here is the entire discussion
please read it first
In a clutch of normal animal one was looking different, she was a female. We have decided to keep this strange animal and see what was going on. After 1 year she was a big fat female weighting 500gr so we decided to breed her with a nice yellow male.
In the same time they appeared on the web the first leatherback produced in the usa. Confronting the pictures they were looking similar (in the fact they are similar but there are big differences but I will talk of that later). We were assuming she was the same thing. There were not definite information if this trait was genetic and how could be transmitted, they were appearing randomly and noone had tested them.
The result in the first clutch was unbelievable, out of 18 egg there was 11 animals showing the same trait. So considering the genetic law this gene was acting like a dominance incomplete or codominant. I have called few usa breeder explaining them what were the results but the result they were having breeding the usa leatherback was different.
We have kept all the babies separated them in two small group, trying to create 2 different unrelated lines: one yellow and one red.
We have suggested that if it was a codominant then there could be a super form (and this one could be visible or not: two different example could be pastel in ball python and hipo in boas). We have crossed them back and the result was 5 silkback, 11 leatherback, 6 normal looking. This is a confirmation of the codominant expression of the gene. We have decided to call them silkback.
As far as we know now the leatheback gene that we have identified is completely different from the one in the usa so we think that maybe is not right to call them in the same way.
as we cannot kkep too many animals and here is still lot of work to do (outcrossing them to enhance the genetic difference, selecting the best colour etc) we have decided to share this project with dachiu and that's it!!!!
so now this is the story. it as casual mutation like albino like pastel like jungle like hipo like every mutation that change the standard conformation of the animal.
this is NOT DUE to things like OGM, nuclear reserch or other crazy things that i have heard (heve you considered how many money should cost a research with these techniques??? what would be the interest in doing that with pet animals???)....and is not due to photoshop (but if there is any professional user of photoshop who can do the same result, i do have a contact for an important society who was looking for that kind of person....big money offered)
is not due to imbreeding because 1) i keep record of my animals up to the third generation, 2) as a responsible keeper i always cross the animals in which there is the much difference. it is for that reason that i exchange animals with other breeder because i need to keep high the genetic pool inside my colony
Wendi: at the moment there is a certain amount of genetic distance between the animals to arrive to silkback but it is still small. As I said this is the starting point and lot of work need to be done. To see and detect how would act this gene we went over to find the result. Now that we know which is the result, the work will be to out cross several time the two lines and create a group of leather and silkback with a big “variety” of gentic. It is for that reason that I was pleased to share this project with dachiu, in this way we can work in two parallel way to achieve the best result in a shorter time. We have already planned to cross the silkback and the leatherback with different animals and then exchange again the animals in this way there should be a big increase in the genetic pool. This is the way it is done with all the genetic morph, most of the morph originates from one single animal.
To everybody: since few years ago, with pogona there was only a big work of SELECTING BREEDING. This mean that, even starting from a small group of animals showing some colour (surely not like today) that they were coming from a specific place, everybody was looking for the most coloured animals. Everybody was selecting the most coloured animals in clutch and then try again to breed them to enhance the colour. THESE PROCEEDINGS CAUSED IMBREEDING DEPRESSION, coloured bearded dragon are much more imbred than genetic morph. The difference with genetic morph is that they are all casual mutation and then there is a big work of out crossing to create a healthy viable population.
about the health of silkback: most of you are concerned with health problem with silk...but at the moment they don't seems to me different from another pogona, they aren't more vulnerable than the other. i would like to discuss this later in the husbandry section, can you keep your question for that section?
crazydude: yes silkback are mutant (if you want to call in this way all the animal which show a genetic mutation), like albinos geckoes or like leucistic ball python, or like salmon boa, or other mutation.
