Is This a Good Idea?
 

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/phot...sort/1/cat/524

Check out the picture above then tell me if this is a good idea. Looks like an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps it is a venomoid and he/she is just trying to get a "rise" out of people by not mentioning that? If it is truly "hot" then they are just asking for trouble. In my opinion.

Well now..........we see
 

why laws are passed if this person gets nabbed if this is not venomoid. Even if it is , it 's not the type of thing we want to propell in an image of venomous keepers or collectors. Maybe the person considers the snake to be low toxin because it is a juvenile ? And maybe if envenomated it won't be to serious. Probably true but still...................

Has someone informed Lonermon of this thread? Perhaps he'd come here and explain his thoughts on this.

I don't know how old the neonate in the picture is, but it seems that I read something somewhere that if it is 1 - 10 hrs old it doesn't use its venom yet. (help me out here) But they are just as deadly, if not more so that the adult is at that age.

Well, it says in the title that it is about six months old...I wonder when he is going to start going to church and dancing around with it?
greg

I think it might be a stretch to call a cottonmouth "deadly". While I won't argue that they can inflict a nasty bite, I live in an area abundant with cottonmouths and have not heard of a death in decades. Certainly the very young and the very elderly are at higher risk for a serious reaction, a normal healthy male doesn't have much risk of death. I, myself, would be more concerned about a reaction to the antivenin than the snakebite itself.

Actually, it is not a stretch to call a cottonmouth deadly..... They can and do kill....... There was a cotton bite that proved to be deadly not too long ago....... Within 6 years or so...... Heck, people have even died as a result of a copperhead bite..... Venomous snakes are able to use their venom as soon as they are born..... They are not deadlier than the adults..... That is an old wives tale...... A neonate is not able to do more or even as close to as much damage as an adult because of the simple fact that they have a much smaller yeild...... The venom of a neonate is not any more toxic than an adults...... But it may be true that neonates do not have as much control over the amount of venom injected in a bite..... Anyway, venomous snake should be respected and not freehandled no matter how "mild" their venom is considered......

Considering that the U.S. averages 12 fatal snake bites per year, and 99% of those are from rattlesnakes, I think it's a stretch. You're much more likely to be killed by a dog or a bee sting.

That being said, you won't find me freehandling anything venomous, and I don't find it a responsible thing to do (mostly because of the bad impression it gives of hobbyists).

Mistake
 

Unless this animal is a venomoid, or venom void as I call them,...YES this is a bad idea. But it's not an accident waiting to happen, it's an incident waiting to happen. And when it does happen, and it will, sooner or later, it will be just one more nail in the coufin of herpeticulture. Our hobby is under attack every day by zealots from PETA and The Humane Society because of irresponsible stuff like this. Every time some hot keeper gets bit, it makes the powers that be alittle more prejudice against us. And then they pass another stupid law which makes us ALL suffer. Please don't do this. I don't care if it's venomoid or not. It makes us all look bad, and it makes us all pay!
T.

First off this person is obviously breaking the Florida laws for Hot keeping! He came to TRR asking how or who he can be trained for his VRL "venomous reptile license." It is not a good idea to ever handle a venomous snake that way. venomous snakes are born with venom and the ability to use it upon their first breath.

Here is his thread on TRR http://thereptileroom.org/forum/inde...2817entry12817
Screen shot not working right now but here is the thread. I will also lock it so it can not be deleted or edited at this point. Below is a cut n paste of it.

venemous training wanted
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Lonermon
Posted: Dec 22 2004, 10:32 PM
i live in ft lauderdale and wan t to get my venemous license . i have been handling and catching both venemous and non venemous snakes since i was a teenager . i have 3 days off a week and am willign to put in the time . any assistance you can give would be helpfull . please respond here or email me at lonermon@yahoo.com ( please put the heading "venemous training " so that i dont delete it as spam )
Thanks
Turtle

Casual Herper


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I emailed Lonormon about this thread.

I really wish people would not free handle hot snakes. It really gripes me to no end when I see it. There are plenty of ways to handle them w/o getting your hand right up near their face.

