Something to ponder.....
 

Now, I am not going to say which way I fall on this issue until other people have comment, don't want to bias anyone.....it just happened to come to mind when reading over the venomoid related flamefest in the BOI. What if you could make your hot snake 100% no doubt safe with a painless needle full of a new med? Now this hypothetical drug cause no pain, has no side effects, no damage, and makes it 100% impossible to regenerate venom glands. Would you use it on your hots?

PS- Again, just an interesting thought to kick around.....not saying I would encourage it if it was possible.

Maybe you should turn that into a poll, just yes or no without arguing.

I'm hoping this can be a reasonable discussion, we're all adults right?

After reading that Venomoid thread on the BOI, I would highly doubt it.

I vote a resounding NO. There are a number of reasons for my vote, but I think I will not justify my response at this point in time. Let it speak for itself.

Anyone starts flaming I am going to start hitting the report post button, hopefully that will cause most to reconsider saying something really harsh. I think most of us are without a mental disease that causes us to get crazy.....therefore should be able to post like reasonable people.

Come on folks, lets hear your thoughts.

My View
 

Absolutely not! Mother Nature gave these magnificent creatures their venom and delivery apparatus for a reason and I think it is a crying shame to change them (although your hypothetical drug would certainly be an improvement over venomoid surgery!).

Without getting into a huge discussion, I would say that those wishing to possess venomous reptiles be throughly trained with lots of experience and those not willing to devote the time should stick with non-venomous species. My 2 cents worth.

Clif

Great answer, this is the type of dialog I am looking for in this thread.

NO! Though I agree that this would definitely be a major step up from the current method of "devenomizing" snakes, I still wouldn't do it or condone it. Some like it hot! :hot: :dgrin: :uzi: okay enough fun with the smilies ;)

I myself truly believe these animals were designed this way for a reason and it's above me to decide to change it, as easy as it would become hypothetically! just for the sake of someone wanting to handle it! After all the venom in these animals is what causes us to have to show the respect to them they deserve, is it not? Thanks for opening up this can of worms!

I would never change a hot. Its part of what they are. Would you like to be injected with something that made you sterile and impotent? Really it wouldn't hurt.

I put my $.02 in a while ago, but I am glad to see these responses. Somehow, I expected to see more of a response from "the other side". Once upon a time, I had a few devenomized snakes. I even used them in some educational programs (such as when I guest lectured for the Herpetology class at a local university - including a "lab" on how to work with venomous snakes. I demonstrated techniques for safely manipulating a variety of cobras, rattlesnakes, gilas, etc., including the use of tongs and hooks.) There was just no way I was going to let students I didn't know practice catching, manipulating, or containing techniques on real hots. One could argue that a kingsnake or other nonvenomous snake could have been substituted, but it certainly wouldn't have been realistic. Nothing behaves quite so much like a pi$$ed off rattlesnake as a pi$$ed off rattlesnake.
Anyway, I prefer my hots intact. Its just the way they are supposed to be. Not to come off as an adrenaline junkie or thrill seeker; but it just isn't the same when they can't fight back, so to speak. The end result is carelessness in handling, shortcuts, and unnecessary risk. (Yes, I know someone that was nearly killed by a 'void)
As to the hypothetical scenario posed (a harmless, effective, permanent way to cause the "disappearance or deactivation" of venom) - If I wanted a cornsnake, I would buy a cornsnake. When I want a cobra (rattlesnake, whatever), the same rule applies: This is what it is...if it isn't what you want, or you don't have the skills and knowledge to deal with it, DON'T BUY IT.

Sterile sure, impotent....no thanks. No kids for me please......I have enough kids with scales thanks.

I know its a month old, BUT...........
 

I had to say no.
I just believe they should be left natural. If you don't have the experience, or aptitude to learn safe handling of hots, you just should not own one.

Ciao,
Rick

Although I'm not as adamant about the void issue as some, I still don't approve of it. I personally can condone it in an instance such as Harald described where they were used as teaching tools. In these cases they would be professionally altered as well, not some kitchen table butcher job.
I agree you just can't adequately teach someone how to handle a hot by showing them with a kingsnake.
Beyond that though, there is no reason to do it in my opinion.

