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Bad Guy Andrew Potts- I want my money back

The thing that really caught my attention was that the snake was stuck to the bag as if he was biting it! The first thing I thought was that snake just got too hot! Then reading the details of shipping...

A few years back I had a YB Ball Python with some stuck shed and I thought I would put him in my sink to soak a bit. I was cleaning cages and had the water running for awhile and thought everything was cool, so I put him in the sink. I looked in after a minute and he was trying to get out of the sink, but they always do. I left for another minute and came back and the snake was under water with a full open mouth rattle snake looking bite onto his own side! I went to grab him and the water had to be around 105-110 degrees (maybe more). His neck and head felt stiff, so I continued to massage him off and on for about an hour and a half... Then his mouth finally closed and he died. I really hate even thinking how I cooked the little guy and it truthfully bothers me recounting the story. But... It tells me that this snake was more-than-likely cooked! Add to that 2 heat packs, during the warm temps, and the fact that the SELLER shipped in a manner that had a snake in a box all day (a very warm day).

I personally would refund him the money and be done with the situation. Its pretty obvious why that snake is dead! A legit response from someone that is so horrified over a blackmail attempt would be to refund or replace the buyer, then to press charges on whoever was responsible for blackmailing you. Other than that it looks kinda shady.
 
I dont know any of the people involved in all of this and Im not necessarily taking sides with the seller, but I would be very very cautious of refunding any money as well. One, the blackmail emails started before the seller even got pics of the dead snake. Two, it seems very odd me that the that Kevin is obviously new to this and needs these other two clowns to give him guidance. I just cant see someone new to the hobby spending 4,600 on a snake. I could be wrong, but it is fishy. Third, after the blackmailing emails that talk about posting on the boi, Kevin creates and account here the day before. Does anyone know that these three are NOT the same person. I asked before, but I dont think it was answered.
 
The sad part is, there is no proof the OP was in the blackmail. The OP has continuously stated that he didn't agree with what Sean said. The OP did ask for the sharp aztec but it wasn't a threat. For all I know, he was willing to pay the difference. Sean was the one who did the blackmail and he was not the customer. Sean also came and apologized for his actions, which I don't know if it would hold any merit in court.

Now, I don't know the OP or Sean. However, from an objective standpoint, there is absolutely no proof the OP was in on the blackmail. Does this mean he wasn't in on it? Nope, he could have been sitting at Sean's house helping him type the email. But, we can't prove it. The communication between the OP and Andrew always seemed good. Neither of them were being difficult until Andrew got the blackmail letter from Sean.

I don't think Andrew will be able to prosecute the OP for the blackmail since it would be hard to prove that he was in on it. He can try to go after Sean for the blackmail but that still leaves the OP without a snake he purchased and without the money he put into it. Andrew stated on this thread that he gives a 6 month guarantee and also has stated in this thread that he will not refund this guy's money for a dead snake. The OP should have grounds right there to file a claim to get his money back.

This whole situation is very sad.

Star
 
IMO, the only reason Sean came forward with an apology was because he got caught showing his :bleep: and he knew it would be detrimental to his sales. He didn't even address it when he first came to this thread...he had to go away and think about it for a while. I don't think he deserves much in the way of credit for his apology.
Sean scammed somebody here when he was a minor (he still has the incorrect DOB listed, btw - unless he was lying about his age in that thread), and came back a few years later trying to play himself as an older, more mature, good guy that is doing things the right way now....but, from his activity in this situation, it doesn't look as if he's improved a whole lot.
 
hhmoore said:
IMO, the only reason Sean came forward with an apology was because he got caught showing his :bleep: and he knew it would be detrimental to his sales. He didn't even address it when he first came to this thread...he had to go away and think about it for a while. I don't think he deserves much in the way of credit for his apology.
Sean scammed somebody here when he was a minor (he still has the incorrect DOB listed, btw - unless he was lying about his age in that thread), and came back a few years later trying to play himself as an older, more mature, good guy that is doing things the right way now....but, from his activity in this situation, it doesn't look as if he's improved a whole lot.
Click to expand...

I am not disagreeing with you at all. I am talking about from a legality point. If Andrew goes to press charges for the blackmail, he can't press charges on the OP, it would have to be on Sean. Now, if the courts actually looked into the case, I don't know if the apology would help Sean or not. That is what I was trying to get at.

Star
 
ApexPredatorBoids said:
Really!? That's a bold (read: poorly thought out, IMO) statement. You really think the onus is on the buyer to jump through hoops or seek legal action to fix the seller's mistake? I think you're coming pretty far out of left field on this one. Live arrival only guaranteed through litigation if you piss him off...Hell of a precedent to encourage, in regards to standing behind one's TOS.



