Drew Lambeth- Curio Creatures
 

I really did not want to have to post this, but Drew has forced my hand.

In December 2009, my significant other and I decided to rehome some snakes we had purchased with breeding goals in mind that no longer fit with our plans. We went out of our way to select the very best homes for these animals, going so far as to turn down a few people we were not convinced would provide good homes. Our ad stated that we wanted good forever homes for our snakes and that we'd be picky about who they went to.

Drew was a friend on the forums and a local guy and we were elated that he was interested in two of our snakes- a hypo lav female for $125 and a ghost female* for $25. We were asking $25 for the ghost female because we had bought her from a Craigslist ad and did not know her breeding history, nor did we ever have a confirmed sex on her... i.e. she was NOT proven. We were upfront and honest about this as can be seen on our ad on the Insider's Forum at CornSnakes.com. If need be I can post a screen shot of that ad.

My inlaws live about 2-2.5 hours from Richmond, VA, which is where Drew lives, and we agreed to meet Drew at Port Royal, which was slightly out of our way, but closer for him. We took both snakes with us for a weekend visit a Christmas when it was very cold, heated them as best we could at my inlaws and left their house very early Sunday in order to make it to Port Royal to meet Drew. We arrived with about 15 minutes to spare at our meeting point. After 1/2 hour, I called Drew to see where he was, if he was close. He did not answer. Several minutes later he calls back and tells me he is "So sorry," he overslept and please for us not to think he is a flake. So we drive back home with the snakes after having gone out of our way to bring the snakes to him on a holiday weekend. I wanted to call off the deal right then, I was so angry, but Tara spoke with Drew that week and arranged to ship the snakes.

We shipped them down to Drew and all went well with the shipping. He seemed happy with the transaction. A few days later I get a message on Facebook that said he thought the ghost was a male. I said "That really sucks... she was sold to us as a female, and I'm sorry." He said "It's cool, I can find something to pair her with I'm sure." We didn't hear anything else about the transaction.

A few weeks go by and I happen to look at Drews website and he has the male ghost for sale. I was a little irritated by this because we had spoken to him as friends about our desire for a forever home for the snake, but I do acknowlege that once purchased the snake is his to do what he wants with.

That being said, I was even more angry that he had taken one of OUR photos from our ad to use to sell the snake he purchased for $25 for $125. We sent him a PM asking about the sale and he denied that it was our snake. When Tara pointed out that it was OUR photo, which is very distinct because of the background we use, he then became sulky and said he'd "take the ad down."

Now this weekend, my mother in law, who, as I said, lives near Richmond, happened to be browing Craigslist pet ads and found this and showed it to us when we came down, saying "Hey, isn't this your background in the photo? Is this snake yours?"

So yet again, for the third time, Drew has said one thing and done another. Our dealings with him have been fraught with lies, dishonesty and broken trust and I don't want anyone else to have this happen to them. If he cannot be trusted to not use other people's material without their permission, then his business dealings also cannot be trusted.

Here is Drew's ad:
http://richmond.craigslist.org/pet/1702970944.html

The photos on grey fur are our photos. I have the original copies of them and they are also still on my iHerp page for Demi, the snake in question.

I am including a screen shot of that ad in case he deletes it, along with a copy of the PMs we have sent back and forth since he initially used our photo to list the snake for sale. I am also including a link to our iHerp page for Demi that shows the original photos we took. We have sent him an email about it.

I want to state again, emphatically, that I do NOT begrudge him the fact that he is selling a now-extra male snake, even though I do feel that by doing so he went back on part of our sale terms, and that does affect the way I personally feel about him as an individual and as a former friend.

I fully understand that the snake is his to sell to whomever he wants, however he wants.

I would never have posted this if Drew hadn't stolen our photos to use in his sale of this snake, not once even, but TWICE without giving us due credit and against out wishes, as you can clearly see in the PMs.

http://www.iherp.com/HerpTrack/MyAni...AnimalID=15364

Have you made him aware of this thread. I'd love to hear his reasoning behind using stolen images

I will do so via PM at CornSnakes. We sent him an email through Craigslist asking why he is still trying to use our photos. He has not responded, but it's only been a bit over a day.

As one further note... I know that Craigslist is anonymous theoretically, but I know that this post was either by Drew or someone he knows, because the other photo in there is of the box we sent her in and the pink pillowcase she was wrapped in.

I am going to PM him now.