crazydude: let say you get 1 animal, if you cross with an unrelated animal only 50% of the genetic pool will be present in the babies, take one baby and breed with another unrelated animals, in the new born there will be 25%, if you cross again you will have 12% (with the other 88% being completely different). everytime you keep part of the genetic pool of the ancestors but you add new genes. if you consider a group of 6 (which is a small group) if for every baby you do the same hystory after 3 generation there will be a big gentic differnce. is not me who say that but reputable genetic researcher who study what is called "viable population". this is the work we have planned to do with dachiu
puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback. but as i said before this was done to test it!!!!! now, as a responsible keeper, i am outcrossing them (and dachiu is doing the same things) to create lines which are completely unrelated to their progenitors. i understand your concerning but you need to give me time....this year each of the leatherback is crossed with a different animal...they are already healthy animals and we are working to introduce in them the most variable genetic. if you ahve any suggestion to improve more their genetic pool i will be glad to know it.
"I'm sorry if the word mutant sounds mean, I guess I just had poor word choice. I was referring to the fact its a genetic mutation. I guess I just don't consider Albino geckos or Leuscistic ball pythons or salmon boas a mutation because it doesn't affect there daily life which in a way it affects silkbacks"
crazydude, first of all i think that genetic mutation like albino gecko will affect their lifestyle but it is really reduced to our eyes because they do not need a large amount of uvb.....but....what about with albino iguana or albino pogona??? as far as i know there is still lot of work to do to say that this situation does not affect their life style. if we consider ball python some of the mutation (starting from albino's) lead to animals with a poor growth rate, do you think these mutation doesn't affect their daily life????
"With less basking time do they ever not digest there food?
Have you ever had MBD or calcium problems with silkbacks?
If you try to breed them or if you have do you worry about their neck tearing?"
crazidude you are claiming things that they are not true... do i said they have less basking time??? as i said i will explain exactly everything inside the husbandry section but i can anticipate that you will not find so many differences comparing to the care of a normal bearded dragon.
ok here it is the section on husbandry, i hope it will be clear, but first i want to answer again to crazidude
"With line/inbreeding is there any underling problems that are not physical and are not noticed right away like more susceptibility to parasites or anything that you can not tell from just looking at them?"
such a thing should not be a problem with silkback but with every reptiles, i think you are triing to find the bad thing in any way you can. i suppose you haven't never buyied two animals from the same breeder unless he assured you that they were completely unrelated. of course i am only joking , that was to let you understand that, and i suppose lot of people, when i have bought my first pair of bearded dragon i wasn't aware of the imbreeding problem. i have bought a trio and then i bred them, and i have sold the babies . only later with the increase of knowledge i have understood what could be the problem and i went over to buy another trio to cross with the other, and that was my start as a breeder (15 years ago). but inbreeding problem, i have read somewhere, they will be visible anly after 3 or 4 generation (i need to find this paper, take it not for sure).
Husbandry
I normally keep the silkback like I keep my other dragon. Here is what I do. I normally keep my animals in a way they could go over the lamp to heat them up but I always give them a place where the temp is lower. On EACH cage there is a zoomed uvb 5.0. I DO HAVE LOT OF ATTENTION THAT THE CAGE ARE WELL VENTILATED. I keep babies in a box which is 50 x 30 the spot being in the first third, I keep the adult separate from female and they are all in cages 90x70x46 (cm not inches), the spot in the first third. In each cage there is one male OR 2 female. It is for that reason that I cannot keep too many animals and for that reason I shared the project with dachiu. When is breeding time I move the female that I want to breed n the cage of the male. Over the spot I do have 34 degree with a thermostat. On the other side there is a temp during the day that range from 27 to 30. in the night I switch off everything, the temp going slowly to 20-22.
Now…what is changed with silkback??
Nothing, the only thing I noticed is that they reach quicker the right body temp. so for the babies I sprayed them instead of one time x day, 2 times per day not because they need it but because I am scared they get dehidratated, and I want to prevent instead of treat it. The adult I do not spray them but I give them always available fresh water (which they don’t use that much…..but…just in case). It is important for them to have a place with lower temp….then…. they are animals and they exactly know where they should go….THEY TERMOREGULATE BY THEMSELVES. They eat like the other and the do shit like the other (lot of work to do). I feed them with roaches, cricket, mealworm, and of course vegetable.
This year I have tried to put them on the sun, and it is the same thing….when they reach the right temp they move to a place with no sun. I have tested them with “normal” pogona and the result was just that the silkback move first in search of food!!!!
About the skin they do not have any problem, it is not fragile…so I do not do anything special. I only noticed that they go on shedding more time.
As far as I know I think dachiu are doing the same thing I am doing.
“You have to remember that we are comparing it to our husbandry practices here in the U.S. For the most part, people try and keep hatchlings and juveniles at 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit. You stated that you keep them the same as your other bearded dragons, which is at 34 degrees Celsius on the basking spot. This converts over to 93.2 degrees Fahrenheit. That is substantially lower than what most keepers have their basking spots here. Our equivalent would be around 40-43 degrees Celsius. The adults are kept at closer to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, give or take a few degrees. (38 degrees Celsius). So, while there are not differences in your husbandry practices between a regular dragon and silkbacks, that would not be the case here in the U.S.”
Yes but as far as I now the temp you mentioned in usa are done to massimize growth rate, as a matter of fact in this way bearded dragon reach adult size in 6 months. Things like that are done to be able to have babies grow quickly to be sold as soon as you can. But from some research in Australia bearded dragon reach their sexual maturity in 1-2 year. This does seems to me natural!!!!!! And my animals need at least one year to be young adult and sometimes I do wait 2 year until I breed them….
Second point: you are making confusion with temp of the environment and body temp. there are lot of research on several species that they reach a body temp higher than the one of the ambient (for example vipera kaznakovi who live near Siberia and it can reach really high body temp, or Mediterranean tortoises that they are still active in October even if the temp is low, they just need a bit of sun to increase body temp…if you want I have thousand of example). The “lower” basking temp does not mean that they do not reach the right temp but they ay take more time. The high temp some usa breeder keep (I know some who don’t do that) is because in this way the animals reach the right body temp first and then they can give food more times (we talk about 4-6 times per day). BUT these breeder told me that they need to spray the animals several times per day to avoid overheating and dehidratation….YOU NEED TO SAY THE WHOLE STORY NOT PART OF IT
”I also wanted to address the UVB. Many keepers use either 10.0 fluorescents or MVB's, which give out a significantly higher amount of UVB. Would the increased UVB have a negative impact on the silkback's skin? For example, I have a Reptile UV Mega ray MVB and the reading on my uvb meter is about 148 at the point where my dragon is receiving the uvb rays. They do well with this”
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?? put me fact on it, not presuming it.
“ It is also important to know how far the silkbacks are from the uvb source. According to the manufacturer of the 5.0, they should be 10-12 inches, or 10-25 cms from the uvb source. The uvb they receive is minimal. Again, this is very different than what many keepers and breeders practice in the U.S.”
First of all my 5.0 lamp are 12 cm over the animals for 14 hour. Second of all there is a currently going research on 10.0 uvb lamb all over Europe (I have talked with some vet) because they are assuming that if the animals are kept too close to this kind of lamp they could create problem to the eyes of the animals starting from congiuntivitis and in the worse cases cancer (the research is still going i know some result as pers. comm). If you go on the zoomed site on the lamp section you will read that the 10.0 are builted for tall terrarium and they suggest a distance between the lamp and the animals of 45cm. so who is wrong???? don’t forget that in nature they can adjust by themselves, do we give the same opportunity to our captive animals?????
“question regarding the humidity. I had heard that electricity is very expensive in Italy and air conditioning is not very common. So, I was wondering if you have air conditioning where the silkbacks are kept? If not, do you live in a humid region? Most of us here have air conditioning, so even in places where it is very humid (like NC & AR), the dragons habitat is usually kept at a much lower humidity level. So, I was wondering what the humidity level is in the silckbacks enclosures.”
