Joe Haggard - VERY BAD GUY TO DEAL WITH!

Hello all,

A few months ago, I bought a snake from Joe Haggard for $20 and 2 baby corns snakes. I got the 2 baby corn snakes from a trusted local breeder for $40.

So during this sale that the local herp society was sponsering (Central Illinois Herpetological Soceity), I decided that I would like a ball python and Joe had a few for sale and I kept coming back to this male that he had. Very nice snake.

So, I got it. I had had ball pythons before but little did I know that this one was going to be sick. Well it was. He had RI when Joe brought him to my house but it wasn't severe at the time so I didn't know he had it. Well, a few days later I noticed that he had it so I upped the temps in his cage and lowered the humidity. That still didn't cure it so I came to Clay English's forum (http://forum.redtailboas.com) and asked for help. The posts are in the past if you'd like to check them out. Anyway, I heard about Tylan 200 there for treating RI. I called the vet and made an appointment. We took him to the vet and they gave him a shot of Baytril (they didn't have any tylan) and sent him home. After a couple days he still had it so we made the trip down to a local farm store to get Tylan 200. The vet got the dosage and gave him the shots. That *seemed* to clear up the RI.

But he still wouldn't eat. I gave him to one of my more expirenced friends to see if he could get it to eat. He couldn't get it to eat. Eventually, I had to start tube feeding him. I used a mixture of baby food and water. He always kept that down and every 2 weeks I tried to get him to eat a small pinky rat. He started to show interest but never took it. So I kept on tube feeding him to make sure he got the nutrients.

Well eventually, he died. Once he died, I kept the body for awhile too see if Joe would pay for a necropsy to see what killed him. I tried to contact Joe repeatedly. I was never able to reach him. Two times I was able to reach his wife. But that was only by blocking my number from being read on Caller ID. The rest of the time no one answered. So finally I chalked it up to him selling me a sick snake and buried Shadow.

This little "adventure" cost my parents and I a little over $400 for vet bills and the bottle of Tylan 200.

Recently, Joe reappeared at our annual show at the local museum. I asked him about it and he said that it was because I kept him by a window in the basement for 2 days. Even though his temperatures in the cage were 88 on the hot side and 85 on the cool side. Then I moved him to my room. So basically, Joe screwed me.

I'm very interested to see what he has to say here.

DO NOT BUY FROM JOE HAGGARD!
RIP Shadow

Sincerly,
Matt Frauenhoffer

I hate to say this but the most likely culprit of your snakes death was probably the tylan. It is severely toxic to reptiles kidneys. you should have had a sensitivity test done on the mucus so that the vet could make a better choice of drugs to treat the animal with.
Also how long did you have the ball before you started to force feed? Was the animal losing muscle tone? passing blood in the stool?
What time of year did you buy the snake and was it an adult or a small baby?
There are soo many variables that could have caused the death of your snake.
I am NOT saying mind you that it might not have anything when you bought it but from your description your vet did not even know what to do.
I do know know either of you(I dont think) so please dont think I am defending anyone here.

thanks for listening,
Jewell

Again--I don't know the particulars of your deal, but was the animal sold as CB or WC? For $20 at a local show I imagine WC. Though "a few days" is pretty quick to come down with a noticable RI there seems to be a number of errors with your husbandry--no offence meant, and I can understand the reticence on the part of a the seller to refund you money. A healthy BP in an appropriate enclosure should easily be able to go 6-9 months (and frequently will go at least a few months) without eating. If you have a sick BP, I would get it healthy first, and then worry about feeding it. It should also be able to go incredible lengths of time without food. 85--88 degrees is not a temperature gradient, its a hot spot. I know this isn't the forum to go into detail about husbandry practices, so I won't, but I suggest you do significantly more research before purchasing any more animals. Sorry if this sounds harsh. Any of a number of things could be responsible for his death "a few months later."


Did you contact the seller as soon as you knew the BP was sick, as opposed to a few months later once it had died?



If you never tube feed another BP you are probably doing things right.

i will be nice for now but as far as this child is concerned,i did not sell him a sick snake.there was nothing wrong with the ball python when i sold it to matt,i would have not let it leave my home if there was any question about its health.i was told in advance not to sell to matt ie(he was very unexperianced with any reptiles).i told him to think about the snake and to ask his parents before whe even talked about doing a sale.he constantly kept calling me until i made a deal with him.when i took the snake to his home i saw where he had his cage setup in his parents basement,it was near a slidding door going outside.you could feel cold air coming in,i told matt he should move the cage away from the doorway.he said i will do it tommorrow.i had to have surgery and my wife told me matt called and said he needed to talk to me.i talked to matt and he said the snake i had sold him had a cold(i was told he never moved his cage).i told him i did not make the snake sick so i should not be expected to do anything about it.i am very sorry i even allowed one of my animales to be killed by a kid but i tried to help matt.i feel if he was not willing to think of the animals well being than he should take all responsibility for it dieing.as far as trying to give me a bad name i will forget this one,if i ever see or hear any more i will contact my attorney.i have sold alot of reptiles over the last two years and i have had no problems after the sale.

To the last poster (I'm unsure of your name):

Legal threats are pretty laughable, don't go that route.

As to the rest of your post, I can understand your irritation at this situation. When long after the sale did the buyer first contact you with a complaint? What terms, if any, were discussed at the time of sale?

When=How.

Me=Undercaffienated.

hi my name is joe haggard,as far as the actual sale of the ball python .it was last october ,i was told not to sell anything to matt.at the beggining of our sell i told matt several things before i would sell to him(he was only 15yrs old).members of the herp club i used to belong to told me not to sell to matt for these reasons(he did not take care of his animals that he had before i met him,his parents did not want him to have anything,he did not show enough concern when he had sick animales before).it was well into november before i sold the ball python to matt,after several phone calls from matt.he told me that his parents said it was ok as long as he took care of this one.i was told later that matt was not caring for his animals,i called him and told him what will happen when you dont take care of your reptiles properly.he told me he knew what he was doing.so after that conversation i told him he was on his own when he called and said shadow was very sick.i regret selling that ball python to matt so he could kill it and blame me for it a year later.i felt sorry for matt because of the way people treat him at that herp club ie(they refer to him as fat matt) also his parents just dropped him off and left him at the tinly park show last year all by himself,they expected the herp club members to keep a eye on him.i know the kid was 15yrs old but come on just drop him off in chicago all by himself.i bought a dozen ball pythons that the one i sold to matt was one of them.i had them 3 months before i put them up for sale(they all ate they all shed with no problems)i do not sell a animal that is sick or one that is not eating because i was ripped off when i first started having reptiles.i did not like the way i was treated and i make sure i dont do that to anyone EVER!!!!

Joe: Few questions.

Who said I don't take care of my animals? Your 'friends'...hmm whatever that tall guys name is and who else?

How do you explain how skinny he was? And the fact that 2 weeks after he got to my home AND that he was UPSTAIRS, that he didn't eat?

You never called me. I got you TWICE and that was all I ever talked to you. The rest of the time I left probably about 20 messages waiting for you to call back.

My parents dropped me off at the show because they were a half hour away. They didn't expect ANYONE to take care of me at the show. I've proven myself capable.

No, I did not keep calling you until you made a deal. I talked to you during the whole sale about that bp and you were trying to get me to buy some other things..blood pythons I remember.

Just having them for 3 months seems like a short time to have something then sell it.

SWAG: I was under the impression that it was CB but I never knew that for a fact. I treated it with a watered-down version of Tylan mixed by my vet.

GOLDENSERPENT: It was a baby (not sure of the age). The snake was loosing what little weight it had and hadn't eaten at all. He also hadn't had a stool until the day it died.

And as for not caring for reptiles. I own 2 BCI's with another one coming as soon as I pay it off. They eat weekly and have never had any problems with them. I got them online and these are the only animals I've ever had that never had diseases. I find that funny because I've always heard that sometimes local breeders are better. Guess I was wrong.

I'm content with keeping boas but I just wanted to post here to see everyone's opinion.

Thanks,
Matt Frauenhoffer

ok matt we end this now! the people who told me i should not sell to you are well established members of the herp club.and out of respect for them i will not tell you there names to where you can go crying to them!!!!as far as how long i had the ball pythons, go buy a ball python or any reptile from one of your local pet stores.they dont care if the animals eats or dies once they are out the door.as far as you giving it something from a farm store seems to me if your vet did not have the meds that you gave the snake maybe there was a reason.possibly that med is fatal to reptiles,its seems you think you know more than a vet.you are trying to say this was your first snake ever right?what happened to the female ball python you had when i sold the male to you??i was told that she died from uri two days after i sold you the male.what did you forget about her??????if i remember right you bought her from a local pet store and she never ate for you.you yourself told me this.so before you try to give somebody a bad name you had better think about telling the truth.

well id just like to say a few things about this bp that was sold to matt. for one i dont appreciate being brought up in this just cause im good friends with joe. next i was the one selling blood pythons at this so called show. matt u need to get ur facts strait before u bring up someone elses name. as far as the bp goes we bought our reptiles from a well known breeder , and they were purchased in aug. 2003. the sale was the end of oct. 2003. i was selling bloods, retics, rocks and albino burms. at which i bought from this dealer. i had two bloods die on me about 2-3 months after the show. so whos to blame, me, the breeder or some one eles? well thats the chances u take in dealing with reptiles. as far as matt is concerned i had nothing to do with this transaction between joe and u. so leave me out of it. and another thing taking care of bci's and bp's are a whole different story. ive been in reptiles 5yrs and have had sick snakes and snake die but ive never lost a bci. mostly bp's and blood. so id appreciate it if u left me(tall guy) aka Eric out of it. i have always been truthful with u matt and i considerd us friends but now i have no buiness talking to u anymore. i will not even acknowledge your presents in the future. later dweeb.