I voted no on the poll. I'm not an adrenaline junkie, heck, my rattlers I've had for years and have never physically touched them. There just hasn't been any reason to. I don't have the need to interact with my snakes like that, I keep them for what they are and that's enough reason for me to have them.
I do feel the venom plays a part in other aspects of the snake's existance though, particularly digestion. Sure they can still process their meals without envenomating it, but to remove the venom from the equation is taking that additional step away for no reason.

After hearing about the possible issues with venomous snakes digesting food I'd have to say no myself. Hadn't really thought of that in the past and didn't know it was an issue.

I hope i dont get ridiculed for this,
But i would use it if i had venomous snakes as long as it was FDA approved
and didnt harm the reptile any

Nope,

We were "Barred" from ridicule, or flaming anyway. :)

Ciao,
Rick

No room for ridicule in an intelligent debate. :)

true words those are.

From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
Or maybe someone could breed a genetic flaw in them so they wouldn't be venomous if thats possible,Lets face it Man has been tampering with natures animals for Centuries and far be it for me to tell him he cant as that usually just makes him want to do it more...lol
Just about ALL pets and livestock have been altered and with that tampering there are always negative effects,So i guess its just up to us how bad the effects are and whats acceptable
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate

From what I've heard it does cause them to have trouble digesting. Trouble digesting causes problems from the undigested food being there and the poor processing of nutrients. I've heard this shortens lifespan considerably.

Morphs like albinos (in captivity) won't cause any issues to the snake, no harm unless it was in the wild and easy for preds to find. Microchipping doesn't harm the animal at all. Descenting won't cause any problems that I know of on a captive animal though it might on a wild animal.

The problem is it would take a significantly large study group and many years to investigate the potential drawbacks to health in relation to digestion.
The point being it's something we're likely to never know completely.
While it's obvious that venom aids in digestion, it's only speculated that it may not be harmful. Considering that for eons venomous snakes have evolved to utilize that venom in the acquiring and digestion of prey, I feel that it's quite likely that their bodies can indeed suffer if the predigestive properties of the venom are removed.
Whether it's harmful or not to remove that factor from the equation is irrelevant to me, the fact that it is beneficial is enough reason to keep them venomous.
It might not harm the overall health of a snake to fail to provide a hidebox for instance, but many of them obviously prefer to use one, and they benefit from the available security of a retreat within the cage. The fact that being without one doesn't harm them isn't enough reason to avoid using one just to have less cage furniture to clean.
It hasn't been scientifically proven that limiting food intake to keep boas or burms at smaller sizes is directly detrimental to health or longevity, but that doesn't justify the practice just because someone wants a burm, but doesn't want an 18 foot snake.

I have long been an advocate of keeping reptiles for what they are, not what you want them to be. I would like to keep gaboon vipers, but for me personally I can't justify keeping that species in my home when compared to the relative risk associated with working with them. For this reason I admire them in other people's collections, but I have consented that I will most likely never own one.
We're not talking about declawing a house cat, or descenting a ferret to make them more enjoyable to live with. We're talking about the internal workings of an animal and it's digestive processes, something essential to life. The fact that the possibility exists that removing venom could be harmful to this, whether or not it has been demonstrated, should be enough reason not to risk doing it just so someone can own a dangerous animal without the danger part.

Venom serves 2 main purposes - 1) it subdues the prey in a manner which (usually) leaves the snake free from harm, and 2) it plays a huge role in digestion of prey, often beginning its work before the prey animal is eaten. This is especially true in viperid species with their highly cytotoxic venoms. What the venom does is literally destroy tissue by breaking down the cellular structures, making it very easy to process. Without it, the digestive process takes longer (which is not a huge issue in captivity because they aren't exposed to dangers as in the wild, but can lead to problems if the snake is handled/manipulated too soon after feeding). I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold. Aside from the digestion issue, a venomous snake without venom is unable to defend itself - this becomes an issue when some fool opts to toss in a live rat, or when (as instructed to do regularly in Venomoid Inc's certification) one is "testing" the effectiveness of the surgery.
Then, take into consideration the potential for harm in the case of a mishap. An acquaintance of mine was bitten by a "devenomized" black pakistan cobra. The onset of symptoms was fairly slow, taking place over several hours, but followed the expected course. he ended up being flown to a regional "snakebite center" and treated. I believe mechanical ventilation was necessary. He suffered longterm problems due to organ damage (liver, kidneys, and ?), not to mention motor function. These are 2 of the reasons I am opposed to 'voids. (the rest I pretty much posted earlier)

