Info Ashley Caspillo-SakaraGT4/Sakara *Possible Buyer Beware!*

just about everything (if not everything) about ibd is theory and research in progress. it is theory that it comes from snake mites (which is a particular species of mites, there are many species of mites), it is theory that it is contagious (evidence points to it, but still theory), it is theory that pythons die quicker once "infected". all these and so much more on ibd is theory. every legitimate laboratory results ive seen (and ive been in veteriary medicine for goin on 14 years now), that has had ibd testing performed, come back as probable suspect of inclusion body disease. because inclusion body cells are cells that are different from natural occuring cells in the body (organs, blood, skin, etc) i have never seen one legitimate lab results paper say, this animal is 100% ibd positive. not enough is known on it to definitively diagnose that yet

If it's not proved contagious then how is it that animals were purposely infected for research purposes?

Curious.

reticguy76 said:

just about everything (if not everything) about ibd is theory and research in progress. it is theory that it comes from snake mites (which is a particular species of mites, there are many species of mites), it is theory that it is contagious (evidence points to it, but still theory), it is theory that pythons die quicker once "infected". all these and so much more on ibd is theory. every legitimate laboratory results ive seen (and ive been in veteriary medicine for goin on 14 years now), that has had ibd testing performed, come back as probable suspect of inclusion body disease. because inclusion body cells are cells that are different from natural occuring cells in the body (organs, blood, skin, etc) i have never seen one legitimate lab results paper say, this animal is 100% ibd positive. not enough is known on it to definitively diagnose that yet

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You've been in veterinary medicin for nearly 14 yrs...what is your position? Are you a veterinarian? a veterinarian assistant? an animal care tech?

True, the presence of inclusion bodies does not mean an automatic diagnosis of IBD...and, as far as never seeing a 100% certain statement that it is IBD, I consider your statement to be somewhat misleading. How often do you find definitive statements like that regarding anything on those papers? The closest thing to that is usually "consistent with........"

hhmoore said:

medicin

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darned silent e went invisible on me....make that "medicine"

reticguy76 said:

just about everything (if not everything) about ibd is theory and research in progress. it is theory that it comes from snake mites (which is a particular species of mites, there are many species of mites), it is theory that it is contagious (evidence points to it, but still theory), it is theory that pythons die quicker once "infected". all these and so much more on ibd is theory. every legitimate laboratory results ive seen (and ive been in veteriary medicine for goin on 14 years now), that has had ibd testing performed, come back as probable suspect of inclusion body disease. because inclusion body cells are cells that are different from natural occuring cells in the body (organs, blood, skin, etc) i have never seen one legitimate lab results paper say, this animal is 100% ibd positive. not enough is known on it to definitively diagnose that yet

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Sorry I read that and at first it seemed like you were questioning IBD as a disease, but I believe what you were trying to say is "there are a lot of unknowns"..Unless I am misreading?

IBD IS a proven disease, a worldwide one, at that.

It IS contagious, certainly by direct contact, also passing from mother to baby has shown to pass the disease.

Mites are a common denominator, and it makes sense that a parasite that feeds on blood could transmit the disease.

Airborne has been mentioned as a substantiated theory in the case of BW Smith http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72726 who practices STRINGENT quarantine.

In any case, all medical diagnoses and science starts with a theory.

It's through testing, and monitoring that hard proof is established.

There actually IS a positive diagnosis for IBD, based on microscopic exams of the inclusions searching for a UNIQUE protein that has been associated with the disease. Basically, if the inclusion bodies and the protein are found, the snake HAS IBD.

There'd be a lot more medical documentation and known factors to this disease of more people would bother to have their dead animals examined & tested.

Because of the presence of the inclusion bodies and the unique protein present, an IBD POSITIVE TEST DOES INDICATE IBD presence, the doubt is eliminated at that point.

The only time doubt is left in question, is if the tests come back negative,
and:

A)previously has been IBD in the collection
B)lax quarantine was present
C)other snakes have died or been ill in the collection
D)the snake is new and/or came from questionable background
E) all of the above and any other weird things I missed (sorry NyQuill kicked in... :scatter: )

I hope that cleared that up some..Clear as mud?? Good, now we're all on the same page.

Yep, caught it...

F)presence of mites..

Sorry to get back on topic, since Ashley is no longer really posting, I thought I would share she does have intentions to have the snakes tested in January by Dr. Jacobson. http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/health-issues/67065-inclusion-body-disease-3.html#post866610

What I'm curious about:

What about the snakes that are still for sale? Are the ads going to stay up for 6mos or longer untill all the adequate testing is done to rule out the presence of IBD?

What about the snakes that have already been sold?

This has a devastating potential, and that's why it was brought here. I am good friends with Adrya, and have been for years. After watching her ordeal, and reading about BW's ordeal, it sickens me to imagine there are people out there that knowingly sell snakes that they have reasonable cause to assume are sick.

amercnwmn said:

What I'm curious about:

What about the snakes that are still for sale? Are the ads going to stay up for 6mos or longer untill all the adequate testing is done to rule out the presence of IBD?

What about the snakes that have already been sold?

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Could the same not be asked of you? Wasn't it mentioned that some of your animals were there for breeding purposes?

Are you going to have your animals tested?

Are any of yours listed for sale?

Have you sold any animals since finding this information out?

If so, have you notified them of these findings?



Just being fare.

??? I think you are thinking of Yvonne? "boachick17"
I don't have any of Ashley's snakes and I've never had any with hers.

My interest in this is trying to give the head's up that I only wish someone had given me. It's not personal against Ashley, however I will admit frustration and anger that she received a report that suggested the presence of IBD and still sold snakes.

About me:
Mostly, I've been keeping venomous, a few "educational program-kid friendly" non-venomous, and I have several lizards and a frog..

I DID have an outbreak that started about 2? years ago?

I'd bought 2 questionable snakes from an unknown seller at the show. All my others came from reputable sellers.

Like a moron I QT'd them all together. I'll NEVER do that again.

I had feeding issues and noticeable RI signs from 2 snakes:
a Canebrake & a Speckled Rattlesnake. The Cane died within a short period after acquisition, I'll have to look.
The Speck died about a month? later. (again, I've moved, I'll have to look)

I separated everyone out into different rooms, cleaned cages out completely, soaked snakes in Betadine mix..anything I could think of, while I waited for necropsy results.

I had to wait a little while as I ran into the issue of having snakes die on weekends when the vet was CLOSED, and the lab was a separate testing place they shipped the snakes to.

I wound up losing several of them before I ever got a handle on the problem. During that time I was freaking out thinking "OPMV!!!"
Aside from the 2 that never ate, and later showed RI signs (Cane & Speck) the other deaths were sudden, with no signs of illness. Eating, shedding, defecating normally. I was baffled.

I was finally able to get 2 snakes in for testing.. My A. chlorechis juvenile and my N. kaouthia (male juvenile) both had postmortem tests performed indicating high levels of Salmonella poisoning..NEW ONE ON ME.

A friend of mine on one of the other forums suggested feeder rodents. I resterilized cages with straight bleach, let it DRY on there, then hosed it off with a water hose and dry in the sun.

Both of the snakes sent off had been fed just prior to death, (one literally several hours) and looking back on records, the ONLY 2 that died of anything OTHER than sudden deaths within days of feeding were the 2 questionable snakes that never ate and showed RI signs...

I tossed all the feeders I had, and I've yet to have any more deaths similar.
A word about the feeders, they were all purchased at a nearby show within 3.5hrs driving distance. Maybe they weren't kept cold enough and re-froze? I dunno?

I have had 2 more deaths since then: a WC A. squamigera that ingested ReptiBark substrate (kick self) and a WC A. squamigera that I was treating for parasites that didn't pull through. Both of these were kept separate from the others in my collection.

I have, in the past year, sold several of my remaining collection due to some physical disabilities (crappy knee replacement) and I could no longer safely deal with my Naja and Bitis. I also sold a couple of other snakes.

Last I heard, from the 3 separate buyers I sold my snakes to, all snakes are still doing well and are just as hateful as they were when they were here.



Thankfully my tests indicated salmonella poisoning (assuming from contaminated rodents) and another bacteria that I will have to find.

I'm not a breeder, I'm a private keeper who enjoys just keeping. I've entertained the idea of eventually breeding my A. squamigera, and probably will after I have a stable selection to breed.

Anyways at the time of the outbreak, I locked down the collection. I was fortunate in a separate building and treated the poor things like they had the plague. I finally got necropsies & path tests done that cleared the collection of OPMV, and I've had no more "suspicious" deaths in over a year. I did sell some of my snakes, but as I said, collection was clear for 1year, and had clear tests.

I did lose a couple of WC A. squamigera (kept separate from others in the collection) one to substrate ingestion and one not long after purchase to a parasitic problem. Such is the risk with fresh imports.

Animals I was receiving were kept separate from my current collection, and I have records of feedings, defecations and sheds.

Sorry I repeated myself..Darn lack of "EDIT" button..

Yeah, maybe so. I admit to not scrolling back through the thread.

It happens!

