Andrew Potts- I want my money back
 

The story between Andrew Potts and myself goes back a few months. I sent him money for a 2011 Hytec Parahet Male. I wished for the snake to arrive during the spring time because I live in Chicago and seeing single digit days is not that uncommon during the winter. I did not wish to risk the snake arriving dead.

The snake arrived in March dead on arrival. The box had a slight smell to it before I even opened it up and I figured it was simply feces. The snake was shipped fine in that the there was Styrofoam, news paper ect. The snake however was dead, limp, and stinking like something on the side of the road after a few days. This did not raise any suspicions for me because mistakes happen. I understand this completely. My friend asked me about the shipping process and hours it was in the crate and many other questions. She was leading me to look into the death of the snake more closely and asked me about its rigor mortis, its pooling of blood, and a few other questions. All these questions lead to a time of death much later then simply "in the mail death".

All the things I have said can be proved by the pictures and video I took of the snake when I first opened the package and again a day later.

So now I have a dead snake on my hands and was talking with Andrew (who was completely helpful until this point) and I overnighted the snake back to him at his request. On the tracking number it was listed as destroyed at customers request. At this point I was thinking oh no, why is that? I called Fedex and there was an E-note attached to it stating that the driver found the stench too much and had to open it up and find the deceased snake. This was after 2 layers of freezer bags, coffee grounds, and a tupperware container mind you and this animal was only in my hands for less then 2 days.

This is where my complaint comes in. Andrew Potts said he would be willing to help only AFTER he received the deceased snake. So now I am having to look up laws as to what state I must sue in to have my money returned to me. I am asking for the initial cost of the snake plus the 75 dollars to overnight the snake from Chicago to Florida.

If you have any questions feel free to ask them and I will respond the best I can.

Can we see the pics? And how much time have you givin him to return your money? Doe he know about the thread? If thier are any emails or text please post those also!

Sure thing, I will post the pics up onto imgur so give me a sec. As for the emails let me pull them up. I will be back in less then 10 minutes

And has he disagreed to pay you back becaus
e they killed the snake?

well destroyed the package?

Kevin, He's in route and will be there tomorrow. Make sure someone is there to sign, otherwise the driver cant deliver, I paid extra to get a signature. Here's the tracking number......798185339693. Take care and talk with soon. Andrew

Kevin Bailey
Mar 20

to apotts60
Andrew bad news. It arrived dead. I am taking pictures of it now and putting it in a ziplock bag. gimme a call.

Kevin Bailey Mar 29 (12 days ago)
Hey just checking in to see when I should expect to see those snake pictures

apotts60@aol.com
Mar 29 (11 days ago)

to me
Mr Bailey, as mentioned in a previous e-mail, until I receive the deceased 2011 male Orange-tail Hytec Parahet #2, I will not make any effort to resolve this situation. Andrew Potts

Kevin Bailey
Mar 31 (10 days ago)

to apotts60
Andrew, I do not know what sort of address you have. I have mailed a check there twice and it only got there after you called me and confirmed who I was even though I used the same address both times. This time I mailed the snake on the 22nd overnight for 73 .56. I presumed I had no worries about it since I used the exact same address you gave me already. This time the package was destroyed because the damn thing smelled so bad AFTER the address was not acceptable. I have attached pictures proving I held my end up and the tracking number which also shows the dates and times.

Tracking no.: 800112993548
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apotts60@aol.com
Mar 31 (10 days ago)

to me
Mr Bailey, I'll say it once again, until I receive the deceased boa, I will not move a centimeter forward to resolve this issue. Andrew Potts


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Bailey <baileykm86@gmail.com>
To: apotts60 <apotts60@aol.com>

Kevin Bailey
Mar 31 (10 days ago)

to apotts60
I would like my money back then.

