Venomoids, the right and the wrong.
 

I've been a constrictor keeper for about 20 years now. Recently considering a hot/venomoid so i've done quite a bit of research, forum searching etc. This is my point of view that i'd like to share.
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opions.... there's a saying i'm sure everyone is familiar with. "Opinions are like @assholes, everybody has one".

I'm not jumping on either side of the boat because if i did, it would simply be my opinion. What's right to a person is determined about how they "feel" about the topic. I hate to break it to ya but "feelings" are generated (aka made up) by you. Some people "feel" offended by some things that others "feel" is something stupid to be offended by.

Bottom line is we (humans) are king of the jungle. Modern medicine has gone a long way and it's going to continue to get better as time goes on. To say venomoid is just wrong and shouldn't be performed is a bit extreme. If it can be done people are going to do it, that's how it works.

So if a person wants a breed of snake that is naturally venomous but doesn't want to take the risk of dieing when he/she gets bit.. well it makes perfect sense. But how that person goes about having the snakes capability to produce/inject venom is what this topic should be about.

The Wrong?
Having glands, venom sack etc removed by a non licensed individual with no medicine to ease the pain is simply wrong. Now you may say "that's your opinion" and your right. But i'm not going to have my teeth pulled or a knee replacement surgery done by some guy in a garage with no license and no medicine.

The Right?
Having the procedure done by a licensed reptile surgeon. The snake treated for pain before and after surgery. Removing the entire venom apparatus, including the glands. Replacing them with medical grade implants to fill the area where venom glands were removed.

Some of you may be familiar with that information because it's nearly word for word from Venomoidinc.

So let's get passed the whole "venomoids are right or wrong" and move on. Things change because humans change them. If there's a will there's a way and that's why modern medicine has evolved to the level it has today. I have a saying, "If it's worth doing, do it right" and for that I give venomoidinc 100% support on what they are doing. It may not be for everyone, that's all about having a choice in how to live your life.

There are people not only on this forum but all over that ask about having the venom removed. Instead of being an extremist why not point them in the right direction and show them the right procedure vs the wrong. It's a lot more effective then just saying "it's not ethical, venom grows back" etc.

That's my $.02

I'm sure the good doctor appreciates your efforts at promoting and advertising his business :rolleyes_

[quote=ScottyPimpin;845952]I've been a constrictor keeper for about 20 years now. Recently considering a hot/venomoid so i've done quite a bit of research, forum searching etc. This is my point of view that i'd like to share.
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I hate to break it to ya but "feelings" are generated (aka made up) by you."



These are your feelings right? :confused:

[quote=Helenthereef;846234]After 432 posts you'd think a person would learn how to use the quotes correctly.... Why don't you try reading the entire post before you pick apart the very beginning and try to comment on it.

This is a forum so i know they don't test your education level before letting you in as a member. So let me summarize my post just in case it's too much for you to read.

Summary
There are proper ways and safe ways of making a venomous snake a venomoid. The snake handling community should help those interested in a venomoid by pointing them in the right direction for the procedure.

To answer your smart ass comment, read the very bottom of my post where it says That's my $.02

Well, Mr Carrying Some Kind of Chip on Your Shoulder, you botched the quote tags, too
Why should the snake handling community direct people toward your selected vendor - or any other - if they disagree with either the process or the end result?

Lol... I apologize ahead of time for the controversial comparison, can't think of anything else right now...

"Eugenics is totally safe, as long as you only let certain people decide which genes are deleterious or not! Instead of always telling people who are asking about it to go read a book, why not direct them to a proper genetics counselor, so they can weed out genes they dislike safely! Changes only occur because humans deign them to occur, it is our divine right as the ALMIGHTY MASTER RACE! Just my $.02"

I tell you what. Doctors make mistakes all the time. Are you ready to put your life in a vets hands.......................... There is probably not one soul against this more then I. I have seen this said vendor FREEHANDLE gaboons at a certain show. At a SHOW! BS if you ask me.

Your right to a certain extent, humans do make mistakes. I'm sure if the doctor was just making an incision to the glands it is possible and i nor most people would trust it. It's hard to make a mistake when your removing the entire apparatus, but i'm far from a Dr so that's just me picturing it the best I can. But lets not forget that practice makes perfect, you'll always get better and more accurate the more you do something, that is a fact.

Your saying that the vendor i mentioned (venomoidinc) FREEHANDLE a venomoid they performed the procedure on at a show... I don't see how this is a bad thing. It's very bold but it shows how certain they are and how much they trust their own procedure.

Scott - are they paying you a commission for every time you post the business name someplace? Are you in any way associated with them? If not, why are you plugging them so hard?

No i'm not associated with them in any way. The reason i mention their name is because they are the only ones I know of that perform this type of procedure in the manner they do. From the beginning i've been trying to talk about the procedure in general using modern medical technology. Unfortunately there is no one else that does it that i'm aware of.

I'm not interested in engaging in yet another intact vs venomoid discussion - you have your opinion, and you are welcome to it...but labeling me an "extemist" because I don't advocate the procedure is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

I was attempting to use the word extreme or extremist as an example of the 2 completely different sides. One side only wants one thing and won't budge to change and the other side being the same but with their opposite point of views.

I'm not here to make enemies and if i offended you, i apologize. I'm just looking for some middle ground between the two sides.

That kind of careless disregard is why I have not gone to shows that allow venomous.

I'm not anti hot either. I think that they are beautiful & perfectly fine for responsible trained people to keep.

If I ever decide to purchase one, it will not be from people who publicly demonstrate unsafe handling practices.

I don't consider myself an extremist. Maybe...that's a big maybe...Venomoid inc. can guarantee their procedure, but how do they back it up? Money back guarantee if one of our venomoids kills you? If you haven't already watched the video, check it out on youtube. 2 of 3 venomoid cobras give venom. This is not a risk I'd ever be willing to take, and I don't care how good the surgeon is.

Also, free-handling a hot at a show sends a very bad message to others out there. It says venomoids are safe, and that they can be handled just like anything else. Well, for argument's sake, what if Venomoid Inc. is the only company that does the procedure properly? Did their representative hold up a big sign telling people they could only do that with a venomoid they had created? No, his actions said "venomoids are safe". That's irresponsible behavior if I've ever seen it!

I don't really want to debate the venemoid subject, I have done so previously on other forums. But I will say this. Surgeries are done to save lives or improve the quality of life. These are not surgeries but mutilations of the animals. There is no benefit to these operations for the animals, and people who admire them for what they are would never do such a thing. There are far too many non venomous snakes out there for people wanting pets. What next? Cut of a monitors tail so you can fit it in a smaller cage? When you have to mutilate an animal to keep it you are going against the very basic tenets of proper husbandry, fulfilling the animals needs. Such behavior is reprehensible and tantamount to when runaway slaves were hobbled in an effort to prevent them from escaping. If one does not have the capabilities to properly care and house animals then they shouldnt have them.

That may have been your intent, but what you said was
That pretty much says that your side is right, and the other one is wrong.
You are correct, though, in that the two sides are entrenched. No amount of posting will convert anybody that has chosen a stance.

I don't know if you have bothered to read any of the other threads on this topic here, but there's some interesting reading - even if you bypass the "extremist" stories about "hacks" butchering snakes in their basements, lol. Gary has posted an account from a very reliable source which addresses "hot" voids (he has also pointed out that your vendor of choice will not guarantee that a snake is rendered harmless & incapable of venom production). I had a friend who was nearly killed by a surgically altered cobra - though that doesn't have much to do with my opinion on the matter -I know I've referenced it, and I think I've posted the full story, too.

AGREED 100%!:angry:

As far as "it's ok as long as a vet with modern medical tech does it" goes... I lost a cat a few years ago to our family vet because they overshot the anesthesia on a routine TEETH CLEANING and he went into cardiac arrest. As much training as vets get, they don't have the same benefit human doctors have of patients that can tell them if something's wrong or be liable if a patient dies under their care. I wouldn't trust them to do something as risky as a venomoid op, because not only does it put the animal at risk, it puts the keeper at risk. If you can't keep hots and resist the urge to handle them... DON'T KEEP HOTS. Simple as that.

I'll do that!!!:D The right direction is to run away from ANYONE trying to sell you a void or a void procedure.

