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Albino Ball Python Died!!
The reason I’m posting this here is because I’m not 100% sure what direction this post is going to take and while I could see it taking a turn that may warrant it’s placement here that may not be the case after the facts are in. My basic objective of this post is to find out if the situation I’m about to outline is an isolated occurrence or if it has happened to others as well. If in fact this is an isolated occurrence then I feel it should be handled in a totally different non-public manner, however if others have had the same thing or something similar happen then I feel it should be publicly addressed. Below is the outline of events:
8/02 My partner purchased an Albino ball python at the Daytona Show. This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention. 8/05 The animal was place in my care, was feeding fair and in good physical condition. Over the next six weeks this snake fed five times with no troubles and seemed very healthy. 10/02 The animal was fed and two days later ended up regurgitating her meal between nine and eleven pm. Less then twelve hours later the animal was dead. At this point, within 6 hours of her death she was placed in the refrigerator as it was a Sunday and nothing could be done until the following day. She was then taken to the UofA where a necropsy was done. I will post that report within the next few days however it was found that the cause of death was chronic Gout. Keep in mind that was the only health issue, there were no protozoa found of any kind. Upon further research I’ve found that this can be either genetic or something caused by an extended period of dehydration. Per the breeder this animal was born in August and based on this information there is no possible way the time frame of two months would have allowed the animal to be dehydrated for a long enough period of time that it’s uric acid or uric salt levels could have reached a point to cause it’s death from gout as opposed to dehydration. With that in mind the conclusion is that this overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect. Now this is information that I’ve sat on for some time only because I felt that it’s an extremely serious matter and I understand fully the implications of the above information. However, upon speaking with another breeder we had been talking about our ball pythons. I mentioned that I had suffered the loss and was shocked, as I hadn’t had an animal unexpectedly die in a very long time. He proceeded to tell me about a ball python he purchased from the same breeder that had died and he too was shocked, as he hadn’t lost a snake in a very long time either. This information got me thinking that there may be others that have suffered the same loss and would leave one of only a few options. 1) It’s an odd occurrence however nothing more then chance. 2) There happened to be a birth defect that caused the isolated issues in these two animals. 3) There is a genetic issue that needs to be addressed. The other breeder opted not to look further into the cause of death due to the cost of the animal and the cost of the necropsy. For myself, I produced over 500 eggs this year and to the best of my knowledge not on of those babies has died. Because of this I felt it odd that this breeder has had two well feeding snakes (As hardy as ball pythons) just up and die over the course of a couple of days without any warning. If you’ve had a snake die in a similar manner/situation I would very much like to hear about it. As I said this post is meant to bring out the facts and go from there if there is in fact anything else that needs to be addressed. If there isn’t I would like to see this moved to another forum or deleted. Until that time I will keep the name of this breeder to myself, as I don’t feel there is enough information to conclude anything and I’m not sure if anything other then the person’s willingness to address this issue has come into question. I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations. I’m doing nothing more then looking for facts and have done my best to state facts as opposed to what I think. In the cases I have stated what my thoughts were I’ve tried to look at them with an open mind and think about the options as opposed to what I think. I’m also not sure what if anything is due to me, as the animal did not die of a car issue but a genetic one. I don’t have any issue with loosing the money I have. I do however have an issue with getting such a high dollar snake so quickly out of the egg and with the breeders seeming unwillingness to work with me. I also have an issue with other people buying animals the may be dying from the same thing if in fact that turns out to be a valid concern I will post a photo of the snake taken less then 5 days before it’s death. For reference the piece of wood next to the snake is 5.5 inches long. The reason for this photo is two fold. I think it shows the state of the snake and may also help people who may have had the same thing happen decide if it looks to be from the same line as this albino is fairly distinct looking. Thanks you for taking the time to read this, Adam Block <IMG SRC="http://www.angelfire.com/nv/impactreptiles/albball3.jpg" BORDER="0" ALIGN="center" WIDTH="556" HEIGHT="445"> |
Rob
Sorry for the loss of a beautiful young snake. I wanted to contribute some other onfo about gout. First the dehydration thought, in a young snake, it has been found that it does not take extended periods of time without fluid, the combination of stress and lack for hydration over a few days can cause gout to develop, not be noticed and the animal die within a few months, even if well cared for during those few months. Many of the earlier imported pythons from New Guinea and Indonesia died within two months of arrival, although they were very well cared for after arrival. Pathology showed they died of gout that was caused due to lack of hydration during shipping. This happened many times over, so the time factor for yours expiring could have been something that happened prior to you receiving her. Also, inbreeding has resulted in many reptiles being unable to clear the uric acids from their blood, and this would affect most the reptiles in the same clutches. Another factor that can cause it is too low temperature causing the initial build up, even if kept at correct temperature later, the reptile can and many did die weeks later from experiencing it at a young age as the damage was already done. I seriously doubt it is anything you did, the time factor of death between 6-8 weeks after you got it from gout would indicate it was a problem of too young a snake being exposed to stress and most likely lack of hydration/proper temps during the trip to and at the show. Also since it was an albino there is a good chance there was inbreeding along its genetic line that could have been a contributing factor. Trying to locate others that may have purchased snakes from the same clutch or even breeder could tell you if they had ball python die under like circumstances, but unless you knew the conditions or time factor in the arrival at the show, it would very hard to tell if genetic or enviromental. Reptiles that are dehydrated can bounce right back and appear fine within hours, but you can not tell the internal, slow lurking damage that may appear weeks later it caused. You may have some cause with the breeder if your Vet or the lab that did the pathology can state their est time factor as to the onset of the problem. |
Cheri, that was an excellent post and helped educate me to some extent as what the cause of death may have been.