As for morphs, the negative effects are largely those caused by inbreeding. In the wild, these animals would have poor survival rates because they would stand out in their surroundings, making them easy targets. Microchipping, when properly done, does not harm the animal. I believe the biggest risk is of infection, and that is easily avoided with proper technique. And the descenting of ferrets, at least that is a surgical procedure...so at least closer to the basic idea. but the animals are anesthetized, and the surgery is done under sterile conditions. One of the major objections of adversaries of 'voids is the conditions under which the "surgery" is performed. another thread on here shows an example of one setup - it features a board, some nails and a rubber strap - I'll try to dig that up when I finish this. At one time (from what I have heard), the incision was made from the outside, but people didn't like the scarring. Now, the incision is inside the mouth. Historically, the snakes were not anesthetized, but strapped in place with a metal brace holding their mouths open. I know of at least one person that used to inject silicone to prevent the caved in head look (it was probably just silicone caulk). The mortality rate is huge, AND if you do a bit of reading on the subject, you will find that it is not a "simple" procedure. Veterinarians, that are familiar with reptiles and the anatomy/physiology of hots, that have performed the surgery on dead subjects, have commented on how difficult it was to isolate the gland (so as not to remove/damage other things) and that they would not feel comfortable performing this operation on a living subject. Yes, I understand that everything is learned, and that with practice, it may become a skill...perhaps even considered "simple" - but how many deaths are caused in the process? and why is this acceptable?
Yes, I am very against 'voids - but you will rarely see me ranting on the subject. people aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say, and I realize that. But I still say - if you don't want a venomous snake, or don't have the skills to "handle" it...DON'T BUY IT. If you want something that won't hurt you if you screw up, buy a cornsnake...or if you want more of a challenge, a redtailed ratsnake or a whitelipped python.

the pic I referred to above can be found here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=70570 post # 12 (sorry, I'm at work, so I can't save the pics and post them)

Ive read the same thing,But it says Aids in digestion.
I havent read anything saying it is essential to digestion,Im not saying you are wrong im saying that it hasnt been proven to me on either thread

That would be terrible,But couldnt it have been a number of things that caused this? Did you vet do a necropsy and tell you thats was why?

The best point on these threads,And is pretty much why i dont get one
Kinda defeats the purpose

Inbreeding effects more than just color,When strengthening a desired trait its a pretty safe bet that you are strengthening an undesired one too and is not just color

Microchipping is money driven and unneccessary in my oppinion

The same can be said about venomoids

I have already seen the picture that someone downloaded of the internet and posted on that other thread as an attack which anyone with a lick of sense would not be a party to,And i dont beleive that to be the norm i wouldnt take any of my pets to bubba's garage to get a surgery...lol...That is what i like to call misinformation

I respect your oppinion as well as others on this forum and hope that i will get the same respect
I believe the best way to change peoples minds is to show them proof and i have yet to see it on either side
I want to thank all of you for being civil in this matter it makes for a better learning experience

I never said inbreeding only affected color. what I said was that the negative effects in morphs are (for the most part) the ones that are caused by inbreeding. breeding within that close a gene pool, in order to reproduce a color or pattern, results in problems...results in weaker animals with genetic defects. Perhaps I should have spelled it out more clearly in my previous post. my comment on the low survival rate in the wild was more of a side note, I apologize for the confusion it caused.

then don't have your animals chipped. simple enough. but look at it this way - maybe it isn't "money driven"...maybe it is following the money. with the prevalence of animal theft, and microchipping being proof positive that the animal belongs to you - if you've got a snake that is worth several thousand dollars or more, don't you think it would be worth it to be able to verify ownership.


regardless of what you believe, the veterinarians that perform this surgery are few and far between. The first person I knew that did this was not a vet, and he performed the procedure in his home. keep in mind this was about 15 years ago. I have since encountered one other person that I know performed the procedure in his basement, and a person that claimed he devenomized snakes himself. I don't know for certain if it was true, but it was a statement that he made TO ME when I asked who devenomized a snake he was offering for sale locally (knowing what I know about this person, and the number of 'voids he offered, I was willing to believe). As for taking your pet to bubba's garage for surgery, most people that have 'voids buy them that way. WHY? because they don't have the skills to care for an intact hot, even for as long as it would take to get it to a vet for surgery...not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway. that point made, I commend them for recognizing this; as the last thing this hobby needs is even more negative press, and stupid people being bitten by snakes they shouldn't have...that is how all the legislation starts.