As long as there seems to be advertising in this thread, let me follow suit (well, not advertising, just an offer to help out): I'll kick in five hours of my time helping in preparation, to anyone hurt by a void and wanting to sue :thumbsup:

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

maia. excellent post, and couldnt agree more. it is a mutilation procedure. i have hots, and in my opinion, do not own a hot, if you are uncomfortable with its full potential.

ok im going to get in on this 1 and post once and only once and yall can have at it. my view is this i do not agree with a person buying or having a venomoid surg done on a hot if they only intend on using it to sit in their home just so they can tell their friends look what i got its cool or for them to have one just so they can play with it like a ball python. venomous is venomous if it has venom or not and should be treated like its 100% hot. if you do not intend on using venomoids in a productive way then you should not have them period. if you get a venomoid just to breed them because u dont want to get bite then whats going to happen when the babies pop? they just going to stay in a dirty cage cause you are scared to get them out to clean it? i myself deal with hots and i also use venomoids for educational shows for 1 reason and 1 reason only, to lessing the risk of someone getting hurt if it does happen to get away from me but i still treat it like it 100% hot. i still use hooks and everything in the same way i would with a hot with 100% venom. i also use 6@1/2' glass walls around me and the venomoid so it lessings the chance of escapes. also i never tell anyone that i do shows for that they are venomoid so they wont get any ideas in their heads hey these guy are safe and we can play with them. there should never be any free handing or petting of a hot even if its a venomoid or not. a venomoid is dangerous no mater who does the surg but it lowers the risk if the person is experienced with the surg but they are STILL DANGEROUS! so now i will list what i think is ok and not ok

i think it is ok to have Venomoids ONLY if they are used for educational purposes!

i DO NOT think its ok to have them just to look at are try to play with like a boa or python!

i also think you need experience with hots before you even think about doing educational shows with venomoids, things do happen and think of what will happen if someone else gets hurt because you didnt know what you were doing! just a note just incase anyone not experienced will say ok im going to do shows

thank you i am done!

A freind of mine that has been in the hot community far longer then I have had a vet do this surgery on dead animals. This Vet said that the tissue around the gland and the gland itself can be mistaken. If any gland is laeft behind it can repair itself and the animal once again become venomous. That is why your said vendor will never put in writting that a snake he does this two will NEVER become venomous again. Becuase there is a chance.

Yes it was freehandled within striking range of the public!

This thread is showing me a lot of people are educating themselves on this subject.... WOW That is great

It is sad though. Soon there may not be anything to fight about. I have seen in the last 2 years this hobby be ripped apart by ourselves. We spend so much time on things that dont matter.

I told Rich this. But I am to the point where I want to take my animals and just fade away and just care for them. The hobby is no longer a hobby.Not becuase the animals are not fun but becuase the people are making it not fun.

Alter this...... Do this....Dont do that..... You have to breed this way........ You have to sell this way...... Shows are dumb.....

I have heard it all. I was in the hobby when it was great. I got help from people like the Bells, BHB, Hampers, and many other great people that use to vend the Ohio show. I am still friends with many of them.

I love my hots. I feel they to will be ripped away from me. One reason is a vet wanting to make more money and put venomous species into the hands of people that do not need to have them. For what to be cool? I tell you what keep your pedestal. I will sit in my corner with the things I love. Dont care what people think.

Im out............

Did that vet write an article on that which ended up online, Gary?
I've seen two such accounts by vets, and both said essentially the same thing. I was going to try to dig them up for the OP, but I had other issues to address last night.

I will email Tanith to find out my friend!

Mmmm
 

When I look at web forums I see an endless lot of dribble prostituted as truth and gospel and I hate to say this, but the BS Factor has raised it's head here.
I am not here to convert people to venomoids.
Most posting against it are Zealots in the samer league as those who seek to ban private keeping of snakes because "it's cruel to stick them in boxes".
So lets just agree to disagree on the venomoids (right or wrong).
My main aim here is simply to stick to the truth and a comment here really pissed me off because I have seen it bounce around the web and it is total CRAP!
I read in this thread,

"A freind of mine that has been in the hot community far longer then I have had a vet do this surgery on dead animals. This Vet said that the tissue around the gland and the gland itself can be mistaken."
This is so ridiculous as to be stupid.
Yes, if the practitioner is blind, deaf and stupid, he may confuse GLAND tissue with the MUSCLE surrounding it. But most 4 year olds could tell them apart.
They are even :AR15firin:deadhorseeasily separated on a three-day old roadkill!
... Now lets think of some other excuse to bag venomoids....
ALL THE BEST - RAYMOND HOSER

