Anyone see this ad on KS????
 

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=259177

GABOON VIPER! LONGEST FANGS IN THE WORLD (VENOM DUCTS REMOVED)GREAT SNAKE

EUGENE OREGON USA

THIS SNAKE IS AMAZINGLY BEAUTIFUL. SO COOL WHEN IT PUFFS UP AND HISSSSSSSSSSSSS's

GREAT EATER. WILL MAKE A GREAT PET. CAPTIVE BREED AND CAN BE AT YOUR DOORSTEP OVERNIGHT!

541-914-4903 OR E-MAIL bloodbankdragons@aol.com

$600 WITH FREE SHIPPING

STEVEN BARNES

It is 100% against the law to ship venomous species through an overnight carrier to your door step..... This is another jackass making it bad for us in the hobby...... I suggest everyone report this person and use the info he gave out himself in the ad.....

I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i have done with mine, and none have died...:smokin:







.....lets just forget this post, i realize now it was stupid...but i wont delete it because i know what i did was wrong....

Gregg,

I saw the ad and was going to post it as well, but then I saw this...you are right, that is 100% ILLEGAL! I'm sending a complaint to KS that one of it's users is ILLEGALLY shipping venomous animals through mail carriers. This isn't excusable, venomoid or not.



Are you admitting to illegally performing venomoid surgery yourself on snakes? Or are you a vet?

and if so why? because as it states in his signature line he only has a copperhead and mangrove.

some people and their home butchery skills. come on over to my house and let me cut out and remove your impacted wisdome teeth and see how you like that... i got my trusty buck knife, a pair of plyers and some fishing line and a needle to do the surgery.... i hope you dont mind a little rust on the knife or thee dirt on the plyers, plus that fishing line is used but all i have and that needle i used to pop a boil on my newphew butt the other day... come on it wont hurt i promise.

Mike "Metzger"
 

Mike,

I noticed your last name is Metzger,

Did you know that if the "g" in your last name was a "k" than it would be the german word for "butcher?"

I thought i was interesting since you do your own surgaries to remove the venom glands.

Please not that I am no way trying to offend you or talk in a negative manor about your last name. I am just pointing out a interesting fact.

Steve Ingram

Unless you're a DVM, it's unethical and illegal. I would greatly appreciate it if you not promote criminal behavior in these forums. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Ethics?
 

So it's ethical if you ARE a DVM? I don't know about that. However, going back to the original post.....shouldn't someone be screening those posts? KS needs some monitoring. They also need to eliminate the crooks from posting ads as well. Bright idea , huh?

BThacker

the poster of the classified on kingsnake has since changed his ad. it no longer states shipping to your door. i reported it to ks with some added contents but i guess they do not care about illegal activity and i am sure if the guy finds a buyer thats exactly how he will ship it... next day to their door.

vet.....
 

Why do people come to conclusions??? Why not find out whats going on before you try and say things like that.......? I dont't take offense about the name thing i don't care.... But I only help with the surgery, my reptile store that i work for has a herpetologist/reptile proffessional vet there, and he just lets me help, plus i get it done for free, sorry for the misleading information, it didn't sound like what i was trying to say.... And i also have a eastern diamondback, a mountain pit viper, and my newest, a baby coral.... I have just been getting into venomous over the last year, and my profile's not updated...so sorry for leading anyone to think I do the surgery, but no i didn't know that my last name could be butcher with a "k" or whatever, that really had nothing to do with the post, but thanks for the cool information....lol:flamethr:

Venemoids
 

Hey Mike-

Don't think I'm harshing on you in any way. I don't come on here to bash anyone. I have always had a passion for venemous, especially Crotalus. I am just curious as to why you put your animals through surgery? Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. I know it may sound like a dumb question but I am curious.

Thanks-

BThacker

Re: vet.....
 

Interesting...most vets will not let an unqualified person anywhere near an animal during surgery...I have a few friends who are vet techs, and to even work in a vet clinic they need to be certified...

No offense, but I'm still having a hard time believing you that a vet is performing the surgeries on your animals.