This is another interesting factor. Just for giggles, start calling around to vets - try to find one that will devenomize a banded egyptian cobra for you. Then, if you can find one ask how much it would cost.

One last thing, please note that I said they can digest prey without venom - but it takes longer. again, with the sheltered lives they lead in captivity, the extension of the digestive process is not a huge issue, as long as the keepers are aware of it and minimize handling and other stressors during this period. from what I recall, length of the total digestive cycle increased by 2-10 days (depending on the species) just from feeding prekilled vs live prey. this was due to the lack of circulation of the venom...the fact that it could only affect tissue where it was injected. I believe that the total absence of venom was shown to extend the process just a bit longer. There have also been some studies that seem to reflect less of an impact on digestive cycles with higher temperatures SO, if one was to elevate temps to the high end of normal range and maintain them there for a week or so after feeding, it may well negate the absence of venom. And personally, I have always recommended the feeding of smaller prey items to 'voids. (if ya gotta keep 'em, at least do it right)

one more last thing
 

Originally Posted by hhmoore
Response by dennis
It wasn't necessary, the putrefaction of prey due to slowed digestion is, or was at the time, known to be a problem with 'voids. I had the gaboon at low-mid normal temps when the swelling began (right where he had been since the beginning of his time with me, due to several regurges at slightly higher temps) , and increased it to mid-high normal when it was obvious what was happening (only a few hours after the swelling was noted). I was honestly hesitant to raise the temps at all, because my initial fear was that the rat would rot before he could digest it. My thoughts then turned to "oh crap, what if he tries to puke". I would happily have dealt with the consequences if it would have saved him...but as the process continued, it was obvious that if he regurged that thing, he would likely die in the process.

This is actually getting somewhere. :)

I've only ever found one site (unfortunately, I've lost it :hot: ) that shows any "definative proof", that venomous snakes "need" that venom. Speaking primarily of Hemotoxic venoms here. It has been shown that some of your highly Neurotoxic venoms contain little or no evidence of the phospholipase A2 enzymes (pla2). I have however, found more sites to support this belief, than sites that discount it.

Was talking with Brian Smith over the weekend just past, (trying to find that lost article :hot: ) and he is co-authoring an article on this very same subject. It will be out soon, and I'm sure He will let it be known on the forums when it is finalized.

Here is My theory on this subject..........
Ever since time the animal world has "evolved" to adapt for specific needs. Fish grew lungs, snakes lost their legs, chameleons are able to camoflauge, some venoms travel faster than your blood does,(via nerve cells) Etc, Etc, Etc.
I believe the PLA2 enzyme (the main part of this necrosis) is part of this evolution. Evolved to help "aid" in digestion (for whatever reasons). Knowing that most evolution occurs do to "necessity" for survival, I would tend to believe that it is a necessity. I don't believe the animal world evolves for NO reason. Nature is just that way.

But as suggested, it would take many long term studies to prove this. Like two litter mates, one voided, and one natural, and study them intently in order to prove this. I believe the voided one will not live as long a life, nor reach it's maximum potential size, maybe even some health problems depending on idividual species.

There are many things that support that other side also. Most of that so called proof has involved snakes that are primarily neurotoxic. IMO the ones who carry primarily neuro's never had a need to evolve those necrotic properties in their venom. Else they would adapt, or evolve, to overcome the problem.

But hey, I COULD be wrong. I'm no doctor. Not a scientist either. I'm just a dumb OPHIOPHILIAC who has been interested in venom, and venomous things for a long time. I've read as much as I could about them.
But someone would have to "prove" me wrong, and by so doing, will answer all of our questions. LOL


Micro chipping..........No harm done. My albino has one. had it for 4 years. I paid alot for her in 99, and thought it worth the extra $120. She never did show any ill effects. My last two Pitts had them also, and me Mastino that my X managed to steal in the divorce.

hhmoore,
Great post's. Spoken with intelligence, and some unfortunate experience. I enjoyed reading those.

Ciao,
Rick

Thanks, it's been awhile since I actually seriously got into that discussion. But once the button was pushed :>poke2<: it started coming back to me. :rofl: Where's Gregg when we need him? (I think I'll drop him a line, invite him to the party)

I was just trying to make the similarities


I wont do it and i wouldnt mind if others do


I cant argue with your logic
If someone is doing this in their garage or basment or just unsanitary conditions then they are wrong if its a trained professonal in sanitary conditions then who knows

I was thinking about getting an albino monocled and if i were to get it devenomized (Not saying i will...lol)then i wouldn't be because of lacking skill it would be an extra precaution for those unforeseen circumstances
When they breed what happens to the babies?