I really would like to know why people do this. Is it machismo, testosterone, beer, age-related (some young people think they're invincible) or just pure ignorance of the consequences?

I read somewhere that approximately 95% of the snakebites in the U.S. involve alcohol....and it ain't the snake that's drinkin'! :beer:

Reading your question also makes me curious as to what percentage of venomous snake bite victims are male vs. female! :raspberry sorry guys, I can't help but to wonder!

This is not a good idea at all. Besides breaking the Florida laws he is showing total disregaurd for other venomous keepers by posting pictures of him free handing. This could come back to bite him in the ass if he ever gets bitten, and I don't care how docile a snake is all it takes is one time and you are tagged. Be it a mistake by you or the little fellow having a bad scale day, but once you are bitten there is no explaining your disreguard for being a responsible keeper.

They typical demographic for an "illegitimate" snakebite victim in the U.S. (illegimate referring to the purposeful interaction with a venomous snake, as opposed to an accident, i.e. stepping on one while out in the field) is a male between 20-40, and alcohol is almost always a contributing factor.

<copied from my comments on the picture pages and added to >
thanks for all the comments

1) yes i am well aware of the fact that this is a venemous snake , and i have seen the results of her venom on live mice .

2) its not because of "people like me " that anythign is being banned .i have never been bitten by a hot snake ,nor have i ever caused anyone else to be bitten .

3) im familiar with the temperment of all my snakes . this particular snake is VERY docile . having been handled by me since jsut after birth .

4)althjough i dont even begin to say that there is no possability of her striking this shot was taken on a cool day , her having been recently fed as well . at the time of the photo ( which ws taken without flash ) she was nerly dormant

no she is not a venemoid . no i didnt take this picture to "get a rise" out of people . i took this picture to show off her coloring .
cottonmouths ARE venemous . but not lethal . but thats nto to say that id be willign to get bit jsut becasue it woudnt be lethal . theres a reason i have never been bit . and to those of you that are gonna say " no matter how docile the snake is , no matter how cold it was , no matter how well you know its temperment . your still stupid and asking to be bit " . well i suggest you never get in a car , because no matter how long youve been driving or how alert you are the possability still exhists for you to be killed in a horrible accident.

in my case . no its not age related ( Im in my late 30's) . drug or alcohol related ( as i do neither) . machismo . or ignorance . and far as invincible , <grin> i only wish .

its experience with the snake in question . i would never dream of handling an unknown snake liek this . if the picture so offends others i will go ahead and remove it ( if i can)

just as a point of intrest . thanks to several people for pointing me to someone that was willign to offer training . startign next week i will be gettign trainign 2-3 days a week with experienced and licensed handlers .

[quote=Mustangrde1]First off this person is obviously breaking the Florida laws for Hot keeping!

to any and all of you that have made comments about me breakign the law . your making an awfull big jump . the truth is although this is my snake you ASSUME that its beign kept illegally . thats a pretty big assumption . i guess its jsut impossible that its kept in a properly secured container or approved enviroment , that its not being kept int he possession of a licensed handler untill i can complete my training and get my license . i dunno about you but i was tought not to make assumptions , let alone throw out accusations of people breakign the law .

Interesting how you state that you are looking to be trained, It strikes me as very strange that if as you say and So why would you be asking for trainning if it is with a licensed keeper? Who is this licensed Keeper? Obviously if it is with a licensed keeper you would have a resource for trainning so why are you asking for a trainer in your area?

Lot of things sound not in order. Would you enlighten us to the questions above?

the difference between having found a store willing to board my snake and finind someone that is willing to spend the time to help me in training is the difference between what you think you know and what is really going on . and if you for a minute think im gonna give you the name of either where i have my snake boarded or where im gettign training ,your well out of your head . you might wanna take a step back into your own life and not delve so deeply into mine .

[quote=Mustangrde1]Interesting how you state that you are looking to be trained, It strikes me as very strange that if as you say and So why would you be asking for trainning if it is with a licensed keeper?

the reality is that there are places that offer boardign of venemous snakes that do not offer training . the whole reason that i want to get the training is so that i can legally own and possess venemous snakes . well thats not the truth . thats the largest part of the reason , another important part is i only know what i have read and from personal experience of having grown up handling snakes . i want to learn more from othjers that have more formal or specific training . i neither have the time nor money to go back to school , but i am willing to volenteer my time to learn what i want and get my venemous license .

now at this point i think i have answered any legitimate questions . to persue this any further would be an intrusion into my personal life or merely insults . and as I dont feel the necessity of giving you or anyone else personal information and im not inclined to get into insults i wont adress any further comments on this subject .

Here is a legit question..... How can you justify freehandling a mocc.... And who told you they can not kill you...... There is a person that fequents thes forums that can tell you differently...... Infact he owns one that killed a person.... So you held the mocc in your hands to show off its colors???? I keep gaboons and never felt the need to hold them in my hands to show coloration..... That is just about the stupidest thing I have read yet..... And yes people like you do bad things for this hobby including getting it banned..... You will get bitten one day but I guess that is natures way of getting rid of bad genetics..... Too bad it impacts our hobby so much when some dummy gets bitten......

I just hope the person who decided to train him knows that he freehandles venomous herps. Not because of machismo, of course, we all know that color shows better when subject is in hand, and not on some background that would highlight colors, but I digress. I would not want someone around my herps who was into freehandling, even if they say they won't, because you can't keep your eye on them the whole time, and the urge would be to great. Maybe he has found someone who is also into freehandling, there are people who do it, even some that are labled, arguably as experts.

the URGE ? you make me laugh .i swaer you all think your a bunch of psychics and detectives . and i have no intentions of freehandling any of the snakes that i will be workign with .primarily because i would not want to endanger the training that i am so glad to be gettign , then theres the fact that i would never want to put them through the hassle if somethign did happen . then there's the fact that i dont know anythign about the temperment of the snakes that i will be workign with . and of course th fact hat i sure as heck dont wanna get bit . so before anyone else tries to GUESS casue thats all they are , and there bad guesses at that . my motivation or thoughs for ANYTHING i do , dont do it . if you dont knwo me , and none of you do . you are in no position to try and analise me .give it a rest your gettign boring :scatter:

justify ? i dont attempt or feel necessary to jsutify anythign . i merely explain . as for them not beign able to kill , well i simply refer to statistics for that information . as for why the picture was taken with me holding her well , it wasnt possible to get a good shot at her inside the cage and as far as other backgrounds i would never let my snake out of my hands ( or hooks ) when its outside the cage . without settign it down somewhere , which i had no intention of doing around someoen that deosnt handle snakes , there wasnt really a good backdrop .im not a breeder or a seller that has a setup already made for pictures im merely a guy that catches and raises snakes . i wont allow a flash to be used when im holding a snake so i had to be nearer to the light source .and i guess it was foolish of me to think that people would appreciate the opportunity to see a snake that they might otherwise not have . but ALL ive gotten is bs from peopel trying to tell me what i think and having all kinds accusations from me being stupid ( with an iq of 189 ?) to how im breakign the law ( when in fact the snake is with a licensed handler) . and as for the dummies that get bit well i cant really comment on them , becasue im not amung them . not once by a hot snake in probably 15 years of catching in the wild . ive removed the "offending" picture and still i have to deal with this crap . hey i got an idea . lets take everyone that has or has ever had a venemous snake ,licensed or no,t and trace it back . can you tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that every snake youve ever bought or sold has not ever been "freehandled" . if youve ever bought or sold a snake that was cought in the wild and you havent verified that that snake was never free handled then i accuse you , buy actually paying money for that snake ( money being a far greater influence than a picture ) of puttign others at risk than i have with my picture. of course if youve only bought from reliable breeders and had them sign an notorized afadavid that they have never and will never "freehandle " snakes , then consider yourself exempt and free of any blame whatsoever . untill that point look to thyself before castign blame on others .

Lonermon, I don't keep venomous (closest thin I have is a western hognose!) but you have to realize that posting a picture like that w/o any type of explanation is going to get quite a negative reaction from most people. What if someone posted a picture of themselves pointing a gun at or holding a knife to their head, hand, foot, etc...and then the only comment they add to the picture is how nice the weapon looks and how long they've had it in their collection. Maybe that's a bad comparison. I don't keep venomous nor do I collect weapons so maybe I should just be quiet! haha. But I'm just trying to help you understand maybe why your picture got the reaction it did. And it is true that when people are not careful about the animals they keep and they or someone else gets hurt or killed...it does make the news and it does affect everyone else's freedom to keep similar animals. It's just not fair to those who are responsible keepers/owners. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

no you have every right to comment and i appreciate that you kept your comments on a realistic plane and didnt attempt to second guess me or throw accusatiosn at me . in retrospect i see your point .but like i had previously stated , i didnt post the picture to encourage others to freehandle snakes, but rather to give peope a chance to see a variety of snake they otherwise migh not get to . to be honest i dont think anyone that saw the [picture will decide to go out and catch or buy a venemous snake , freehandle it ,get bit , die , and suddenly there be a ban on snakes . but yet thats basically what im being accused of . by peopel that themselves have more than likely ,unless they can provide the documentation that i earlier mentioned , had a much greater influence than i on others freehandling snakes . in fact if im correct there were only 16 people that viewed the picture before i removed it . of course i dont know how many peopel saw it in this thread , im not even sure weither it was pasted or the link listed in the original post .

jsut a quick note . Steve Irwin and at least one of his assistants have been bitten on national tv by snakes far more dangerous than any i have ever or probably will ever handle .as tv might possible have a broader impact than the 16 or so people that viewed my picture maybe you ( not you personally , but those that have chosen to get on my case) would be better suited to starting a thread against him . :scatter:

See now, I do not see the logic in any of your post...... And for someone that claims to have a 189 IQ you have some pretty poor spelling..... Plus free handling hots and photographing it is just about the stupidest thing one can do...... But that is beside the point..... You would have been much better off posting a pic of that snake in its cage..... You do not bring the snake to the light source..... You bring the light to the snake..... I do not use a flash on my snakes when I photograph them either..... I use lighting...... Lame excuses...... I think you were actually trying to show people here that you have balls......

The big majority of hot keepers do not free handle their hots...... There are a very very small number of people that do..... And if you must know, I only buy animals from the best in the hobby that have the same veiws on how these animals should be respected as I do...... It is great that you wanted to show everyone your snake but it is nothing unusual..... Infact most neonate cottons look exactly like that...... Like I said the picture would have been much more welcome if it was not in your hands..... There is absolutly no good reason to free handle a hot...... Even medicating or force feeding a sick one can be done without beig so exposed to it...... No matter how you slice it your acts and reasoning are beyond dumb and do no good for this hobby that is slowly being taken away from us..... People like you just speed up the banning actually......

Ehh... he mentioned Irwin as some kind of positive and took photographs of himself freehandling. The guy is clearly a moron. End of story. No debate. I have spoken.

And you know what, I appreciate that. Just like with Steve Irwin's show, I appreciate that I have been able to see and learn about so many different types of animals across the world. However, he catches a lot flack too because of his methods. (and you are catching it too cause of the methods you used to take your picture) I personally think Iriwn pesters the animals too much. But he does often say to us viewers that if we should come across a snake to leave it alone. So basically he is saying "do as I say not as I do...I've been doing this a long time, I know what I am doing, and I am willing to put myself in a dangerous situation so you can get a good look at these animals and learn about them." And yes I know there's more to it than just that (I'm sure they are also interested in the ratings, the money, etc...)

But if Steve Irwin gets bit and dies from it, I seriously doubt it will have any affect on the regular person's ability to keep venomous animals. It's when it happens to the average joe that it gets in the local papers and on the news...and then that person's neighbors all of a sudden know that these "dangerous" animals had been living right next door to them. That's when people can get together and push for a ban on "exotic" animals.

I have seen other pictures posted on other sites receive the same reaction as yours did. I think venomous keepers are in constant worry that they will lose their freedom to keep such animals. I even worry about it happening where I live, even though most of my collection consists of corn snakes. A snake is a snake to a lot of people...whether it's a corn snake, a burmese python, or a rattlesnake. I recently saw some pictures on another site showing huge burmese pythons who have free roam of the house, and the owner more than once posted comments bragging about his "security system". I find that totally irresponsible and another example of a serious incident waiting to happen. One that could very well have a negative effect on other people's ability to keep large pythons like that.