Couple that with the fact that 99.9% of vets will NOT perform such a surgery...

There's no question in my mind that the activities being discussed here are both unethical and illegal. A vet cannot legally or ethically allow a random person to "assist" in surgeries on animals belonging to other people.

This is the venomous discussion forum, and promoting venomoids or venomoid operations is not acceptable here. If you are unable to keep venomous snakes because you are too impatient to acquire the professional skills and tools necessary to do so safely, leave them in the zoo where they belong. Cutting pieces off of an animal so that you don't have to bother learning anything about it is not ethical husbandry. People who abuse snakes in this manner are not welcome in a responsible venomous keeper's forum.

Oregon
 

Did anyone else notice that the person posting the ad on ks was based in Oregon? Could it be kevin smith or dick richey using a pseudonym? Or, could that be, the coward, smith, actually using his real name?

did i miss something here? who is dick richey (what a name:hehe: )... reminds me of this band that plays around here.... the swinging richards. ok now back to the point who is kevin smith?

You know Tanith... I'm about as hardline antivenomoid as they come... But this is RICH'S website and it's for RICH to decide when and IF he wants this site to take a stand against the promotion of venomoids. Based on his response when it was requested that he not allow them in the classifieds, I don't think it's a fight he wants to get involved in and he's essentially left the site neutral in the ongoing debate.

Meaning Tanith... that it is not your place to decide what kind of discussion is or is not acceptable. Seems to be a major ongoing problem with you but I'm sure if you work at it, you'll eventually get that stick out. Try wiggling it.

If pro-venomoiders post here, there are going to be some ugly, bloody, nasty flamewars whether I personally participate in them or not. They are not going to be welcomed by the responsible herp keeping community.

Whether Rich has specific rules on the subject or not, the end result of pro venomoiders posting here is going to be bad. They won't get any welcome here. If Rich wants to welcome them, he's going to have to do it personally, and if he does that the rest of us will pack up and leave. I don't think he's planning on that however.

Ken has already made it clear that posts about unethical and illegal activity are not acceptable in this forum. I'm echoing that message. Venomoiders go away. This is the venomous reptile keeping forum, not the home butchering forum.

First of all, i am not some random person, said by: snakegetters, i am a relative, and all i do is just help hold things, and he shows me how to do it....... I probably wouldnt even do it myself, because people get in arguments, like this one, or whatever this is considered..... I wouldnt do it anyway in case of harming the snake...I am interested in what other people think about this, but i don't see why its a big deal if I'm not harming someone or something, and NO...im not a vet..but still..im sure there could be some reason for being educated or knowing atleast a little something about venomoid surgery, am i wrong???:argue:

I have sat back and just watched this thread. But now Hognose ask a question so to answer you let me ask you one.

Give me a Reason why its ok to perform a surgery on any creature that is based purely on profit?

Why perform an operation to alter an animal that you say you love it for what it is?

The surgery Is performed to give people a false since of security in owning a venomous reptile. It is not a guarantee it will never again have the capability to deliver venom." ill give you the reason in a minute"

Performing or ownership of an altered venomous reptile is not for the love of the animal. It is however human lust. Humanity has a tendancy to lust for things and because of lust they are willing to alter it for their taste , needs or ego. If a person truly loves an animal they love it for what it is, in its true natural condition.

There are arguements that If the surgery is performed correctly it will never again be able of producing venom that is a BIG " IF " to risk you life on.

There is an arguement that there is no evidance of a venomoid biting someone. That is incorrect! Tere is actually 3 very well recorded case's of it occurring.

There is an arguement they can not regenerate the venom gland. Another false statement.

I hope this will get read and enlighten people.

For the record numerous medical research institutes including The United States Department of Agriculture have done numerous studies on Reparative Regeneration using reptiles as part of their experiments and have found that it can and does occur. This includes and is not limited to reptilian and amphibians.

Many of the studies indicate a degree of both organ and tissue regeneration.