Before the flames fly re the above pic
 

The Taipans in the image above MUST by law be venomoid in our legal jurisdiction in order to allowed in the displays they do daily.
Also under S32 of the OH and S Act here, I must look after my staff who handle the snakes and they are by law prohibited from handling venomous snakes with venom in tact when vet certified venomoids are an option.
And the snakes shown have been free handled daily for years and we think that's better than sticks and killer tongs for frequently handled snakes.
BTW We don't trade venomoids, ours are in house in Australia and always disclosed as such as we regard it unethical to pretend otherwise, although business rivals without said snakes never cease complaining.
ALL THE BEST

im still trying to understand, why have a venomoid snake (for anything maybe other than educational purpose). if one doesnt want the chance to get bit by a hot, dont keep a hot

ok sorry couldnt hold back on this 1. tell me if im misunderstanding it but in your country they dont want to export snakes for world to share in their snakes because they want them protected and kept in their country but they make you turn them all venomous into venomoids? that is still destroying the nature of these snakes. its one thing to be productive and use them for educational purposes but just to own them is not right. thought our government was screwed up boy we all have issues. just let me know if im wrong

Hey Raymond nice to see you. Yeah you dont use tongs you just slap the head of the snake against your own untill it bites. Or force it to bite your arm. Yeah that is so much better.

I tell you this. If you think a human can not make a mistake then you sir are living with blinders on.

There is no reason to free handle a venomous or venomoid snake in public NONE!!!!

Ray you do not educate on the natural history of the snake you make it the main point to show you can take bites from your hacked snakes. That is not education.

:iagree: educational means teaching something productive about the snakes not making yourself look stupid thanks for pointing that 1 out Gary :thumbsup:
Ray is not someone to learn from

Flame suit on
 

Dear all, someone here got it right when they said the Australian government is screwed up.
I wrote a couple of relevant books about it.
They are called "Smuggled: The Underground Trade in Australia's wildlife".
And "Smuggled-2".
With S273 coming along in the USA, maybe a few so-called herpers should take a read of the books to see what's coming to "the land of the free" and pull your fingers out to stop the rot!
Mmm, maybe some of you are too busy whtie-anting the herp community by your irrational anti-venomoid zealotry, that plays straight into the arms of HSUS and the like...
Anyway, Gary, your posts about the video are as usual totally misleading.
The video made that you refer to is not a daily occurrence for snake shows here.
It was made in response to a non-stop barrage of false claims on the web on sites you frequent, stating that our venomoids had regenerated venom and were a mortal public risk.
Fact is none have!
And if you read my other post on this forum, you'd recall my comments about how amazing this is, considering I am allegedly an idiot who hacks up snakes in the comfort of my garage with kitchen knives and I'd also allegedly have trouble distinguishing a venom gland from a subcaudal scale.
You may recall that after posting a Taipan bite on the web, I was falsely accused of faking the pic, so the next logical step was to do a series of bites in front of a public audience, as seen in the video.
At least no one accused me of faking it, but as we all know, the "truth haters" raise all these idiot objections, like "what if a kid tries this?".
That we know is bullshit, because no kid would have access to the world's deadliest snakes in such a way as to line them up to bite them.
And here's a simple number to remember - as a result of our world-leading demonstrations (yes our venomoids do snake shows DAILY, which was actually the first justification for the operation - the second and more relevant is the welfare benefits for the snakes - no tongs here!), NO CHILD IN VICTORIA has died from snakebite in Victoria in the six years of our venomoid shows and this is testimony to our success as the main and market dominating snake show in the state.
Noting that we are also top-rated in Schools also by independent comparisons and that teachers are lining up for us, it rebuts the claims our shows are misleading impressionable young kids.
Victoria went from highest death from snakebite rate in Australia (predating our shows) to lowest (for which we, Snakebusters and staff, singularly take full credit) and Gary, you can't argue with the scoreboard ... maybe you will?
As for cruelty, the venomoid operation isn't cruel, free handling is good for the snakes.
Making snakes bite me is an act of cruelty and something I wouldn't do any more than neccessary (we've made about ten such videos and solely for the basis of shuting up the liars and "truth haters"), and the cruelty is that I taste of lettuce and that is not the natural diet of snakes.
PS If you want to say I taste like shit, I'll put up with that too!
PPS You may also notice from our videos that contrary to the crap I see on the web about snakes being aggressive, Taipans, Death Adders and the like are not man-eating monsters itching to kill people.
PPPS I have just loaded a load of elapids into the car for another series of shows today and two lots were mating and NONE had any interest in biting... but of course those who think they know better will continue to post misguided crap about venomoids here and elsewhere and as this happens S273 will roll on unopposed ... and when it hits I will know who to blame!
ALL THE BEST
RAYMOND HOSER:toiletcla:smash::>poke2<::hot::flamethr::2gu nsfiri:?party::deadhorse:deadhorse

