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10-19-2012, 01:03 AM

As a veterinary professional, I am intrigued by this thread.

I have heard this surgery referred to by Adder (Australian super snake guy Raymond Hoser apparently) as "simple," "minor," and also that a veterinarian who may accidentally leave some gland tissue still in the snake as an "idiot."

So, considering I work with board certified veterinary surgeons every day I'm at work and have administered and monitored anesthesia for reptiles on many occasions, I wanted to know more about this super snake surgeon from Australia who apparently can extricate an entire part of a reptile body that isn't meant to be extricated every time, flawlessly, without fail, with no anesthesia deaths or major stress/pain inflicted on the patients. So I go to the website.

Funny story, but Raymond Hoser is not a veterinarian. He most certainly is not a surgeon.

I don't really care to weigh in on the right vs wrong on convenience surgeries on animals. I'm disgusted there even has to be a debate. But again, as someone who has been there, part of herp surgeries, here are some facts:

Surgery on a reptile is NEVER "simple." If you know anything about the unique needs of these animals in a hospital setting I do not need to explain. If you do not, you should learn.

Surgery on ANY animal, for any reason, is never treated as "simple" by a good surgery team. Surgery and anesthesia carry risks. We train hard to minimize and react to those risks. It is not a benign process.

When you cut into tissue, it all bleeds. It all gets inflamed. Specific tissues start to look a lot alike once you go mucking around in there. I don't have experience with this specific procedure, but if world renowned oncologists can only give you a 95% chance that they got ALL yout tumor out, well, then at best you have a 5% chance of being killed by a snake with it's glands surgically removed.

Even if you DID have to be a moron to botch a gland removal surgery (which is not even remotely the case), the sad fact is that just because you are a doctor does not mean you are exempt from being a moron. Or an asshole, or a show boater, or whatever else might cause you to get way in over your head and ruin a bunch of people's lives. Every day, there are both animal and human surgeons doing stupid things to their patients that they have no business even attempting. Do we really need to add making venomous snakes non-venomous to the ways we can screw up? I think not.

The first rule of medicine is: "First, do no harm." That means that you are never,ever supposed to practice medicine in a manor where the potential harm to your patient outweighs the potential benefits. Remember: TO THE PATIENT, not the patient's keeper. Sadly, in many respects veterinary medicine has gotten away from that, but that doesn't mean it's supposed to happen.

I don't usually like to rant, but I hate hate hate it when people who do not have experience with something (i.e., surgery on a venomous snake), go cavalierly discussing how easy it is, and how you'd have to be a moron to not get it right. I'm not going to comment on how easy/difficult/stupid/not it is to work with hots, because I don't work with hots. So let's not discuss how easy/difficult this type of operation is unless you've actually performed it or been in the room, as part of the team, assisting. I can't even comment, I can only speculate, based on experience. My opinion is that, right or wrong, removing the venom glands from a snake is no little deal.

10-19-2012, 01:03 AM	#142
skirtinthedirt	As a veterinary professional, I am intrigued by this thread. I have heard this surgery referred to by Adder (Australian super snake guy Raymond Hoser apparently) as "simple," "minor," and also that a veterinarian who may accidentally leave some gland tissue still in the snake as an "idiot." So, considering I work with board certified veterinary surgeons every day I'm at work and have administered and monitored anesthesia for reptiles on many occasions, I wanted to know more about this super snake surgeon from Australia who apparently can extricate an entire part of a reptile body that isn't meant to be extricated every time, flawlessly, without fail, with no anesthesia deaths or major stress/pain inflicted on the patients. So I go to the website. Funny story, but Raymond Hoser is not a veterinarian. He most certainly is not a surgeon. I don't really care to weigh in on the right vs wrong on convenience surgeries on animals. I'm disgusted there even has to be a debate. But again, as someone who has been there, part of herp surgeries, here are some facts: Surgery on a reptile is NEVER "simple." If you know anything about the unique needs of these animals in a hospital setting I do not need to explain. If you do not, you should learn. Surgery on ANY animal, for any reason, is never treated as "simple" by a good surgery team. Surgery and anesthesia carry risks. We train hard to minimize and react to those risks. It is not a benign process. When you cut into tissue, it all bleeds. It all gets inflamed. Specific tissues start to look a lot alike once you go mucking around in there. I don't have experience with this specific procedure, but if world renowned oncologists can only give you a 95% chance that they got ALL yout tumor out, well, then at best you have a 5% chance of being killed by a snake with it's glands surgically removed. Even if you DID have to be a moron to botch a gland removal surgery (which is not even remotely the case), the sad fact is that just because you are a doctor does not mean you are exempt from being a moron. Or an asshole, or a show boater, or whatever else might cause you to get way in over your head and ruin a bunch of people's lives. Every day, there are both animal and human surgeons doing stupid things to their patients that they have no business even attempting. Do we really need to add making venomous snakes non-venomous to the ways we can screw up? I think not. The first rule of medicine is: "First, do no harm." That means that you are never,ever supposed to practice medicine in a manor where the potential harm to your patient outweighs the potential benefits. Remember: TO THE PATIENT, not the patient's keeper. Sadly, in many respects veterinary medicine has gotten away from that, but that doesn't mean it's supposed to happen. I don't usually like to rant, but I hate hate hate it when people who do not have experience with something (i.e., surgery on a venomous snake), go cavalierly discussing how easy it is, and how you'd have to be a moron to not get it right. I'm not going to comment on how easy/difficult/stupid/not it is to work with hots, because I don't work with hots. So let's not discuss how easy/difficult this type of operation is unless you've actually performed it or been in the room, as part of the team, assisting. I can't even comment, I can only speculate, based on experience. My opinion is that, right or wrong, removing the venom glands from a snake is no little deal.