What do you feel is fair to charge
 

Last year had a friend ask me to care for a few animals out of their collection. Was supposed to be 20-25 animals . I agreed they were going through major life issues and they said breed them split the clutch. We go to pick these up and they are having big issues and look at me tell me to take the whole collection and do this with as they are going to die otherwise. Me and my girlfriend didn't really want to but many of these snakes had no water etc bad space. We had the extra room so we did it to help the friend and the snake. Otherwise we were worried they all would die. "they are separated from our collection completely. Well instead of 20-25 it was 140 adults plus some hold backs etc.
Most were in bad shape dehydrated and underfed . "Some died within the first couple weeks " We have held these taking care of them feeding cleaning etc for 8 months . Most are just now back to what I consider healthy weights. Not even breeder ready weights .
Now they decided they need money and are planning to sell all the animals .
In this 8 months I have been buying or breeding all the rodents and bedding etc. No money has been given for the care of these animals .
What do you think I should charge them for this . As I have spent Thousands out of pocket to nurse their animals back to health and they act like I shouldn't get anything.One in common friend said to pull out a few animals and say these are payment etc.Another feels I should invoice them for rodents,bedding.

What do you all feel would be the right thing to do?

What do you have in writing, even if via text?

What kind of snakes?

Did any have to be taken to the vet?

All through text. As I consider them a friend almost family. All Ball python's. Main cost is feeders . when adding that many feeders per month.
Time spent is just that time spent and lost .

Have you asked your friend what he would think is fair for the effort and expenses you put into his animals? If you cannot keep the animals until you are able to breed them and produce babies to split the income off of, then where does that leave you if you return the animals to him now so he can sell them off?

Certainly invoices of direct expenses you made in his behalf would help to support your argument of being due some compensation. And if you have the text messages, make sure you retain them so any statements made can be brought forth if needed.

In your shoes I hope for the best, but plan for the worst. I wouldn't turn over any animals until you had this matter resolved to what YOU are willing to accept as being fair. You are holding all the cards by having the animals in your possession. But there is also the opportunity for things to get ugly real fast.

As a likely outcome, are you prepared to lose this friend as a friend? Chances are, that is what is going to happen. These sorts of things seem to rarely end well for both parties. Someone is going to come away unhappy about it.

IMHO.

IMHO with the completely about face, you were taken for a ride by your so called 'friends' from the get go. While they may indeed have been facing difficulties, there is no universe where a friend would not offer their friend something for this mountain of work that you put in.
You need to be paid for your time and expenses. Present them with a bill for $6,000 or whatever you feel the time and expenditures come to. Expect a lot of noise from them, maybe some publicity, even threats of legal action.

A LOT hinges on any sort of agreement that was made. Any piece of writing. Any verbal agreement made when witnesses were present. If it is a bailment and that is what it sounds like it is, the original agreement allegedly did offer you compensation as you are saying here, that you were offered a divide of any clutches. I think that this offer for compensation could be raised in court (if it goes that far) as an implication that some payment was indeed planned. That being the case, negotiating a fair amount for your bill with written backups of rodent.bedding costs and an estimate of your time should be persuasive.
I tossed out $6,000 but to me that is a lowball guess. You were caring for 140+ ball pythons . I've owned ball pythons and they are heavy bodied snakes with poops to match, you have to clean all that up, with fresh water in the water bowls, that takes a lot of time.

Conservatively, IMO you're due at least $9000 just for snake food. Here's how I arrived at that number:

You brought home 140 adult ball pythons, all underweight due to neglect. While ball pythons are known for being picky eaters, if you've ever rehabilitated an underweight neglected one then you know that they will eat every chance they get.

So, I figured they'd be eating a small rat every week, and the average price for frozen small rats online is $2 per rat. I did not include shipping in that cost.

You also did not say how many holdback snakes so I did not include them in this calculation.

For the feeding cost, you had 140 adult ball pythons at $2 per snake per week = $1120 per month. Multiply that times 8 months and you're up to $8960 just in feeders, and while you didn't have to buy the feeders because you raised them, you could have sold them to other snake owners.

Hopefully you have feeding logs so you can calculate just how many feeders your friend's snakes ate over the eight months.

You also have costs for snake substrate, electricity to run the heat tape in the racks, water (both for drinking and cleaning), cleansers and disinfectants, etc. For one or two snakes it's not a big deal, but for 140+ it adds up.

That doesn't even include what you think your time is worth.

I think Melinda's breakdown of costs was spot on.
The reason I am asking about what was written or said at the time the critters were picked up is the quote below sort of leads me to believe that the unexpected 120 (over and above the 20 you were expecting) which the owners expected to die if you did not take them, might be characterized as a gift rather than a bailment and as such would not need to be returned at all because the previous owners would have no rights to them.

Looked at records and yes even going low end saying all eating small rats and using wholesale price on Small rats here at 1.50 each I am well over the 6K out of pocket in feeders.
The crazy thing is late last night after telling them I have spent over that much only response was well we both figured they would give us eggs . Here is a list of prices I want for them and I am going to try sell them to another local guy when are you available for him to come look at them .

I am sending a reply now that I will not be middle man in a sell where I am not compensated for my time and the feed/care I have given your animals. As you said yes I expected to be getting payment through breeding these now that you want cash right now I am not expected to just lose the $XXXX amount in care .

Wow that's ballsy. While I don't share the sentiment I know many keepers absolutely do not permit buyers to come to their homes to view/purchase animals; that activity is always done off-site. There are a variety of reasons, including biosecurity (not spreading diseases between collections), personal security (not having just anyone come over and case their home), etc.

On top of that you're supposed to schedule times the buyer can come over and look at the snakes, essentially turning you into their consignor, and with no additional compensation?

I have kept snakes for friends who find themselves in a bad place, but always a handful not racks full, and they would cover feeder cost or stop by and help with cleaning my full collection (which includes retics and burms so it's a big messy job). None of them ever just dropped the snakes on me and disappeared for eight months.

If you *want* to keep some that you feel would be fair as payment, have you offered that as an option?
They you can give him the rest back and he can set it up with the buyer.
No way would I be a middle man and let someone else into my home.
This sounds sketchy.

Richard the next logical step is the person showing up to take possession. Do not let that happen. If he threatens law enforcement tell him this is a civil matter. I suggest you get a detailed invoice sent to him certified mail signature required for the amount that you feel is adequate. Break down materials, time, etc. and realize that what you are sending will show up elsewhere, so take a little time with clarity and detail. I would also get your ducks in a row to put this entire issue on the BOI should he insist that you are not going to receive compensation.

Great guy! So when people come to your place to buy the snakes, and they have a problem, who are they going to call and expect restitution (if any) from?

It appears to me that you really don't have a whole lot to lose by losing this guy's friendship.

Yes im in process of getting full information into certified letter. As today i texted its find i will cut all my losses. I am done when are you free to take your animals all back so you can sale them.

Their response has been to block me on all social media and my phone calls are blocked also. As i get number unable to be reached.
I will send the letter out monday. I am at a lost as to what else to do. As i just didnt want the headache and cost til they sell just done.

According to Florida law:

"These Florida laws concern liens for the care and maintenance of animals. The first section declares that the liens mentioned in the chapter include the described personal property under the circumstances mentioned in each section. Section 713.65 then describes that a lien exists in favor of all persons for the "feeding or caring for the horse or other animal of another, including all keepers of livery, sale or feed or feed stables, for feeding or taking care of any horse or other animal put in their charge; upon such horse or other animal." Based on the broad language of "other animal," a lien exists for the care and feeding of all owned animals."

In short, because you have been taking care of the feed and housing of these animals for months, Florida law places a lien on those animals that must be paid. More specifically:

"In favor of any veterinarian who renders professional services to an animal at the request of the owner of the animal, the owner's agent, or a bailee, lessee, or custodian of the animal, for the unpaid portion of the fees for such professional services, upon the animal to which such services were rendered. Such lien shall remain valid and enforceable for a period of 1 year from the date the professional services were rendered, and such lien is to be enforced in the manner provided for the enforcement of other liens on personal property in this state."

The law gives you the ability to sue even if the law doesn't give you ownership of the animals outright. Animal abandonment laws are a little odd in Florida, but this law gives you an angle to get your money back. If they still play hardball, go to civil court.

Link: https://www.animallaw.info/statute/f...enance-animals

Oh, one more thing. If you do go to court, make sure you use the high-end estimate for your costs, which include your personal time spent taking care of them at an hourly rate. I suspect the animals will be awarded to you in court because I doubt those folks will be able to pay you. You have a strong case for animal cruelty to start with. Depending how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go it may not be a bad idea to get a lawyer on retainer.

Thank you all for the information. I hope to settle this asap.
I will update once it has been.

It might be worth a small fee to consult an attorney (sorry Vanessa missed that part in your post) If you send a certified letter to your "friend" telling him he has 30 days (or whatever the law says) to come get the animals you may have rights to them legally after that time (I didn't read the link sorry, just going by some of the property laws in my state).

As others have said I would not, under any circumstances work as a middle man or allow anyone to come to my home to purchase any of the animals and I would not let him take only certain animals so he can't just come and pick up a couple that that he has a buyer for. He takes them all Its all or none.

Having the animals puts you at an advantage if you want to recoup any of your money. If you are willing to just give them back and cut your losses that may be the easiest thing to do. As April said perhaps you can work out something where you keep some of the animals (if you want them) as payment. You probably won't make all your money back but it would be something. Id also get a accurate list of exactly what you have and start looking for reasonable fair market value.

Just make sure everything you do from now on is in writing. I'd print out any texts or communications you have and you may exchange in the future. You never know if a phone crashes or you lose them somehow.

I might also suggest an appeal to Judge Judy. I hate that show but my parents watch it religiously and that is one episode I would watch.

Tried to resolve this nice way a month ago. She offer me the whole collection at a price I felt was to high I counter offered her a fair base wholesale price on them. She turned it down so I asked to drop the animals all off that night as I felt I would no longer want to feed them etc. She went completely ghost until Friday.She had a mutual friend contact me and tell me they agreed to buy her collection. And then asked when I could deliver them an hour away as him and his wife have no way to transport them. Then also proceeded to ask when they were last fed as He was hunting for rodent racks because they have none currently and it maybe a little bit before he could feed them.

At that point I told him I didn't think it was right him to be in middle. But I could bring the animals to him if she requested after I was compensated for my cost in feeders and time. I even offered a simple cheap option Keeping 5 animals which wholesale maybe around 1200-1400 value. I was told no I would drop off the animals to be inventoried and then once she was happy she would make sure I am compensated that is the agreement she offered.
I cut contact I told him she needed to deal with me directly nothing will be handed over til my expenses are taken care of. And Monday I sent her a bill and letter for 46 weeks of feeders and care. To be paid within 7 business days. I will let you all know where this goes from here. I even charged the feeders on the low end as most are eating medium rats now.

Those snakes belong to you now. If they haven't compensated you for the care in that entire time they lost out. Yoi said many of the animals died directly after you took them in means they werent doing the right thing anyway. After 6.mos those snakes became yours as far as I'm concerned unless they made arrangements with staying otherwise . You house
fed watered and cared for them with YOUR OWN supplies at that.
If I am wrong then I am.wrong but they should have you keep 3/4 of those animals and let them sell the other 1/4 ..OR you sell the snakes and give them what's left over from approx 11k they owe you

I just read where they wanted a "Mutual friend" to buy them ..Frick them and I would just have animal.control come get the animals
These people are gaming you
BTW are they junkies because this sounds like a straight dope fiend move if there ever was one.
Get a new circle of friends asap

Actually not junkies as you would think. If they were I never would have helped. I only took the collection as help as they were having what seems to be a mental breakdown after spouse left. Current Actions now I understand why the spouse left. You are correct the animals were not in good condition when I picked them up none had water and many other issues that the first 3 months I was treating them to clear up.
I copied the state stable and farm laws for boarding livestock and following the guidelines for how to proceed with all actions as I was advised to do. As it is the same with our industry.

People like you are an asset . And fornthem.to take advantage of what you have FOR them and not TO them shows there character or should I say LACK of character. Either way , those animals are your lock stock and barrel

Finally done with this mess. After I sent the letter. She agreed to my original request. And I delivered the what we agreed back to her. And I am done and will not make this mistake again. Thank You all for advice.