My address is


apotts60@aol.com
Mar 31 (10 days ago)

to me
Mr Bailey, In an earlier e-mail I said nothing will happen until I receive the deceased boa. Please do what you must but I stand by my previous statement. Andrew Potts


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Bailey <baileykm86@gmail.com>
To: apotts60 <apotts60@aol.com>

Kevin Bailey
Mar 31 (9 days ago)

to apotts60
Your request is not going to happen. As I told you before the snake stunk. The animal arrived post rigor mortis which happens after 3 days. The snake was limp and not hard. Also happening at the same time is this, Hydrogen-Sulfide escapes from bacterial decomposition (usually starts around the stomach and intestine areas). This means it smells. This happens after 36 hours. The body had blood pools already very pronounced that happens from 12-36 hours. Then the mouth of the animal was at a 180 degree from its upper jaw. I was unable to receive an explanation for what would cause the snakes mouth to do that. Finally we come to what this all means.

With your tracking number I noticed the snake was only in transit for a total of 20 hours. I think you can see how the math does not add up and a dead snake was sent to me.

Now regarding your not budging before you receive the dead snake. It is impossible. That hydrogen sulfide I was talking to you about earlier in the email (the dead animal smell we all know so well) was so potent that not only did it escape 2 freezer ziplock bags surrounded by saran and in a Tupperware container. Furthermore, I used coffee grounds to mask the smell more. Coffee grounds as I am sure you know mask smells amazingly. That is why stores use it to cleanse the nose palate when you are buying colognes and perfumes. This can all be vouched for by my friend Rommel who was in from California and watched me do this. Now the next thing I did was send the snake overnight to your address that I used previously to send you the check (yes I still have that email of you giving me your address). Now I called fedex to figure out what is going on with this customer requested destruction. They had a note on it saying that the stench was so terrible that they could not handle it past the Tampa hub so they opened it up, found a dead snake, and then destroyed the said snake.

So this brings me back to my next point. I want my 4575.48 back or a Sharp Strain Albino Aztec.

The 75.48 comes from the overnight Fedex that I used to return the snake.

I used my real address here

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 3:04 PM, <apotts60@aol.com> wrot


apotts60@aol.com
Mar 31 (9 days ago)

to me
Mr. Bailey. In a word no. End of discussion. Andrew Potts


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Bailey <baileykm86@gmail.com>
To: apotts60 <apotts60@aol.com>

Kevin Bailey
Mar 31 (9 days ago)

to apotts60
then my money


Kevin Bailey
Apr 1 (8 days ago)

to apotts60
So I am going to assume that you are keeping my money and not sending me a snake. I will be contacting a lawyer here to figure out what state BAR certified lawyer I need, IL or Fl.

Forgot this one:
March 20th
Kevin, I'm not requesting that you return the deceased boa to be a pain but it's needed for any possible insurance claim we might be able to pursue with our Insurance carrier. I know it's asking allot to put it in the refrigerator but it's important it be as fresh as possible for agent inspection and I also must ask you to ship the boa back tomorrow. The sooner after death we file a claim of this nature the less hassle involved. Again I'm so sorry for the inconvenience and genuinely thank you for your patience and level headedness during a high stress situation. The claim I'm talking about is not with FedEx but unfortunately I did mention to Sean about filing a claim with FedEx if it was delivered after three(late delivery) and I wanted him to lie about the contents increasing the chance of FedEx approving the claim. Andrew

March 21st
Kevin, It just occured to me that Sean thinks I'm filing a claim with FedEx and need his help, I don't. FYI I couldn't file a claim for anything from FedEx because the package was delivered on time and I had no declared value. The Insurance claim is with the company I have our boa and ball collections insured with, most big breeders have similar insurance and coverage. I don't need any statements or anything from anyone other than the deceased animal or photos, preferably the deceased animal. So please send photos and the deceased boa.