I hope I'm not going to be misunderstood in this matter
I just want to make it clear that i am not a Genius ..lol and never had a venomoid, I am still undecided as no one gave me proof that it is detrimental to the snakes health and if someone gave me definite proof i would then be decided against it!

I'm not misunderstanding, but I obviously don't have the "proof" you seek. Admittedly, I have been out of the venomous sector for some time now, and haven't kept up with the research and who's doing what...but my feelings on the subject are obviously unchanged. You are obviously free to do what you like. If you opt for a 'void, do some research on the seller...particularly who does the surgery. Get paperwork signed by the vet that performed the procedure (that clearly states they performed the procedure...not just that the snake is devenomized), but treat it as if it was hot anyway. Keep it well, and keep it safely. Don't let either of you become statistics.

As for what happens to the babies - you either keep them and raise them, or you sell them. Seriously, If you are asking what I think you are asking :no01:, the babies WILL be venomous...the change to the animals is physical, not genetic, so their offspring will be intact (think of dogs with cropped ears...the babies come out with big floppies)

Still Undecided
 

I dont want one untill they get that hypothetical medicine...lol
But that doesnt make me against them

LOL... that was real funny^^^
If the venomoids have babies it would make sense to go look for a vet to perform the surgery if they dont have the "skills" necessary to handle hots?

No, no, and NO again !!! It seems horribly irresponsible to me to have animals that have to be surgically altered, just to maintain them.
Perhaps we should draw out the teeth of Lions in the zoo ??? Cut off the arms of the Orang-Utans ? Ridiculous.
When you learn how to handle a venomous snake, it is no longer a danger...just don't slip up. (or down, as the case may be.)

greg

Hello everyone....

To answer the original question, I ofcorse have to say NO!!! For me, there is nothing to ponder..... When I got into keeping hots, I never even thought about ever altering them to make them "safe"..... The way to keep them safely is to aquire knowledge and experiance in safe handling and housing..... No need to rip into an animals head if you follow proper protocol..... Apparently, people who are into voids are too lazy and are lacking the knowledge and experiance to keep these animals safely.... I have been keeping venomous species for 12 years and have not been bitten.... I dont plan on getting bitten but I plan for it...... Meaning I have the proper protocol and AV on hand just incase.....

I do not believe in that old saying "its not if you get tagged, its when you get tagged".... I happen to believe if you are careful enough and experianced enough you can keep these creatures relatively safely.....

On to few thing I read in the thread.....

First thing I want to touch on is the de-scenting thing..... I will not keep ferrets because I think they stink..... If you cant deal with them the way they are, you should not keep them.....

I would never de-claw a cat or crop a dogs ears.... I have a cat and she is full of claws.... If I was not able to deal with her clawing the sofa, I would have never gotten her....

So what I am saying is, if you cant keep a fully intact venomous species, you should stick to the naturally non-venomous species.....

I am not too sure what micro chipping or morphs have to do with this thread..... But here are my thoughts....

Microchipping is fine with me..... Nothing wrong with protecting you investments.....

Morphs are a part of nature.... Like it or not, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in wild populations.... Especially isolated ones..... There are even such things as locality spacific recessive morphs..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant morph in a spacific local..... Inbreeding is tabboo in human populations..... Nature does not follow our religions or go by our ethics.... Venomous snakes do not have their venom glands ripped out of their head in nature.... The few venomous snakes that might be born without the proper delivery system will die from starvation.....

It has also been proven that venomous snakes need their venom to properly digest their food to a certain extent.... It is not need to digest the food, but it is need to advance the process especially in vipers.... Ever wonder why some venomous snakes venom is so necrotic??? If you are bitten by a gaboon or puff, you will lose a massive amout of tissue in a very short period of time....

Take gaboons for example.... They have very slow motabolisms and live in cool, humid jungles.... In the wild, I am certain that their venom plays a big roll in their digestion.... Sure, you can void one and turn up the heat in its enclosure, but you will be doing damage to the animal in two ways.... First you are cutting its head open to take out the glands.... Second you are seriously stressing the snake out by turning up the heat.... They evolved to live and thrive in a certain temp range (high 70s low 80s) and you would be taking that from them as well.... That in itself is enough to shorten their life span considerably..... So is heating up the voided snake the answer or is not voiding them in the first place the answer???? I will go with not voiding them....

