Adenovirus Document from University of Florida
 

Update from U of F

Hello
 

Hello Tammy,

Thank you for posting that for us!!

Tracie

Does anyone else feel like crying?

I can't get it to open, is there any other way we could link it or post it? If not....what does it say????? PLease!!!!

You need adobe acobat reader to see it

you can download it online

It says the same thing that about a dozen published papers already online and already mentioned on this sites in the past and the prior letter they released.

The only difference I can see is that they state most their tests they have ran are positive, but they do no state any numbers of test or numbers of breeders colonies that it is from or the time period which I would have liked to see. I saw someone say they thought 500 and I had thought last October it was under 200, so I do not now which or if they had a lot more test in 5 months. I really do think that this left unchecked for so many years allowed many ownwers and breeders dragons to become infected

I've heard, and admittedly the information came from someone with connections to a large breeder better left unnamed, that they had tested 500, I don't know that for a fact. if it is only 500, then we definitely need to get more people testing because that simply isn't a big enough study.
It's frustrating to know now that the PCR testing has been available since 2003 because no one was doing it. If people had way back then, we'd would maybe be dealing with a whole different issue today. Sad, sad, sad.
I know, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and we can't live with shoulda, coulda, woulda, but I'm just.. well, a bit depressed by this whole thing.

I asked a long time ago and he told me that they have been doing this test for years, I had asked that if they did the first few years testing on sick and dead only...no he said they did colony testing and they have been doing it ....this is the accumulation of several years testing and they have tested a lot of lizards, it is over 500 (I joke that I was the only one testing..that was toungue in cheek)..that was just a guess on someone's part and Brian did not give that person a number..what he said/meant was too few for the amount of dragons out there and you have to guess that there are a lot of dragons out there and even several thousand tests are waaaay too few, but they do give the big picture..these are colonies and individual animals from all over the country and the one I imported from Austria..that had no contact with US dragons.

I asked him straight out months ago if he thought all dragons were positive just some were not shedding virus on the date fecals were pulled and he was silent..like it was a thought going through the researchers minds before this and he said he didn't know, he came back with "most dragons are positive".

I had this information months ago which is why I have been so morbid and negative....... I betcha they are all pos and the negs just didn't shed virus in the fecal (only those with test results attached that say otherwise can debate this..if there are no test results attached to your argument please don't bother me)....the PCR results say this to us, the EM results say this to us and you have read the other forms of testing besides the PCR are not as accurate..even the necropsies are not as accurate as the PCR. So the breeders that are saying they think they all have/had this from way back......you can't argue with them (and I engaged into some loud argements with a few of them without any proof on my side..I believed this information that there were many negative colonies at first, I hung on to it..but I never saw one test or any proof, not ever, not one, 0, none,I have asked and asked to speak with these people or to just see one test......they dont exist, can't find them, testing just said they didnt test or if they did, they lied).....the testing methods from before 2003 PCR were not as accurate..that includes biopsies and there have not been many EM tests to date. So now the people I argued with (and it wasn't Rob or Vickie) are laughing at me because I have egg on my face.

So, the people with the negative colonies where are you? You need to tell us you exist and give us some hope because we can't find you in the testing figures or anywhere else.

hi draggintails i feel the same way you do on this hole isue.. all i hear are all positive dragons so just like i really want too see the negative ones but i really dont think any are out there.................... :shrug01: :shrug01:

Tammy, it is curious how you now say that all have this, when you stated you have ones that have tested negative and more than once. You also have positive ones, so are you saying you will not try to keep those negative testing ones negative?

I have necropsy reports that DID look for adenovirus and did not find any evidence of it in a bearded dragon, and not just in liver sections, but through the whole animal. I believed someone at the time that all dragons have this and found out that was not true and yes, spent $400 on one testing alone to try and find it.

How can you say all have this when Universities say they do have negative test and more than once. I know of dragons that have had multiple EM test and are still negative. It's a virus, not a body part, the animals has to contact it sometime from a positive one, it does not just magically happen

You state you imported from Austria and that one was positive, I state I imported from Germany and had negative ones. Englandish breeders state they have negatve ones. Australian ones state that adenovirus is not a problem there or been found much and I may be wonrg, but I understood they have to account for their dragons in captivity and when they die.