Oh, I don't know about that. While we're going out of our way to spin things and miss the real point while arguing moot ones, the buyer paid a lot of cash for a live, healthy snake. What he received was a dead and rotting one. That could just as easily be twisted and labled as fraud. Mr. Potts keeps asking the buyer to prove, via posting of emails, that he didn't approve of how his associates were handling the situation. So, turnabout is fair play. I mean, can the seller prove that the snake was alive when he sent it out? Maybe he had a very recently deceased boa that he saw as an opportunity to turn into a quick $4500. Does he happen to have a continuous video clip showing the living snake being packed and sealed in the box and that box being driven to and handed over to the shipping agent? My own ideas are no more approaching ad ridiculum than those of the conspiracy theorists that support the seller's refusal to do the right thing.

Unless people really buy into the X-Files fan-fiction-like conspiracy theories, it's pretty hard to paint a picture that doesn't involve the snake dying due to the seller's shipping negligence. It doesn't take a specialized degree in thermodynamics to speculate on how it likely went down: snake shipped in a very small, styrofoam-insulated compartment with 2 heat packs in 80+ degree weather. Said styrofoam box is placed within a cardboard box which is then transported in a large metal box (delivery truck), possibly having very restricted air flow due to being surrounded by others boxes on all sides. Pretty easy, for me, at least, to see how this could lead to a slow-roasted boa.

Bottom line: the fact that the buyer seems to have made the mistake of aligning himself with some shady characters DOES NOT, in and of itself, negate the seller's extremely likely responsibility for the snake's death. If he's that salty over what he believes to be blackmail, then he should pursue it in court against those that can be proven to be directly responsible for it. Meanwhile, what he owes the actual buyer, I believe, is an entirely different situation.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
cobraman1 said:
I dont know any of the people involved in all of this and Im not necessarily taking sides with the seller, but I would be very very cautious of refunding any money as well. One, the blackmail emails started before the seller even got pics of the dead snake. Two, it seems very odd me that the that Kevin is obviously new to this and needs these other two clowns to give him guidance. I just cant see someone new to the hobby spending 4,600 on a snake. I could be wrong, but it is fishy. Third, after the blackmailing emails that talk about posting on the boi, Kevin creates and account here the day before. Does anyone know that these three are NOT the same person. I asked before, but I dont think it was answered.
Click to expand...

http://imgur.com/xTth7

Never thought I would have to prove my ID before. You got my military ID because well I dont feel like going into photoshop and blacking out my address and such
 
I would also like to point out that if you type in Andrew Potts Boa in google you will now see this forum at the #4 google hit
 
The OP needs to be refunded. That is the bottom line. Mr. Potts messed up and is now trying to find any reason not to refund the OP his money. Just another person to avoid. How sad... once again someone can't see past greed.
 
Baileykm said:
http://imgur.com/xTth7

Never thought I would have to prove my ID before. You got my military ID because well I dont feel like going into photoshop and blacking out my address and such
Click to expand...

You would be surprised at some of the people on here that go by many different names. Being a marine or ex-marine, you should know never to take pictures of a CAC card and post it, especially if its expired. Im still not sure why your partners(I know you say different, but they seem to be your partners) started blackmailing andrew before you even sent him proof of the snake being dead, but it is hard to believe that you had no idea what so ever that they were doing this. All in all I 100% understand why Andrew is hesitant to send a replacement or a refund. It all seems very shady at the least.
 
You know this whole situation is very similar to the gigantic racial war that is being started by the media. Take facts away and jump on the "blackmail" band wagon like that is a good enough excuse to commit a crime yourself. Having some random 3rd party send you stupid emails is NOT a good excuse to STEAL SOMEONES MONEY!!! (which is effectively what holding the refund actually is)

There is no excuse for holding the money. The animal is dead, and its obvious why, the OP (as far as anyone can PROVE) was not involved in the "blackmail" part of this situation.

The seller even admits he shipped for colder weather, which was not the case that day. it was a HOT day, with 2 heat packs....that is a home made tomb for any snake...He says there is "a slight change it arrived alive"

a slight chance isn't good enough to hold the refund....it's MUCH more likely it died due to over heating, a SLIGHT chance it arrived alive is not a good reason to steal someone's money.
 
An hour of my life gone by. I think theres a lot of faults here on both sides. Kenin, if it wasn't for your 2 buddies I'm sure you would already have your refund by now. If these other guys are such big breeders why do they need this other guy (Kevin) for a partner and have to give up profit to him? If Kevin is legit I think he learned a lesson about sharing your business with others. I also think this saved Kevin from gettin scammed by his two "partners." Id bet my last dime he would not have gotten the money he deserved for the litters his mail would have produced. A newbie & 2 pro scammers for a business group. Kevin, I know this sucks but IMO the other 2 screwed you out of getting anything.