How does our conversation end on such an upbeat note and then I get a nasty e-mail from Sean and It appears with your support. I have to ask, do you think I'm trying to rip you off..? Do you think you deserve more than you purchased because of an unintentional mistake...? Please call me or e-mail, Its very important we resolve this one way or the other. Take care and hope to talk soon, Andrew


I also provided the photos:
http://imgur.com/IA9a8,tirLZ,V9Rwn,7...MP,Qll1K,PynB8

have you told him about this thread?

No I have not. I know he has a squeaky clean reputation that is why I went with him. Now as for him not returning my money... I can not talk for him. He apparently really wanted the snakes body which has been destroyed (even though pictures were supposed to be good enough). I am just doing my amazon.com-style review of a seller.

I do not understand what he is trying to do. I am just glad I decided to keep things mostly through email instead of phonecalls that way I have a recorded track record of what has happened.

Are the pics from the same day you recieved the snake? That poor thing it looks like its been dead for days

I think maybe a good place to start would be to post the paperwork from the shipping co. that states they destroyed the package. its going to be a very important piece of information.

Pics should really be good enough. You shouldn't have to ship the dead animal back...Is he trying to make it so the reptile hobby loses a way to transport snakes and other reptiles??

half the pictures are from day one the second are from the second day. I have a 100 megabyte video but I do not know how to upload videos that big yet. I still need to do some googling. Pictures 1, 4, and 8 are from the second day. I could not stay near it on the first day it was so bad. The second day it did not smell as bad and I was able to get close to it and actually hold it without vomiting. The first day everything was kosher between Andrew and I and I was not suspicious.

Now if you look at the tracking number that Andrew provided me in the one email you will see that the snake was only in transit for 20 hours before I signed for it and opened it up. Then I started to think it was funny for an animal to smell that bad after only a few hours. I have killed dear that have not started to smell until a day or 2 later. This snake was only in there for a few hours. Secondly the purple pools you see on the snakes skin that is pooled blood. that also does not happen until a little later in the decomposition cycle. Thirdly the body was limp and was not stiff like a "freshly" dead animal.

And if you want to confirm my enote you can use the tracking number I gave Andrew and call Fedex. They will tell you exactly what I said about the Tampa hub unable to deliver it and destroying the box completely.

Thats a good idea. I just called them and they sounded disgusted at me for doing it...

It looks like it made it to Tampa, they noticed it was a bad zip code, and a couple hours later they destroyed the package. Since it says 'customer requested', what are the chances they called him to get his correct address, and he told them to destroy the package???? Every time I ship the receiver's phone number is on the slip.....

I do not know. The lady I talked to said it most likely came from the driver. I plan on giving them a call tomorrow and getting the note attached to the "customer destruction" tab. I just talked to the FedEx lady close to a week and a half ago now at least. The lady was pretty vague on who the customer was be it a truck driver or Andrew. It sounded to me like it was the truck driver who pulled the plug.

Now if the note says any names it could possibly end any debate very quickly. The thing with the zip code is weird. I have used the address he gave me 4 times and twice the address was "wrong". The only time the address was correct was when I sent him my two checks which I gave him warning about. I have google mapped the address and it comes up blank but mail makes it there 50% of the time.

Maybe a little off topic- what were the parents of the Hytec Parahet?

Scratch that... Just remembering the Hytec het Sharp x Paradigm litter:o

wow...why would he want you to ship a dead snake back???? a little fishy to me...why not take a pic or video and send it to him and be done with it....also good luck filing a claim with the shipping company...99.9999999 percent of the time they will not do anything in regards to "live" shipments.....I have been through this one many times...good luck...I hope you get your money back ....

Matthew Miller

I'm sorry...I understand the position you were in, but shipping the snake back in that manner - given your description - was just looking for a problem. IF the snake absolutely had to be sent back, (IMO) you should have frozen it, and packed it in a manner that would ensure that it stayed frozen...some odor control may still have been in order, since it started out stinking, but it's a lot easier to manage when the thing isn't leaking fluids and decomposing in the box.

I don't know Andrew Potts any better than I know Kevin Bailey; but refusing to address this situation until the corpse is returned doesn't make a lot of sense. I can accept his wanting the snake returned...though most of the legitimate reasons for it would be nullified by the time he would have received the corpse (and freezing it, per my previous statement, would have been detrimental if necropsy, or other research, had been planned). Promptly sent pictures that clearly identified the snake and showed it as deceased should have been enough to start the process of taking care of the customer; if he still wanted the body, that is easy enough to arrange.

From my understanding (this came from Andrew) freezing it and dethawing them makes them smell much much worse. I had it in the freezer initially then he called me and told me to do the refrigerator. It makes sense because when animal cells are frozen they burst and when all the tissue dethaws and is damaged from freezing it actually speeds the process up of decomposition. Now as far as the smell goes I figured a can of coffee grounds would have worked. They tend to mask the smell better then any baking soda or carbon filter I have seen.

Now overnighting the snake was 75 dollars and jumped up to over 150 to get it there a few hours earlier. I dont even want to think about how much keeping the snake frozen would have cost to ship.

It is not the shipping company I want my money from, it is Andrew Potts who is holding onto my money and not returning it as he refuses to do any business until he gets his snake back.

I would have to say i agree 100%! The proof was given emedietly by the customer in a timely matter. Proffesionaly speaking i would never ask a customer to send back a corps, considering he opened the package and called emediatly taking pics and video shows his honesty and also the integrity of the package. I believe a refund or replacement is in order.

It would have been a whole lot cheaper than doubling your payment to get it there First Overnight...and it would have been money better spent, since the thawed, stinky snake was deemed undeliverable.

Haha true story. Hind sight is a mofo.

So wait, you didnt even refridgerate the body when you found it dead? Also is your friend who determined the time of death even qualified to make that accusation? Imo it sounds like your problem should be with fed ex and not andrew. Him wanting the body returned is pretty typical for breeders, not to mention it is physical evidence that the snake is dead.

Did you see the pictures. Thier is no doubt the snake is dead!! Kevins problem is with andrew (andrew needs to solve it) and andrews problem is with the shipping company (shipping needs tobe solved it with andrews shipping co.). It is the always the shippers responsibilty if it happens in transit, its just good business ethics. Now if Kevin would not have been thier to sign for the package and would not have openned it right away it would have fallen back on him (kevin), BUT every thing was done right on kevins end. SO it falls back on the person who shipped it (andrew)

:iagree:

If an animal is delivered on time and is DoA, it is the general responsibility of the seller, not the shipping company unless there is obvious signs of neglect by the shipping company. The guarantee of live arrival is just that, a guarantee of live arrival. If it arrives dead, for whatever reason, but is on time, the box is in tact and the packaging undisturbed, it is the seller's responsibility to do something for it.

Also, it appears you did not look at the photos. That snake is most certainly dead and displays deterioration that is difficult to obtain in so short a period of time without being subjected to extreme heat.

Wanting the body returned after seeing photos like that is absurd, in my honest opinion. If Andrew wanted the body, he should have paid for it to be packaged with dry ice or for the shipping in general. Mr. Pott's has been doing this for quite some time so I am a bit blown away by the entire situation as a whole.

Still, I would like to see original files of the photos to check the EXIF data as the way they are uploaded on the file storage site prohibits me from doing so.

Either way, Andrew clearly acknowledged there was an issue seeing as he wanted the animal's body, so his refusal for a refund is a bit odd. Of course, there could always be a part of the story missing.

Kevin, do you have photos of the animal before it was sent to you?

I've NEVER been asked to send a dead body back, EVER. Son't see how it's a common practice to ask for the body back when pictures are plenty of evidence. And Andrew is holding onto his money not fed ex. The snake was dead on arrival. Andrew owes him a refund or new snake.

*don't see*

Animals shouldn't die in transit. Period. Done right with 1" in an oversized box... Proper weather check on both ends.. It doesn't happen! Stop shipping if you're killing animals!