AND AGAIN, everyone seems to ignore the fact ALL doctors agree that there are mortalities attributed to positive ones.

No, I do not beleive that all are positive, no one but some breeders state that, the Doctors doing the testing sure do not. Saying we are a lab and do $60 testing and MANY of those are positive is not saying that all are positive. A few online that bought from the same breeders and have some that test positive do not state that cause they also get some negative tests and also the Doctors that do the testing state they are not saying there are not clear ones or can be clear ones and stated there was an obligation to tell people if you have positive ones.

Is it widespread in some lines, oh yes, I do believe it is ... NOW

Did I miss something?

One more thing.. I would really like to know the YEARS they have been doing testing and not using liver biopsy or necropsy, because if that is true, then they lied to me several years ago and I do not beleive they did

The big question, and that has been my question for 5 years. What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

Business as usual? Business as usually but with notice and education to buyers, be they someone just looking for a pet or someone looking for furture breeders.... like a care sheet/info sheet?
What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?

"Tammy, it is curious how you now say that all have this, when you stated you have ones that have tested negative and more than once. You also have positive ones, so are you saying you will not try to keep those negative testing ones negative?

It is curious how you say "many, many colonies have tested negative"....yes??

I beleived everything you said even though you showed me no proof of this, I want to believe so badly...the problem is that I can not afford to listen to fiction and the difference is now I am asking for that proof..I did call FL and IL and they said no, no, and double no. If there are other labs that tested all these negative colonies...send me the info or concede that you have been mislead and mistaken if not send over the info and I can ask them for their stats...labs are happy to do this when asked.

Yes, I do have dragons still holding negative results, I don't know if they are truly negative, Brian can not guarantee them negative..I have asked him over and over. I have tested one baby I bought that was positive on PCR and he did test neg on EM.

Where are the multiple neg EM tests and which lab did these? I know what I can account for in that 63 neg status from IL...who do you know has completed two rounds of neg testing from there? Attachments need to accompany statements like this.......and no one is stealing documents..that was a smokescreen..catching someone stealing is very easy with a phone call to said lab.

I have destroyed animals that were coming back positive and all of my animals have separate cages now, even the females are housed separately..try to keep them negative? you bet. Are they really negative...I don't even know what that means, the vet doesn't either.

"What can we all come together with one plan that we ask breeders to adhere to? Give you Doctors statements with the care sheets? Make them available at shows? or are we back to sweep it under the table like 5 years ago?"

I don't know what is so different from 5yrs ago to now...you can't prove there were negative colonies 5yrs ago....FL has been testing them positive for 4 yrs now......I have asked you repeatedly to provide me proof of these negative coloies( I paid a big price in destroying positive animals and trying to do my part by breeding only negatives..but by God there are no negative animals out there to replace the ones I murdered...I wish I had known)..............you are still talking gobbeldygook to me about negative colonies

show me the money

and I need that info on the other 2 more accurate tests where do they do it and how do I order my kits.....I asked several days ago

I want to test my babies this way if there are more accurate tests than the PCR and stop wasting my money...........Florida has no idea what you are talking about, I have asked them because you will not forward me the information on these tests you speak of.

I know I have been argueing with you in that I think most or all have it that have been tested and you disagree, but the thing is ...I can back up my statement from the testeds and Florida says most have it...they do not have any clean colonies only a few negatives out of all those animals...I know what I can account for from Florida.......who else has negatives from FL?

"One more thing.. I would really like to know the YEARS they have been doing testing and not using liver biopsy or necropsy, because if that is true, then they lied to me several years ago and I do not beleive they did"

You don't need to ask...in the document they state they have been doing PCR for 4yrs now..that's years and they have accumulated enough in those 4yrs to give us some grave news.

"and I need that info on the other 2 more accurate tests where do they do it and how do I order my kits.....I asked several days ago"

Oh, ok Cheri ...Sammy tells me that you were speaking of necropsy and liver biopsy. I honest to God could not tell from your post what you were talking about as we were discussing tests on live lizards..the liver biopsy..I don't even know anyone who submitted their lizards for this..it is scary.

I was going crazy because I couldn't find any other tests. Necropsy is out of the question for me and my vet would never do a liver biopsy when there is PCR..I would have to find another vet to do it.

ALL breeder even small ones lose babies, its a fact of breeding and hatching, it just happens sometimes....why is a necropsy out of the question?