Fact is you slapped the heads of venomous snakes against your own head to make them bite. You forced the animal to bite your arm.

You say it is not a normal thing you do. But that is all I have seen you do. In two different set ups I believe one was indoors and the other was an outdoor show.

Their was no need for it.

Venomoids are the unloaded gun of the venomous world.

R-r-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight. Because people are so simple minded that they can't manage to refocus on other things after a prancing pony passes the window. Sure, the spectacle might catch people's eye - and, surely, that was the intent - but after we spend a few minutes on Did you see that? (or, What a friggin idiot, as the case may be) most of us can snap ourselves out of it and get on with our lives.

BTW, proper use of a snake hook is no more traumatizing to a snake than being lifted by a hand....or maybe you do things differently in Australia?

Well I think I won the argument.
I pointed out that there was misinformation here about telling the difference between venom gland and muscle and all I got in response was "venomoids are butchered snakes", your venomoid bite videos are shockers and similar.
That view is fine, but please stick to telling the truth about things.
Lets try starting with "venomoid by definition means NO VENOM" ... easy!
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

Win? Argument? Ahhh, I see, instead of a discussion, sharing information, you seem to be trying to direct the conversation, wanting it to be YOUR way.

Unfortunately, it is not. Venomoid surgery is not an exact science. So if you are standing over a dead person who THOUGHT he was handling a venomoid, and got tagged, and died as a result, and you are smiling down on the dead body and saying 'venomoid by definition means NO VENOM' why yes, you won. Happy?

lucille - you have a point - we shouldn't be arguing.

But what am I to do when I point out an obvious piece of
misinformation, only to have a bunch of argumentative people
changing the subject to an irrelevant video that shows nothing like an operation or the difference between muscle and organ, which was the basis of my first post here (please read it, instead of jumping the gun).
The video the referred to by Gary O and others only relates to another bit of a lie in that the said snakes had regenerated venom, which the video more than adequately disproves, totally pissing off the liars!

If you jump off a cliff and kill youself I will stand over your dead body and say, "humans can fly ... but better to have tried a helicopter!"

Ah yes, back to S273, one idiot kills themselves when drunk with a Broghammerus, so we ban all pythons. Makes sense yeh?

Try joining HSUS!

It's the same lies and Zealotry we see against venomoids.

If you have any concern for the welfare of people, reptiles or the legitimate passtime of keeping snakes in boxes, redirect your anger towards those trying to stop the hobby and not the sometimes legit use of devenomized snakes for the snake's own welfare and/or public safety.

ALL THE BEST
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse

Exact science - yes it is...
 

Lucile,
you wrote:

"Venomoid surgery is not an exact science. "

I beg to differ - it is. There's even textbooks about it. Try Doug Mader's for a start...(mm, let me guess, you've never heard of him or some other Funky dude called Dr Richard?)

Here's the science part that is EXACT.

"See gland, cut whole thing out as well as nearby duct and mucle ball at rear (you probably didn't know they looked like this, because you don;t get that off the web)! - Simple"

As for other operation, TEST later to make sure it worked.

Person who doesn't do test is idiot.

Simple.

PS Don't buy a used venomoid from a car dealer...

PPS If yellowish stuff still comes out of fang and snake is missing testicles, you probably cut the wrong end!

Hope this makes sense.

Raymond
:yesnod::yesnod::iagree::shootfoot:shrug01::rofl: