These Four Questions

I changed the title of this thread because folks were drifting from my objective. The original title eluded to the "Big Can of worms "thread, and how it seemed to be a lost cause. Now lets focus on this, and forget the chit chat please. Thanks.

As for the edit button, mine works. Not sure why yours doesn't.

I'm seeing folks I have not seen in some time around here. And THAT is a good thing. Clearly each of us thinks and feels something about the indigo. And clearly each of us has both passionate, and intelligent things to say, and contribute. Each of us should. Government officials, private breeders, zoos, and anyone else who cares about the long term survival of this species. And as I have said before, All are welcome to do so equally here, and I do not wish to be in charge, or to exclude anyone. I'd much rather include everyone. And I recognize that I appear overzealous to some, so I nominate Jeff Snodgres, for Pres., as I think he's the best man for it. All in favor say "I", all opposed name someone else. And I think we have great need for a unified, coodrdinated effort, between all parties who have any kind of stake in the future of this species. We are all linked together, in some way, to that species. So we should form an alliance based solely on that premise. I have thrown around the idea of "Indigos Forever". It's for everyone to take part in who wants to. But we can call it whatever you guys want. Just like the T-shirts I'm working on. The next, and hopefully final version is making progress. I would like to see the website do the same, hint hint. And as far as I'm concerned, each of you can call me whatever you want. It does not bother me. What bothers me is these 4 questions,...

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?
2. If not, why not?
3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?
4.Where do we start, and when?
I think if we could limit the scope of this thread to answer those 4 questions, I'd be very interested to see the results of everyone's opinion. And I do mean everyone. I will abstain from interacting throughout until everyone had ample opportunity to respond.
T.

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?
2. If not, why not?
3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?
4.Where do we start, and when?

Captive and wild populations are of equal importance but may as well be on different planets. You can't collect indigos, nor release them into the wild, so what happens with the captive population has no affect on the wild population.

Obviously the best survival plan for any species would be the protection of its habitat. Hypothetically speaking, you could dump all the babies born each year into the wild and it would do little if they had no where to live.

I try to read any article I come accross regarding wild indigos. My impression is that wild populations are pretty stable, in fact if population alone were the only factor, then there could be a case made for removing them from the Federal list. However, habitat loss is such that this would be foolish. I am sure someone is going to say I am wrong about this and I very well may be. I have never seen studies only articles.

As for the captive populations my preference would be for them to remain true Indigos. Once you start playing the morph game you then begin setting the locality breeders against the morph breeders. Then someday the true indigos are lost in captivity and all have some "morph" in them. That is basically what's happened with kingsnakes today. IMO.

1.Do we consider the captive and wild populations to be of equal importance?

This would depend upon who you ask, as most field biologists would state the wild population is of greater importance, as the group represents part of an ecological niche within its native habitat, something captive populations do not, with the exception of captive assurance colonies.

2. If not, why not?

Field biologists are not going to be all that interested in specimens produced in captivity, as they are not subject to the variety of conditions wild specimens are and will never be suitable for release into existing habitat where the species has been extirpated.
Gary Johnson, a senior herp keeper at the Louisville Zoo and a very long time keeper of Drys, and I discussed the effects captivity has had upon several species. Snakes tend to harbor an exceptional olfactory system, which they depend upon for several aspects of their survival and it is apparent a great extent of this is lost after several generations of captive breeding and being confined indoors within enclosures.
Anyhow, most field biologists do not find value, financial or entertainment wise, in keeping specimens of interest in captivity and many do not believe the behaviors demonstrated by captive specimens will accurately convey to specimens in the wild.
Whereas, hobbyists often believe they might be called upon to help with repatriation projects or to provide data for beneficial research projects in the future.


3. If so, then how best to insure long term survival of this species as a whole?

As I said, those at the front line of D. couperi conservation do not believe captive D. couperi populations are as important as wild populations, as there is little risk of the captive population completely disappearing, but such is not the case for several wild populations. While I doubt the species as a whole will disappear from the wild anytime soon, I do believe much work needs to be completed to prevent the extirpation of several populations in the way of habitat preservation, by identifying suitable habitat where populations still remain and preventing the development and fragmentation of such.
The only captive populations which have a chance to become equal to wild populations would be assurance colonies, but no specimens would come from the existing captive population.