If more breeders did submit babies or adults that do not survive for a necropsy with request specifically to check for adeno, I think it can give a tremendous amount of VALUABLE info and move us closer/faster to some answers. We could see those that actually are positive, PLUS if they are positive, we would learn the affects or LACK of affect of that virus in them, which would tell us what dragons are adversely affected and may help narrow down if there is more than one strain or other factors that can be a catalyst or co-cause of illness. How can that not be more valuable?

If anyone is telling you that those 2 are not accurate, that sure is news to a lot of us and I am sure to the labs that for years diagnosed it and the actually internal damage it was doing or if this was the cause of death/illness

Ashley Zehnder, DVM, UC Davis College of Veterinary Medicine
says

CheriS.
Ive turned my fans on to blow the smoke away. What the heck are the "Two tests" you are talking about? Don't write anything but what the tests are and how they work.
Good Lord! Please let us know!.
Jim.

The truth is regardless, they only tested a very few of the dragons out there in the U.S., I can not believe anyone is taking it that they say all of these dragons are positive based on the very few they have tested. How many dragons are in the U.S., verses the testing they have done? 1,000,000 or more IMO. Truth is, that is based on the very few they have tested.

I also would not look for many that have tested and got negative results to come forward, we know they would start being attacked just like what is happening above in this thread.

Who are you to think you got the right to tell anyone what to say about anything? The reason no one treats you with any respect is because you dont treat anyone with respect yourself.

Sorry Shrap.
Worded a little more blunt then need be. Just trying to get it in simple terms.
Jim

"ALL breeder even small ones lose babies, its a fact of breeding and hatching, it just happens sometimes....why is a necropsy out of the question?"

Dr. Stacey does say a necropsy is not as accurate as PCR for AV detection...he said this, I don't know why then..

He never discussed the liver biopsy with me, never brought it up as a testing method and he never brought up necropsy as a testing method for me.

I was talking about tests for our live lizards, the breeding stock ....they are the most important to test and their babies. Necropsy is out of the question for determining if a healthy lizard is AV pos.

I don't want to do a liver biopsy on them.....doc would kill me, bringing in a colony of dragons for liver biopsy......the cost for this would be super I bet...and I don't want to test these nice babies this way. Very unreasonable to do a biopsy and I don't know anyone who has even tested that I have seen the test paper this way..not one person.

I had thought you meant there were 2 more accurate tests for live healthy lizards...yes I do know we can do biopsy on live healthy lizard.

I hounded you because I was excited, I couldnt fathom it was these two tests you were suggesting to me...these are clearly unreasonable for testing my colony.

I am fascinated with who these people are that are taking in colonies for liver biopsy...whole colonies yeidling many, many negatives with their liver biopsies? A truck full of lizards going to the vet?

JimD,

It is liver biopsy and necropsy...relax, go have some coffee, some eggs and that good bacon you guys are so stingy with.

Draggintails.
Thank you.
Shrap.
You were right yesterday.
Jim

Jim, I will not even bother to answer your question addressed to me
1) it is in several places on a few threads including this one and 30 seconds on a search engine will give you the answers if you can no comprehend what I say and others have already repeated.
2) it is rude with no basic for being like that :NoNo:
3) as far as I know, no one crowned you a king of anything and me a subject to you :ack2: that you can command me to only type certain things on any public forum. I think you are in the master/puppet mode a little too much and it becomes a way of life
4) Everytime we try to start having discussion on a thread that is to try and work towards something that we as a group can agree on or brainstorm regarding this for the health and possible future of this species, it seems like this crap starts on it. Turn on fans??? don't write anything but what I tell you??? dance puppet dance!! :rolleyes:

The big question, and that has been my question for 5 years. What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

