lol no what he meant was they free handle the snakes at the shows they do surg on lol should of been worded another way but i get where u got that at. i do agree with you on the if you are going to own a hot just own a hot but if you are doing educational shows for schools to educate them on venomous snakes in the area where they live its beeter to use venomoids to lower the risk even though its still not 100% safe. i mean its not like i let them touch them or anything but still you run a risk of it getting away from you and things do happen so i ONLY agree with them being used for education only. i dont believe anyone should have a venomoid unless its used for education. i ranther work with hots(which i do) but i just use these venomoids at shows. so you have to look at the educational side of it too. now days everyone just tells their kids go play in the yard and the parents dont watch them. if they run up on something that looks cool and dont know its dangerous they can get hurt or killed by it, also if they do get bit it makes the process go quicker if they know what bit them so they can tell their parents and their parents can tell the docs. so thats my reason for their use in my shows

and yes i agree free handling a venomous wether hot or venomoid is wrong and could end up with bad results for the person handling them as well as the person(s) watching. it all goes back to responsability and intent

Mmm, (beats head against wall...)
There is no point in making a venomous snake venomoid if you don't then free-handle it.
The reason for venomoids is for the snake's welfare - no more "killer tongs".
Using tongs to handle a venomoid is the most outragous act of animal cruelty possible.

Now as to the raft of comments here about the dangers to impressionable young kids who see people handling venomoids, that all presumes that these same imprssionable kids know how to tell venomous snakes apart from non-venomous snakes, assuming it's OK for people to free handle non-venomous snakes - or do you advocate killer tongs on corn snakes for kids shows so they don't get the wrong idea?

In case you don't know this yet, most adults can't distinguish between venomous and no-venomous snakes, except perhaps things like Cobras and Hoserea rattlers! If you don't know this, then step away from your PC I (yes it may be hard) and go into the "real" world.

See how stupid your arguments are ... yes, I can see S273 rolling on full steam ahead while you try to create questionable science on venomoids...
RAYMOND HOSER:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:dead horse:deadhorse

ray u are an idiot. the point of doing the shows with venomoids are to keep them safe. corns are not venomous or maybe u dont know that. free handling of venomoids u ARE telling the kids its ok to do it. and also i do shows for adults as well but i do the shows for kids at school for FREE. sounds to me like you has beat ur head up side a wall a few times already. u are an idiot plain and simple you just keep making ur self look dumber and dumber enough said.

Let's pretend this thread and entire topic is inside of a box, *draws a box, stuffs thread in it*. Now I step away from the box and read everyones opinions, and yes i'm being a bit of a smart ass here lol.

I totally understand both point of views on this topic and it truly does come down to what ever you want to do because it's your snake, pet and it's your life. Now lets say Snake handler bob wants to get an Elapid because he has always had a fascination for the snake and would love to care for one. Bob also has many years of experience with snakes, including some agressive ones so he is capable of handling a hot with out much difficulty.

Bob also has 2 kids and a wife that live in the house. Bobs wife is a house wife so his income is the only income the family has. In this particular situation bob has a few choices. He could have his elapid as a hot and risk himself getting bit, taking the chance of dieing or being in ICU etc. Bob won't be able to go to work, possibly lose his house etc. Even worse someone else in the house could break the rules and get into the elapids cage and get bit and die because no one would know what to do to keep him/her alive.

option two which i have a feeling a lot of people will say. Bob has a family and if he can't afford to risk being bit he should just not own the hot and stick with constrictors.

option three, bob could have the venomoid surgery performed on his elapid by a licensed surgeon which would lower the risk of the snake producing venom if any at all. There is always a very slight risk so you all say, kinda like a guy getting a vasectomy, but i've had mine done for 6 years and no one has came up prego yet :D

Now some of you argue that hots need their venom because it's a natural defense. if your feeding your hot f/t rodents for food and they live in captivity 100% of the time... i'm not understanding why they need the venom, what are they defending their selves against?

i understand where Bob is coming from but here are a few things that are in my mind but bottom line its Bobs choice

you should not keep a venomous or venomoid in the home.
you should always have it key locked so noone but the key holder can get in.
venomoids like you and i both said is not 100% and you could die from venom or even infection(very rare but possible) if its not treated proper.
humans do screw up and Bob might get one that was screwed up on.

either way Bob wants to look at it is up to Bob but Bobs going to do what Bobs going to do. as far as venom to digest food its still not proven either way but my venomoids crap at the same time as my venomous and their crap still looks the same and they are fed the same days so thats still unproven. but we will let Bob decide.

well i think i just said Bob in this more than i ever said Bob before lol good luck in your choice Bob

lol yeah that was a lot of bobs. I'm certainly not in bobs situation as i have no wide and no kids. In fact i live by myself in a one bedroom apartment. It was only a scenario :)

grrr i hate not being able to edit a post to fix fat finger mistakes :rofl:

lol well Scott, i really dont recommend getting a venomoid for a pet, when people get them they get comfertable with them and thats when things go wrong. take Ray for example hes let his bite him so much hes lost his mind lol. but seriously people do make mistakes and its the whole what if mine was a mistake thing you know. i wouldnt have them if i didnt do shows cause sometimes i catch my self feeling a little too comfertable with them and that itself is dangerous

yeah i feel ya. you are putting your life in another persons hands so to speak. It's a risk some are willing to take i suppose. I personally don't have any experience with hots. Heck i don't even have experience with an aggressive snake other than a nippy neonate lol.

i wouldn't even consider a hot unless i found a mentor and got quite a bit of experience under my belt first. after that i'd decide on the hot/venomoid but that would still be pretty far down the road.

thanks for all the info guys, it's been good reading it all so far :thumbsup: