William Gangemi (at repticon)
 

This saturday I was at repticon Atlanta and purchased a bts from Bill Gangemi's table. I took it home and it died within 20 hrs. I contacted him immediately and his response was bluntly that it was impossible bc bts were bulletproof and it must have gotten too cold. I reassured him of the parameters of my setup and the ambient temps of my fish/reptile room. When I contacted him again today (after my payment went through, mind you) he said there's nothing he can do about it once I left the venue. Before I continue, let me say that I understand he or any other live animal vendor do not know what kind of care the animal receives once out of their hands, and dealing with claims of dead animals from customers can be very risky for them. To me, that just seems like the risk you take (upon proper investigation) in the name of customer satisfaction, but I guess that's his business prerogative.

I've never had an animal die on me after a con like this before. I wrongly assumed that he, while not legally obligated to give me a refund, would have had a more reasonable policy. I also didn't appreciate how his immediate response was that there's no other way the skink could have died and thus had to be my fault. It was very off-putting as I wasn't even trying to blame him or anything. All I can say is I can't believe I could have been cause for the skink's demise given the short amount of time it was in my care and knowing the conditions I kept it in. Other than being in shed and not eating the night I brought it home, I didn't notice any other potential symptoms. On the flipside, I don't know the details of the care the skink had been provided up til the con. Did it travel with him across the country from con to con? I should have asked that and many other questions, and that's my bad.

He later offered that maybe we can work out some kind of credit, which is great, but thus far he hasn't been very forthcoming or willing to explain how this is going to work, or for how much. He already stated he's not going to send me another skink (I would have been willing to pay shipping).

At this point I'm just upset about my loss (I've been wanting a bts for awhile) and I don't know if it would be worth dealing with him again. I may just accept this as an expensive lesson learned and make sure I select a vendor next time that has some kind of policy and seems like they care about their patrons as well.

I am not here to slander or accuse anyone of selling sick animals, but if you want a seller/breeder who will be willing to work with you if things go wrong, this might not be your guy. Or be sure to clarify his policy before you do decide to spend any amount of money you'd be sad to not get back. Maybe he's better with his customers when ordered from directly vs at a con, IDK

Did you inquire about his policy 'before' you purchased the BTS at the show? If so, what written policy did he offer you?

Was it a WC or CBB skink? Sorry to hear that it passed so quickly, definitely a shame to bring a new animal home and have it die.

These situations are tricky because the animal looked healthy (I assume) at the time of the show. So was the seller negligent in some way, or is this just an unfortunate circumstance? It kind of comes down to what the seller's guarantees are. If it's a WC animal vs a CBB animal from a breeder, there is more risk that the animal will be ill or stressed and less likely that there is any kind of guarantee from the seller.

I'm sorry your critter died. But, it was not necessarily the fault of either of you. There are many sorts of people who go to conventions, some are not experienced (I am not talking about you, just in general). A vendor would go broke if he replaced critters that died in the hands of inexperienced owners, or owners where the purchase was an impulse and they were not prepared with the proper living conditions. If you cannot show that the death was his fault, or it was not anyone's fault, I don't think he should have to replace the critter barring a written warranty.
I think it is positive that after some discussion your concern and sorrow showed through and he is offering some credit.

I offered credit towards another one at the next Atlanta show. With out seeing pictures or anything. Our policy during the winter is once something leaves the venue of the show it’s out of our hands. This is mainly do to the Arctic temperatures that we have been experienceing lately and we don’t feel the need to take responsibility if someone leaves there animal in the car when they run in Walmart or something along those lines. These are tropical animals and shock in the cold could kill them. We have a piece of paper on the table with this being stated. On the other hand I don’t know which skink she got we had some captive born babies, some wild caught adults and two captive born and raised adult Meraukes. We didn’t get that far in conversation yet. I am still offering credit towards another at the next show there or that she is attending. However on the other hand I’m not going to pay shipping to the customer and give them a replacement blue tongue in this terrible shipping conditions. Thanks

Thank you everyone for the rapid responses. It has really helped me find closure on the situation. No, of course I didn't ask about the policy and I admit that's my fault. I've also never been to Jan repticon- only summer months. I did offer to send photos but requested his email to do so (which I didn't have at the time, nor did he send it to me when I asked). Admittedly, I never saw any posting on the table, but was possibly distracted by the animals? I will be a much smarter consumer from now on.