*Business as usual? <--That has been the option of breeders that knew this for at least 5-6 years that I know of and personally I think that sucks and has caused the amount of positive that are being seen now :shootfoot
*Business as usually but with notice and/or education to buyers, be they someone just looking for a pet or someone looking for future breeders.... like a care sheet/info sheet?
*Breeders that are positive acknowledging it openly on their sites or when they sell?
*What can we all come together with one plan that we ask anyone selling positive dragons to adhere to? INFORM the Buyers?
*Give out Vet/Researchers statements with the care sheets?
*Make them available at shows in the US through promoters? Online sites? Referral to a location online to read the info with them sold?
*Ask Pet stores to participate?
*Breeder/owners come up with a plan of action and routine that makes less stress on babies when they move from breeder to new owner and then how the new owner should handle the situation there? One breeder who has a thread on FC, has complaints about babies getting very sick and/or dying shortly after arriving in their new homes, yet some breeder have rare complaints like that and it is believed because of the ways those babies are cared for at the breeder facility and then prepared for shipping... do we improve on that to lessen the ones having "stress related complication" that are positive?
*Ask breeders/owners to conduct a necropsy on dragons that die without a easily seen reason and to make sure that specifically looks for markers of adenovirus for being the cause? Report those to a central group?
With just one of those negative in the owner/breeder hands, they have proof that a dragon in their colony or at least that sibling in a clutch, did not show any trace of adenovirus that caused illness and death or that It DID SHOW IT. As I said before and many times that I can not seem to get across, that is much more valuable than a test that detects ANY species virus or detects a possible one that is not a cause of illness or death!

A necropsy can be done for very little cost, I have more than one place that does them free and have referred others to them that were tested for adenovirus over the last 5 years. Even if not free, you can have a section done for about $40 and if they detect possible markers for adenovirus, advance studies sent out for $30.

There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!

Tammy;
RE: years of testing, it is my understanding that the first lizard sequence of information of adenovirus which included bearded dragons was done in 2004 and published in Dec 2004. When you said several years I took that to mean more than a few or a lot longer than this. This is not a big deal, but my point was that some of us were testing with the means available prior to PRC and those were as accurate as they looked for markers of DISEASE, not just any adenoviral cell that could mean nothing and we were getting negatives.

Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional.

Jacobson:All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons

Some breeders years ago knew :yesnod: they had a fatal form as they had death and illness in their colonies because they had a necropsy that showed it. How was that handled? I know, it was sweep under the table, business as usually.

Jacobson:How do you think Julain, Durhan, Fyre, Kim, MItchell, Bauer, Poston, Cho the list can go on a long ways, including Jacobson, knew these were adenovirus related deaths or illness or that is was even adenovirus before PRC or it was sequenced that they did their prior published studies from?

What can and are we going to do? Nothing? Notes on a page? Any other suggestions ideas or others that want to expand or oppose some of the above? or is it sweep under again?

CheriS "Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional".

There is no misunderstanding....I do understand my conversations with Dr. Stacey and section 5.4 of the new document he states the two most common methods as PCR and EM..............since I have live animals...He did most certainly say that he knows of no other testing method than the PCR and EM for my live animals. He did NOT mention the liver biopsy and naturally he did not mention the necropsy for my live animals.

CheriS "There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!" That would be Light Microscopy? But AV has to be detected another way first and then the LM can detect if illness was attributed to it

Jacobson: Light Microscopy is neither sensitive nor specific, and either a positive or negative diagnosis of infection by Light Microscopy needs to be confirmed by other means.

CheriS: All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons"

yes, absolutely...we hear you and if an animal is ill or dead it should be liver biopsied maybe or if dead should be sent for necropsy to find out what is going on............however, and this is where the misunderstanding came in possibly ......I was discussing tests for live and healthy animals...so when you mentioned 2 more accurate tests that were being ignored (which is the liver biopsy and necropsy you say) I became excited.

CheriS: What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

Dr. Brian Stacey :Tammy, we are in a somewhat frustrating time right now because there is so much unknown about adenoviruses and associated disease. It would be ideal to achieve a completely negative colony; however, I forewarn you that it may be very difficult because prevalence appears to be so high and adenovirus is incredibly stable in the environment.

Well first we have to find those negatives and figure out what negative means

I have some verifiable with IL and FL and according to statistics there are less than 80 resulting negatives that participated in the testing from 2003 to date from Florida and recently with IL.

If any other labs did testing we could info from them.

The doctors just stated they are unsure when this entered the dragon population so that is something to consider...it might have always, always been here.............dragons are not exempt from the laws of this planet that the rest of us are subject to.

also, with such a small number of negatives are they an inferior animal? How is the immune system of this animal when exposed to this virus..and he will be exposed most likely. Is the healthy positive a superior and victorious animal?

the dragon I imported from Austria..he had no contact with US dragons.....he went to NJ where we had no other dragons..his fecal was pulled within 48 hrs of arrival and he was positive. Something does not make sense.......and until all the other countries PCR their animals... I PCR'd one from Austria...positive..so what do you think the chances of that whole colony being positive if he was????

We did not have PCR available until 2003, the EM is not sensitive and give false negatives making you think they are neg the necropsy is not all that accurate with the LM for detecting AV..so the people that actually spent the time and money to necropsy a dead lizard might have gotten back a negative for AV on it. Look, we can argue this till Bess wanders up but, here it is: here were no tests for live animals before these and no one had liver biopsies on healthy animals...never heard of this even....who had this done? So, the possibility that it was always here, always everywhere should be considered and the breeders being blamed for this has to stop.

CherS: protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week)

of course they will, I did....but there are no clean colonies.

OK, so Cheri WAS referring to a liver biopsy on a LIVE dragon? I thought she was too but I don't think that question was answered, or if it was I didn't see it. I agree with your above statement, Tammy BTW.

I do think that anything is possible. But, I do not think it is likely that dragons have always had this virus. I do know Reptile Rooms has been tracking where positives came from for quite some time and it seems to lead back to certain lines. I also believe it was around before that, but probably in small numbers. This is just my opinion. I also think the most important issue is not whom to blame, but where to go from here.

Is there anyway to find out how many colonies were tested at the Univ of FL? I thought this test used to cost much more than $60 and it was used to confirm the presence of adenovirus in sick animals versus testing healthy appearing animals to see if they are carriers of the virus. In other words, how many of the animals tested were already suspected of having adenovirus and how many animals were tested because a private owner/breeder wanted to know if their dragons carried this virus but were otherwise healthy? It is important to know the numbers for each category. I do think that their tests show that this is wide spread, but I do not think that 500 tests without any distinction between dragons with symptoms vs asymptomatic dragons is an adequate representation of the entire U.S. bearded dragon population.

Now, let's assume that 90% of the dragon population has this. If Sandfire produced 9000 babies last year and Dachiu produced 4000 that is 13,000 total. 1,300 would represent adeno negative dragons. But, there are way more dragons than that in the U.S. Say, there are 100,000 dragons. That would mean roughly 10,000 are adeno free. I feel that there have got to be adeno negative dragons out there and it is premature to act on the assumption that all bearded dragons have this virus.

Wendy: "I do know Reptile Rooms has been tracking where positives came from for quite some time and it seems to lead back to certain lines."

the other part of the equation is......how many negatives tests were seen by reptile rooms? Not heard about but actually seen with eyeballs? I don't think any. That there is a big, huge problem...and the one I am making so much NOISE about. So tracking the positives means absolutely nothing, nothing at all, if negative test results belonging to other animals in that colony were not viewed, seen, witnessed in some way by the organization doing the tracking. Ebb and flow must be tracked equally or there is nothing to track. I asked Cheri this and she said that she did not actually see the negative tests but people just told her they were negative,that just isn't right, information must be verified, friendships be damned...I understand this though because you don't think that someone is lying about being negative and she does trust. So, I don't know about tracking positives..which is pointless...should be tracking the negatives..then have to have an attachment and have persmission to verify with the lab. Takes up space in the computer but then you can forward this information and it can be used for statistics.

Maybe sickness was tracked do you mean? Like sick animals that were positive and people reporting where the sick animals were coming from?

I don't understand this number 500 in referring to tests Florida has completed. Sounds like: from whiskersmom who was talking to Dachius, who heard it from Randy who talked to Brian on Thursday... hoodypole correct? I get one cookie for that one if so.


No, Brian did not give him that number..it was a hypothetical guess on Randy's part, Florida did not give him that number and he will tell you so ...they have way more than 500 submissions. Most from people who did not think they had it in their colony. The paper says most were asymptomatic animals. They were pets and breeding colonies submitted. That lab has spent more time calming down so many bewildered breeders and owners who thought they were totally clean (me included) freaked out and shocked at the test results...than they do running their tests.