As far as Andrew goes, yes the snake more then likely died in transit due to the 2 heat packs. I would say minus all the other issues Kevin would get a refund or replacement animal. When the other guys chimed in an tried blackmailing me, and Kevin stating before they were "partners", I wouldn't deal with any of you three.

If everyone wants to ad Andrew to their "do not buy list" thats your choice. 95% of the people in the herp community would not be buying this snake, unless it was tax season. Is he being greedy? The guy has snakes worth more then my truck why would he need to be greedy? A group of business partners attempted to scam him, then one partner backs out to work on his own?

Its a lose/lose situation for everyone. Now Kevin could try to take Andrew to court and would have a chance of getting his $4600 back. He also could take a $1,000 trip to Florida and come home empty handed. If that did work, Andrew could sue Griffis for blackmailing and get his $4600 right back.....possibly. But until then, its tire spinning
 
Tom Pecanic said:
Multiple names Potts=crybaby, negligent shipper, and thief..
Click to expand...

I've got to say, Tom, that I'm pretty surprised that you're letting Sean off the hook so easily with the explanation that you had a good transaction with him 6-8 yrs ago....and because he was pissed. Really? You're letting him off with that lame a$$ apology because you sold him a boa once? I'm in agreement that Andrew needs to step up with a refund or replacement animal...but I think you're way off base on Sean.
 
cobraman1 said:
You would be surprised at some of the people on here that go by many different names. Being a marine or ex-marine, you should know never to take pictures of a CAC card and post it, especially if its expired.
Click to expand...

Being a Marine with a Secret Clearance that allowed me to view satellite communications, GPS, and aviation communications I have never heard of not taking a picture of you CAC card. I am sure that is probably a rule somewhere do not act like it is on your friday safety brief.
 
Does attempted "blackmail" from a 3rd party give legal right to the seller to hold the OP's money?

I'm not asking for opinions, or what anyone else would do in this situation, because NONE of that actually matters.

I'm asking

legally
 
Keys & Kritterz said:
If everyone wants to ad Andrew to their "do not buy list" thats your choice. 95% of the people in the herp community would not be buying this snake, unless it was tax season. Is he being greedy? The guy has snakes worth more then my truck why would he need to be greedy? A group of business partners attempted to scam him, then one partner backs out to work on his own?
Click to expand...

just because a snake is worth $10,000 doesnt mean someone is going to pay him that much money. Especially when they see something like this. Who is going to pay that kind of money if they dont have the faith he will do the right thing for them?
I do strongly feel that both sides were wrong. I do not know either party, I just feel that not returning the money or a different snake is completely unethical regardless of the situation. You screwed up and the snake died due to your incompetence. YOU NEED TO MAKE IT RIGHT.
 
cobraman1 said:
...All in all I 100% understand why Andrew is hesitant to send a replacement or a refund. It all seems very shady at the least.
Click to expand...

Interesting take on things. You stand firmly against blackmail, but outright theft is cool with you. While it may be very enlightening to anyone who reads your posts with the intent of gauging your own integrity, or lack thereof, it's not particularly relevant to the topic at hand.

In the simplest terms: the buyer paid for an item that arrived severely broken and the seller is shirking his duty to rectify what he admitted was his own mistake. The actions of characters whose relationship is tangential, at best, absolutely should not be an acceptable justification for withholding what's due to the main principal involved, the guy that actually handed over the money for the dead snake. I believe anything beyond this is completely moot and serves no purpose other than creating lame rationalizations for the seller to justify keeping money received for a product that he ultimately didn't provide in what could sensibly be called a satisfactory condition.
 
ApexPredatorBoids said:
Interesting take on things. You stand firmly against blackmail, but outright theft is cool with you. While it may be very enlightening to anyone who reads your posts with the intent of gauging your own integrity, or lack thereof, it's not particularly relevant to the topic at hand.

In the simplest terms: the buyer paid for an item that arrived severely broken and the seller is shirking his duty to rectify what he admitted was his own mistake. The actions of characters whose relationship is tangential, at best, absolutely should not be an acceptable justification for withholding what's due to the main principal involved, the guy that actually handed over the money for the dead snake. I believe anything beyond this is completely moot and serves no purpose other than creating lame rationalizations for the seller to justify keeping money received for a product that he ultimately didn't provide in what could sensibly be called a satisfactory condition.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
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