Oh wait! I know why now.. Everybody hates $75-$100 shipping quotes.. So cutthroat breeders slam stuff in 1/4" laced boxes, as small as they can be, make it a $49 shipping add on, and Bingo! You're snake is dead!

well it's not completely uncommon for that request to be made. My one DOA, I did require the person to send the body back (I provided shipping label for the return) and then once I received back all funds (purchase price and original shipping) were refunded.

I think in this case finding out who actually requested the box to be destroyed would help. If it was the driver, maybe they can provide a statement explaining what they did and Mr Potts would accept that in leiu of the body since, well... it's impossible to get at this point.

those pics are sad, I don't understand what could have happened to the jaw. The box wasn't tampered with was it? (had it been opened and retaped?) Doesn't look like it in the photo but hard to tell.

Good luck.

before anyone else thinks im in favor for the breeder with this situation, i am not. All im saying is that if it were me i would have done a little more to protect myself so i could say, "hey ive done all i could"! as for the tod, you'd be suprised how fast a body can deteriorate under the right conditions, which is why you should refridgerate the body (not freeze it) to slow the process. Live and learn because people will try to screw you for their own personal gain and im not saying you dont deserve a full refund because you do.

It should also be quite obvious from the photos that it was his snake he had produced (4500$ is a hefty chunk of change for a quality reptile - you should know something of that quality is yours by looking at it). I wouldn't want to mail something that juicy looking back to a breeder just to prove it's deceased. It should be obvious from the photos to the breeder that it was his stock and it's quite obvious it's not living. I do understand both sides wanting to protect their individual investments, however.

Hello, First off let me say that Kevin Bailey, Sean Griffiths and Connor Gunnuz attempted to blackmail me by demanding I send them a replacement animal worth 2 to 3 times the value of the boa purchased or they were going to tell everyone that I wanted them to lie about the contents of the package so I could file a claim with FED EX.(I couldn't claim anything with Fed-ex because I didn't buy any insurance or declare a value) Even though I offered to replace the animal(had 4 more male 2011 OT Hytec het Sharps to choose from) I was informed by the gang it wasn't enough. Even If I refunded all the money they were going to ruin my reputation. The only way they weren't going to ruin my reputation is if I sent them an 2011 male Sharp Albino Aztec or a male Anery Aztec. The boa they bought cost $4500 and the boas I had to replace with were $8,000 and maybe as much as $12,000.

Can I send someone around 60 to 70 emails that have transpired since 9/16 with these 3 people and that person post them. Once you read all the e-mails you will think these guys are bad people. So if someone will help me I'll send the blackmail e-mail first.

As far as wanting the boa back, this was the first time this ever happened(a boa arrives dead) and considering the the fact they were first time buyers and some of the things they did in the past, I felt it wise to get him back. Like I said I have many many e-mails that will show these guys to be bad news times ten but first please someone help me so I can post the Blackmail e-mail. Andrew

Im confused. First of all, you say they are first time buyers, but yet you mention things they did in the past? if you knew they had a bad rep, why did you take their business? No to mention your statement makes it seem like this is not the first time they have done this to you, so that would first of all, not make them first time buyers and second of all, would not make it your first DOA.

The e-mails said that you were not even going to attempt to fix it unless you got the body back.

The snake is dead. It's obvious. Refund the money, and take care of the customer. If you would have done that instead of saying no, and if you had proof that you took care of it, then no matter what he said he wouldn't have been able to wreck your reputation.

It's plain and simple. If you take care of your customer, by refunding every penny, or of giving a new snake-exact same value, or if you wanted to be nice, a slightly more valuable animal, most people would see it as you tried to make him happy, but he was being unreasonable.

You are, right now, basically saying, you're not interested in making it right unless you get the body back, but the pictures show that it is dead. And it's been destroyed so you can't get the body back anyway. To most sellers, the pics would be plenty of evidence.

I think he was meant... first time they purchased from him. :shrug01: