That makes more sense said that way, thank you, Tammy. I understand where you were coming from.

Denise...that is the million dollar question..where DO we go from here? I point back to Dr. Jacobsen saying that we need to be testing, be honest, and do everything we ALL can to establish colonies of negative dragons. We cannot ignore this, because it is not going to just go away. I just wish we could figure out a way that we can all work together!

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I've spent several hours reading your posts. I had a necropsy done on Etouffee when she died last month. I spoke with the vet at Texas A&M College of Vet Medicine today and told her that my vet told me that Adenovirus was negative, but I do not see those words in the necropsy report. She told me that she did the advanced studies herself and she was positive that there were no signs of adenovirus in any of the organ tissue samples that were examined. She is amending her conclusion on the report to state that.

We do know conclusively what caused Etouffee's death, egg stasis and aspiration pneumonia. The lab did not find any signs of Adenovirus. They did not run DNA testing. So what can we conclude from this? She was a negative dragon? I spent a ton of money and we still don't know because they could have missed the Adenovirus on the advanced studies? Do I know anything more than she is dead and I have a clutch of eggs that might be infected?

What an insidious disease.

I with you all the way on that sentiment. At this point, I think there are two very different issues. The first is of course to attempt to build negative colonies, but that is going to take long term testing and we still have a lot of learning to do to figure out just how to go about that.
The second is to support and create an environment to support people that have AV positive Beardies with health problems. No one should be fearful of coming forward with test results, asking questions or asking for help. There is a lot of knowledge in this community, and some of it should be focused toward helping people who through no fault of their own are dealing with big issues. I'm absolutely amazed by a lot of the email I've seen in the last 10 days or so, there are some amazingly committed people that really want to help find answers, and I'd rather be a part of the solution for them instead of part of the problem.
All the fighting isn't going to solve anything, and I don't think any of us have the answers we'd like to have right now. I just want to find a way to move forward.

Hi Angie,
I'm not sure you can really conclude anything regarding Adenovirus, but I'm very sorry for your loss.
There are some options for you with the babies once they hatch. You can clutch test the babies via fecal EM fairly inexpensively or you can have your vet contact Dr. Jacobson regarding clutch testing via PCR. In the end, its just a preliminary result though. I wish someone could give you a better answer than that.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Here's hoping for a bunch of healthy, thriving babies.

Hi Denise,

Thanks for the condolences.

I have frozen poop in the freezer waiting to put it in the tubes to send to Illinois for EM testing from my 3 remaining adults. I had thought about sending fecals from the babies when they hatch to test them. I thought that I could get results from the EM and it would tell me if the 3 adults were positive or not, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I had hoped to be able to tell anyone that wanted to get a baby that I had them tested for Adeno and they were negative but after reading all the research, I don't think you can ever say that with what is known about Adeno at this point.

It's all very discouraging. After reading everything I'm not sure any of it would be conclusive - maybe we'd have negatives this time, but is there even enough data to recommend the frequency and duration of follow up EM tests? How many negatives before they really are negative? From what I can tell by reading everything I can find, no one knows the answer.

I would like to say that you guys are really making people think and that's always a good way to start trying to make a difference. Thanks for that.

I have a lot of concerns about the EM testing, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. At this point, we know that there is even an unknown margin of error with PCR, that it takes repeated tests to know anything, and even that is not definite, its just a strong suggestion of true negative results.
It's all very frustrating.
Hopefully this time we'll manage to keep the conversation going because that's how we'll all find answers.
Good luck!

Hello
 

Hello,

Excellent posts, Denise, by the way.
I agree, it is all very discouraging. However, at least there has been some progress that has come out of this. I think this time, it is not going to go away because people like us wont let it fade into the background. WE ALL want what is best for our dragons, & for their health to be top priority over anything.
What you can say though, Mad4You2, is that YOU are testing, & you are making an effort in this fight against the virus. You can do the best you can & get them tested. No, you cannot make a guarantee, but, being an honest person, you can disclose your test results, & I think at this point, that is all any breeder can do. As long as you are honest, & are making the effort, that is what counts.
Obviously, the more negative tests that come back, the better.
This is what this discussion is for, to help out & come to terms about everything, just in general as to where the direction of things should go. The bearded dragon colonies have suffered greatly because of dishonesty. It is time that there are some changes made, & for the good.

Tracie

Tammy, were you able to find out any hard numbers from them ?

Jean,
Not yet

I emailed Dr. Jacobson and asked the following questons:

How many dragons were tested? From how many colonies? How many were suspected of having adenovirus and were showing some type of symptoms? How many were otherwise healthy and the owner was testing to see if they carried the virus? What part of the U.S. were the dragons from? Where were the breeders located that they originated from? Was it more prevalent in some areas of the country? What is the testing time period?

He emailed back and said I presented a number of very good questions but it is beyond their ability to provide answers to all of them. He also said many people provide samples without giving them detailed background on their animals.

I was really hoping to get some solid numbers that would support the conclusions in their paper. I do not doubt that this is wide spread. I am just hoping that as more time passes, we will continue to discuss this and more information will be discovered.

Dr. Jacobson also said that he intends to do some research on whether or not the virus is transmitted through the egg. I am looking forward to seeing what he finds out.