ShipYourReptiles.com

I don't know if I should put this on the BOI, so mods, feel free to move if you feel it is necessary.

This is going to be long, so bare with me...



At this point and time I will not be offering shipping through ShipYourReptiles.com. I have had two instances regarding shipping with UPS that are a serious concern to me. I need to provide my customers with the safest, most reliable shipping option available and at this time we do not believe UPS is a good fit.

INSTANCE ONE

My first shipment using SYR and UPS, the package was misplaced here in Pennsylvania. Luckily the snake was not going to a customer, but out on breeding loan. She took two days to arrive to her location even though she was just going a few states south. She did arrive in good health and our shipping fees were refunded by SYR, but lost packages (particularly when they contain live animals) are unacceptable to me. Shipping is stressful enough without the added worry of a company delivering packages 1-2 days beyond there scheduled delivery date.

INSTANCE TWO

Instance two happened just this past week and is far more of a serious matter then a single shipment arriving a day late. I was to receive a group of 10 ball pythons from a close friend who is to start Army boot camp next week. They were to arrive on Wednesday, however on Tuesday a phone call was made from the UPS Store the snakes were dropped off at…The UPS Store had opened the box and was refusing to ship the snakes because it is against UPS policy. The box was marked Live Harmless Reptiles which is acceptable labeling per F&W. Our only guess as to why they opened the box was that they were curious if their actually were reptiles in it.

We all know that it is against UPS standard policy, but I had been led to believe that SYR had received an exemption to ship snakes under their account. No documents have been provided showing SYR’s exemption to this policy. I am specifically looking for an official UPS document that gives users of SYR permission to ship snakes and can be included with each and every shipment to prevent problems.

SYR handled the situation quickly and apologized for the problem. A representative from SYR (Walt) scheduled a pickup at the shippers location for the following day (Wednesday) with the same tracking number. On Wednesday the snakes were picked up without a concern, however the tracking number had been flagged from the day before and as soon as it was scanned at the UPS facility it was stopped, opened and refused. It should be noted that with this shipping attempt, I advised the shipper to relabel the package to say just Wildlife which again, is completely acceptable by F&W. I was hoping it would prevent the package from being flagged. Messages were left on the shippers phone notifying her that if she did not retrieve her snakes by 10pm EST they would be turned over to Animal Control. Sadly the shipper did not receive the messages until the animals had already been turned over to Animal Control.

The shipper paid a $162 fee and picked up the 10 snakes from Animal Control Thursday afternoon (they were unavailable for pickup until 2pm EST). The snakes at this time appear no worse for wear from their stressful ordeal. We are attempting a final attempt at shipment on Monday and do not plan on using SYR again.

ShipYourReptiles.com has refunded the shipping fees and has agreed to provide a reimbursement for the Animal Control fees. While SYR's response to the situation is appreciated, it doesn't make what UPS did ok. In my opinion, they should seriously consider providing a way to decrease the chances of this happening again, to anyone. Again, I think the best thing for them to do is to provide an official UPS document that gives users of SYR permission to ship snakes and can be included with each and every shipment.

Another concern is that SYR had mentioned to the shipper that they will look for an alternative hub for her to ship from. I don't understand why an alternative hub would be needed if SYR has a UPS exemption to ship snakes?

We have not yet been provided an official, solid explanation as to why this happened or how it will be prevented by SYR in the future. This is ultimately why we will not send or receive snakes through UPS; we can not and will not risk the safety of our animals.

While every time we ship out an animal we are taking a risk, it is our responsibility to minimize that risk as best we can.

With that, I'll end this post and say I hope SYR gets this together quickly...The program has potential...

That's such a shame to hear. I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience. Thanks for posting this, I was considering using SYR for an upcoming clutch and have decided against it.

I recently used "ship your reptiles" and was completely happy with the service. I don't think your complaint is so much with that company as it is with UPS. All SYR is doing is allowing people to use their account with the permission of UPS. What a few dumbass UPS employees do is out of SYR's control. I think they went above and beyond by paying the animal control fee. I am not saying this thread is unwarranted, I just feel that is should be against UPS and not SYR.

Chris Canada-Smith

this thread stirs my curiosity.
Has UPS actually agreed to allow snakes or not? If so I can see how the old policys might still be on the minds of their employees, but if not we would still be shipping against the UPS TOS and putting our animals at risk.
I do hope someone from SYR can come on here and lets us know the straight skinny.

I have read on other forums that it is still up to the individual hub or drop off customer service center to refuse or accept our reptiles. That they are individually owned. That may be why they were trying to find a new shipping place for your snakes.
TripleMoon, I am in Gettysburg, which location did you use that you had problems with? I have used the one on Old Harrisburg Rd here in Gettysburg without issue. Mine are not snakes however. I know that would be too much travel for you, just a thought though.

IMO I think it would be a lot easier if there was a nuber for the hubs to call to get the OK to ship our reptiles AND paperwork we could print out to put on the box. If each hub could call the main office and the main office said yes we are now shipping snakes it would be so much easier.

I wanted to clarify that UPS does not permit the shipping of snakes but does permit the shipping of other nonvenomous reptiles. SYR would be a great option for those who ship the legged variety of reptiles.

UPS is following their policy. I really can't complain about UPS refusing the packages when it is their policy to refuse snakes. However, I was under the impression that under the SYR account we could ship snakes...UPS says this is not true. As far as I'm concerned SYR was responsible for the Animal Control fee because they told us we could ship snakes.

The UPS hubs are not privately owned, they are UPS. The UPS Store is individually owned which I didn't know until Robyn posted the information on another forum. I understand that The UPS Store has the authority to open our package and refuse it, that's fine. The shipper would not have dropped the package off at The UPS Store if she had this information from the start. My entire point is that I was under the impression the we could ship snakes.

I am the receiver of these snakes, not the shipper...They are coming in from Missouri. I recommended to my friend to use ShipYourReptiles.com because she is not FedEx Certified and I had thought it would be a good option. I feel guilty for the aggravation and frustration this situation has caused her.

Either way, this is not a bad guy thread. This thread was posted to provide our experience with UPS and SYR. Everyone will have to take the information as is and make a decision for themselves whether or not to take the risk. Until something is done to correct this problem, we will not use it. I sincerely hope that this gets corrected so we can pick up shipping with them again.

TripleMoonsExotic said:

I As far as I'm concerned SYR was responsible for the Animal Control fee because they told us we could ship snakes.

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I agree. But I also feel that is one is in the biz of shipping reptiles 'Ship Your Reptiles' one should do enough research to make sure that is possible. This is not some ancillary detail, this was central to the whole shipping transaction.

I agree with you Stephanie that you made a good choice to back off on using this company and wait until this is all ironed out so that no snakes are put at risk.

I think my opinion of the company rides on what they do now, after this event.

So far, so good.

I just shipped my Red x Blue Tegu from FL to MA using SYR. I am not a verified live animal shipper so I used SYR services. I packed up the box and went to my local UPS store.
I told them that I was not authorized to ship animals and would need to use the new service that UPS and SYR were providing to the reptile community. They had not heard of it, but pulled up the SYR website and even let me use their computer to set up my account with SYR, and then printed out my shipping label right there.
My experience was all good.

FedEx will often do the same thing. How many complaints have people had with them refusing shipments if they actually know what's in that box? I've heard of them turning shipments away even WITH a copy of the waiver available. I am bound to write the contents on the box, but until someone shows me where it has to be in huge print I'm writing it on there in tiny lettering that is inconspicuous. With as many employees as both companies have and the turnover rates they tend to have, it can be tough to make sure everyone is familiar with policies. Especially when a new policy has come about for just one companies' shipping needs. (SYR) For everyone else out there, it's still no snakes. Having been on that side of the industry, I can understand where they're coming from. The policy has always been no snakes and it's going to take a while perhaps to get the word down to the lowest levels that this ONE company is okay for an exemption. Shipping reptiles isn't exactly a huge business for them.

I don't see this as SYR's fault, it's UPS doing a poor job of getting the word out to all their hubs. That SYR is refunding the shipping and animal control fees shows they are willing to step up and make things right.

I have a shipment coming up, and plan to use SYR for it. I just don't see "bad guy" when I look at them or their practices.

So What.

On a side note:
I would use SYR again to ship other animals, but I'm not sure that I would be comfortable shipping a snake with them(UPS.) Maybe if I spoke to the people at my drop off location but IDK, what if any other Hub that the shipment had to pass through took issue with it?

SYR is providing a great service for us and I hope that they can get the shipping of snakes worked out with UPS. If not maybe they can talk with FedEX about handling the shipping of snakes for them.

MagickalMorphs said:

FedEx will often do the same thing. How many complaints have people had with them refusing shipments if they actually know what's in that box? I've heard of them turning shipments away even WITH a copy of the waiver available.

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I can honestly say, in 6 years of shipping with FedEx, hundreds of packages...I've had one problem. A weather delay which caused a gecko to arrive two days after the scheduled due date (the gecko tragically died in transit). Weather delays are of no fault of the carrier, so I don't really count that against them.

MagickalMorphs said:

I don't see this as SYR's fault, it's UPS doing a poor job of getting the word out to all their hubs. That SYR is refunding the shipping and animal control fees shows they are willing to step up and make things right.

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SYR has stated that UPS isn't going to "get the word out" because they did not change company policy. Confusing stuff, but at this time, from what I understand, UPS isn't changing anything or letting anyone know anything.