He should not be using your images. I had a similar experience recently when I sold someone a hognose snake and then when she decided to sell it about a year later she used my photo. Funny thing is that this person would throw a FIT if someone else did that to her (used one of her images without permission). LOL Anyway, there really is not much you can do about it except perhaps email Craigslist or wherever he is using the photo without your permission, to let them know, and email him again to demand he stop using your photo without permission.

However, judging by your pm's to him, it seems to me that you are most upset with the face that he is selling the snake at all. Frankly that's a bit hypocritical as you yourself did not give the snake a "forever home" because your breeding goals changed or whatever. Plans change, snakes get sold. It's a part of the hobby.

Kelli, you are free to believe whatever you want, as am I. I clearly stated in this post that I would not have posted here regarding him selling the snake had he not stolen and used our images to attempt to do so.

I'll state again, the snake is his to sell. The photos are NOT his to use. Therein lies my issue.

I agree with Kelli. :shrug01: On the surface, that's what you are saying, "it's about the pictures." However, it's quite odd, that you mentioned the pictures in the emails exactly ONE time, and the fact that you were upset about him selling the animal several times and even made a blotched attempt to pick up said animal.

I think you should be honest with yourself, you are ticked off that he didn't keep his word, and a little upset that he's using your pictures to help sell a snake that he promised to keep forever.:shrug01:

It may be all jumbled inside you and you may be justifying your anger..you are RIGHT to be upset about your pictures being used..but you (just from reading the emails) appear more upset about him selling the animal.

Let me say for the record, he should not be using pictures that do not belong to him to sell the animal. This technically could qualify as "misrepresentation" if the animal no longer looks like the image in the pics (weight loss, scars, illness, etc).

I have never dealt with Drew on a business level, and never will.

One experiance I had with him on a personal level made sure of that, and it happened before this incident did with Lauren and Tara. Let's just say that he does not seem especially choosy about the company he keeps.

I am actually not upset about this. Whippet is my GF, Tara, and yes, she was upset about that particular aspect of the deal because she felt that she had a verbal agreement with Drew that was not honored. I would never have brought that to the BOI, nor would Tara... that is something that is to be hashed out person to person.

I knew that posting the entire series of PMs would open us to criticism in this regards and I am fine with that. It is what it is, and I won't dispute that. The PMs, to me, show that Drew did use our image the first time, on his personal sight, and then attempted to lie about it and say it wasn't our snake photo. :shrug01: To me that speaks volumes about his character, and I felt others should have a chance to read and judge for themselves. As I said... take from it what you will.

Personally, once I put pictures up on the net, I consider them public property. If you don't want other people to use your pictures, the only way to ensure that they won't, is to not send them out or put them where everyone can see. Really it's not worth worrying about, JMHO.

a picture posted on the net may be publicly used, buuuut cannot be claimed as your own property and its highly frowned upon (if not illegal) to use someone else's picture to try and sell goods that are in your possession, as it is highly misrepresenting even if its the same object or animal...I don't feel like looking it up but I'm sure there is some copy right protection or even fraud protection on things like that

I dont get the point of this thread.
He's using pics that arent his, but the animal IS in his possession...soooooooooooooo


1) He's not scamming anyone.
2) It's his snake.

I dont know if that warrants a bad guy thread.

On a side note though...forever home ehh? Sounds Mormon. LDS snakes w00t.

Where did he get the photos from? Was there a disclaimer stating the photographers rights regarding the said photo(s)? Most of your rights regarding photos are waived once they hit the net without and disclaimers etc... Copyright infringement would be assuming that you actually have a copyright on the photograph itself. As far as I can tell, there didnt seem to be any type of marking whatsoever on the photo(s) in question, unless I am more blind than I think I am.

As for him selling the snakes, you said you had a verbal "contract"/agreement? Was that agreement also contigent on the snakes gender as well? I know that I would be personally disappointed if I received a male when I was expecting a female, but I would think that the general consensus would be that he now owns the snakes and can do whatever he wants with them.

It sucks that he is flipping your snakes but, once you sold them, you subject them to that.

Flag the ad on craislist. I think if it gets 20 flags, it will be removed.

I had a similiar situation, rehoming 2 snakes with a verbal agreement. A scant few weeks after rehoming them, the exact 2 snakes appeared on CL and the seller ignored my phone calls and emails.
So I can sympathize for the betrayal of trust. The use of Lauren's pics is just the stinger, and that should be frowned upon.

Seems a bit opportunist and somewhat immoral but a little short of a deserving a badguy thread.

Photograph
 

Just because an image is placed on the net, does not mean it then becomes free to copy. The person who took the photograph is automatically granted all copyright.