What is very hard to deal with is the fact that I've been keeping snakes for 23 years and have a good understanding of their care needs. This holds just as true in all the snakes I keep but even more so in a snake that just cost $2500. Looking over the time frame I hadn't even thought about the fact that the snake was born and within 5-7 days was transported cross Country to Daytona and then of course kept at the show in less then perfect conditions. I would also assume through the trip and well at the show the snake was kept without water. Do you feel the snake may have been taken there and sold at too young of an age? Adam Block |
This is interesting in it's own right.
How many people provide water for their animals over a show weekend? I found that my hatchling corn snakes were showing signs of distress in two days being without water. And I provided water on the way to the show and then on the way back home. I would keep water dishes in the deli cups for the trip to the show, remove them on Saturday morning, then replace them at breakdown on Sunday evening. After seeing signs of minor dehydration distress in them by late Sunday afternoon, I now keep water dishes in the deli cups with the animals until they are sold at the show. Let's look at the time frame we have to deal with. We begin packing up for the Daytona Beach show on Wednesday and finish up late on Thursday. Friday we are driving to the show for setup. The show runs thru Saturday and Sunday, and we leave immediately after the show to come on back home. We are only 4.5 hours from Daytona Beach, but even so, if we did not provide drinking water for the baby snakes, the first ones packed up would be without water from Wednesday until, at the earliest, late Sunday night. More likely it would be early Monday before we would get around to putting them up and offering them a drink. So that could be as long as 5 days without a drink in a worst case scenario. What is this time frame like for someone coming from a much longer distance? Can 5+ days without water cause this sort of problem for a baby ball python? And I guess what this thread is heading towards: If such is the case, is the seller negligent in selling an animal subjected to this stress and are they liable for the lethal results? |
price
Your partner bought a $2500 snake and didn't even ask when it was born? Did the person you bought the snake from breed it? What's there take on the situation?
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Now Adam.... Come on, man.... at least, let's be fair??.... Why is it, that when ANYTHING goes wrong, TWO MONTHS down the road, it ALWAYS becomes the dealer's fault???.... How do YOU know that his babies weren't given water while at the show??.... From what I understand, even the breeder only had the snake for about a week???.... YOU had it for TWO MONTHS!!.... If I had a snake worth $2500, you're damned right I'd have it hydrated!.... This is SO unfair to the breeder of this unfortunate animal (or two).... but to insinuate that he has some sort of plague inherent in his "line", is totally uncalled for!.... All you know is that the snake died from gout (and that's if the vet is correct!, all I know is that I've seen a lot more animals die while in the vet's care, than in the breeder's)....
Now, if this all pans out to be true, that (somehow) you can actually PROVE that there is a defect in his line.... then, yes, he's probably going to owe a lot of people a lot of money.... but, in the meantime.... don't even HINT that he has a problem.... you should have put this on the GBD, and just asked a simple medical question concerning gout and if it could be related to ANY breeder.... remember.... YOU had that snake for two months, he had it for a week.... you want to calculate the odds of who's at fault here?? ....Neil |
The snake was produced by the person it was purchased from. The reason that it's date of birth didn't come into play was because other animals were purchased at the same time and those dates were of higher concern then the albino ball. He also gave me the impression that he hadn't had any other Albinos at the time of the show and to some extentled me to believe he rushed them there so he would have some to offer.
My post is only there to show facts as I see them and as they happend. I place no fault in that post and I ask for nothing other then peoples thoughts on the topic at hand. I'm asking a question and nothing more. For that matter I'm keeping all the personal emotion I have in this issue out of the thread as best I can as I don't feel it has anything to do with the topic. Where I have stated my thoughts I've laid them out in a maner of options and not one choice. To answer your question Chad, the breeder is basicly unwilling to do a thing about the matter. He staits he knows his animals and it's not possible that it died from anything due to his care, a birth defect or genetic issue. He also refuses to believe the animal would have died no matter who's care it was in. There are people out there smarter then myself with more information on how Gout effects reptiles. If you have input please feel free to contribute as I'm not in any way the authority on the matter. Adam Block |
Adam, a question about the animals that produced your baby...was it an albXalb?...outcrossed hets?...just wondering; with the price of albino balls it would seem people may be breeding any het babies either to each other or back to the parents, concentrating any suspected bad traits right on down the line, instead of taking time to diversify the line thru outcrossing, altho if (big if) this particular line of albino did have some genetic "flaws" outbreeding really wouldn't help...definitely no expert on genetics or ball python morphs, just curious....Sorry to hear about it, man...chris
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Well, Adam.... OK.... Is Gout contageous??.... Could your snake POSSIBLY have contracted it from other snakes at the show??
The way you worded your "question", there leaves NO DOUBT your objective.... a blind man could pick it right up.... There is NO WAY you can prove the dealer is at fault in this??.... IF this thread DOES start to get a lot of responses, you're, eventually, going to HAVE TO tell us his name??.... If not, this should have been in the GBD.... sorry, buddy.... but, I'm siding with the dealer on this one (so far).... ....Neil |
Unfortunately, we have to be self regulating in the age that young reptiles should be sold. IMO considering that ball python hatchling should be keep to miminal stress the first few months of life and a good eating pattern established, these being only days old, brought across country, then exposed to show conditions, I would have been surprised if they did thrive, even in the best of hands. It has nothing to do with the care they received after bought
In the 1980's many were brought in from Africa, Indonesia and other locations and suffered this exact problem. Understand, these were not wild caught young, the mothers were caught gravid and the eggs hatch in captivity, then shipped to the US. These were a few weeks old and in transit sometimes less than 2 days. They survived the trip fine, but the majority did die of gout within the first two months. They went to Universities and Zoo's, to people knowledgable of the care and maintainance of them. The best care in the world could not undo what already had been done to them. Fortunately, those places did have pathology done and it is documented that this was the cause of death, too young from many locations, to many locations and many lines. Its enviromental, even if a short term of time, certainly not the fault of the owners they went to. Rich, I think, someone transporting and selling hatchling that young, should be aware of this, it was very common knowledge to the industry that were bringing these in during the 80's when the big market for them developed. But also, since there are no regulations regarding the age reptiles can be sold at, we as owners need to avoid purchasing them that young, even if we are experienced in their care. There is no way around the fact that the stress of too young, transit, show setups(lack of proper heat, water and the additonal stress of handling and traffic) is not in their best interest and MANY pathology from past like situations, verified that the young died of gout due to those factors, in the same time period that Adam's did in with the same diagnoses. Is the dealer liable? Legal no, ethically... no doubt Should others be warned that a dealer/breeder sells young under these conditions or one you buy may have been under those conditions in the past and likely to have the same result? I sure would want to know before I spent $2500, I think anyone would. The dealer/breeder created the situation that caused the death and loss, at minimum he should be informed that this happened and the studies that back it so he can avoid it in the future and see what he has to say. If this was the cause, ones he brought back from the show would be suffering the same fate and he may be unaware that this is a documented problem, unaware that this is the cause since it happens several weeks AFTER the cause and to animals that seem to be thriving. I would be interested in knowing if these babies came from a well known breeder,as the ones I saw at the Daytona show were from breeders that are very knowledgable and most on their own sites advise against the sort of things this baby was exposed to in the packing, transite and selling at that young of age. Neil: Gout is not contagious, it is either genetic or damage caused by enviroment, does not show up physical immediately, usually taking several weeks to show physical signs and if left untreated is fatal. The probability that Adam did anything to cause this is almost zero in the time factor involved. |
Adam, Sorry for your loss. He was beautiful.
IMPO and just about every snake book I ever read, the breeder should have never allowed a neonate that young to be put through all that stress. Every keeper and especially breeders should know how delicate reptiles are in their first few months of there lives and how to care for them. Moving them across the country at a month old shows care for something else and not the health of the animal to me. I'm not sure anything can be done for your partner, he should have asked the age of the BP. But now maybe the seller will keep his neonates in his care for 2-3 months and make sure this won't happen again. I don't let my babies go until they are at least 2 months old and are eating defrosted rats consistently. I believe this will help them get over the stress of new living conditions and new owners until they feel comfortable to eat in someone else's care. Rob |
I have to disagree on age
Some animals age is a factor. But I feel that a young snake can be sold and thrive. If it was well taken care of. Also all babies are as only healthly as the mom was when she was bred.
I know that Rob knows this as he breed Veild and is you have eggs from an unhealthy female you will have a high mortality rate of babies. I have bought and sold out of the egg snakes and have had no problems as of yet. The first few days all is new for a baby snake and I believe that no one should tell me the age of my animals before I sell. I can see that is where a ban could start. Just my thoughts. Also I can see this should have been put in a differnt spot on the forum. |
Sorry to here about this Adam!
Gilbert Thompson |
Adam,
That really sucks about your python and I am sorry. I have had snakes die for no apparent reason, only to take them to the vet and have the vet tell me as much as I knew: nothing. I have heard of gout, and it sounds like what CheriS is saying makes sense. It may be something that if it is genetic and from that particular breeder's line, he may not believe your claims cause he honestly feels like his animals are 100% healthy and by no means is he trying to be shady, but simply doesn't believe it and may have had no bad luck with his parents. It is a hard thing to figure out, since your snake died months after getting it and it ate fine for you for a while. I am confused though. You stated that your friend bought the snake on 8/2 at the Daytona show and you received it on 8/5. You may have your dates mixed up as the Daytona show was on 8/17-8/18. So what I am wondering is when exactly was your python born? Billy |
oops! forgot my last name!
Billy Fraser |
Also with regards to dates....why did wait until now to bring this to out? If the animal(s) died in the beginning of October, why wait until January?
Just curious.... Jon |
ADAM
I can appreciate the loss, but this is the business we chose. If their were no guarantees for that extended period of time, the loss is yours to incurr. Animals in general are sold on a basis of being "outwordly " healthy. I can assume their was no misrepresentation of the animal, and it was picked up "sight seen". Once the sale has been consummated, the obligation becomes yours. The loss of any animal is unfortunate, and although you may have been in the business of breeding for a considerable period of time, can only provide you with a better opportunity of making wise choices, but even under the best of circumstances, the final responsibility is yours. JERRY TRESSER
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Thank you all for your kind words. Just to address a few of your questions right off the bat. With regard to the dates I laid out, I’d meant to outline the month/year and forgot that’s what I was doing with the 8/5 date. I was trying to convey the snake was in my care three days after her purchase and not that she was in my care on the 5th of August.
Regarding why I’ve waited as long as I have. I felt like many of you, that the buyer is responsible and if the animal dies it’s their loss. However, in speaking with the other breeder who had a ball python die under the same circumstances from the same breeder I felt there might be something else to this. After all, you have to admit loosing two snakes that you’ve produced is fairly odd over just a couple of month period. With that in mind I contacted the breeder to get their feelings in the matter and see if they were aware of this or what their thoughts were. The breeder was understandably very defensive in the matter but almost too much so. Going so far as to say they knew their animals and it was not possible. I felt this was odd and as we spoke I started seeing things that worried me in their story. 1) The breeder mentioned they have the most genetically diverse line of Albinos in the Country but within 15 minutes of that told me they knew all the Albino Balls they produced because they didn’t produce more then 15 of them. Explainable yes but very much so odd in my opinion. 2) The breeder also mentioned the timeframe of the animal’s birth regarding how well he remembered the snake in question. Something that was not asked however, what was asked is if the animals (bought a yearling het at the same time) were both in great shape and feeding well, this was answered with a yes. With that said I thought there might be more to this. If this were a $100 or even $1000 snake I wouldn’t have thought twice about the whole thing. I also think much of what you’re all saying would apply even more. However, given the dollar amount I think breeders of higher dollar snakes have a responsibility to not only their customers to give them well established animals and not fresh out of the eggs babies but to the snakes as well. John Romeo is a good example of this, I purchased a het Pied from him and as a 02 baby the snake came to me at 375 grams. Even today if I were to call him and say the animal died of the same things I’ve talked about he would do right on the situation, as would I. For that matter I purchased 1.2 pieds from a breeder and he went so far as to tell me if the male died on me he would lend me a loaner the first year asking nothing in return. I think the standard of customer service many higher dollar snake breeders show is far above and beyond what is expected or even needed. I guess what I’m getting at here is that I mentioned to the breeder that while he has nothing in his terms to cover this and I feel there is a fair amount of evidence to conclude the error may have been on his end that I would feel as if the deal was made right by replacing that Albino with a het Albino. I feel that puts 65% plus of the money loss on myself and is very fair to us both. I don’t want anything that isn’t right in this. Mainly I want to be sure somebody else doesn’t have this happen to them. Also, if the breeder has a total unwillingness to make anything in this situation right I want people to know this breeder is selling animals so young and if they die because of that is totally unwilling to accept any fault, not only will you be out the money but mainly the snakes are dying. Hope that clears some things up and thanks a lot for reading this, Adam Block |
well ADAM
i guess it boils down to a question of obligation Their are some sellers who seem to feel its in their best interest to obligate themselves well beyond the agreed sale, while others do not. In either scenerio, it does not make one any better than the other, nor is the dollar amount of any consequence. A $ 1,000 loss to someone is just as painful to a $ 100. loss to someone else, so the money does not enter the picture either. What you are left with is the "risk factor" and that no one can forsee. You purchased an expensive snake, and you had it for an extended period of time, and you lost it. These things happen, and its an unforseen loss. Its just regrettable that the loss was when the snake was in your posession. JERRY TRESSER
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Jerry, I want to be sure that I'm seeing what you're saying clearly. For this reason I'm going to phrase the same point differently.
What you're saying is that if somebody sells an animal. And say this snake has IBD (like gout incurable) and when you get the snake it looks to be in excellent health. You're saying that if it dies two months later because it was sold to you with IBD that the buyer is out the money and the seller has no accountability there? On the same accord you're also saying that if a snake is sold to you with some protozoa and needs to be taken to the vet that the buyer is 100% responsible for any costs in bringing the animal back to health? I'm only asking because from the looks of your statements you're telling people that under no circumstances would you refund a buyer their money or replace an animal after two months regardless of the snake’s cause of death. I’m only trying to be so clear as I don't think I know of many other breeders who would publicly admit this. I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else. I've also refunded a person their money two years after the fact on a snake that was sent as a male and turned out to be a female. The reason I purchased from this breeder is because of the value of the snake. I was assured that I was getting a healthy animal free of any troubles at the time of purchase. Because there is nothing to address the issue of health on their site I took those words that the animal was healthy at face value when in fact the animal was not healthy at the time of purchase. The underlying health problem at the time of purchase is what ultimately causes her death. Adam Block |
Adam
I think you should name the breeder of this very young sold snake, we can already see on this thread some to avoid that feel selling ones a few days old and the stress of a trip/show does not matter to them. For us that beleive this is dangerous to very young and that want to avoid buying anything from anyone that advocates that, this would be a service and help them avoid problems later on that the animals could have suffered unknown to us. Even if bought from their locations when the animals are older, we would have no assurance that they had not be exposed to the same situatiuon like transit across county and shows, under less than ideal circumstances PRIOR to us buying them. People can use their own judgment if they want to deal with someone who practices business like this and feel it is appropriate Like I said earlier, they can not be held legally responsible, but they can be held ethically responsible by others that feel differently if we know who they are. That makes this post a information post and proper for this board. That not saying they are at fault, you can not prove that, you are simply saying this person sold reptiles only a few days old under such circumstances and this baby died of gout which is known to take several weeks to become visable(many times too late) and can be caused by stress to too young reptiles, lack of proper temp/fluids and this is an option to avoid the same problem. This post also serves as an information source to breeders that were not aware that gout can and has develop several weeks later in stressed young snakes who go for even a few days without water and proper temperature. Making it a valuable post to them and their future hatchlings as it informs others of a possbile risk to avoid and they can take measure to assure that does not happen |
Adam,
I have been reading this entire thread and I have decided to post. First off, there is NO PROOF in this case that there is a genetic defect. Therefore there is no responsibility for the seller. The animal was outwardly healthy, and showed great health for the months you had the snake. It is a tragedy that the snake perished, but without any proof that there is in fact a genetic flaw, and that the seller/breeder knew about the flaw there is nothing that can be done. Some sellers will honor and give a replacement long after their guarantee is over but that it completely up to the seller/breeder and not the buyer. I can understand how you feel about the snake and the desire to want a replacement but like I said it is the sellers call and not the buyer, partner of the buyer, or a third party like in all of us here at the BOI. I myself have had situations that happened months down the road after making large purchases of animals (animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy) and I did not expect the seller to do anything about it. As far as the Gout situation, a baby ball Python can become dehydrated in a matter of 2 days if the animal is not drinking on its own. Was this snake witnessed drinking on its own all the time? I have seen baby Balls drink without problems for weeks and then all of a sudden decide they do not want to drink from a bowl and require daily misting to ensure they stay fully hydrated. I am not saying this is what happened with your animal but it could be a possibility. |
Rob.... I'm SO sorry, buddy.... but, I just CAN'T resist this one.... I just LOVE this line YOU wrote....
...animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy)... You mean.... they even perished AFTER the necropsy???? (ya think?).... lmao That was just perfect!... ROFLMAO But, to get on subject.... you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!.... As I've said from the beginning.... I'm going with the breeder on this one! OK.... Time to watch the BUCS KICK BUTT! (27-10, BUCS WIN!) ....Neil |
I have to agree with Rob on this one. He makes some great points. Did you witness the animal drinking daily in you care? Most probably not is the honest answer. I have a nice colony of higher end animals and I can honestly say that is my answer and I look in on them every night.
It is highly possible that animal was eating and simply to stressed to drink in your care and developed gout weeks after you got it home. That, in and of itself is not genetic and is not the original breeders fault. Seems kind of hard to pin point what the real cause of the problem was and who is at fault. The other point I wanted to say, is, when does the responsibility of the animal become the buyers and not the sellers? In this case, the breeder sold a very young animal in outwardly perfect health and the buyer accepted that fact when they purchased it. I know I give a 30 day no if's, ands or buts return policy. But much after that your on your own. To many things can happen such as this case that can't be linked to the original owner/breeder. You can't prove genetics, you can't prove it didn't have water in his care, you can't prove that it drank enough in your care to not develope gout. When do you feel it is your responsibility to properly care for and keep healthy the animal in your charge and accept full responsibility? When is the seller no longer to blame? Poor husbandry, lack of knowledge, inability to assess problems prior to them becoming fatal, any number of things that are not in the sellers control can ultimately lead to the death of any animal. Not that these are the cases here. But possible. I am not busting your chops or placing blame on anyone, but simply playing the devils advocate in this one. When is it no longer the sellers fault? Quote:
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You're all making some very valid points. However, not one of them applies to this situation. Please go to Google.com and do a search on gout in snakes. In doing so you will find the animal died due to a condition over a long period of time and it could not have played out in the 6 weeks the animal was in my care. What happened to my snake has happened 1000s of times over the past 10 years all in animals less then 2 months old.
To drive that point home, a local pet store bought 500 CH balls last year and based their price on a 50% loss. Each and every person that bought one and had it die within a couple months got a replacement snake. In the end 200 of the 500 died. Please before you comment again on this, look into gout and answer based on what you know and not what you think. I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal. If you think a little more about this. How many breeders when faced with having a clutch worth $15,000 would decline taking them to the show in favor of their health when faced with that amount of money? I can't answer that and don't say it applies here; I do feel however that many snakes are bred or sold when they shouldn't be based on money. As for the snakes drinking. I of course can't say it drank each and every day. I will however say I never saw the snake go more then 5 days without taking a dip in it's water dish. Adam Block |
Adam.... sorry, pal.... but, in this instance, you are way out of line.... YOU have NO CLUE how that animal got gout.... I don't care what ANY book says.... you might know what causes it, in MOST instances, BUT NOT THIS ONE!.... You have no right at all to blame the breeder for this one.... NONE!!.... Where is your PROOF??.... It just goes to prove my point, in the very beginning of this thread, as far as your MOTIVES were.... There is no way in hell that YOU will take ANY BLAME for this, will you??.... I'm sure there's absolutely NOTHING that you could have done for this to happen???.... Obviously.... it HAS TO BE THE DEALER.... right???.... WRONG!!.... You are coming up with the biggest load of crap to TRY and persuade YOURSELF.... you're certainly NOT persuading us.... You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... Caveat Emptor.... and you've been doing this for TWENTY YEARS???.... YOU should have known better!.... Don't, for one minute, blame the breeder for this.... why is YOURS the only one that died from that clutch??.... Crap happens.... sometimes you just have to live with it, and mark it off to experience.... I bet the next time, you're probably going to ask for a HEALTH guarantee of some sort.... which is all fine and good.... had you asked for one this time, you MIGHT not be in this situation.... of course, I STILL don't know ANY dealer or breeder who is going to guarantee the health of their animals for 2 MONTHS???.... Do you??
....Neil |
OK Adam, I did as you suggested and came with this;
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Based on the article I posted there are two distinct possibilities on this case. 1) the seller did something wrong or 2) the buyer did something wrong The seller is in the postion that the animal was alive, thriving, and outwardly healthy at the time of the transaction. So was the buyer or I hope he wouldnt have bought it. The Buyer is out money 2 months later and looking for compensation. But again, when is it no longer the sellers fault? 1 week, 1 month, 2 months, 5 years, when does the sellers responsibility end? |
Wait Neil!!! It's only half time and Tampa Bay has a history of losing it in the last quarter :P But I think this time they may pull it off.. keeping finger crossed!
LOL your also a bit excited and its showing on your post. I don't think Adam started this thread for any reason other than trying to find info if anyone else had the same problems with like pythons from the Daytona show or what MAY have contributed to it. He's not named the breeder, or made it a bad guy post, he was seeking information or inquiring, which I understand is allowed on this board, not just complaints or applauds of breeders. Did I miss where this was the only one in the clutch that died? Has the dealer stated that? I agree, its a Caveat Emptor situation and there is no recourse, but to inform the seller this happen, what happens after that is totally within his hands and the law is on his side in it. BUT... even without naming the breeders, this post was informative and I think appropriate for BOI. People reading it are learning of a common problem in young pythons and how to avoid it. Hopefully also being leery in the future to buy snakes under a certain age and avoid those dealers that sell them without that consideration. Breeders can see potential problems with transport and shows and take actions to avoid them. As far as Adam's contributon to the demise of the baby python in his care, although possible, very unlikely as it takes several weeks for damage to show up in their system and die from it. I am not sure this thread was looking to blame anyone, but to inquire and inform and I think it has done both. |
Neil - I think you are getting a bit carried away. This is a discussion, so stop trying to turn it into an argument. Your posts are a perfect example of what I have been hearing scares off some people about posting on the BOI. And I want it to cease, NOW.
I believe Adam's posts have been logically presented and he has done an admirable job of keeping emotions out of his postings. Something I think you would do well to take notes on. IMHO. So make your factual statements as well as opinions, but leave the emotion and flames on your side of the keyboard, please. |
OK.... Rich....
....Neil |
Neil, because you have a lack of regard for the posting of other and showing no signs of reading them I will not respond to your statements as they have no foundation in what I've laid out or said not to mention they are way off base on my motive. If you would like to take the time to read my posts again and respond to my statements with out your assumptions I would be happy to address your questions or issues. Until that time I thank you for your responses however you are very obviously missing something major. I will lay those points out for a few of your comments so as to keep you from scratching your head.
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[quote]You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... /[quote] Again you must have missed the following: This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention. Quote:
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Neil, your posts are always very well put together but being a big dealer and considering the volume of snakes you sell this post may hit a little too close to home for you to look at it objectively. You have made it very clear that you are not reading anything I post only responding with the same thing each time. We have heard from you and your points and feelings on this are clear. However I ask that if you’re not willing to take the time to read the posts then please stop responding to this thread. I’m trying very hard to have more respect for Rich and his goals with this site and there is no way I’m going to let this turn into a name calling session. If I can’t keep my emotion out of a post then I will not make it from now on. Some of your quotes are also very contradicting to what you’re saying here. I will point out the following just to see where it is that you do stand on this however I have a feeling this post will in large be ignored by you. The first two go against what you’re saying about who is in question. There is doubt here for sure and I’m willing to accept 65% of that. The rest I believe falls on the breeder. Here are those quotes: Quote:
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With the very last quote what I want to know is? Of the 35 animals listed above, 25 of them coming into direct question regarding this exact issue. How many have died and are you also saying that because you’ve warned them they take the loss and you would be totally unwilling to refund or replace any of those dead animals? That to me looks very bad and is what you’ve implied so far. Adam Block |
Here are a few excerps I have found on a few pages on
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Adam,
I hope you continue on your quest for information. I have been keeping up with this post and find it very informative. As someone who is possibly in the near future going to get a snake, I would not hesitate talking with and buying one from you. Just by your posts you seem knowledgable and willing to learn and above all a business man who cares not only for the snakes he sells but the customer as well. Rozann Lamont |
Rozann, thank you very much! Just don't have me ship you any dry goods (I've now stopped selling them). I'm such a slow shipper when the P.O. is involved that it's become almost a joke.
Adam Block |
I usually would never want to get into a discussion on the BOI since I am a total reptile novice with only a year of keeping under my belt. But the point that comes to my mind is that if the snake was healthy enough in appearance for your friend to purchase, and then did seemingly well for two months, then how could the breeder possibly know that he was not selling a healthy snake? (IF indeed the snake developed gout in the breeder's care.) Of course he couldn't unless there had been a history of it in his colony.
You said, "I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal." How do you know? The animal MUST have been outwardly healthy if your friend laid down $2500 for it. Did the friend who purchased the snake give it water on the way BACK from the show? How do you know it didn't contract gout at that point? This thread is a great heads-up, but I feel that you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was genetic or the breeder's fault. That fact another of the same breeder's snakes died this way may be a simple coincidence. Just beacuse two brothers grow up to be alcoholics, it doesn't necessarily mean they carry the gene that predisposes them to become a drunk. Very sorry about your loss Janie |
Adam,
Ok I have a few questions for you. First you say your reason for posting was to decide which way to go with this situation. Well the way to go seems clear to me. It is not the Breeders responsibilty and the consensus is just that. Second, you have been stating that you offer a 6 month guarantee on your animals right? Quote:
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Another thing. What is this charging extra to guarantee live arrival? (Direct from your web page) Quote:
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Rob, what you failed to mention in the quotes you supplied is that you were talking about secondary gout. Defiend as:
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What does apply from that same link is this: Quote:
I think this quote from that link also applies: Quote:
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I believe the point that everyone seems to be missing is that it is not a good practice (for the snakes) to sell right out of the egg. If you ask me, the gout isn't so much the issue here, as much as the selling of the snake mere days after it hatched. How many of you are willing to ship a snake that is ten days old? This may not be the best comparison, but I think it is fairly accurate to describe the stress of being taken to a show. No, he cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the breeder's fault, but does that mean that it can't be the breeder's fault? How many of you feel alright about selling a two week old snake? I'm not a snake person, but I don't sell my dragons until they are six weeks old or six inches long, whichever comes last. IMO, there is enough of an indication that the breeder is at fault that if it were me, I would replace the snake.
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Good point Rob. I don't put a time frame on that in all honesty. I take it on a case by case and for a very long time it was six. That was my slip as I must have changed that last time I updated that section. Either way that isn't set in stone and I would bake my snakes and stand behind them for live depending on the situation.
As for the guarantee of live arrival. That is something I do offer however it is not something that FedEx offers and the quote you posted is addressing shipping, the snake I'm talking about was bought at the show and wasn't shipped. My charge on that is insurance and that idea came from the man himself, Rich Z. Agree with me or not has nothing to do with it. I would have rather not had any of these responces as this post was about finding information and has gotten off topic. This breeder is far too hard headed to replace the snake and from what I hear would cut his arm off long before he would say he may have done somehting wrong. Be that the case or not I'm looking for infomation and not a debate as the dollar amount of the snake is fairly small and was one of the least costly snakes bought over the past few months. It's the point and the breeder actions not the cost in this case. Adam Block |
Primary and Secondary in this case are not designations made because of the likelihood of their occurring but rather the source of the difficulty...
In a very small amount of research on the subject, combined with a few of the posts other have made here, it seems as if Secondary gout is a far more common condition than anything with a genetic basis... I have also found wildly varying lengths of time listed for the duration it takes for secondary gout to become lethal if untreated, Adam had the snake for a significant enough period of time that the condition could have easily evolved while it was in his care... This is one of those situations where it's an impossibility to determine the exact cause of the condition and as such, blame can not be placed on any of the parties involved. Since it's apparently well outside of the guarantee period, this leaves the buyer S.O.L. in this instance, especially when statistically, it seems more likely that the condition developed after the animal had been purchased. The request for 35% of the snake's value in trade or as a refund is absurd Adam, there's no proof that they created any condition which led to the animal's demise- but it had been in your care for a fairly respectable period of time when it occurred, guess who a court would side with. And Neil... you were way off, 48-21 was a much nastier beating than you predicted. |
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