Buyer Beware of Steve Ori Forgotten Realm

[Da_Ru]

I sent Steve Ori a deposit for a reverse stripe male. He said the most I would pay is 500 and if I did not like any he would refund my deposit. Well the babies shed and ate so he took pics. The only one that had a descent reverse stripe he was keeping. So I told him the only one I like was the one he was keeping. He said he was in a bad financial situation and he would sell him but only over $500.oo. I asked him for a refund and he said no. He is a untrustworthy person. And his e mail signature says Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back. We all know how that goes. I just wanted to warn the public about buying from him.

Drew McHenry

 

[Casey Hulse]

Guarantee?

. And his e mail signature says Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back. We all know how that goes.

We do know how that goes, that means he owes you a refund, period!
Good luck Drew

 

[The BoidSmith]

Drew,

By the way you describe it it seems a refund is of order. Not that it makes a difference but how much was the deposit that can put him in such a financial hardship?

Good luck!

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Without seeing the seller's side in this, I agree that you are owed a refund. Do you perhaps have copies of e-mail correspondences between the two of you that can be posted?

If you placed a deposit on an animal based on the fact that you could get the deposit back should you not be happy with the look of the babies after they shed, you should get your money back. You were offered a pick of the litter with your deposit. You were also offered the right to refuse and get a refund of your deposit should none of the animals meet your standards. The only one that DID meet your standards was the one Steve wanted to hold back. Now, Steve has hit a financial brick wall and offered to sell you this animal, but for higher than the $500 you were willing to pay for an animal from this litter. You have opted against purchasing that animal for the higher price.

The bottom line is, you were not happy with your choices and when you asked for a rightful refund of your deposit, you were denied. Sounds like a questionable person to deal with in my opinion.

 

[Gary Walsch]

Well Drew it sounds to me from what I have heard so far that you are due for a refund and Steve's finnancial situation should have nothing to do with it. If he accepted a deposit then he should not have touched that money until the transaction was fully completed. It sounds to me ( without also hearing from Steve's side ) like Steve handled this wrong and now he does not want to face the music, where in reality if what you say is true he should either give up the one you picked out for the price he quoted you or refund your deposit in full. But I think I would like to hear Steve's side of this story as well as see copies of any emails between you too that are concerning this particular transaction.

 

[Da_Ru]

Here are some emails.

HEy Drew,
I'm sorry but I'm not letting that guy go for
450.00. I've got others listed for 500.00 that I don't
like as much as the m2. If you'd like to send me
another 550.00 to make it a total of 650.00 shipped
I'll send him to you. It's up to you. Deposits are
non-refundable in this industry. I know of no company
that would give you your money back. I'll give you a
credit toward a future purchase if you like, which is
more than most would do. I lost 375.00 myself this
year because I couldn't come up with the remainder of
the money for a pair of dh for ghost that I really
wanted. Let me know what you decide.


--- Drew <[email protected]> wrote:
> $450
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Ori
> [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 3:13 PM
> To: Drew
> Subject: RE: reverse stripe
>
> Hey Drew,
> You've caught me at a bad time financially.
> Bad
> for me good for you. Make me an offer on the M2
> reverse striped male that I was keeping. You just
> might be able to talk me out of him.
>
>
> --- Drew <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Steve,
> > I was hoping for a male like the one
> you
> > are keeping. Since
> > there was only 1 with that amount of a reverse
> > stripe can I have my
> > deposit back. Thanks

 

[Da_Ru]

Here is another e mail

Hello Drew,

Certainly you can get your money back. There are only a few that are full reverse tail stripes. Quite a few have very unique tails with a partial reverse stripe. So far you'd be the first to but a deposit down and I'm only gonna keep one of the reverse stripes and it has both forms of stripe so it would have cost quite a bit if I were to sell it. This is a genetic trait that is carried by all of these animals. Any of the siblings even if they don't show any striping themselves can throw full stripe babies. Last year there were four head to tail stripes in the litter. YOu just never know what to expect with the stripes. Thats one of the reasons I like them, that and all are unique from each other. You can keep this email as a contract. It is as legal and binding as a written contract of any type. Let me know what you want to do. I'm sending you a link to my kingsnake gallery where most of the animals I've got for sale are located. I've also got a 66% dh for snow circleback yearling for sale that isn't pictured. I'm also expecting babies of the following: albino burmese pythons, Diamond/ Jungle carpet pythons, Mexican black tail boas, Jungle boas, and normal boas siblings to the jungles (normal looking sibllings to the jungles have been known to produce junglles). Let me know. Here's the link: http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?user=3965&cat=500&thumb=1

Drew <[email protected]> wrote:

If I put a deposit down and if there is no more reverse stripe can I get my money back. Thanks Drew



-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Ori [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 3:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: JUST BORN PASTEL STRIPE/REVERSE STRIPES



Hey Drunsar,

They've just been born and haven't shed the first time yet. They seem to get more pink with every shed. Also they are all different. I usually wait till they've shed twice and eaten at least once before I sex, take pics, and price them. They'll go anywhere from 150.00 to around 500.00 depending on stripeing and coloring. The reverse stripes will be at the top end though. I haven't seen many pastel BCI reverse stripes on the market and I'm kinda proud of them. This is a genetic trait but isn't from the Pete Kahl line. But like Pete's line the litter is always real variable. Anywhere from full stripes (head to tail) to hardly any stripeing at all, just some doubled up saddles. Most are very attractive pastels though, stripeing or not. If you want to paypal a 100.00 deposit I'll be giving the order of selections in the order the deposits arrived. I have many well known references if you would like them. Let us know.

[email protected] wrote:

how much is a reverse stripe male. Thanks

----------------------------------------------
This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.

Sent 02:30 PM, Feb 28th, 2003 from I.P. Address 168.73.245.57



Sincerely,
Steve Ori
Manager
A Forgotten Realm
Pet to Investment Quality animals
Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Sincerely,
Steve Ori
Manager
A Forgotten Realm
Pet to Investment Quality animals
Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back

 

[Wilomn]

With a tag line that as a guarentee it is totally WRONG not to give back the deposit. I don't think it's an industry standard to keep a deposit if you don't produce the animal for which the deposit was originally given. Quite the opposite in fact.

Now if a buyer backs out of a deal for which he has given a deposit AND the animal was produced and IS available then the deposit can be forfiet/credited towards another purchase at the breeders discretion.

I think a refund is in order here. That or the animal should be sold at the originally agreed on price. One or the other.

Wes Pollock

 

[The BoidSmith]

Deposits are non-refundable in this industry.

True if written in your TOS and if the seller has to offer what the buyer was intending to buy.

I know of no company that would give you your money back.

Countless if the seller can't deliver what he was supposed to.

I'll give you a credit toward a future purchase if you like, which is more than most would do.

I don't think that's acceptable in this case. In short, here is the risk of sending money to reserve animals that are not born yet. There was only one reverse stripe that Drew liked, and, oddly enough, that was precisely the one that was $200 more. In my opinion is either that animal or the money back.

Regards.

 

[NEWReptiles]

. In my opinion is either that animal or the money back.

Well put Daniel.

I see no reason for him to keep your deposit.

It would be a good idea to let him know this thread is here so he can respond.

 

[sputnik]

Drew McHenry

Have you told Steve that this thread exists?.... you might get your deposit back if you do. It's amazing how quickly people who dishonor a buyer will pay up to get rid of bad publicity.

YOU are IMHO entitled to a refund. You didn't get the animal you wanted or the service a paying customer deserves.

It seems forgotten realm needs to be reminded of the guarantee they offer! Just because they are in a financial hard spot doesn't mean a high paying customer has to suffer for their hardship.

 

[Ken Harbart]

I have mixed feelings on this one. While I feel that a refund is in order, I feel that it's because of a technicality- "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back." Were I in Steve's situation, I'd dfinitely abide by those words, and chalk it up as a lesson to be learned.

Looking at this objectively, the promised animals were produced, so this is not a case of the seller not being able to deliver. There seems to have been more than one reverse stripe in that litter.

As for the particular snake in question, it was made clear in the posted emails that "if" it were to be offered for sale, it would be at a higher price. At the time though, it was considered to be a holdback, and was not for sale.

Now, as I've said, there is indeed a lesson to be learned by sellers- "satisfaction guaranteed" sounds nice, but it can bite you in the @ss when you're not looking. How far should a "satisfaction guarantee" extend, since satisfaction is a subjective term. Should it consitute satisfaction with health? color? pattern? temperment? the alignment of ventral scales? or is it all-encompassing? Different people draw the line at different locations.