I do want to say, if he had been half as diplomatic and clear about his policies/explanations with me when I contacted him, as he is on this forum, then I maybe would not have felt the need to make the post. I think it says something when he is willing to put more time and energy into defending himself online than answering the questions or working to resolve the issue when I contacted him directly. I received limited information, one word replies, and sometimes none at all.

For what it's worth, thanks for offering credit but I'm no longer interested.

I would be upset too. Everyone sympathizes with your loss. But I think you are being a bit unfair here. You posted no proof at all that the death was the fault of the vendor, and William actually went beyond the policy he says was posted at the convention and offered you some credit.


Considering that we do not know why the skink died, and that there was no proof that is was the fault of the vendor, if you did not want to take him up on his offer you could have just thanked him and went on.
Again, I am sorry your skink died, but I do not see him as a bad guy at all. And I just see you as someone upset that their critter died, which is understandable. I don't think there is a bad guy here.

Lucille is right ! one of the great advantages of buying herps at these con outlets is that you can see what you are purchasing . No photos here. Pick it up, look it over and if you have any reservations, leave it. You can also make an offer as vendors are friendly enough to encourage a sale, BUT, once purchased its yours. Its your responsibility as well.

As much as no one wants to see an animal die, especially under these circumstances, the vendor cannot assume responsibility once you take it home. Its not that the vendor is a bad guy, its that you may have been overzelous in your purchase and this is the unfortuante outcome of an item that maybe should not have left the table.

Same Experience
 

Laurendalee,

I made this account because I found your post while searching William, so apologies if I don’t format this post right.

I had the exact same experience that you did.
I bought an adult male BTS from William at the same ReptiCon ATL show, and he died a week later. His enclosure was properly heated, kept clean, and set up perfectly with thermometers and hygrometers to monitor everything. My BTS only ate once, and vomited it all up very soon afterwards. His bowel movements were extremely runny and frequent, and he was extremely lethargic.

I took him to a local exotics vet a couple of days after I got him, and the vet told me that he had old skin issues (burns, etc.) which explained the dull, rough patches on his body. The vet also told me that he was emaciated. He gave my animal a dewormer and a protein shot to try and get him eating, but my animal vomited it all up later that day. He died that weekend. I believe he was already dying when I bought him.

I am so sorry to hear about your loss and hope I am not reopening the wound with this reply, but I wanted you to know you are not alone. No matter how diplomatic he is here or what offers he gives, I will not do business with William again.

Could you please post the vet receipt with the diagnosis? Did you notice the 'emaciation' at the table? BTS are ordinarily sort of tubby, an emaciated one might stand out.
William, did this person notify you of this alleged illness?

I re-read my post and want to state that since I (and most of us) don't know any of the parties, proof is important. Dickson I'm sure you got some paperwork with your vet visit, please post it, the BOI encourages evidence. It would certainly make a difference.

I have offered replacement animals to both parties. That’s more then fair. I have dealt with huge numbers of skinks and believe me I would never have an emaciated blue tongue on my table not to mention I have only ever even encountered but one skinny blue tongue. They basically are fat garbage disposals. That being said someone taking there animal to a vet them giving it injections and worming medicine and god only knows what else makes me not interested in replacing the animal. That essentially sounds like “voiding” it’s warranty. Because as we all know most quack vets will dose reptiles with baytril and causes kidney failure. Last but not least, all animals at the show are vet checked. If any seem sick or lethargic they are not allowed to be sold and are not cleared by the vet. Thanks, sorry for all this but this is the reality of this situation.

I smell a rat, maybe two. If you're at a reptile expo, chances are, you know the routine. You're no "newbie". Even if you are, you showed up with someone experienced. Thus who directed you to this site? Hmmm.

Nothing you said here absolves you of wrongdoing. Same can be said of your accusers. At this point, I trust them less.

Wait hold on. Taking an animal to the vet... is BAD? What planet are you living on?

William that is silly. So far there has been no proof offered yet you are already trying to smear the reputations of most vets while at the same time trying to shield yourself from liability by saying that the critters at the expo are vet checked. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you think vets are quacks then you can't use their services at the expo as evidence that the expo critters are healthy.

I suggest that those saying they have bought sick critters from William provide evidence such as vet receipts, pictures, emails to and from William, etc.

That is hilarious! Taking a sick animal to the vet voids any warranty.