Regeneration is defined as the replacement, repair or restoration of lost or damaged structures or reconstitution of the whole body from a small fragment of it during the post-embryonic life.

There are two main types:
Reparative Regeneration: This type is limited to the repair or healing of injuries, and it takes place by localized cell proliferation and migration. This is seen both in vertebrates and invertebrates.

Restorative Regeneration: It is the replacement of lost body parts. It is rare among vertebrates but common in invertebrates.

EXAMPLES OF REGENERATION ABILITY IN DIFFERENT ANIMALS
The degree of this ability differs in the various groups of animals. Following are some examples from invertebrates:

Protozoans: If an Amoeba is cut into parts each containing a piece of the nucleus, the parts grow into complete individuals.

Sponges: Any part of the body can be cut off or injured and it will be readily repaired, e.g., Sycon.

Coelenterates: A Hydra may be cut into many bits, and each part will regenerate into a complete individual of smaller size. The posterior end will regenerate the mouth and tentacles; the anterior part regenerates the foot and adhesive disc.

In vertebrates, the regenerative power is quite restricted. In fish, the tail does not regenerate. In reptiles it does.
Regenerative power is most spectacular in the urodele amphibians. In newts and salamanders, limbs, tails, external gills, upper and lower jaws, parts of the eye (iris, retina) can regenerate.

In mammals, regenerative ability is restricted to tissue regeneration i.e., the restoration of defects and lesions in various tissues but not the restoration of lost organs.

The only exception is the liver in mammals. If a part of it is removed, the remaining portion grows by repeated division to full size, but the normal shape is not restored. Likewise, if one kidney is removed, the other enlarges to take over the function of the missing kidney. This is called compensatory hypertrophy.

There are numerous studies to this end.

Regarding venomoid surgery if the organ IS NOT fully removed it has the potential to regenerate or more accurately Restore itself to a partial use. We do have evidence of many cases of ductal regeneration in which the animal was capable of delivering venom through the duct again.

Just because something has not to some peoples views been credibly scientifically proven does not mean by and means it cannot happen. The evidence especially in the reptile and amphibian families show all to often exactly how much these animals can do to repair damage done to their bodies and or in reproduction.

If the surgery is done completely and correctly the odds remain low of any regeneration. However it is still an IF and I for one am not willing to bet my or my families life on an IF.

There are as of this date 3 confirmed envenomations from supposed venomoids snakes. 1 in Miami Florida. 1 in Liverpool and 1 in Germany. Why is there not more? Simple, Under the medical coding system a snake bite is is broken down as follows

Bite
animal NEC E906.5
other specified (except arthropod) E906.3
venomous NEC E905.9
arthropod (nonvenomous) NEC E906.4
venomous - see Sting
black widow spider E905.1
cat E906.3
centipede E905.4
cobra E905.0
copperhead snake E905.0
coral snake E905.0
dog E906.0
fer de lance E905.0
gila monster E905.0
human being
accidental E928.3
assault E968.7
insect (nonvenomous) E906.4
venomous - see Sting
krait E905.0
late effect of - see Late effect
lizard E906.2
venomous E905.0
mamba E905.0
marine animal
nonvenomous E906.3
snake E906.2
venomous E905.6
snake E905.0
millipede E906.4
venomous E905.4
moray eel E906.3
rat E906.1
rattlesnake E905.0
rodent, except rat E906.3
serpent - see Bite, snake
shark E906.3
snake (venomous) E905.0
nonvenomous E906.2
sea E905.0
spider E905.1
nonvenomous E906.4
tarantula (venomous) E905.1
venomous NEC E905.9
by specific animal - see category E905
viper E905.0
water moccasin E905.0

You will see there is no CODE FOR VENOMOID so it has to be call venomous. and lets face it if it injects venom it is hot, no matter what the person selling it may have told you.

Unless the bite recieves media attention and it is told to them it was a venomoid which by the way is not a true word then it is concidered venomous. With the growing market for these altered cornsnakes it is only a matter of time before we start hearring more and more bite accounts. Ofcourse the proponants for these altered animals will claim bad surgery is the case. Well to me the simple fact is no surgery and no risk would have prevented it. A venomoid owner would not treat a hot the same as his new pet cornsnake thus he wouldnt have had the hot to begin with.

His name is actually Rich Richey (Dick being a short form of Richard, but also being a very fitting term for this butcher) and he is a backyard butcher. Kevin Smith (not the director!) is his protege, and together they cut up snakes to sell to the inexperienced, and impatient people that make up the venomoid purchasing community. Kevin Smith is the most visible of the two, posting classifieds for his abused victims on KS quite often. In some of the pictures he's posted, you can still see the stitches or scars in the side of the snakes face.

Someone somewhere mentioned something about Kevin possibly taking a hit from a loaded snake recently. If this is the case, I have one thing to say: Karma is a bitch.

I wonder if it would ever be legal to take a Dog's teeth out surgically? Or is already? There was a post saying if you don't have the resources and brains to keep venemous responsibly....then DON"T! Surgically removing an organ that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to develop for the benefit of an animal is butchering mother nature. If you respect animals and nature then you would leave alone what it was given to them. Kooks that take part in these "surgeries" really should think twice about what they are doing.

I posted a question for Mike that has yet to be answered.....What purpose does the "surgery" provide for you and the animals?

BThacker

It provides safety for the keeper, but to let you know...yes i do agree with you more than anyone else i've ever seen post on here... but the thrill of keeping snakes that are venomous....is that they are venomous!!! But mine are not, there are some limitations and there are many risks...but why not make sure its safe?? I already know that the venom gland's regenerate, which really had nothing to do with anything... I appreciate what you have said, and i agree with it because you obviously know what your talking about.... but i originally did not say I PERFORM THE SURGERY...did I? My only response was that I "helped".

The Only Way I "Help", is by watching and holding tools and different organs and things are seperated...so the surgery can be done... So your trying to say that a reptile vet would say, "no i will not perform the surgery on a snake because that's the way they are"? That's what I think...... Because if you went to vet, they would charge you $2000.00 bucks, and then still say "take it easy"...so any vet would do this...

That statement is false! I have spoken to hundreds of vets that will not perform it.

Many of them state in fact that it is morally and ethically wrong to do so and in clear violation of the Oath they have taken.

Veterinarian's Oath

Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge.

I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.

I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

Many of the vets I have spoke to point out that in fact even if they could discount their Oath the risk of a potential bite and potential ramification in lawsuits and risk of loosing their lisence is not wourth the few hundred dollars they will gain.


You also said
If as you state he is performing the surgery there I would hope you have all the proper legal paperwork and the legal requirements set fourth by APHIS unless you have these you and your store are in numerous violations of law.


The above statement contradicts itself! If you know they regenerate then you know they are not safe. Why then remove the glands for any reason? Venomous husbandry is not a persay safe hobby it has risk. However proper training and safety make it a less of a danger.

If you can't deal with the risks, then you shouldn't be working with venomous. Laziness is not a valid excuse for hacking out part of a snake's head.

Are you limited in what you can own because you're under 18? Yes, you did. While you explained later that you *don't* do the surgery yourself, that wasn't your first statement.

Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things, not to ask people questions or share what they think and have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do...I do not know how to Quote what ppl say.....but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.

I do Not hack open the snake's head, all i do is help hold things and i get to watch, i dont even think id be able to do that even if i knew how..... it's my own snake and i care about them, and hes a professional, so ill leave it up to him....and i don't see why a vet would go to college for x amount of years if he's not willing to do his job..... ofcourse people are going to ask to have that surgery done for many snakes...buthe should have been prepared to do his work..... i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion? Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.

Snakes are the most extraordinary things on this earth...and some people think they represent the devil....but in history the Kwakuitl indians believed that snakes represented the passage way between heaven and earth, some people respect them, and some don't, and they should be respected. People have been taking over there world for a long time, and then we become fascinated in them. So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

This post has got contain some of the stupidest, most ignorant statements I have EVER seen concerning this subject...no offense.

What exactly are you trying to say here? You state you know it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Your true selfishness and greed are exhibited here for all to see. I hope you are proud. And if something is your passion, you want to do your best to preserve it, not subject it to a cruel and needless surgery that risks it's life. Your "passion" is obvious: To inflate your ego.

You are one hundred percent correct...if you can't keep a snake with it's venom, you shouldn't be keeping it...but you also shouldn't be subjecting it to cruel procedures that do NOTHING to benefit the animal just so you can keep it. I would say that you should stick to non-venomous, but I'm not even sure you should be keeping those.

What a profound statement. Unfortunately, it only makes you look more selfish and egotistic. You don't "need to have the surgery done by someone else", you choose to. Don't try and make it look like your desire to keep a venomous species justifies you cutting it up to make it suitable for you, because NO ONE here is going to buy it.

I've said enough for now. Talking sense into venomoiders is about as effective as talking sense into a wall. Your ego and greed block out any empathy or compassion for the animals you claim to have "passion" for.

You're correct that some people don't respect venomous snakes. They're the ones who think it's perfectly okay to hack out a major portion of the snake's anatomy because they're too lazy or irresponsible to keep an intact animal.

Also, I've asked you twice, and now I'm just straight out gonna tell you... shorten your signature. Three or four lines is reasonable. Fourteen lines is an unnecessary waste of sever space.

Indians and respect
 

MIke-
Ok.......The Indians have great respect for the snake? I never read about them hacking into the snake's head to remove their glands. If you have such great respect for these animals, you would not participate in these atrocities. It's been said before.... If you can't keep venemous without hacking them up, then leave it up to the Zoos. You can go and check them out whenever you like. Plus there is no risk of you getting bit!!!!! Analyze the statements you've made carefully. You just don't make any sense. Your enthusiasm for reptiles is great but these animals deserve respect. Hopefully you will take something positive from this thread.

BThacker

metzger
 

Abishek, that was an excellent post! I really like the way that you handle these venomoider fools. I wish that I had your patience.

michael metzger is a liar; and a very bad one at that.

Does anyone else see numerous parallels between metzger and cameron glucheff?

It's your turn now, michael-change your story yet another time.

Let's make this perfectly clear. Many of the folks in this forum are *very* happy to call your local authorities and do their best to get you arrested if you brag here about doing illegal things. Some of us have a pretty good track record of making life less pleasant for animal abusers, and we're proud of it. And yes, we will now be focusing those efforts on you because you decided to promote do-it-yourself venomoiding efforts on a responsible venomous keeper's forum. That's kind of like going to an NAACP forum and bragging about attending a KKK meeting. Not too bright.

Whether you're related or not, if you aren't properly certified or employed in the veterinary profession, it's legally and ethically questionable for any veterinarian to allow you to work on animals belonging to other clients. The legal liability problems can be very serious indeed if something goes wrong. Vets know this, which is why we are questioning the truth of your story.

Can you imagine a human doctor who let his cousin into the surgery area and allowed this medically untrained person to assist in surgery, even so much as by handing over one scalpel blade? Do you understand the potential for lawsuits here? Legally it's the same in veterinary medicine. A vet can get into huge amounts of trouble if they do this, so generally they don't.


Exactly. Leave the venomous snakes in the zoo where they belong. They don't belong with people who need to chop pieces off of them and cripple them because they don't know how to work with venomous snakes safely. For your next purchase, are you planning to buy a lion and cut its hind legs off so it can sit harmlessly in your living room as a decoration? That would be a cool house pet, you betcha.

Not "possible"? Who has a gun to your head forcing you to keep venomous snakes? Your selfish desire and your laziness is what the snakes are suffering for. If you are incapable of learning the proper safety skills and acquiring the proper safe housing for keeping dangerous wild animals, don't keep them. Duuh.

You should be really ashamed of yourself. I do hands on work daily with adult king cobras, mambas, kraits, elapids and vipers of all kinds and sizes, and I have absolutely no trouble at all. I am a little old lady (well, middle aged) with thick glasses and bad knees. The skills of safe keeping and handling are professional and easily acquired. If a little old lady can do it so easily, you have absolutely no excuse. You are a sadly deficient individual and you are making animals suffer for your deficiencies.

I should have caught this earlier.

Veterinarians don't do elective surgery on newborn animals. Backyard butchers do.

A few licensed veterinarians do venomoid surgery; I've read papers on the subject by one and heard him lecture on the subject at conferences. One of the things he stated was that the surgery had to be performed on an adult animal, for two reasons. One, a very young animal is at much higher risk. Two, the structures are much smaller and more difficult to properly separate and distinguish in a newborn. So the operation may be a failure either because the animal will not survive surgery, or because it simply won't work. Neonates have a remarkable capacity for regeneration and regrowth.

In short, we have one of two things going on here. Either this is an illegal backyard butcher situation with no vet involved, or there's a vet doing some incredibly stupid things that would expose them to huge legal liabilities. My guess is that the vet is a mythical beastie. Look at the direct quote above that involves words like "do it yourself".

Who's in for helping me with the background research we need to get this one brought up on animal cruelty charges? Where is this pet store?

That is true

Just contridicted your first sentance. We all come here to ask questions and to learn from others experiances and opnions and even critisum is welcomed.

We pointed out that Illegal surgery is a crime. We never said we were trying to get you arrested.

However Here is the Legal Surgical guidlines from APHIS

Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing surgeries.

And he is violating his sworn oath. Not to mention i seriously doubt if your petshop has the required facilities for Surgery or post operative care as outlines by Aphis

pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee. However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal. Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the animal.

His Job is clearly outlined in the Oath he took and the Ethics of veterinary medical care. Maybe you and he should try reading them both. Also the sergury in question can in no way support a vet full time with any true monetary value equated to it as the proper medical conditions that this surgery done legally would require including Pre-op, Surgery and post operative care.

You beleive its wrong yet still allow it do be done $@!? NOW THAT IS EGO101.

Then in your own words DONT KEEP THEM.

Now this one I have got no clue on earth why after your above statements you would contridict yourself again although it is a pattern your showing all to frequently. Your EGO AND VANITY are the reason you want them.

Just to make it easy for you

Pages 1--6 from Policy #3 Veterinary Care

Policies Veterinary Care Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000

AC 3.1
Subject: Veterinary Care
Expired Medical Materials
Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Surgery
Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
Program of Veterinary Care
Health Records
Euthanasia


Policy #3

Justification: The Animal Welfare Act (AWA) requires that all regulated animals be provided
adequate veterinary care.


Policy: Expired Medical Materials
The use of expired medical materials such as drugs, fluids, or sutures on
regulated animals is not considered to be acceptable veterinary practice and
does not constitute adequate veterinary care as required by the regulations
promulgated under the Animal Welfare Act. All expired medical materials
found in a licensed or registered facility are to be brought to the attention of
the responsible official. The facility must either dispose of all such materials or
segregate them in an appropriately labeled, physically separate location from
non-expired medical materials. The Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service
(APHIS) has no jurisdiction over facilities using expired medical materials for
non-regulated animals or non-regulated activities.


For acute terminal procedures, APHIS does not oppose the use of expired
medical materials if their use does not adversely affect the animal's well-being
or compromise the validity of the scientific study. Proper anesthesia, analgesia,
and euthanasia are required for all such procedures. Drugs administered to
relieve pain or distress and emergency drugs must not be used beyond their 1
1 Page 2 3
Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.2
expiration date. Facilities allowing the use of expired medical materials in
acute terminal procedures should have a policy covering the use of such
materials and/ or require investigators to describe in their animal activity
proposals the intended use of expired materials. The attending veterinarian and
the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee (IACUC) are responsible for
ensuring that proposed animal activities avoid or minimize discomfort, distress,
and pain to the animal. These responsibilities cannot be met unless the
veterinarian and the IACUC maintain control over the use of expired medical
materials.


Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Investigators are expected to use pharmaceutical-grade medications whenever
they are available, even in acute procedures. Non-pharmaceutical-grade
chemical compounds should only be used in regulated animals after specific
review and approval by the IACUC for reasons such as scientific necessity or
non-availability of an acceptable veterinary or human pharmaceutical-grade
product. Cost savings alone are not an adequate justification for using non-pharmaceutical-
grade compounds in regulated animals.


Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic
techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed
only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither
aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical
demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated
surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as
dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must
at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable
veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard
examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe
reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for
food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing
surgeries.


Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
All animal activity proposals involving surgery must provide specific details of 2
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AC 3.3
pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific
details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee.
However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified
in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to
relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to
avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain
and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not
to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for
post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research
facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal.
Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with
professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the
animal.


Program of Veterinary Care
Facilities which do not have a full-time attending veterinarian must have a
written Program of Veterinary Care (PVC). This Program must consist of a
properly completed APHIS Form 7002 or an equivalent format providing all of
the information required by the APHIS form. The attending veterinarian must
visit the facility on a regular basis, i. e., often enough to provide adequate
oversight of the facility's care and use of animals but no less than annually.
Records of visits by the attending veterinarian must be kept to include dates of
the visits and comments or recommendations of the attending veterinarian or
other veterinarians.


The PVC must be reviewed and updated whenever necessary (e. g., as a new
species of animal or a new attending veterinarian is obtained, or the preventive
medical program changes). It must be initialed and dated by both the attending
veterinarian and the facility representative whenever it is changed or reviewed
without change. The preventive medical program described in the PVC is
expected to be in accordance with common good veterinary practices (e. g.,
appropriate vaccinations, diagnostic testing). It should include zoonotic
disease prevention measures and, if necessary, special dietary prescriptions.


Health Records 3
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Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.4
Health records are meant to convey necessary information to all people
involved in an animal's care. Every facility is expected to have a system of
health records sufficiently comprehensive to demonstrate the delivery of
adequate health care. For those facilities that employ one or more full-time
veterinarians, it is expected there will be an established health records system
consistent with professional standards that meets and probably exceeds, the
minimum requirements set forth in this policy. For facilities that do not employ
a full-time veterinarian, it is suggested the health records system be explained
as part of the written PVC, to ensure involvement of the attending veterinarian
in developing the system. For all facilities, health records must be current,
legible, and include, at a minimum, the following information:


! Identity of the animal.
! Descriptions of any illness, injury, distress, and/ or behavioral
abnormalities and the resolution of any noted problem.
! Dates, details, and results (if appropriate) of all medically-related
observations, examinations, tests, and other such
procedures.
! Dates and other details of all treatments, including the name,
dose, route, frequency, and duration of treatment with drugs or
other medications. ( A "check-off" system to record when
treatment is given each day may be beneficial.)
! Treatment plans should include a diagnosis and prognosis, when
appropriate. They must also detail the type, frequency, and
duration of any treatment and the criteria and/ or schedule for
re-evaluation( s) by the attending veterinarian. In addition, it
must include the attending veterinarian's recommendation
concerning activity level or restrictions of the animal.


Examples of procedures which should be adequately documented in health
records include, but are not limited to, vaccinations, fecal examinations,
radiographs, surgeries, and necropsies. Routine husbandry and preventive
medical procedures (e. g., vaccinations and dewormings) performed on a group
of animals may be recorded on herd-health-type records. However, individual
treatment of an animal must be on an entry specific to that animal. As long as
all required information is readily available, records may be kept in any format
convenient to the licensee/ registrant (e. g., on cage cards for rodents).


Health records may be held by the licensee/ registrant (including, but not limited
to, the investigators at research facilities) or the attending veterinarian or
divided between both (if appropriately cross-referenced), but it is the
responsibility of the licensee/ registrant to ensure that all components of the 4
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Veterinary Care
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Issue Date: January 14, 2000


AC 3.5
records are readily available and that the record as a whole meets the
requirements listed above.


An animal's health records must be held for at least 1 year after its disposition
or death. (Note: Some records may need to be held longer to comply with
other applicable laws or policies.) When an animal is transferred to another
party or location, a copy of the animal's health record must be transferred with
the animal. The transferred record should contain the animal's individual
medical history, information on any chronic or ongoing health problems, and
information on the most current preventive medical procedures (for example,
the most recent vaccinations and dewormings). For traveling exhibitors,
information on any chronic or ongoing health problems and information on the
most current preventive medical procedures must accompany any traveling
animals, but the individual medical history records may be maintained at the
home site.


Euthanasia
The method of euthanasia must be consistent with the current Report of the
AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. Gunshot is not an acceptable method of routine
euthanasia for any animal. Gunshot as a routine method of euthanasia not only
endangers surrounding animals, buildings, and personnel, but it is likely to
cause distress to other animals. It should only be used in situations where
other forms of acceptable euthanasia cannot be used (such as emergency or
field conditions where the animal cannot be appropriately restrained) or in
cases where gunshot will reduce danger to other animals or humans. Only
personnel skilled in the use of firearms, using appropriate firearms, and familiar
with the "kill point" of an animal should perform the euthanasia. If the firearm
is not aimed so that the projectile enters the brain and causes rapid
unconsciousness and subsequent death without evidence of pain or distress,
this method does not meet the definition of euthanasia. (All State and local
laws relevant to gunshot must also be met.) 5

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/policy/policy3.pdf

Michael, would you care to provide us with scanned documentation that the venomoid surgeries performed on your animals were done by a licensed veterinarian? Can you provide a contact phone number for your vet? I'm sure you can if he's your relative as you claim. As Tanith mentioned, I find it VERY hard to believe any vet worth his credentials would perform this surgery on neonate snakes. Those are backyard butcher tactics. Care to backpeddle somemore? If you aren't willing to provide documentation on your story, I'm sure a few concerned members of this forum board might be looking into contacting the proper authorities in your area to inform them of your potential illegal activities, i.e. cruelty to animals. We anti-venomoiders always jump at the chance to get a butcher in contact with the long arm of Johnny Law. We have all of your ridiculous posts preserved here on Fauna if the need comes to draw on them. Anyone can see they are full of contradictions and back-peddling, which makes your story VERY suspicious...

I'm guessing providing proof that you are legally having these surgeries done is the only way you are going to close this can of worms you opened...

Oh and Michael, on your sig you state you have a mangrove and a copperhead, yet you stated on a post that you have no functionally venomous snakes...

Does this (and I'm holding my breath here) mean that you have a VENOMOID MANGROVE SNAKE??????????? If that's the case, you have reached a new low in venomoiders, I can't even recall the last time I saw or heard of a venomoid copperhead, much less a mangrove! You my friend, are simply pathetic.

where is ritchie "the ferret" luna when we need him.

I just saw something else.

Mike You posted a picture of Gregg M's Gaboon viper in the pic forum which i do beleive he has the copyright on. Gregg is a friend and that picture is his without doubt and without his permission to post it you would be violating copyright laws.

i thought someone said he was from oregon so i did a search there this is the link to that

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Fin...p=&state_id=OR

but i see how he is from virginia

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Fin...p=&state_id=VA

his birthday is
June 12, 1989

making him 15 (illegal)


i find this funny, as he is only a freshman in highschool at best

from his profile:
I Reasearch and breed Snakes for a living.

since he is only 15 im sure those searches are no good but it may be his mom and pop or it could be nothing. wish we had an IP on him might make it easier to pinpoint

Hey folks.....Instead of burning this kid. Why not try and help him understand his wrongdoings? Check his profile. He is only 15 years old. I had more common sense at his age, but come on. Hopefully we as responsible herpers help this kid understand without all the threats, name calling, etc. It's alot easier on someone without the knowledge to listen to folks who are not threatening and insulting. Hopefully he will listen!!!

Thanks-

BThacker