Reverse stripe boas are extremely variable. A deposit was made on a reverse stripe boa, a few of which were produced. However, those snakes that were placed on the market didn't meet the buyer's expectations. Normally, I'd say no refund is owed, but we once again come to that "satisfaction guaranteed...."

Drew should get his deposit back.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Well, according to what has been posted so far, Drew was told that if no snakes meeting his satisfaction were produced, he could get his deposit back. Of course, we are only able to take Drew's word so far, but if that was the case, then he should be given a full refund as none of the animals met his satisfaction/specifications.

Steve's financial situation should have nothing to do with completely denying a refund, though I could understand perhaps Steve asking for a period of time to get the deposit back to Drew if his situation was THAT bad. But even then, he should have known better than to spend that money before the transaction was completed.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Ken,

If that was the case the seller, probably shouldn't have even shown that animal. It was a holdback period. But the truth is Steve showed a picture of the animal in question, and suggested that it was for sale but at a higher price. I see your point, but I don't think it is fair for the buyer to show him the litter and once he points the one he is interested in tell him that that one is worth $200 more.

 

[sputnik]

DEPOSIT

Drew wrote: If I put a deposit down and if there is no more reverse stripe can I get my money back. Thanks Drew

Hello Drew, Certainly you can get your money back.

Okay, if I have that correct from the emails I have read, then what is the problem with giving back the deposit?

 

[Ken Harbart]

Bear with me folks, I'm going to address the various points in reverse order. But first, I want to reiterate the fact that I feel Drew is indeed owed a refund in this matter.

Scott, recall from the quotes that you posted that it was agreed upon that a refund would be given if there were no more reverse stripe boas. The problem is, there were indeed other reverse stripe boas available (as best I can discern from the emails), so this isn't a case of the promised animal not being produced.

Dan, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Posting a pic of the snake in question alongside the other pics wasn't the wisest decision that could have been made. At the very minimum, the caption of that picture should have noted that the snake was not for sale. Subsequently offering that snake to Drew at a higher price is the wildcard in all of this- was it an honest faux pas, or something

Rob, as best I can tell from the email exchange, Steve's financial situation isn't being used as a reason for denying the refund- only as a reason for being willing to sell the holdback snake.

Like I said though, key to this whole issue is "satisfaction guaranteed..." A customer was promised satisfaction, and this obligation needs to be met.

 

[sputnik]

Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back

The problem is, there were indeed other reverse stripe boas available (as best I can discern from the emails), so this isn't a case of the promised animal not being produced.

Ken,

I guess the buyer could of taken one of the other ones, but it doesn't seem to me (I could be wrong) that he spotted one he wants out of the other availables, but instead wants the same one that the seller states he wants to keep!

I'd have to say IMHO it gets right back to the email signature that says, "Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back."

And I don't think Drew is satisfied!

The signature statement seems to have a broad effect when taken a face value. I think if you are putting a deposit down on something and waiting for an outcome that doesn't eventuate then you are entitled to a refund on that deposit. As you stated in your post, At the very minimum, the caption of that picture should have noted that the snake was not for sale that drew wants.

 

[Wilomn]

I sent Steve Ori a deposit for a reverse stripe male. He said the most I would pay is 500 and if I did not like any he would refund my deposit

If the above was indeed the originally agreed to terms then there is no question that a refund is totally deserved. Combine that with the guarentee and how can you come to any other conclusion?

Steve, refund the man's money.

Wes Pollock

 

[Da_Ru]

I let Steve Ori know I was posting my concerns here. This is what he said

If you want to take it to the BOI well
that's up to you.


I am also going to file a complaint with the internet fraud FBI. He said I could his e mail as a binding contract and in his signature he says Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back. We shall see what happens.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Drew,

Sorry to hear that Steve never resolved this matter. It's amazing how some people still refuse to see the "cause and effect" of their actions. According to him he is financial hardship and that's why he refuses to send back your money. What he doesn't realize though is that by doing so his monetary problems will worsen as result of lost sales. If he doesn't realize this in time his business name might soon turn into a fullfilling prophecy and truly be a Forgotten realm.

Don't give up Drew!