Giving birth after 6 years from a male...
 

Hey guys, thought I would share this with you all. Today to much... much... MUCH suprise, as turning on our lights and getting ready to open the shop today, our Eastern Diamond Back Rattlesnake (Crotalus adamanteus) had a suprise happening. After over 6 years in captivity, and being in complete solitude the entire time, she was giving birth :) Obviously I was in shock, but, throughout the entire day, I took photos and videos of the process, as she pushed out 2 live babies and 11 slugs. One of the two babies is missing one eye, though seems healthy, while the other, larger one is visually healthy. I plan on trying to preserve if possible, the hardened slugs, to put on display at our exhibit, they are currently frozen until I find a solution for them. As for the babies, they are going to be kept on exhibit, and will hopefully stay alive for us, since we do not know exactly how old the mother is. She was an adult when we got her. Though nature is always suprising, this is definately one of the more interesting things that I have experienced while dealing with any species of reptiles. Below is a photo of the two babies shortly after being taken from mom. Hope you all find this as interesting as I did!! :)

That is just amazing. I'd heard that snakes can hang onto sperm for up to two years, but 6???? That's crazy.
Wonder if there are any records of longer times (seriously you should approach the Guiness book of records...)
Congratulations anyway - really hope that both do well.

parthenogenesis?

Have you sexed them yet? This is very interesting.

Yes, Ive heard many many times before about retaining for 1 or 2 years, but 6 just seems so out of the way! I would have assumed that the sperm would have died out by that long from the transfer, or just plainly not taken at all. Also, we had thought about the "what if" factor on parthenogenisis, but has anyone else heard of that from any reptiles? I personally havent, but Im up to hearing all thoughts and suggestions! These little ones have not been sexed, as we were both very shocked, and suprised, and we've never had plans to do any hot breeding lol. So far everyone that I have contacted about it cant come up with an explanation or theory other than amazingly being able to retain for that long!!

Yes, there are documented cases of parthenogenesis in reptiles...not positive whether those include snakes, but I'm pretty sure it has occured.
With parthenogenesis, you shouldn't get any male babies - so sexing the babies is the first step to getting an answer.

Even if the sex's are all female then there will still be no solid proof wether or not it is in fact partho. People will still be able to argue that its a coincedence that they're both female and that theres a slight posibility she was placed with a male during cleaning or that sperm somehow got into the cage. Cool event none the less.

No, all females would not be proof of parthenogenesis...but having a male baby would eliminate that possibility.

I will try to get the sex determined asap. But yes, Im sure there will be people to argue that fact either way. Though fact is, we have only had 1 diamondback for the entire 6 years. Also, living in Georgia, with most GA laws, we have no desire, or reason for breeding any venomous species. We cant sell them, so therefore there is no reason to take that time or up the amount of risk on daily cleaning or care with those animals. Hopefully there will be someway to tell what happened, because it was very interesting experience, and want as much information as possible.

Other than that, if the sperm somehow got into the cage..... Id like to know what kind of person carries around E. Diamondback sperm in their pocket for that kind of occassion LMAO!! :D

Here are more photos from the birthing... As you can see from around her, she had several slugs, and there were even 2 that seemed like they were forming, but died early into it.. enjoy the pictures.. :) The first photo shows what I walked into Sunday Morning. She generally will not eat in front of people, or with the lights on, so I leave her meal inside the cage with her overnight, I first noticed the food remaining in the cage, then saw all the suprises second. I then removed the rodent, from the cage, and she continued the birthing process.

Wow, not even out of the sac and already trying to eat your face. What an adorable, fiesty little mite!

Well, actually that was its first big "yawn", they both are still on the slow side as of right now, no telling what will happen after the first shed. They are doing very well so far!

This is so sweet!:thumbsup::thumbsup:Thanks for the thread!!
If I had good Karma I would send it your way!

If you can afford it DNA analysis would answer your question. I'm told it's possible to get DNA from freshly shed skins. Did you keep the slugs? there might be recoverable DNA in there.

HOLY SPERM RETENTION, Bat Man!!

Congrats to you and the momma!!

:eek:

My favorite line from Jurassic Park--"Life finds a way."

Noelle

For sure!!

Wow what an amazing story!

I'm also extremely curious if this was from stored sperm or parthenogenesis. I'd guess stored sperm, and that would also explain why so many slugs/stillbirths/deformities as the sperm deteriorated over time.

You should contact your local news!

Actually I did keep the slugs, they are all frozen in a container right now, I was hoping to figure out a way to preserve them for display purposes along with keeping the two babes for display. Im not even sure where to start to find out how much DNA testing would cost, though Im sure its far more than we have right now, funds stay tight as a small business!
But either way, it really is one of the more interesting things thats ever happened to me while dealing with reptiles, or heck, animals of any sort for that matter!!
Im hoping to do an update video as these babies progress, They seem to be doing decently well though.

Yes!!

Please DO keep us updated!!

Hi Eric,

The best way would be to contact the herp professors at the closest large universities(y). Explain what happened and if they would just do a simple DNA comparison between Mother and Daughters, assuming offspring are female. It will most likely attract their attention, especially if it is the first reported case in reptiles or snakes. It is not expensive for a lab to do this once they have the equipment so the bio department at a university may do it pro bono just the pursuit of knowledge (or much more likely, a potential published paper).

Hey everyone, quick update, One of the two baby D.B's shed yesterday, I took a quick snapshot of it also, and I'll post it asap!! They are both much more alert now, and the one that shed even attempted a little "shake" at me :P Attempt at feeding soon!

Cool - freeze the shed, you may be able to use it fro DNA if you go that route.

Looking forward to pics

Congrats on the shedding milestone!!

They'll be trying to strike you in no time!!

I am 99% sure that Colorado State Vet Hospital does DNA testing on all types of animals (I know they do dog, equine, and avian). You can call them and they may be able to help you or tell you a center somewhere around that can help you. It doesn't have to be local, if you are good enough with animals which it sounds like you can take your own blood samples, cool them, and send them in for testing. You could also have a local herp guy draw the blood and have it sent out. However, you might be able to visually look at them. I am not sure about EDB's as much as other reptiles, but if it is asexual reproduction with identical DNA they would have the same patterns and actually should be identical copies of one another (unless somehow there was a DNA mutation in embryo, which would mean your snake had a form of cancer before it was born... very unlikely). I am not a super herp guy, but I am working on my degree in Biomedical Engineering and have my degree in Biochemistry so I can help on the reproduction end if you need it :)

Thanks for the info. I have sent out a few contacts to a few places and waiting to hear back, Also I am getting a good friend of mine that deals alot with hot specific herps to come in and help sex them before I go to crazy into it, either way it is just awesome to have these little guys with us. Here is an updated picture from the first shed out that they had!

How pretty!!!

Hey just wanted to actually update you (this interested me so I had to look further into it). I talked to a geneticist here at Colorado State that also happened to be an avid reptile lover. He told me that with reptiles, the genes can shift or become abnormal fairly easily when compared to that of mammals. However, it is still a 90%+ chance that if they are asexual reproductions they would be identical not only to each other but to their mothers. He did say, however, that the fact one had a bad eye could mean either that their was an error in replication during the asexual DNA encoding (could happen), that it is actually a poorly formed twin of the other with a few genetic morphs (very unlikely), but that likely it was somehow sperm that had been stored. He said that he has heard of some snakes going upwards of 4 years in captivity, so 6 is possible though extremely impressive (and even made a joke/hint at calling Guinness too haha). This leans more towards my thinking. Genetics are pretty specific and in asexual reproduction to get one morph from the parent gene is uncommon enough, but to have two snakes that don't look 95% identical at least tells me there was another parent in there. In all honesty, that is more impressive to me than parthenogenesis... 6 years is a loooong time.

Very interesting. I still have yet to have someone come up and help me sex these little guys yet, but they are moving around quite a bit, and seem to be showing interest in getting ready for their first meals finally, so hopefully that will happen this week. The mother ate a small rabbit today, which is her first meal since giving birth to the babies.

Please keep this thread alive as you progress - it's fascinating and I think many of us would be very interested in how it turns out....

Yes!!

Please do!

So I attempted to feed them again, small mouse fuzzies/crawlers again, they show interest, but as soon as they barely get touched by them, they back way off. Though they wont show interest w/ prekilled. I also tried an over the night scenario, but that hasnt worked yet either, they do however show a slight motor skill problem, as far as slight head wobbling, hopefully they will take their first meals and the wobbling wont effect them long term.

Fingers are crossed!

Awwww!!

Poor little guys!!

Sending good juju and prayers for them!!

I hope they find their appetite and recover for you!!

So I had a friend come by and help me with the sexing of the two babies today.... and .............. they actually......... are..... both... young........... ladies. One step closer to learning about this situation a little deeper.

Curious and curiouser!

Any leads on getting them DNA tested?

And are they eating yet?

No decent leads yet, Ive been given a few suggestions, and contact names, but with no luck on getting any replies so far! Hopefully they will begin eating soon, I am going to attempt feeding again on Friday. I may also do an update video with them also.

If I am not mistaken (could be wrong because it is just through memory of my crazy ex girlfriend from Atlanta) but Helen is fairly close to Atlanta, no? If so, contact them. I am sure they would be pretty interested in hearing the story, they are actually a pretty well respected zoo, and if I am not mistaken they have a few venomous herp specialists there. They might be willing to do the research if you are willing to chip in on the testing kits. Just an idea :) This has me really interested, especially since they are both little ladies. Are they eating ok now?

I am also curious to find out which scenario produced the babies.

I do hope the little things will eat soon. :)