an old tv show once said If YOU DO THE CRIME YOU GOT To DO THE TIME.
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I am not taking sides here, but it has always been a principle of mine that the accuser has the burden of proof upon him in any "bad guy" report. So, I am still asking Gary to provide us with some actual documentation of the illness about which he is speaking. Not his testimonial about the documentation . . .actual documentation.
Gary, in what town does your vet, Dr. Shaw, live in Pennsylvania? The reason I ask is because I just performed a search on american-verterinarian.com, and there is no listing of a Dr. Shaw anywhere in the State so far as I can see. Now, to be fair there may be some very good reasons why that is the case, which is why I am asking for further clarification from you, Gary. Just give us the full name of your vet and the town in which he/she practices, please. Jason, Your email to Gary suggests that you changed your mind in mid-stream, and one of the determinant factors was that you heard some unflattering statements about Gary from other sources. I understand how that goes, but since you had already agreed to give him a replacement of some sort (assuming that you actually did), don't you suppose that ought to be your continued plan? I can certainly understand your wanting to wait until Gary proves that the leos are, in fact, dead, but if he does supply you with that proof, shouldn't you just chalk this up to a learning experience and send him a gecko? Just a thought. |
The dates are very close to accurate. I won't say for sure since the only record I have is of the actual sale, and not the phone calls afterward. The reason for the time gap is that one of the females that I had sold him laid eggs on Aug 17. This was the gecko that I had told him I would send. One egg hatched on Oct 4th. 6 weeks later when it was old enough for shipping the weather was very cold. The entire time these things were occuring, Gary and I kept in contact. Through these contacts it became obvious to me that his stories weren't matching up. I made the original deal to send the baby the same day he called the first time. I even questioned his story then, since I had never had any problem with any of them. If it hadn't been for the timing and weather, he would have got the gecko without a second thought from me. In the time that the eggs were incubating, he changed the vets diagnosis more than once. He also kept changing the number of geckos that died. And then he tried to change the terms of the deal. Asking for first a blue tongue skink, then a bearded dragon instead of the gecko. Luckily on my part the timing worked out to show me the truth. And yes, I have no problem admitting that I put the gecko on the site for sale. And that it was the wrong thing to do. I should have told him that I had decided not to send the gecko before I tried to sell it. And no, I never received photos or vet receipts for the lost geckos. I've also never received any kind of real diagnosis, or records of any medications that he was supposedly given for the geckos.
Jason Hays |
By the way, "slander" is spoken. Writing known lies on a computer that actually cause damage to one's reputation and/or business would be known as "libel."
Both of them are extremely hard to prove, and it's just best to learn to not call names and not be so thin-skinned about people who do. At least, that's MHO. ;) |
INFO
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Your good word alone is NOT the truth, but an accusation without proof! Quote:
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ok here is the info
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vet info and etc.
ok here is the vet i use is
dr. shaw at Lincoln Highway Veterinary Clinic 1833 Lincoln Highway East Lancaster, PA 17602 and the geckos had CELLULITIS the first one also had STREP PNEMONIA due to her condition with the other disease. vet gave me TETRACYCOINE to give the other 2 which died later even after med, pediolite, warm water, and heat lamps failed to help them. i was even nice to alert him about the disease. but i guess it is a lost cause. hope no one else has this problem. taught be a lesson thou. never trust get it in writing... gary bolton |
How did your vet happen to come to that diagnosis?
1. Did he do bloodwork? 2. Did he do a C&S? They died of cellulitis? come on.... I'm assuming that you atleast took photos of the dead geckos, right? If they had such advanced cellulitis that it caused them to die....this should be pretty obvious in the photos. Anybody ever see a leopard gecko with strep throat? Me neither ;) |
I was joking about the strep throat...
but if your vet determined it was Streptococcus, there had to have been some diagnostic tests done and your itemized receipt from the vet should show that. Photos of the animals and a receipt from your vet would go a long way in proving your case. |
Gary,
I'm not taking sides here as I don't know either one but I agree with what the rest have said, you should provide some sort of proof. At least post a scanned vet report. If you don't have the original one I wouldn't doubt Dr. Shaw can issue a copy. After all it's not every day geckos come to a clinic and are diagnosed with cellulitis. As for the condition, cellulitis (usually a form of skin infection) does exist as an ailment in herps; bacteria such as streptococcus and staphylococcus can be the infective agent, and it's treatment (aside from supportive therapy, as suggested) is with antibiotics (like tetracycline). In my opinion if someone was going to make-up an unexisting ailment (and I'm not saying Gary has done it) he will most likely not choose a relatively rare finding such as cellulitis, and provide details about the causing organism and it's treatment. This is just my opinion of course. Assuming you post a vet report, you still have to provide proof though as of which geckos infected which. Regards. |
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Proving which geckos contaminated which may be almost impossible if they have been disposed of. Do you still have them? |
Gary,
You said that you took the geckos to the vet the day after you received them and at that time one was dead and the other two were sick. Jason says that you didn't email him about any problems until a week after receiving them. Is this true...and if not, do you have copies of your emails to prove otherwise? When you pay for a professional necropsy you should receive a necropsy report....do you have that? If you're not going to offer any proof of your allegations, you're wasting your time here. Right now, it's just your word against his. Jason may have handled this differently if you had given him some kind of proof that his animals were ill when you received them. If they had severe cellulitis it should have been obvious the minute you saw them....not a week later. |
vet
ok called vet back by tomorrow i will be posting a letter from him stating what was wrong with the geckos and treatment that was tried and failed. don't have a copy because i thought when he offered to ship other geckos problem was solved, but i was wrong. another lesson for me.