Also, I've vended in Atlanta, the vet check you speak of is a joke. The vet basically scans the tables and if nothing is obviously dead, you get a pass.
So, that is not a defense for selling 2 BTS at the same show that have died or supposedly have died.

Two people two dead skinks from one show. Doesn't look good.

Well it sounds like the animal was just fine besides a few runny stools (fairly normal after a stressful event like a show and a new home) and then started vomiting and died very shortly after the vet injected it with god knows what (protein shots??). I would be curious WTF the vet did as well.

Being a blue tongue "guy" I can tell you that hundreds of wild caught ones come in from the south pacific islands. Some are in great shape others, not so much.
Last year I know of a pet store animal purchased in Southern California that was "chubby". Two weeks later she had 8 babies. That was a good buy.

Buying at shows is good if you know the right questions to ask.
Who bred it? Where did it come from? How long have you had it? What if it dies?

A reptile show is similar to a swap meet. Not a place I would expect to find deal on a real "Coach" handbag. But you can buy hand made products made by local artisans that may be of good quality. Buy from breeders not wholesalers....

William, using a defense that the skinks were vet checked is ridicules, or maybe not? please post the paperwork from the vet who examined your skinks.

I know theres a lot of people complaining about quack vets killing reptiles but I've been able to find tons of reptile vets that know what they're doing. I always question them first just to make sure they know their stuff but every reptile vet that I've stumbled upon in my area has been amazing. Believe it or not reptile vets do study reptiles before they start practicing on them lol And it seems that since competition in the vet field has gone up theres more and more exotic vets that are actually good. I take in so many rescues that have such advanced problems they have to see vets and without those guys knowledge some of those animals wouldn't have made it. So "voiding a warranty" by seeing a vet is complete bull.

And I did say REPTILE vet not regular vet. There is a difference. Normal vets usually take one look at a reptile and either put them on antibiotics or ivermectin and both can be fatal. Especially if they don't know how to does them properly. Reptile and Exotic vets know their stuff.

Exactly!
I have my vets for my Bengal and Savannah cats and then I have my vet for my snakes, I would definitely not cross the pair with animals...lol.

I trust both of them with the lives of my animals but you could never mix them up at all, or woe betide you for sure.

I thought I had heard most of the bs excuses until I read that "taking your animal to a vet voids any warranty" WTH??

Still be nice to see some actual proof from the two buyers of the skinks that died though

Finding good reptile vets in the rural south, where many of this company's shows are located is a bit harder than you guys might realize. I was lucky enough to have a couple good ones in my time, but yeah, even "reptile" vets down here are suspect until proven otherwise. And as mentioned, the "vet check" done at shows is a complete joke and waste of time done as a formality. They do not inspect animals any further than glancing at them.

The two people being merged into one thread is a little confusing. Are the facts that two separate people bought skinks which quickly died from William at the same reptile show?

I ask because one skink dying here and another dying at a different time would be far less of an implication of pre-existing disease than two dying on two separate people who purchased at the same show.

Even still, I would not label it as a bad guy post. Living animals sometimes seem fine, then die and the stress of changing conditions could certainly increase those odds. If this had happened to me, I probably would have asked for store credit and called it a day.

Forgot to add, I certainly think William would be entitled to a copy of the vet report, too. It's unclear to me if that was provided to him.

New England Reptile Expo this weekend
 

I made a last-minute decision yesterday to buy a fat tail gecko from the table of William Gangemi. They was doing fine yesterday, temperature and humidity was good, and water and food were available. I checked on in this morning and all seemed good. He had obviously eaten and messed so I cleaned his house before I went to work, gave him fresh water and made sure there was food and that the temperature and humidity were good.

I came home from work tonight and the gecko I bought yesterday was just about dead. Only its tail was twitching and it looked like it was dehydrated. I tried giving it some water with an eyedropper and it didn't work. He died shortly after. I had no contact info for the seller but I explained what happened in a review of the service through Square since I had paid using my debit card. I would love to at least hear back from them but I'm not convinced that I will. This is all very frustrating and I don't think I would ever buy another gecko at an expo.