First of all I live in rome which is not that humid, second of all the cages are inside rooms which are completely isolated (and that was costing me lot of money). Inside my room I have 40% of humidity. When the weather is right I take them outside and every night I put them back. I do not have any air condition for them…. they are desertic animals.
”but I just wanted to point out that there are several differences between your recommended husbandry for silkbacks and regular bearded dragons”
This is your opinion, at the moment I keep normal and silkback in the same way…and at this moment my RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES
”how closely related the dragons were that created the silkback mutation. You have implied they were closely related, but I was wondering to what degree? Were they siblings? I am trying to get a grasp on this and also would really like to know how long ago the mutation occurred and how many generations have passed. Were the leather backs that originally created the silkbacks closely related? If so, is it possible this mutation is a result of inbreeding and not a co-dominant gene? Has it had time to be proven out as a co-dominant trait?”
i think I have already answered this question 3 times already…""puppytoes: as i told you there is a distance but i am aware that it is a small distance...it's a new thing and i do have 4 generation now. i have tested the genetic of silkback in the third generation of leatherback."" . but I can add more, silkback is not a mutation over another mutation. But it is the super form of a codominant gene. And this year I proved it out because I have bred my silkback male on a normal female (unrelated) and it gave me all the babies being leath. And this is the last confirmation you could have. I suppose you may need some info on genetic and I suggest you to read the chapter in the N.E.R.D. site. For your info I add some link that can be helpful
http://vmsherp.com/LCGenetics301.htm this is a section who explain easily the transmission of characters and the definition
http://www.geneticswizard.com/ this is a site where you can easily test any cross you want to do and it will give you the result in %
wendi I am sorry I am answering in this way but it seems to me that you are not doing constructive criticism but you are trying to find any fact that can help you to say silkback are not healty. if for any reason you need that (and I don’t understand why) please tell me and I will find a way to help you.
the first thing i will say is that the whole history was described to really important breeder and seeing the result they sayd there is no doubt is a codominant gene
now....
Two normal animal are bred and one was different (first generation). I took the first animal (the female) and crossed with one normal unrelated male. I produced the second generation. I grow up all the babies (11 babies), I have splitted in two group, yellow (4) and red (7). Now the story should be divided in 2 section
First section. The 2 of the yellow (2 were not ready) and 4 of the red line (1 was not ready) were bred each with a coloured animal (yellow leath to yellow, red leath to red) unrelated. I produced the third generation (two lines). I have kept most of the red produced and this year I crossed the one who was able to breed to new unrelated animals. This is the fourth generation
Second section: The two red remaining I bred them together with the aim to test and find out the super form. I hatched 5 silkback (first generation) and the leather. It is for that reason that I say there is a distance but it is still small, because they come over from a cross of the second generation. This year I tested the silk in two ways. I crossed two of the third generation (one of the yellow line and one of the red line) which they should be more separate and I get silkback again (first generation but with more distance). The male of the first generation was ready to breed and I crossed him with a normal female and the result was all leath which confirm the codominant gene. The other 3 were not ready this year so we will wait till next year and we will breed them with other unrelated animals.
Then last year we gave some animals to dachiu, to help us with this project, 1 silkback (first generation) and some leath of the third generation (some of the red line and some of the yellow line) and as far as I know the ones ready to breed are/will be crossed with other unrelated animals. They know exactly the genetic situation of the animals and they are working with me to enhance the genetic difference.
This is a big project with lot of work to do for both of us. It is for that reason that I take the whole thing in a passionate way and I don’t like that people, who don’t know how difficult it is, would argue on this. I think that if you tell this story to anyone who breed snake (starting from nerd, bob clark, vin russo just to name some of the reputable snake breeder or to ron tremper, gecko breeder, or anyone else) who is working with genetic mutation he will tell you that this is the way we should work. So onestly….i don’t know what to say more
alessandro