I agree with a previous post that your reason for free-handling was not a good one. I don't think picture taking could ever possibly be a valid reason for free-handling a hot snake. However, I think it'd be great if you could set up some lighting so you can take pictures of him/her in it's enclosure. I'm sure everyone would appreciate seeing pictures of your pretty snake taken that way.

Happy New Year, and Peace!

Traci

Good point Seamus..... That in its self shows the level at which this person operates.... LOL

Oh and Traci, for someone that does not keep hots, you have a great outlook on the situation..... I appluad you and your comments.....

Thank you Gregg, that was nice to say. I must admit I have a little bit of a yearning to keep a hot snake (NEVER thought I'd say that)...but I know I am not ready. Maybe I never will be. That is a HUGE responsibility, just HUGE. They are so beautiful and fascinating. Luckily the show closest to me (Hamburg, PA) allows hots. My favorites to look at are albino monacled cobras, eyelash vipers, albino rattlesnakes, and gaboon vipers. But if I were to ever keep one I'd most likely start with a copperhead. But I don't know if that day will ever come. I do have some not so trustworthy, not so calm corn snakes that I unintentionally 'practice' with. I don't handle them in the same way I handle the others, I handle them so I don't get bit!! It hurts!! :bawling:

Thanks again

lonerman, im not trying to argue here, but a 189 iq puts you near einsteins intellegence. (200 something) now looking at the misspelling errors and other errors, it would make me think otherwise about your true iq level. scince you just called yourself a genius......

now i USED to keep cottonmouths a long time ago (when i was 14-16). HECK i even free handled them, BUT looking back at what i was doing i realized how stupid i was for it. now im just a man of average intellect (156 iq) and i know that your picture you posted is just asking for trouble.

also, the comparison to owning a venemous snake and driving is a weak comparison. because if we get in a wreck its normal and nothing bad would happen cause of it. a venemous owner who gets bit and DOESNT have the permit to even own the snake is a blackeye on the HERP community. just like traci said, stuff would happen because of it.

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/anim...hter_ohio.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...13-snake_x.htm

those are just some examples. even if you dont die itll still make news headlines...

Been a tad busy with other things so kinda ignored this till now.

So was this picture taken at a "STORE" if so I know of NO stores that would allow freehandling of the snake in thier store as it opens them to criminal and civil liability. Not to mention a bite in thier store would send the insurance rates through the roof.

So if it was not in a store where was it and who got it out of its cage?

This is the bussiness of any and all person who responcibly keep reptiles as this type of behavior does impact our hobby in very negative ways.

Okay so we've got a genius here. Apparently English is his second language because he can't spell, cannot use punctuation correctly and doesn't know where to use capital letters except when he NEEDS it. LOL

A car accident is just that . . . an accident. An accident could be someone else's fault.
Freehandling a venomous snake is asking to get bit. It will not be an accident if you get bit and it will be YOUR fault.

It's just a baby so how can you know it's temperament after only having it a few months? You say that it hasn't been at your house. So you don't have a chance to see it every day. So what if the snake was cold, it can still bite.

Here's a story that proves that no venomous snake is "safe" to free handle:
(sorry but I couldn't find the newspaper clipping and I'm trying to get it from the newspaper) This happened in 2001 in Pilot Knob, Missouri. The snake was a timber rattlesnake.

Two guys killed a rattlesnake. They cut its head off. One guy took the head home and the other one took the body home. The one w/the head managed to get bit by the head while fooling around with it and his wife took him to the ER for treatment. According to the guy, it was about 1 hour after they killed the snake. Oh, they took the head to the ER too. Can you say stooopid.

I don't own venomous snakes, I'd like to have a copperhead some day and I don't want any more legislation or for that matter a total ban on them because of people like you who can't act responsibly and handle a hot correctly.