Apologies for being absent on this thread. I only just received an email telling me there were new replies. I did receive paperwork, but I believe it got thrown away in a recent deep-clean. I have contacted my vet for another copy and will post it as soon as possible. As for William’s claim that he offered replacement animals to both parties: unless I somehow missed a direct message or other form of contact, that is false. I currently have no messages in my FaunaClassifieds mailbox and William does not have my email and thus cannot contact me that way. I do admit that I am new to reptile keeping. ReptiCon was my first exposure to reptile expos of any kind. I don’t know how to provide proof that my animal did indeed die. I did not take pictures or video of him in his death throes. I did make a grave error by purchasing my skink without getting a business card or anything from William, as well as not writing down his name or information. I only got his name off of my credit card purchase history after my animal died. I completely understand that people are skeptical of my claim as I haven’t provided proof, so I promise I will have my vet paperwork up as soon as I get a copy. I only have a few pictures of him and most are a little too close to see his body, but I will post what I have. Thank you for the replies, both supportive and skeptical. I now have a crested gecko who is doing swimmingly!

James, I believe your report. But I think a little advice might help you and others.
With the common use of cell phones and cell phone cameras. I would begin shooting pics the time I bought the animal, when I got it home, and every time I went to check on the animal.

I am telling you this from experience. I sell reptiles. A client bought a baby snake that didn't eat right away. The client sent me pics and I returned pics of how to get it to eat. It took over 6 weeks, but it ate. He still sends me updates via text message.

Going forward, a picture that you took when you first set the gecko up, and then one less than 48 hours later of it near death would be powerful evidence. You may also choose to shoot short videos and post them on youtube. When you do videos you can talk while shooting and give details of what you see.

Just a thought for any person that buys any animal...

Since posting, I have heard from William. He was very prompt and apologetic, and I believe he was quite sincere. I do not hold him responsible for what happened to my gecko. I certainly don't think was to blame. If I could, I would delete my original posting. I do not think this experience has completely turned me off from attending other reptile Expos. I did have a great day and I actually look forward to the next one. I'm going to consider this a learning experience and try to be better prepared in the future. I think William for his prompt reply to my message on Square. You did have a great selection at the Expo and I look forward to visiting your table at the next one. I apologize for speaking out in haste earlier, but I was upset at the time and you were probably the easiest target. I am sorry for that.

Why exactly do you think he is not responsible for the death?

I think many things contributed. The stress of the expo. The stress of moving to a new home. I talked to my brother and we both remember hearing the gecko make a sound like he was sneezing, so he could have been sick. It's not fair to blame these all on one person.

This abrupt and extremely apologetic post is kind of suspicious, tbh. What exactly did William say or offer you that prompted you to practically fall over yourself apologizing? If the gecko was sick, that is the seller's fault.

Clarifications
 

I re-read this thread and wanted to clarify some things about my post:

My skink started vomiting before I took him to the vet. I always take new animals, reptile or otherwise, to the vet when I first get them. I took him to the only reptile vet anywhere near me, Dr. James Talbott. He told me blue tongues were some of his favorite reptiles and sent me home with the Reptiles Magazine caresheet (which I had already read in detail about a hundred times before the visit).

The dewormer and protein mix he gave my skink were not actual injections. They were given orally with a syringe. The protein mix was just a sort of nutrient powder mixed with water to try and boost my skink’s appetite. It didn’t work, and the skink vomited it all up that night.

I am headed to the vet at 3:30 today to get the paperwork. Admittedly, this was my first time going to this particular vet and you can’t really be sure that a new vet, particularly an exotic one, is perfect. However, he did specialize in reptiles and I think the only thing he could have possibly done to the skink to harm it was the dewormer. I’m not sure exactly what it was, but the paperwork will likely tell me. He did not give the skink antibiotics or a shot or anything.

I attached the only good photos of my skink I have left, as I deleted most of them in grief after he died (stupid!). Some quick notes: in the first photo he was on the (clean) hardwood floor for about five minutes total because I was seeing if maybe he would eat if he was out of his enclosure (silly I know, but I was trying). The raspberry is there because pieces of (clean, organic) raspberry was the only food he ever showed interest in. I thought something sweet might get him interested in food. They were not a staple and he only ever ate one (before he vomited the first time). In the second photo, he is on my friend’s shoulder, where he remained for about 30 seconds. I had her wash her hands with antibacterial soap before and after touching him. I recognize now that handling him at all was a mistake, but I strongly believe that nothing I did could have caused him to die that quickly because, as William himself said, blue tongues are hardy.

Good God, I forgot to actually link the photos. Sorry. https://imgur.com/a/D1YG9

Why don't you post this conversation between the two of you that led to your epiphany?

I agree.
Something sounds fishy.

You may have heard it cough?