Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

Posted today

1.1 2003 albino boas het for snow
usa
Posted by XXX on February 18, 2004 at 19:55:54

Nice pair male is blind in 1 eye but feeds great and the female is flawless. They were produced by larry kenton at maryland reptile farm and both are het for snow. I am asking $1750.00 for the pair and would like to deliver them to the VA show saturday or the MD show on the 6th.

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Heres a new one

ok ive got 2 boas left....anery f and albino f....both great health...and eating,shedding fine....female albino is blind but donig fine...im asking 750 for albino and 200 for my anery...firm...thanx and god bless brian

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The following was added on 02/18/04
im going 900 plus shipping....that a deal ...but i dont have pics at this time


Bryon Adzic

( Not MINE)

Well...it started to show-up in the "other" strain

1.1 Sharp Strain Albino Boas 5-6 Foot
Leechburg, PA
Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on March 24, 2004 at 07:54:19
Registered PetHobbyist User since 2004-02-10

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I got a pair of '02 Sharp Strain Albinos for sale. Both are around 5 to 6 feet in lenght and pounding frozen thawed rats. The male has messed up eyes but they have been that way since birth. They have gotten better over the years. It has not affected his eating or growth. The pitcure lets you know that. The first pic is the female, second is the male. Third is a tail shot of the female. Credit cards, Cashier checks and Money orders are the only forms of payment accepted. Call (724) 283-8406 or email me. SERIOS INQUIRES ONLY.

Price: $8500 Shipped

Please SERIOS INQUIRES ONLY.

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Please keep a watchful eye and create the awareness in anyone trying to breed albinos of the potential for this problem to happen.

Thanks.

With the spelling in that ad, I'd be more willing to bet on a scammer mislabeling his stock to get more money.

Steven,

Yes, although I don't believe this to be the case. There are pictures of both the male and the female. The male even showing the eye problems.

Regards.

I didn't see the pictures so I couldn't verify my opinion of which strain it appeared to be. It does seem rather quick to be seeing deformed sharp strain albinos on the market though. And choosing the rarer of the two to sell it as is a marketing point. Why buy a common deformed albino when you can get a rare chance at the new kid on the block, even if it is deformed.

There is no doubt they are Sharp's, and in my opinion the ad is legit.

Thanks.

Would it be better for breeders to sell hets or albinos for that matter as singles instead of a price for pairs? Selling them as singles would promote people to buy singles from multiple people and help mix the blood lines out there instead of making or atleast promoting buying related pairs for future breeding.

Would it be better for breeders to sell hets or albinos for that matter as singles instead of a price for pairs?

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Ideally, yes.
The problem that is run into is females are, in the vast majority of cases, easier to sell than males. For instance you'll sell 1.2 much faster as a group than you will 2.1.
Breeders are often worried about getting stuck with a bunch of males, so to offset that possibility they require a male to be purchased with a female. You see this very often with snakes such as womas where there is a significant price difference between the sexes.
I did this myself for a long time, since it was the regular practice, but I finally realized I was inadvertantly encouraging inbreeding. If someone bought a pair from me I felt in many cases since they had a pair, they wouldn't bother getting another pair from another breeder for unrelated bloodlines.

I did come to a compromise on the issue for species where I have not yet acquired sufficiently diverse bloodlines. I price the sexes individually, but single females are more expensive than single males. I have found this results in several things happening. People that want an additional unrelated female for their colony can have one, and people who just want a pet snake will often opt for the less expensive single male. Of course the single pet issue would rarely apply with something like albino boas.

A responsible breeder however will avoid the issue entirely by having a diverse collection himself. If you have 2.2 unrelated breeders at a minimum, you can offer unrelated pairs. Going a step further and maintaining 4.4 unrelated individuals allows you to provide a founding colony of 2.2 unrelated specimens entirely from your own stock.
With the morphs, this is of course more difficult due to both the expense and the inherent lack of diversity in the bloodlines to begin with.
Breeders should do everything they can though to provide unrelated animals, and if they cannot then they shouldn't require the purchase of pairs.
Some try to take the cheap route and buy one founding male, make some hets and breed them back to the father, never adding any additional blood. Their offspring are already the products of related breedings, and are then sold as pairs to other prospective breeders.
The first priority for a breeder should always be to diversify their stock. Buy another animal, or trade offspring with another breeder whose lines aren't related to yours.

The person buying the siblings does bear some of the responsibility of the resulting inbreeding of course, but so does the initial breeder if he has made no effort to prevent it himself.
I do believe that eventually buyers will become more educated on these issues and begin requiring unrelated stock whenever possible. Once this happens, the breeders will begin to put more effort into building breeding colonies rather than pairs, so they can satisfy the buyers needs.

Currenlty in Reptibid

The quote below is from an ad of a pair of boas that are up for sale in Reptibid (see picture)

US $ 1000.00 (Reserve not met)

Time left: 1 Day 9 Hrs+
Started: Mon Apr 26, 09:17 PM
Ends: Mon May 10, 09:17 PM

Bids: 7 (bid history) (Started:US $ 500.00)

High bidder: Mfwoole (feedback 16 ) )



Location: Las Vegas, NV


Seller information

Towertsk (feedback 0 ) )
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Payment Options: PayPal, Personal Check, Money Order Shipping Terms: Buyer Pays Origin: Captive Born

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I have 1 albino and 1 het that are unsexed with 1 bad eye each. Good Luck bidding




I have 1 albino and 1 het that are unsexed with 1 bad eye each. Good Luck bidding
Added by the Seller on Thu Apr 29, 09:33 PM:
Albino Boa just shed and it is a Female. Thanks
Added by the Seller on Fri Apr 30, 06:41 PM:
Reserve has been MET. Thanks
Added by the Seller on Sun May 02, 07:27 PM:
The Het is a MALE. So you are bidding on a pair 1.1 Thanks

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Here is part of the Q & A that is taking place right now:

Has the eye condition been addressed by a qualified reptile or exotic veterinarian? Were these eye problems caused by an external source or are they genetic maladies that these animals had when born?

Response on this item from (seller): Towertsk
Post on: Tue Apr 27, 10:21 AM
Sorry I dont have a buy it now option. The eye condition has not been checked by a vet they were born like that. Thanks

Question about this item from (buyer):
Post on: Fri May 07, 06:27 AM
The eye thing is obviously genetic if a couple have this problem out of a litter(probably inbreeding).

Response on this item from (seller): Towertsk
Post on: Fri May 07, 10:00 AM
Buyer why don't you put your username. Hmmmm is it because you dont know what you are talking about. The father (Albino) is bought directly from Pete Kahl early 2002 and the mother (het albino) was bought from a local breeder in 2000 so I don't think it is because of inbreeding.

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What the seller doesn't understand is that because he is not line-breeding his two animals there is still a good likelihood that it is indeed a genetic deffect and that he has it in his animals.

What still puzzles me is why some people are still bidding on these animals. I also wonder who these "mfwoole" is, who always starts bidding with $500.

Regards.

I saw that ad the other day and was bothered by the fact that they were being sold as a 1.1 pair giving the impression that the buyer could breed them in the future and possibly continue this trait/deformity with clutches where BOTH parents are missing eyes.
I do not personally belive that the one eyed albinos and hets should be bred at all because of the possibility of continuing this trait (if it could be passed).
Maybe sell them at a serious discount seperatly as pets but not a pair of them with the impression that they should be bred to eachother.

Does anyone else think that they should not be bred at all?
OR
Do you think that if they are bred to unrelated snakes, the deformity will go away?

Does anyone else think that they should not be bred at all?

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They should not be bred, no doubt about it. The fact is that this "breeder" has at least two animals from his litter showing the anomaly is a clear indication that his breeders carry the genetic deffect.

He is selling the pair for at least $1,000. It might seem a good deal but it is definitely not. He is "cleaning" his stock by selling them at a discount price in Reptibid. The problem is that once he sells all the defective individuals the rest of his animals will look flawless, and they will be priced as such.

Do you think that if they are bred to unrelated snakes, the deformity will go away?

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Eventually. But who knows how many years of breeding it might take before you reach to that point.

Related to this, would it be safer to buy albinos born to a pair of double hetero for sunglows than from a pair of straight albinos? My thought behind it is that an albino was bred to a salmon/hypo to produce the DH. That in itself is outbreeding.

Regards.

alvaro said:

Related to this, would it be safer to buy albinos born to a pair of double hetero for sunglows than from a pair of straight albinos? My thought behind it is that an albino was bred to a salmon/hypo to produce the DH. That in itself is outbreeding.

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I would think that would be the same as buying an albino that was bred from a pair of hets. There is a discussion on RTB similar to this that it was stated that most breeders do not breed albino x albino because of the problems that are encountered with the clutch versus albino x het or het x het.

Originally from RTB forum posted by Clay English
Well I think the truth of the matter is that albino to albino breedings are just not all that successful. I think there are just more inherit problems with the albino to albino pairings. I have produced albinos, but only from het breedings, but I know several who have definately produced more albinos from het pairings (ie albino to het or het to het) than with albino to albino pairings.

And it is true that most of the deformities are from albino to albino breedings or from multiple line inbreedings... Although I do NOT believe the oneeye/no eye baby traits are "passed" as in genetically, from one-eyed adults to the babies.. I just think the weak gene to weak gene pool breedings produce these.

I think that it is more simply the fact that in normal boas that carry the amelanistic recessive gene (heterozygous), we have solid, strong genetic boas that just have a "recessive" gene... so the het breedings tend to produce healthier litters, healthier albinos.. whereas in albinos the "weak" gene is now evident in the parent, so now the pairing is weaker genetically already.. Could be the reason a lot of albino to albino litters are all slugs, mostly slugs, or produce deformed babies...

Interesting to me for sure and I am sure there is a ton of scientific information on amelanism and it could be explained much better, but I based this post on talking with Jeff Ronne and Pete Kahl..

I will breed albino to het for sure... Will I ever try albino to albino? I don't think so... I would much rather go with albino to hypo or albino to pastel.. That's just me though

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JJFOUTZ said:

I would think that would be the same as buying an albino that was bred from a pair of hets.

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I should have said that it would be the same as buying an albino that was bred from UNRELATED hets.

just posting what Jeff Ronne

has told me





From : Jeff Ronne/The Boaphile <[email protected]>
Sent : Monday, August 23, 2004 7:52 PM
To : "'jahaira haney'" <[email protected]>
CC : "'Joel R DuBay Sr'" <[email protected]>
Subject : RE: pastels

| | | Inbox


I have written a detailed explanation about Pastels you can feel free to
read if you like. It is really long and detailed but will answer all of
your questions and more:

http://www.theboaforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=boapics1;action=di
splay;num=1050880714

Albinos are prone to these infections that cause the eye problems but I
would not say it is genetic. I have had babies with the bad eyes but
treat them with a very small amount of Antibiotic which seems to work
most of the time.

Thank you,

Jeff

-----Original Message-----



im not arguing with anyone just stating what i was told and do not want a pi**ing match because i will not participate just trying to post some new info to me

JJFOUTZ said:

Do you think that if they are bred to unrelated snakes, the deformity will go away?

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If it's genetic, no. First, you cannot find an unrelated Kahl strain albino, they are all bred down from the founding male. If that male carried the gene for the deformity, all albinos would be possible carriers for the gene. If you breed a snake with the deformity, what you will produce will be hets for the deformity, essentially. (Not all deformities are simple recessives, but plenty are, and it seems to be the case with the one eyed albinos.) So, it won't go away. Those "hets" will always stand a chance to hit against another "het" for one-eyed. Further back in this thread, I mentioned one method used by livestock breeders to see if an animal is free of a genetic defect: line breed back to the animal for at least nine generations. I don't see that happening with boas to prove a snake free of the gene, as it'd take far too much time. On the other hand, if the gene was present, it'd probably pop up a lot sooner than nine generations of linebreeding. (Or back breeding? Forgot the term for exactly that kind of inbreeding.)

Anyway, the best you can hope for if there is a gene for one-eyed snakes in the albino bloodlines is to reduce the number of hets for it by out crossing. They will still crop up, though. Ideally, snakes found to produce the one eyed defect shoudl be retired from breeding and removed from the captive gene pool, but I don't think enough breeders are responsible in the matter to do so when they can sell the non-defective offspring for a high profit.

Albinos are prone to these infections that cause the eye problems but I
would not say it is genetic. I have had babies with the bad eyes but
treat them with a very small amount of Antibiotic which seems to work
most of the time.

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Daniel,

It could also very well be the other way around, that is the eye problems (which debilitate the cornea and other tissues) could end up in infections.

Thanks

Part two of the following link describes several of the eye problems seen in albino boas. It starts with the following statements:

2. Albinism

Albinism is one of the most common forms of inherited visual impairment. A wide spectrum of genetic variants exist, many of which have associated metabolic or central nervous system anomalies, most commonly hearing impairment.

Anatomically, albinos exhibit excess decussation of optic nerve fibers at the chiasm with temporal retinal fibers that normally remain ipsilateral crossing to the contralateral geniculate body. This anomalous wiring limits binocularity as well as accuracy of fixation and pursuits.(5)

It is characterized by varying degrees of amelanosis due to a deficiency of the enzyme tyrosinase.

Ocular complications - Level of visual impairment is dependent on the degree of severity of these five factors:
Amelanosis of the iris and retina
Nystagmus
Foveal hypoplasia
Strabismus and impaired binocular vision
Astigmatism

Classification of Albinism:

Albinism occurs in two primary types, oculocutaneous and ocular. There are many genetic variants of oculocutaneous albinism in which both skin and eyes are affected. Most of of these variants are inherited in an autosomal recessive pattern.(5) However, the most useful division of oculocutaneous albinism for the eye care practitioner is based on the expression of the gene for the enzyme tyrosine because the degree of ocular involvement is tied to the deficiency of tyrosine and corresponding amelanosis.

Oculocutaneous Albinism:
1. Tyrosinase-Negative
The most severe form in which there is complete absence of pigment. Foveal light reflex is absent (complete foveal hypoplasia).
Nystagmus is moderate to severe.
Acuity is usually 20/200 or less.

2. Tyrosinase-Positive
Characterized by varying degrees of amelanosis.
Foveal hypoplasia and nystagmus is not as severe as T-Negative.
Acuity is usually better than 20/200.



Anterior segment presentation of a young black with oculocutaneous albinism



Fundus of the same patient.

Ocular Albinism:

X-linked recessive inheritance

Affected males have normal skin and hair pigment but show varying degrees of ocular depigmentation.

Visual acuity lies in the 20/40 to 20/100 range. (Correlates with the amount of pigment and nystagmus.)

Mother's eyes are affected. (Subclinical presentation.)

Some presentations of ocular albinism, especially in darkly pigmented individuals, can be easily missed because there is no iris transillumination and the fundus appears nearly normal. Slightly reduced acuity and mild nystagmus may be the only observable signs.

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In my opinion this puts an end to a lot of the speculation about if it's genetic or not. It is and it's inherited as a recessive characteristic associated with the "X" chromosome.

http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/COPE7522/ImpairmentPeds.html

Regards