There are three common instances, though, where there are exceptions to this;

1 - Any work done under the scope of employment. For example, a newspaper owns all rights to the photographs that were taken by their staff (there must be some prior written agreement where the photographer relinquishes all rights under work-for-hire).

2 - The item being photographed has its own "copyright." Basically, lets say I go to your facility, Dean. Then I photograph your animals. I can NOT sell posters (for example) of MY photographs, because they are of YOUR property (that is, of course, unless you give me permission).

The following exception applies to this situation...
3 - Fair use. If there is a GOOD reason why your photo is being used by someone else, then you're out of luck. In this case, the animal in Lauren's photograph, now belongs to Drew. A judge can rule either way...he/she can uphold the infringement as justified, or not.

If Lauren takes Drew to court...Drew will inherently have to admit to copyright infringement. He then has to give a very good reason for why hes using the photo. Its all up to the judge from there.

The above, however, is negligible if void of any enforcement. Lauren, are you going to take Drew to court? I don't think so...its not worth the money/time/head ache.

Drew, at the end of the day there is something called integrity. You MUST ALWAYS ask for permission...if you're denied, then don't use the photo. Take your own picture and call it a day...why cause all this nonsense?

The following is a great article explaining certain aspects of copyrights and infringement...

http://www.llrx.com/features/bloggersbeware.htm

First Hand
 

This is obviously extreme hypocrisy at work. I am Drew's roommate. When this woman sold him a snake that was incorrectly sexed, and did not fit into our breeding plan, he offered to RETURN it. This person, who is SOO worried about her snake having a 'forever' home should have taken her snake back. Instead, she refuses. It is obviously is not about the snake. Her main issue of contention was that it would be sold for MORE THAN SHE SOLD IT FOR. Capitalism fail on her part lol.

Then, this other person replying to the thread, who I will not name, also got into a FACEBOOK name calling war with Drew and his friends over a joke that we were having - specifically, we were upset that a raggedy dude with mental issues called us "Fucking Cocksuckers". We laughed about this, and a friend jokingly suggested setting him on fire. This woman became so incensed over the idea that we go around setting the homeless on fire, that Drew became her Arch Nemesis. It really was quite comical. This is why I tell him not to get involved with people from Craigslist, and online forums. They are 90% of the time mentally instable because they do not leave the confines of a chair for days on end.

There is more to the world than the internet people. And when you start name calling and making insane accusations, especially regarding their BUSINESS, you approach a borderline Slander and Libel situation.

Everyone just RELAX. The world is not ending.

First, the ad has been removed. Unfortunately, I was away from my office all weekend and only now just saw this.

Help me understand this. I'm a bad guy, because I bought a snake that you mis-sexed, and now don't need it. First you got mad that I was selling him. Then, you got mad because I was asking so much for him....should I give him away for a paltry $25? I believe you said in your email that I received this morning that I shouldn't "sell a snake on craigslist to any idiot who comes by."

Oh that's right, it's the pictures. I'M SORRY. I took the ad down off Craigslist, and I will take my own pictures. Honestly, I don't see why it's such a big deal seeing as how you don't have the snake anymore. Whatever, deleted.

Now let's get to the heart of the matter. You are probably wishing you didn't sell me this snake. That's fine. In one of our PM conversations I even offered to send him back to you. You declined. Understand that for me, this is a business. If an animal doesn't fit into my breeding colony because he was mis-sexed as a female, it doesn't make financial sense to me to keep and feed him. I'm sorry if that's not how YOU choose to deal with YOUR pets, but when you sold this animal to me, it was no longer YOUR pet.

That said, I really don't like that this transaction went so terribly wrong. What EXACTLY would you like to see happen here? (Other than continue to send me PMs / Emails berating me, demanding that I take pics down, etc.) I guess you want me to give the snake "a forever home"? Unfortunately, as I said, that's not going to happen because the snake turned out to be male and not female. Would you like me to send him back? No, you already refused that. Would you like to find someone local to me to take him? Heck, just have them email me and it's done. At this point, I'd like to be RID of him so you'll leave me alone.

On another note, the other snake I got from you....the "aggressive one"....whom apparently you aren't concerned with at all since you haven't mentioned her one time...is doing fine.


*********************

Oh, and Bethany...while your willingness to jump on the bandwagon here is comical at best, you leave out the fact that the real reason you dislike me soooooo much is because one of my FACEBOOK FRIENDS called you a bad name. That's it.

It was not only that Drew. He called me what he called me, and instead of at least telling him that he was in the wrong for using *that* word, you decided to defriend me because I "didn't get your humor". That pretty much condoned what he said, and showed me (and a few others) something about your character. Like it or not, you are judged by the company you choose to keep.

Yes Bethany, I defriended you on Facebook.....and apparently you think that gives you license to "watch" my forum activity....and post snide comments about me whenever possible. Get a life!

So my point is that since you agree that any woman who disagrees with you should be called *that * word, why would ANY woman (or decent man for that matter) want to do business with you when there are plenty of NICE people around who don't condone that sort of behaviour from their friends?


Maybe the way you treated Lauren and Tara deserves a badguy thread.
Maybe it doesn't.
But your lack of character and the way you conduct yourself sure puts you in that category.

Oh, does anyone remember that thread from tyflier (Chris Morrisson) about the pictures stolen from him and used by a club?

Yes, I am friends with people who say bad words. Guilty as charged.

Any woman who disagrees with Drew should be called a 'name'? Seriously WHERE do you come up with this stuff? You are making this strange fantasy hatred scenario in your head. Drew can not censor anyone else's language on the internet, and he didn't KNOW YOU well enough to jump to your 'internet defense'. You were acting very bizarrely, maybe his friend overreacted using such a 'naughty' word, but you really were taking things out of context. If you can not take a bad word, the internet is no place for you. Make sure you set your AOL Language Filter on High, because those words exist. They should hold no power over you, don't let them. They are just words.

She's referring to the name Josh called her on Facebook.

On another note, this thread is not about Bethany....so I won't be responding to her foolishness anymore.

If he had had the character to say something like "hey guys, lighten up. Sorry about that" it would have made ALLLLLLLLLLLLL the difference in the world. But such a thing seems to be beyond his capabilities.

That's ok Drew. I feel better now that it is out in the open. People can read it and decide for themselves.

Drew, all that we are asking is that you not use our photos. It's a VERY simple request. Please don't do it, and neither myself nor Tara will ever contact you again.

Thank you for taking down the ad.

Lauren, happy to oblige. The two photos I downloaded from cornsnakes.com have been deleted from my computer.

In re-reading the original post....I'd like to point out a few things.

First, the pic of the snake with the white cloth background...that's a pic I took the morning they arrived. The filename is even 0113001218.jpg, which is the date stamp from my phone, which I used to take the pic.

Secondly, I am just as unhappy with the way things worked out as you are. I also think you WAAAY overreacted in posting this thread. I posted the ad on craigslist from my work computer and was away from the office all weekend. I arrive at work Monday morning and get an email from Tara with the subjest "Take the pictures down NOW!", another email from someone else in OH...whom I believe also posted here....a PM on CS.com about how I "forced your hand"...and this thread. Geez. You have my phone number, you could have called or texted me and I would have immediately deleted the ad. You posted the pics on a public forum, I downloaded them when we were discussing me buying the snakes. I didn't even think about it when I posted the CL ad Friday....which in hindsight was a mistake. I just used the only three pics I have of the snake.

I'm sorry that this deal didn't work out. I'm sorry that we have different viewpoints about our hobbies. I'm sorry that the snake was a male and not a female. I'm sorry I used your pics without permission. I'm also sorry that your original post paints me as a terrible villain. While I'm a bit air headed at times, I do try to be honest and trustworthy. I really don't like that all this happened, and I don't like people thinking ill of me.

Drew, we are sorry it worked out this way too, and also sorry "she" turned out to be a "he," however, we did state in the original ad and in subsequent talk that the gender on her was unproven, and you did get the adult snake for $25. I hope you can find a place for him where he will be useful to someone, if not in a breeding plan then as an interesting pet.

If you had not used the same photos a second time, I would never have posted this and bygones would have been bygones. I don't mind people using our photos if they credit us, but come on, man, I teach my 14 year old high school kids that taking a photo, even off the internet, and reusing it for your own means is plagiarism. If 14 year olds know that, you should too.

Thank you for removing our photos.

I understand the plagarism thing, seriously I do. I can understand if I was posting the pics somewhere like "Hey guys look at these awesome pics I took!", but on a for-sale ad, I didn't really think about it. Sorry. I really didn't see it as "taking credit" for them, but I certainly won't make that mistake again.

Mike Welsh....as a heads up for your future in posting on this website....even when your simply quoting something that some else said...please watch you language...your very first post here had some very unacceptable words for the BOI

as for this situation....it seems to be as solved as its going to be...so let it rest