Gary Bolton |
Gary,
If you have any e-mail exchange between both of you please post it too. It might be helpful to establish time-frames. Thanks. |
Emails
Gary, any and all emails between you and Jason should be posted. Would certainly help your case.
Especially if you have one stating he would send you another gecko. If he did, then you are owed one. Posting the vet reports would be a BIG thing also! Quote:
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I think Jason said that he initially agreed to send another gecko, but then there were no photos or vet reports forthcoming, so he chose not to. If that is the situation, I would not have shipped a replacement either.
I don't know of anyone that will replace an animal without some sort of proof that the animal was/is sick or died. |
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I am wondering how long Gary had them before they died and what are Jason's TOS? |
photos and report
after the first one died and i explain the others where sick he offered the babies he was hatching. and since he trusted me i trusted him to send them. even when he told me he didn't have money to ship the one, i still trusted him. thought there was a two way trust. should have listen to another breeder who told me to trust only what you have in writing before you. now i realize even with the vet letter tomorrow i'll most likely still will lose on the sick albinos. well learn two things pay by paypal and no more trusting. but at least the vet letter will prove i am telling the truth.
Gary Bolton |
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============================================== All animals are guaranteed live arrival, as long as there is someone at home at the time of delivery. If you are not going to be at home, please have me ship to your work, or on another day, when you'll be at home. I also guarantee the health of all animals, as long as you contact me as soon as you notice a problem. All animals should eat within 24 hours of arriving at your home. Most will eat and drink right out of the box. All animals are guaranteed healthy and eating well. In the case of a DOA, I will refund any money paid minus shipping. Or if possible, replace the animal with another of the same or better quality. In the case of a replacement animal, the buyer must pay for shipping on the second animal. Also, I must be contacted within 24 hours of delivery, if there is an unfortunate loss due to delayed or extreme weather shipping. Proof must be provided of the DOA. Including, but not limited to: photographs, receipts, and shipping the animal back to me. ============================================== Sounds to me like he requires proof for refund or replacement. |
PHOTOS
Judging by the TOS it would seem Jason requires photos as part of that proof. The vet report will be interesting.
Did he take photos of the dead ones? Without pics it might be difficult for Gary to get a replacement because he hasn't honored the TOS that require pics. The TOS are applied to a DOA for a refund, not to something that died a short while later. But there appears to be no time frame for a sick animal or for one that dies shortly after arriving in regards to getting a refund. I might be wrong, but a week after an animal dies you should be eligible for a refund according to the TOS. |
Just curious
I only read through some of the post, so I may be repeating a question here, BUT wouldn't Hay's have other dead geckos at own place if he had sick gecko's, cause wouldn't those same ones he sent to Gary infect his (Hay's) own? Does that make sense??? Anyone get what I'm saying????
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It is a valid point, and one that I considered, but (assuming for the moment and the sake of argument that Hay's was a corrupt individual/business) why would Hay's EVER admit to that being the case??? Gary already distrusts Hay's, so why should he believe him when he says his animals are all doing fine? If Hay's were to come on and say "Yep, all my collection is dead/dying from it too!" he would be an honest individual, but such a person would have also sent a refund/replacement right off the bat, knowing he had sent sick animals.
So, if Hay's were honest enough to say his reps were sick, he'd be honest enough to handle the matter correctly. If he says they're fine, it could very well be that Hay's is being honest, and they really are fine, but you're never going to convince Gary of that! All in all, I think we'd be running around the barn for very little outcome on that question. Just mho, though. |
It's always possible that someone who has been to Hay's or is in the know might be able to answer that question, not just Hay's!
Otherwise, at this point I don't see that Jason has done anything wrong so far, so maybe we had better just accept his answer if he responds to this and give him the benefit of the doubt. |
Oh, please don't get what I typed above wrong! I wasn't questioning Jason's credibility there at all . . .I was only trying to see things from every point of view. I have just never been one to take a person's description of his own position in an argument to be verified fact, without the type of outside testimony you suggested.
Documentation is the key to any position on the BOI. I was just pointing out the possible flaws in what was stated, that's all. |
I thought that too...
I thought the same things, but just wondered if the question had been posed and if so had anyone seen Hay's animals, or possibly bought some gecko's at the same time. It does seem to me that it's odd that Gary's geckos all fell ill and died, yet he also had some gecko's from elsewhere that could have very well brought the infection in too. Like I saw posted several times, quarantine, quarantine, quarantine!!!!!
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