Well, until someone comes up with the negative dragons and test results that I can see with my eyeballs (and verified with said lab) they are few and far between. It is not good to believe. ... you have to verify stuff.
Where are we going to get negative dragons, they have been exposed to the virus from the others in their colony....mom goes to the pet store la la la, to the reptile show la la la..the cricket guy feeds his dragons and la la la and packages up your crickets (that cricket does have dragons in his office by the way and he plays with them too..yep really) it is very hard to keep them isolated.


I don't know, but regarding Cheri's question and it is a good one and yours about where do we go from here?.....I can't speak for anybody else and I really don't care at this point...people in this situation have been dishonest, deceitful and of poor quality.

I have destroyed most of my colony, what I have left I thought was adeno free because I was not educated...they have negative tests..translation (got that from Schrap): were not shedding viral on the last fecal submission. I have bred them, the babies are big and pretty, they are healthy (we do not have sick or die offs and we never have). We do not guarantee they are adeno free, if you must have this, then go find some wacko that will give it to you and pass me by...(when you find that guaranteed baby, test it right after it is shipped and stressin..then call me).

I will guarantee as always, that the baby is thriving..if not return it. Other than that I have made great sacrifices trying to acheive a negative colony, that I thought was negative in the first place. I will continue to test periodically for my own records and I will continue to learn about this and attend as many conferences as I can and order transcriptions from the lectures that I can not attend. That's all anyone can do.



I

Wow, someone with negative dragons is a "wacko" now.

I sure hope that entire post was meant as an opinion, because I did not read any facts. Just more people pushing their opinions.

I agree Sammy, the same thing has been going on for a long time in these forums, when I was looking back at the archives.

Tammy, you get a cookie! :) My bad for throwing that number in there. I was under the impression (please correct me if I am wrong) that there were going to be statistics released in this paper. I understand that over 90% of the dragons tested positive. That is part of it. But where are the rest of the statistics? How many dragons were tested? From how many colonies? How many were suspected of having adenovirus and were showing some type of symptoms? How many were otherwise healthy and the owner was testing to see if they carried the virus? What part of the U.S. were the dragons from? Where did they origante from? Was it more prevalent in some areas of the country? I do think that all of these questions should be answered before anyone makes a generalized statement that most bearded dragons in the U.S. have adenovirus.

In regards to Reptile Rooms. It is my understanding that they have been tracking dragons that have either had a necropsy done that showed adenovirus or confirmed via fecal em or pcr. The tracking is for dragons showing illness/death and adenovirus was found in the dragon.

I know that emotions run high with this (mine included at times). I do think there are negatives out there and testing is the only way to find them. If indeed it is even a very small percentage, it is still a significant number when you look at the size of the U.S. dragon population. I am not ready to give up on this. I hope you are not either, because it is obvious you love your dragons and you are looking for concrete answers when there are few if any available.

I was disappointed there were no numbers as well, let's see if we can at least tell us how many owners sent in submissions.

I meant "they". I will ask him if he will provide this information for us.

Why is it only a "wacko" could have negative dragons?

From what I read of what she wrote, only a "wacko" would feel they are AV neg even with testing done. There is still guarantee that a neg proves to stay neg.

Just my opinion on what Ive read.

Jim

Sorry.
Should say There is still no guarantee that a neg proves to stay neg.
Jim

Jim, are you the expert? I do not know how you can be so closed minded and believe only what your boss thinks. I though you were looking for answers like the rest of us, but it seems you are still at work.

Bobby.
No not quite. I read the letter. We need a lot more testing done to answer the rest of everyones questions. What are the neg to pos. Without more testing that number will be all over the board. The same people need to test multiple times and the doctors need to keep track of the old negs that turn pos.
Im not saying there are not negitives out there. Im asking how many are going to stay negitive?
Jim

I agree, but did you not say yours was clean before? I might be wrong, but I think you said that your dragons are clean too.

Bobby.
I can say 100% that I have never said Im clean of AV. I cant even find where to get the testing done here yet. I think there is a very good chance seeing as a lot of my dragons came from all over the States.
We are activly looking around so we can test. In the meantime, if asked, I will answer most likely.
I will not argue or fight over AV any more. The paper came out and we can all make of it what we want.

Jim.

I have negative test results verifiable with Florida and IL.


I meant only a wacko would give a negative guarantee on a baby, I was thinking of Chastity and she was making this premature gaurantee with great conviction. I think she is not all there.

Yes, I see clearly that I said only wackos have negative dragons. It is written plain as day and I retract that.