You can see what type of people are into voids just by looking on this BOI....

Uneducated
Ignorant
Inexperianced
Untrustworthy
And a few other choice words that I cant say here....LOL

There are only about two or three vets around that I know of that will do a void job.....

90% of what you see for sale on the classifieds are done by inexperiance, unlicensed individuals that could care less about the animals.... They just want the cash.... It does not matter to them how many snakes the kill in order to get one void to live.....

Gregg,

Once again you did an excellent job of posting your opinion which is consistent with my thoughts and feelings as well.

A few questions come to mind and by no means am I trying to dispute what you said, but more to provide food for thought.

To sum up, you say you are opposed to altering animals to suit a keeper's needs. Is your cat spayed/neutered? Are you opposed to such procedures? The real reason most keepers neuter male cats is not so they will not reproduce, at least not indoor cats, but rather so they will not pick up the annoying habit of spraying the house. Similarly, most keepers of indoor cats do not want their kitties going into heat and crying out all night looking for a male. Now I know there are some potential health benefits to such procedures, but for that argument to hold, we should all get "neutered" after having any children that we want to have so as to avoid prostate enlargement and cancer, and reduce our risk of coronary disease. Any takers? :rofl: Similarly, maybe we should have out wives and girlfriends "spayed" to prevent ovarian and uterine cancer, and to reduce the risks of breast cancer. Given a choice between my salivary glands and my gonads, I know which I'd choose to keep.

All that said, I am opposed to creating venomoids for most of the same reasons that you are. The procedures are generally performed by unqualified individuals and have terrible results. And keeping a venomoid is like keeping a gun that is unloaded...or so you think it is. I don't *play* with unloaded guns, and I don't *play* with venomous animals.

My other questions concern Helodermatidae. These are the only venomous animals that I keep, and they would never be voided, but the best science that I have read is that their venom is only used for defensive purposes. So the biological need is not there in captivity. They are easy to handle safely with proper precautions and so if someone wanted to risk putting a $1000 animal through unnecessary surgery, crazy as it might be, it likely would have no adverse biological effect. I would never expose an animal to that risk. Nor would I want my animals disfigured just for that purpose.

My main objections to removing the venom system in any reptile is the same as yours. If you are not qualified to handle a "hot" animal then there are other choices. If zoos kept a few voids around for teaching purposes (that is to teach safe handling of venomous animals to prospective owners) I could see that as a legitimate use of such animals. Of course that assumes that they acquired the animals as rescues and did not create them solely for that purpose. In order to get a CWP in Virginia one has to take a handgun safety course. We were "taught" with unloaded weapons until we went into the firing range. My pistol, however, is always loaded except when I have just been shooting (at the range) or when I am cleaning it.

Jim I wish I had the answer for everything but I am only human....LOL I will try to answer your questions the best I can....

My cat is fixed or broken.... How ever you want to look at it.... She was fixed before I got her but I do believe in that particular operation....

1) it is alway done by a licensed vet....
2) it keeps a bunch of kittens or puppies from being born that can not get homes and are either let loose on the streets or killed because there is no more room at the shelters....
3) it does lengthen the animals life span and cats and dogs that are fixed are healthier....

As far as Heloderms go, they are not my forte but I do know a little about them and have read that their venom is used primarily for defence.... No matter what the venom is used for, I cant see cutting one open to lower the risk factor..... You lower the risk factor considerably by getting proper training, knowledge, and experience.... I would still be opposed to the operation even if they do not use venom for digestion..... Just think how funny a gila would look without is venom glands....LOL Look at what venomoid gaboons look like.... It kind of reminds me of a deflated balloon....

Like you Jim, my 9mm is always loaded.... The only time it cant be loaded is on the way to and from the range.... I don't have a carriers permit....LOL Which is a good thing because there are a lot of a-holes on the road where I live....LOL

My snakes however, are loaded 24/7 and I would not have it any other way....

I brought that up because they are both surgeries(microchipping & devenom..)


Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol
Seriously though im sure there is inbreeding in nature somewhere but We can probably contribute that to man or major catastrophy


I am not saying you are wrong but where can i find the proof?


Im not sure if this is directed at me? But if it is i would like to keep this civil
I came here looking for information but have yet to find it