7'-6" Rattler bites man in Morganton

". . .that animal was senselessly killed, and it surely did not have to end that way. . ."

I don't disagree, but after a person has been made aware of their less than herp friendly behavior, admits wrongdoing, expresses remorse, and says "lesson learned," I fail to see the reason for jumping all over her at THAT point. It may offer a release of righteous indignation on the part of some, but that is hardly constructive criticism.

At least, that's the way it seems to me . . .

Darin Chappell said:

". . .that animal was senselessly killed, and it surely did not have to end that way. . ."

I don't disagree, but after a person has been made aware of their less than herp friendly behavior, admits wrongdoing, expresses remorse, and says "lesson learned," I fail to see the reason for jumping all over her at THAT point. It may offer a release of righteous indignation on the part of some, but that is hardly constructive criticism.

At least, that's the way it seems to me . . .

Click to expand...

I actually started to pick apart her posts quote by quote, but you know what, it's really not going to change anything (the deed was done last summer), the snake will remain dead, and in that respect you are right: nothing constructive will come out from me constantly blasting her for her herp-hateful behavior. I can only hope she will react in a more rational manner the next time she encounters a rattler, and if she feels that she will behave the same way, my suggestion to her would be to move to a place where rattlesnakes are not so prominent. Her behavior will not only teach her daughters (who she claimed to teach not to kill things, not setting a very good example) the same fear-based reactions, but it might very well get her or someone else bitten the next time.

Abhishek Prasad

Sure, explaining in detail how decapitation is death by slow torture for a snake might make an already apologetic snake killer feel even worse about what she did. That's a good thing in my opinion. There is no amount of mental suffering that can even begin to compare to the physical suffering that a small and helpless animal endured at her hands. Decapitation by blunt object would be excruciatingly painful for any animal, and it is especially torturous for snakes because their pain and suffering does not end quickly with decapitation.

The only possible good outcome is enough mental suffering and remorse to motivate a positive change in the behavior like taking a snake safety training course or taking the time to find a local wildlife expert who can safely remove venomous snakes the next time one is encountered. "I'm sorry" is *not* enough, not by itself. It doesn't impress me or earn any slack, not unless it is accompanied by positive action.

snakegetters said:

Sure, explaining in detail how decapitation is death by slow torture for a snake might make an already apologetic snake killer feel even worse about what she did. That's a good thing in my opinion. There is no amount of mental suffering that can even begin to compare to the physical suffering that a small and helpless animal endured at her hands. Decapitation by blunt object would be excruciatingly painful for any animal, and it is especially torturous for snakes because their pain and suffering does not end quickly with decapitation.

The only possible good outcome is enough mental suffering and remorse to motivate a positive change in the behavior like taking a snake safety training course or taking the time to find a local wildlife expert who can safely remove venomous snakes the next time one is encountered. "I'm sorry" is *not* enough, not by itself. It doesn't impress me or earn any slack, not unless it is accompanied by positive action.

Click to expand...

In all honesty Tanith, I highly doubt the person in question endured all that much "mental suffering"...I doubt that even with this thread, it has made her lose a wink of sleep. Do I think she's sorry? Sure. Does it change anything? Nope. The snake still died a brutal and painful death. Will she behave the same way again, should she encounter another rattlesnake? For both her sake, and the snake's, I sincerely hope not.

Some people reading this thread might think I (and Tanith, and whoever else who spoke against killing the snakes) are going a little too far for one little snake. But in reality, it doesn't stop with one snake. The fear and misunderstanding of rattlesnakes (and in to some people, snakes and reptiles in general) is the cause for the vast decline of rattlesnake species throughout the U.S. Let's face it, we're not hunting them to extinction for their meat...while some people do eat rattlers, most don't, and most are killed out of ignorance or just plain cruelty. In some states, certain species of rattlesnakes have been pretty much totally annihilated. So if we might sound a little harsh with our words, it's simply because fear and ignorance are more contagious than ebola, and it NEVER ends with killing just one snake. I really do feel sorry for the guy who got bitten, but the snake was just doing what it had to to protect itself...it percieved a threat (and rightfully so with all the humans out there killing them), and reacted accordingly. Unfortunately, it bit someone who presumably wouldn't have caused it any harm otherwise, but it's not like snakes can reason that. The snake didn't deserve to die. It is extremely unlikely it would have bitten anyone else, unless they chose to mess with it and agitate it somemore. A simple call to a snake remover, or even sweeping it into a garbage can and relocating it would have been a much more sensible outcome. Because now everyone who saw the man get bitten, and the snake killed, will probably do the exact same thing the next time they see a rattlesnake, whether it bites someone or not.

Same thing with the baby rattler: Next time a daycare worker finds a rattler (whether it's at the daycare or not), she's much more likely to kill it rather than contain it like she did at the daycare. She didn't know what to do with the snake, and the woman (who is presumably involved with reptiles to some degree) killed it, therefore the daycare worker will most likely do the same exact thing next time. Fear and ignorance are contagious. Let's try our best not to spread it.

Abhishek Prasad

"There is no amount of mental suffering that can even begin to compare to the physical suffering that a small and helpless animal endured at her hands."

With all due respect, that's the type of hyperbolic tripe that causes so many to run in the OPPOSITE direction whenever the subject of cruelty to animals is raised. It does no good to go overboard on this, no matter how badly you feel for that snake. I wish it hadn't been handled as it was, but it happened. The person involved has learned her lesson, and she has been publically chastised for her behavior. It was a snake that did not need to be killed, but it was a snake, afterall. To say that no mental suffering could compare to the physical suffering of the animal is ludicrous! What if her child had been bitten because she was trying to handle the animal in a different way? What if the animal control people were called, and as they were on the way, her child (or someone else's) got too close to the snake and was bitten? Would THAT type of mental suffering (guilt for not having taken the welfare of the children into higher consideration than the welfare of the snake) rival what was suffered by the animal?

I'm sorry Tanith. I respect your knowledge of hots and your dedication to herpetology in every regard, but you just come off as being too militant in this instance, and I think you've got your back up now too far to admit you may have been over the top in this regard.

" 'I'm sorry' is *not* enough, not by itself. It doesn't impress me or earn any slack ... " Well, I guess we can all be thankful that it is not you to whom we have to answer for our actions. It must be wonderful having the moral authority to proclaim worthy or not the motivations of those attempting to apologize for their actions. Not too over the top there, Huh?

I'm done.

Darin Chappell said:

To say that no mental suffering could compare to the physical suffering of the animal is ludicrous!

Click to expand...

Let's see. Slow decapitation with a blunt object, or the death of a loved one? Which would you prefer? Neither seem particularly pleasant to me. In any case, what we're comparing here is guilt and remorse over having killed a snake vs. what the snake physically suffered. Not much comparison there.

What if her child had been bitten because she was trying to handle the animal in a different way?

Click to expand...

The way she handled the animal was statistically the most risky to her and to all bystanders. There is no good reason to attack a small animal that is already in confinement. She increased the chances that someone would be bitten. A really hurting, desperate snake can perform some impressive physical feats that can surprise even an experienced handler. It is a much more dangerous animal, and one more likely to escape restraint and thrash wildly around the room biting people.

What if the animal control people were called, and as they were on the way, her child (or someone else's) got too close to the snake and was bitten? Would THAT type of mental suffering (guilt for not having taken the welfare of the children into higher consideration than the welfare of the snake) rival what was suffered by the animal?

Click to expand...

The correct action that would have been safest for the children and also the most humane for the snake would have been to further secure the already captured animal. It puts more people at risk, not less, when you escalate the level of violence by attacking a potentially dangerous wild animal. Ask any cop how stupid it is to start beating up an armed suspect who was being quiet and ready to go willingly. Everyone on the scene is at much higher risk of getting hurt when the level of violence in a situation is escalated.

You're welcome to your opinions, but the fact is that I do have strong feelings on this subject and I will continue to express them bluntly. The only way that a snake killer gets any sympathy or support from me by taking positive action to change the behavior. I can't say that my sympathy or support is likely to be particularly important to anyone. But for whatever small amount it may be worth, it is earned by deeds rather than words.

positive actions

First, I would like to agree with Tannith. I've seen it first hand here in "Round up Land". I now have hardened ranchers (SNAKE KILL IT!!!) call me or even bring me rattlers. Why, because I helped to teach them about the dangers and benefits of rattlesnakes (and others). The facts are right in front. Most (around 90%) bites are people trying to catch, tease, or kill a rattlesnake (AP Network News 98). Some of these folks are in REAL rural areas and have "few options" but to kill the snake (rattlesnakes' heads are dangerous up to 48 hours after decapitation, Klauber decaptitated 30 or so animals to get this info, if you don't have his books...buy them), yet, through talking and educational shows some of these rural folks now call me to remove the snakes. What does this tell us? Education, education, education. These people are hardcore ranchers, REAL cowboys, not some Yuppie who wants to get back to the real life. People who have seen snakes killed by relatives for generations. Yet, they have changed their stance because of better information. If it was only one rancher who would call me instead of grabbing a shovel, it would be worth it. But, it is now several ranchers and the Sherrifs department who call for snake rescues....Priceless.
Bottom line is Tannith is right. There are far too many options in the year 2004, I mean come on, we've put SEVERAL people on the moon for crying out loud!!!!! Why on earth would it be OK to use death as an option for a little snake, even if it bit someone??


David Furphy
AKN Venom & Exotics
Alamogordo NM

Re: positive actions

amabilis said:

First, I would like to agree with Tannith. I've seen it first hand here in "Round up Land". I now have hardened ranchers (SNAKE KILL IT!!!) call me or even bring me rattlers. Why, because I helped to teach them about the dangers and benefits of rattlesnakes (and others). The facts are right in front. Most (around 90%) bites are people trying to catch, tease, or kill a rattlesnake (AP Network News 98). Some of these folks are in REAL rural areas and have "few options" but to kill the snake (rattlesnakes' heads are dangerous up to 48 hours after decapitation, Klauber decaptitated 30 or so animals to get this info, if you don't have his books...buy them), yet, through talking and educational shows some of these rural folks now call me to remove the snakes. What does this tell us? Education, education, education. These people are hardcore ranchers, REAL cowboys, not some Yuppie who wants to get back to the real life. People who have seen snakes killed by relatives for generations. Yet, they have changed their stance because of better information. If it was only one rancher who would call me instead of grabbing a shovel, it would be worth it. But, it is now several ranchers and the Sherrifs department who call for snake rescues....Priceless.
Bottom line is Tannith is right. There are far too many options in the year 2004, I mean come on, we've put SEVERAL people on the moon for crying out loud!!!!! Why on earth would it be OK to use death as an option for a little snake, even if it bit someone??


David Furphy
AKN Venom & Exotics
Alamogordo NM

Click to expand...

Very well put David, I couldn't have said it any better.
By the way, I live just south of you in Las Cruces, it sucks that you live right in Roundup country, but at least we have someone on our side fighting the good fight up there!