Right now I'm babysitting 4 eastern diamondback rattlesnakes, a timber rattlesnake and a dusky pigmy rattlesnake for a friend who is having a house built. The people he's staying with won't let him keep his snakes at their house. I also have all his nonvenomous snakes too which I care for.
(In another forum and on a chat I said these snakes were WDBs but I got it wrong and after talking to my friend he corrected me, they're EDBs)

He comes over and tends to his venomous snakes, I don't open the cages for any reason. That being said, when he comes over to feed, clean, etc. I have only seen him tail a 5 1/2 footer with the hook just past the snake's head once. The head was nowhere near his body. Everything is done with tongs, hooks and cages with walls that slide in and out. (Snake on one half of cage, wall slid in, empty part of cage cleaned, wall removed, snake coerced into other side of cage, wall slid in and other side of cage cleaned.) He has neat caging that he built for these snakes so he doesn't have to handle them very much.

He handles these snakes responsibly and I'm learning a lot from him.

I hope that your venomous training goes well. I hope that the person training you can explain to you why freehandling a baby cottonmouth in the manner you did was not a good idea. Obviously the people on this forum are getting nowhere with you.

listen . you really wanna start name calling ? is that what you want ? cant possibly prove a point ( which others have been able to without name callign ) this isnt the hell board if all your gonna do is hurl insults i suggest you shut the **** up . and as for being a moron . well i dont suppose that you actually know the meaning of the word , a moron is a person with an intelligence quotient between 50-75 . such a person would not be able to read let alone type . as for you that are so quickto associate typing skills with intelligence . get a clue any 10 year old can use spell checker . but i choose not to . my spellign is fine , my typing sucks and alwasy has , and i could really care less because i get my point across .

and before i have one more person accuse me of being detrimental to the hooby . show proof or shut up . show proof how i have negative;y affected anyone . and you being offended by the picture isnt negatively affecting the hobby so dont even waste your time on that argument . :scatter:

reread ...
.im not a breeder or a seller that has a setup already made for pictures im merely a guy that catches and raises snakes .

the [picture wasnt taken where the snake is now . i never claimed it was . in fact i openly stated that I dont have the set up for takign pictures . the date ont he picture is in november .thats when i moved the snake out of my home into its current location . since then i have stopped by to see the snake jsut to make sure shes still healthy and fed . i havent handled her . as you stated and i agree with , it would be a violation of store policy , insurance , and a few other levels as well . i have no desire to get them into trouble , or have to move my snake again . heck , if i counst have found somewhere to board her i would have donated her .im proud of how healthy and big she's growing and would like to be able to continue to watch her grow but right now i cant do that and accomplish my goals.. i had originally placed her as soon as i started gettign a responses regardign training . unfortunatly my first contacts didnt pan out . one didnt actually want to train me , but offered to forge the documents for $1500 . i neither have the money no would i do this is if did .the second was willing to offer training but was too far away .i want to do it right and legally and i have no problem putting the time in and learning from those with more experience than i . even if its not more experience it might be a more structured . If it came down to it id much rather donate the snake than have to give up training .but now i have found someone thats not going to charge me and is willing to tech me so im going for it . :scatter:

to all of you that seem so ardently on accusing me of dammaging the hooby . me , who has never tried to lie steal or cheat anyone on this board . every single day i see posts on this board about "reputable" dealers adn breeders ripping peopl off , sellign bad animals , lying about the animals their selling , refusing to answer questions about this animals and so on . with all that crap going on you wana stand ther and tell ME that IM ruining the hobby . me . a guy that doesn't sell any animals . has never tried to rip anyone off, nor have i ever been bitten or caused anyone else to be bitten . ive never encouraged others to own venemous snakes ,but i have encouraged others to own the more docile snakes . all i did was share a picture . i never advised anyone to free handle snakes . i never even said that it was smart or right .in fact i have never denied that it isnt . i have seen people defend a dealer that has repetedly done bad deals and yet you think that IM ruining the hobby ? i think your perspectives are way screwed up .and to the guy that posted that

It is great that you wanted to show everyone your snake but it is nothing unusual..... Infact most neonate cottons look exactly like that

um no the florida cottonmouth is different than the common eastern cottonmouth . and even if it looked like every other one , its still a very pretty snake and i wanted to share it . i can see now that i was wasting my time .