Yes. Let me clarify. I am a veterinary technician certified in emergency/critical care and special emphasis on reptile/amphibian emergency medicine. Special emphasis means nothing on paper as far as a certificate. Now, the lab reports I was generalizing. Most lab reports come back, " so and so, consistent with whatever, in most cases, but not all. That was my point with an ibd lab report. Now, I do believe ibd is a disease and a bad one at that, I've seen animals with it. My point is that there is so many variables and unknowns left about ibd. But, one thing I've learned in veterinary medicine (and medicine in general), it's not an exact science. New diseases, cures, and research is being done everyday. Nothing is exact or 100% in medicine.

Just something to mull over that happened in my clinic a few weeks ago. We had a trouble breathing dog come in. He died. We sent off lung tissue to two different labs. One came back negative for valley fever, the other tested positive. It's ways possible that tissue or blood samples that collected and sent in, may not contain yet infected areas, therefore bring back potential false negative results. Hence, medicine is not 100%, never will be. You get the best diagnosis you can, treat and see what happens. You guy by a combo of clinical signs and what is seen diagnostically (x-rays, bloodwork, cytology, etc) and treat the best you know how and can

Disclaimer - I don't know all there is to know on this subject, not do I claim to. I'm just goin on professional experience as well as what I have (and haven't) read in texts or articles. All I have ever read from research veterinarians and biologists and such is theories and hyothesis. Although, I feel alot are very accurate and are probably as close to being true as possible. There are just not a ton of doctors and scientists with an interest in snake ibd to have the proper funds and requirements for good, accurate testing procedures. What a relief when we finally get good, pure, solid theories and research finally answered the best we can

I was just making the point that, although we only "theorize" the methods of transmission, I believe it's been more then proved that it is definitely a contagion.

im still not fully sold that it is "truely contagious" as opposed to we dont really know the origin or cause of it (ie, mites, airborne, etc). while i do agree that in most cases, if one comes down with ibd, chances are high that the entire or at least most of the collection will come down with it. but, with that said, if it is the snake mite for example, what if the mites only get on some of the clutch. there is documentation of only certain snakes in collections having ibd and other boids not "contracting" it. so, does it work like a tick fever or lymes disease where it is transmitted through a host ? who fully knows at this point. i dont go searching every five minutes on up to date ibd reports or research, but i try to keep up with it regularly and to my knowledge, i havent heard anything that without a doubt it is contagious or isolated.

" im still not fully sold that it is "truely contagious" as opposed to we dont really know the origin or cause of it (ie, mites, airborne, etc). while i do agree that in most cases, if one comes down with ibd, chances are high that the entire or at least most of the collection will come down with it."


Um, how else would most if not the entire collection get it if its NOT contagious?

You contradict yourself.

I think the point of this thread is not whether or not IBD is how IBD is spread as it id about how Ashley did not use proper quarantine proceedures before intorducing a new animal into her collection. By not doing do it could have possibly containminated her whole collection. When she got the test results back she should have gone on lock down. Nothing in and nothing out. That is what everyone else has or should do if they have a even close scare with IBD. IMO of course. She was proved in a few contadictions and people should be aware of this if just to let everyone know that she is somewhat reckless in her proccedures. I realize that not everyone is perfect but we all know that IBD should be taking with caution as we don't have enough clear facts to say one diagnosis for sure. She said she had a confirmed case of IBD but still continued to sell snakes out of the same collection that the IBD confirmed snake came from. That shows carelessness. Later she was called out and said the first vets finding could have been wrong only after she was called out. That is a little suspicious. She also has had other snakes die in the same collection where she said IBD was found. That should send up a red flag to her to stop bringing in or selling any animals until she can make sure her collection is okay. I am in no way saying her collection is sick but I strongly believe she should stop vending shows and selling animals and taking in others animals until she has a good amount of time without incident in her collection and can have test to help clear her collection. Am I correct in that assumption? I keep a strict quarantine room that is sanitized and cleaned weekly and all snakes are kept in that room for 6 months before goinf into my personnal collection. It does take longer to make my snake room look good but it keeps any diseases and or problems away from the snakes I breed or sell. Ashley you should do the right thing and stop buying and selling snakes until you can clearly provide proof that there are no issues in your snake room.

what im sayin, is if it is the snake mite (which is one of the strong theories) that is presenting as a host then, spreading to the collection if/when a snake gets mites or has mites already. i dont consider that contagious. i consider that host transmission. i fully believe that ibd is transmitted, but how ? is it throught host transmission, is it through, bodily contact/fluids (ie, breeding, oral discharch if in the same cage, etc) is it just being in the same area? thats what im sayin.

maybe im just too technical and nitpicking these terms