FaunaClassifieds - View Single Post - Adenovirus Document from University of Florida

04-08-2007, 07:01 PM

CheriS "Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional".

There is no misunderstanding....I do understand my conversations with Dr. Stacey and section 5.4 of the new document he states the two most common methods as PCR and EM..............since I have live animals...He did most certainly say that he knows of no other testing method than the PCR and EM for my live animals. He did NOT mention the liver biopsy and naturally he did not mention the necropsy for my live animals.

CheriS "There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!" That would be Light Microscopy? But AV has to be detected another way first and then the LM can detect if illness was attributed to it

Jacobson: Light Microscopy is neither sensitive nor specific, and either a positive or negative diagnosis of infection by Light Microscopy needs to be confirmed by other means.

CheriS: All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons"

yes, absolutely...we hear you and if an animal is ill or dead it should be liver biopsied maybe or if dead should be sent for necropsy to find out what is going on............however, and this is where the misunderstanding came in possibly ......I was discussing tests for live and healthy animals...so when you mentioned 2 more accurate tests that were being ignored (which is the liver biopsy and necropsy you say) I became excited.

CheriS: What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

Dr. Brian Stacey :Tammy, we are in a somewhat frustrating time right now because there is so much unknown about adenoviruses and associated disease. It would be ideal to achieve a completely negative colony; however, I forewarn you that it may be very difficult because prevalence appears to be so high and adenovirus is incredibly stable in the environment.

Well first we have to find those negatives and figure out what negative means

I have some verifiable with IL and FL and according to statistics there are less than 80 resulting negatives that participated in the testing from 2003 to date from Florida and recently with IL.

If any other labs did testing we could info from them.

The doctors just stated they are unsure when this entered the dragon population so that is something to consider...it might have always, always been here.............dragons are not exempt from the laws of this planet that the rest of us are subject to.

also, with such a small number of negatives are they an inferior animal? How is the immune system of this animal when exposed to this virus..and he will be exposed most likely. Is the healthy positive a superior and victorious animal?

the dragon I imported from Austria..he had no contact with US dragons.....he went to NJ where we had no other dragons..his fecal was pulled within 48 hrs of arrival and he was positive. Something does not make sense.......and until all the other countries PCR their animals... I PCR'd one from Austria...positive..so what do you think the chances of that whole colony being positive if he was????

We did not have PCR available until 2003, the EM is not sensitive and give false negatives making you think they are neg the necropsy is not all that accurate with the LM for detecting AV..so the people that actually spent the time and money to necropsy a dead lizard might have gotten back a negative for AV on it. Look, we can argue this till Bess wanders up but, here it is: here were no tests for live animals before these and no one had liver biopsies on healthy animals...never heard of this even....who had this done? So, the possibility that it was always here, always everywhere should be considered and the breeders being blamed for this has to stop.

CherS: protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week)

of course they will, I did....but there are no clean colonies.

04-08-2007, 07:01 PM	#22
draggintails	CheriS "Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional". There is no misunderstanding....I do understand my conversations with Dr. Stacey and section 5.4 of the new document he states the two most common methods as PCR and EM..............since I have live animals...He did most certainly say that he knows of no other testing method than the PCR and EM for my live animals. He did NOT mention the liver biopsy and naturally he did not mention the necropsy for my live animals. CheriS "There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!" That would be Light Microscopy? But AV has to be detected another way first and then the LM can detect if illness was attributed to it Jacobson: Light Microscopy is neither sensitive nor specific, and either a positive or negative diagnosis of infection by Light Microscopy needs to be confirmed by other means. CheriS: All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons" yes, absolutely...we hear you and if an animal is ill or dead it should be liver biopsied maybe or if dead should be sent for necropsy to find out what is going on............however, and this is where the misunderstanding came in possibly ......I was discussing tests for live and healthy animals...so when you mentioned 2 more accurate tests that were being ignored (which is the liver biopsy and necropsy you say) I became excited. CheriS: What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing? Dr. Brian Stacey :Tammy, we are in a somewhat frustrating time right now because there is so much unknown about adenoviruses and associated disease. It would be ideal to achieve a completely negative colony; however, I forewarn you that it may be very difficult because prevalence appears to be so high and adenovirus is incredibly stable in the environment. Well first we have to find those negatives and figure out what negative means I have some verifiable with IL and FL and according to statistics there are less than 80 resulting negatives that participated in the testing from 2003 to date from Florida and recently with IL. If any other labs did testing we could info from them. The doctors just stated they are unsure when this entered the dragon population so that is something to consider...it might have always, always been here.............dragons are not exempt from the laws of this planet that the rest of us are subject to. also, with such a small number of negatives are they an inferior animal? How is the immune system of this animal when exposed to this virus..and he will be exposed most likely. Is the healthy positive a superior and victorious animal? the dragon I imported from Austria..he had no contact with US dragons.....he went to NJ where we had no other dragons..his fecal was pulled within 48 hrs of arrival and he was positive. Something does not make sense.......and until all the other countries PCR their animals... I PCR'd one from Austria...positive..so what do you think the chances of that whole colony being positive if he was???? We did not have PCR available until 2003, the EM is not sensitive and give false negatives making you think they are neg the necropsy is not all that accurate with the LM for detecting AV..so the people that actually spent the time and money to necropsy a dead lizard might have gotten back a negative for AV on it. Look, we can argue this till Bess wanders up but, here it is: here were no tests for live animals before these and no one had liver biopsies on healthy animals...never heard of this even....who had this done? So, the possibility that it was always here, always everywhere should be considered and the breeders being blamed for this has to stop. CherS: protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) of course they will, I did....but there are no clean colonies.