Tammy

This is like beating a head against a wall

Tammy,

When we started in 2002 tracking positive with death and illness dragons there was no PCR or EM tests to test dragons with to find negative ones. We were tracing an illness, not a healthy factor..... a dying, illness and failure to thrive disease to see what was the cause, if it was able to be stopped and if there were other factors involved in it.

You keep wanting to condemn me for not tracking and seeing negative dragons. We were doing illness verified by full necropsy. There was no other option to verify, but liver bios and those were done on sick dragons, not healthy ones, we even experiment with some antiviral medications on some dragons.... there was no reason to test healthy ones. Those did list Adenovirus as cause of death or a contributing factor. There were some that also found other issues, like coccidia, pinworms, coronavirus, dependo virus, aspergillus, fusarium, we collected what was available for DISEASE, not health. Some showed only adenovirus, and there were also some that showed there was NO trace of adenovirus at all and yes, I have seen those with my own eyes, I had them myself. We were looking at fatal disease... PCR or EM does NOT do that.

The one overwhelming thing that became clear that first year (2002) is that almost every single case/owner/colony traced back to ONE breeder in Florida (not you or your Dad, I want to make that clear). Later that year that breeder sold all his dragons off and stopped breeding and we saw another mass breeder start having cases traced to them and from pet stores they sold too, besides the first one still. The next year there was a big drop in reports and then suddenly it increases again in 2005 from several different breeders, but still most the cases are going back to one of these 2 breeders offsprings. The same breeder that the dragons that Dr. Wentz did his study from originated from in 2000 and that at least 2 dozen other owners trace to right then... disease, dying and ill.

I think it was significant that not a single reported case of death and illness that was confirmed related to adenovirus was coming from 3 of the largest breeders in the US during this time, who are on the West Coast.... WHY? We felt it had to have something to do with what was coming out of these other 2 breeder's collections (now one as the other was went out of business). By this time EM testing was available through a vet in MO that was trying to work with this virus as he has seen many cases of it and we referred people to him. In 2005 we heard about the PCR and started telling people about that (it was published in Dec 2004) and in August 2006 we heard about the EM at the Univ of IL was available direct now too and referred people to that. This is when breeders and owners started testing not only ill animals, but also healthy animals and we STOPPED collecting any data as it was no longer about disease. Later I found out that neither of these test, verified illness and one does not even verify that it is adeno that affects bearded dragons, it can be another species adeno they have ingested from food or the environment!

When "A" in 1997-2002 sells to "B", "C", and "D" and they all sell offspring in 2000-2003 to several others who sell offspring in 2005-2006 and ALL of those have disease, death and failure to thrive too, with necropsy linking it to the same thing, there is a problem with that and it needs to be looked into. It is can not be all of their husbandry, some of these are very good breeders. There is then a slow down in 2004 and then it blooms again in 2005-2006.. yet almost all still go back to those same earlier breeders and from them to the first one in 2002 that was selling in 1997-2002.

We tracked Disease, not health and I had no reason not to believe people about illness and death..... who would want to lie about that!!

EM tells you SOME kind of adenovirus is present, it does not tell you what species, strain (if there are other) or disease related to it

PCR tells you the species, but not what strain (if there are others) or disease related to it

Liver bio or necropsy with advance studies like in situ or PRC does tell you the species AND disease..... we were looking at disease, and it was in consistant lines and breeders, not all dragons certain had that, not even close and not all were positive either, that is a wrong statement and no one is wacky that has that. I do not know if ones positive for ANY adeno are a threat, no one knows the answer to that, hey certainly are not if it is canine, feline, human or another specie adeno in the fecal... ...we were never looking at that and had no reason to be till these 2 test came out that do not show disease.

There is no doubt that it feels like you're beating your head against a wall Cheri, I'm sure Tammy feels the same way, and I'm not sure that even talking about all the history is that important right now. I mean no disrespect when I say that, it just isn't going to change anything :(
I also know this after talking to Tammy, she paid a very high price for trying to do the right thing, and there is absolutely no one who can understand how she feels right now without walking a mile in her shoes. I know its absolutely no consolation, but I have a lot of respect for her and what she has to say.

At this point, we all know that a couple people have been horribly impacted, not only by adenovirus, but also simply by not enough information.
Where do we go from here??