4. Where do we start, and when?

You start by lobbying officials in positions to make change and supporting organizations which recognize the needs of the species, such as the Nature Conservancy and Gopher Tortoise Trust. It also helps to make those residing in the home range of D. couperi aware of what is happening and what they stand to lose. Once many people have the knowledge of such and start speaking out, legislators begin listening and doing something. The article within the Miami Sun Times, regarding the plight of the Gopher Tortoise stirred a lot of emotion and spread the word on the home front and keeping such messages circulating will definitely be of benefit.


Kevin made mention of the difference between locality breeders and morph breeders. Unfortunately, there are no breeders of D. couperi harboring accurate locality data regarding their animals, as the species has been protected since 1973 and very few private hobbyist maintained such data back then and though wild specimens have made their way into the captive populations, I doubt anyone has maintained locality records, as the specimens involved would be illegal. Also, there are some legal WC and early filial generation specimens within zoological institutions, but the locality data from such cannot be deemed accurate in most cases.

Best regards,

Jeff

I have enjoyed the extra busy forum lately. Its nice to see so much interest and intensity. Jeff your previous post mentioned olfactory loss in multi generational captives. I don't doubt this but I am curious how they proved it.
Was there some kind of test or was this more of a personal observation type of thing?

Hello, Gale,

I should have worded that differently, as I do not believe the olfactory system has been reduced in the physiological sense, but rather the efficacy of such has been reduced from lack of exposure and requirement.

Thanks, Tony!

But as you know, I have too many irons in the fire as it is and while I enjoy helping out when possible, I really do not believe I have the time to organize and lobby for such an organization. I believe such an organization would be better benefited by someone who could invest the time such an effort would require to be successful. You’re a very passionate individual when it comes to all things Drymarchon, so I believe you would make a great candidate…

Best regards,

Jeff

Originally Posted by epidemic

You start by lobbying officials in positions to make change and supporting organizations which recognize the needs of the species, such as the Nature Conservancy and Gopher Tortoise Trust. It also helps to make those residing in the home range of D. couperi aware of what is happening and what they stand to lose. Once many people have the knowledge of such and start speaking out, legislators begin listening and doing something. The article within the Miami Sun Times, regarding the plight of the Gopher Tortoise stirred a lot of emotion and spread the word on the home front and keeping such messages circulating will definitely be of benefit.

Best regards,

Jeff

The South Florida SunSentinel articles really made interest in the Gophers take off here. I think they were instramental in getting the protective status of the Torts upgraded recently. :scatter:

Hopefully,TPTB won't do their usual developer influenced footdragging to avoid actually passing some regs to put teeth into the new staus.

Maybe there will be some trickle down effect on those other animals which use those tortoise burrows.

You're absolutely right Lloyd,

The article I was referring to was published within the South Florida SunSentinel. My, it has been a long while since I have lived in the Sunshine State, as I had three different papers mixed up! The South Florida SunSentinel, the Miami Herald and the Marco Island sun-Times!!

Thansk for setting the record straight, Lloyd!

Jeff

PS: How are the pines doing??

Yeah, it's great to see one of the local fishwraps get involved and do some good!

The Pines are doing great and are very impressive, especially at dinner time!! Everyone that sees them, just says: "Oh,Wow".

"doing" rather.

Why can't we edit in this forum? It's not the BOI.....

I fixed it for you, though I'm not sure why you were unable to edit it yourself. Perhaps it's a MOD thing! ;0) Heck, if you read through many of my posts, it becomes obvious that my fingers are blind, or suffering from dyslexia, or both! ;0)

Glad to hear the pines are doing well and that everyone is impressed with them. I really enjoyed working with them, but felt as though my Drys needed the extra time and room.

I hate it that you cannot work with D. couperi down there, but the erebennus and rubidus are graet to work with as well...

Best regards,

Jeff