Again, this is just what my decision is at this time. I can not go through this situation again and I sure as heck won't put my customers through it. I hope, hope, hope this gets straightened out and quickly...Hatching season is just around the corner!

The only package I ever took to a FedEx hub was refused, even with my waiver copy. From there on out, I have used pickups exclusively even though it does mean a bit more time in transit for the animals and have had no problems.

I'm not saying you didn't have a bad experience. I'd be aggravated as well. I'm just saying that from my point of view it's not all on SYR. I'm rooting for it to be smoothed out as well. I'm tired of paying FedEx so much for their sloppy service.

Color me confused...

I find this whole situation quite confusing...

According to SYR's website:
"You can ship anything that UPS allows. UPS is pretty accommodating, but they do not allow hazardous or illegal materials, and they have restrictions on live animals.

You cannot ship illegal drugs, batteries, liquor, aerosols, firearms and ammunition, fireworks, explosives, mammals (no dogs, no cats), birds, and absolutely no venomous reptiles.

ShipYourReptiles.com is approved for the shipping of live reptiles. You must follow the ShipYourReptiles.com Shipping Standards.

For more details, check out UPS’ page on Packaging and Supplies."

So according to that statement you CANNOT ship snakes because UPS specifically states that you can't.

From the UPS Shipping guidelines on Live Animals:
"UPS provides service on a limited basis for packages containing some types of live animals. The term "animal" as used herein refers to anything living, except plants. While the list of "Accepted Live Animals" provided herein is an exhaustive list of animals that can be offered for transportation in accordance with the conditions listed, the list of "Prohibited Live Animals" is only a partial list of animals provided to clarify specific species that are not accepted for transportation and may not be shipped via UPS. Any animal not specifically listed on the "Accepted Live Animals" list is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation.
Packages containing live animals must be prepared in accordance with the requirements as specifically stated herein. Packages containing live animals must provide for the basic humane care and safety of the animal during transportation. Any package containing a live animal shall be considered a perishable commodity and will be accepted for transportation solely at the shipper´s risk for any damage or loss arising from the perishable nature of the item. UPS shall not be liable for any special, incidental, or consequential damages.

In the event a package containing a prohibited item is found en route or in the UPS system, that package will be stopped at the location or UPS facility of the discovery. UPS reserves the right to dispose of the package.


Endangered or Threatened Species

In addition to the Prohibited Live Animals list provided here, any live animal that is an Endangered Species is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation. Shippers must refer to the list posted on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Web site, and the Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants 50 CFR 17.11 and 17.12, December 1999 (pdf file).

Service Type

Live animals will only be accepted for transportation when shipped via UPS Next Day Air service, and such shipments will only be accepted Monday through Thursday.

Packaging

Design and Construction of the Primary Container: All live animals offered for transportation must be in a new box. Corrugated boxes must be constructed of a minimum of 275 # bursting strength corrugated or 44 edge crush test. It is recommended that any package containing animals requiring moisture during transportation be constructed of water-resistant material such as wax coated, wax impregnated, or plastic corrugated. Minimal ventilation holes should be provided as necessary.

Internal Packaging and Other Considerations: Internal packaging materials must be used based on the characteristics of the animal, taking into consideration the necessary humane care for the animal while in transportation. Lizards and geckos should be individually contained in bags constructed of breathable material, such as burlap. Insects should be contained in individual primary containers such as plastic jars with ventilation. Fish must be double bagged in strong plastic bags with a minimum thickness of 4 mils. Each primary bag should be approximately one third full of water with the remainder filled with oxygen.

Package Testing: Any packaging used or developed to transport animals should be submitted to an International Safe Transit Association (ISTA) certified package testing laboratory for pre-shipment testing in accordance with ISTA Procedure 3A before being offered for transportation.

Additional Considerations: Additional components such as food, moisture, and temperature controls should be added as necessary to provide a safe environment during transportation. Additional dunnage should be added to prevent movement of the primary containers or receptacles within the outer box.

Accepted / Prohibited Live Animals

Accepted Live Animals

This is a comprehensive list of live animals accepted for transportation. Shippers are prohibited from shipping any animal not listed here, and all other live animals will not be accepted for transportation. The following live animals are accepted for transportation unless poisonous, venomous, and/or a Threatened or Endangered Species.


Amphibians (All): Examples: frogs, salamanders, toads
Crustaceans (All): Examples: crabs, crawfish, lobsters, shrimp
Fish (All)
Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only): Examples: bees, butterflies, crickets, lady bugs
Mollusks (All): Examples: clams, mussels, snails
Reptiles (Limited to the following):
- Lizards: Examples: chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors, flying dragons
- Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises, sea turtlesWorms (All)

Prohibited Live Animals

Live Animals that are prohibited from being shipped and are not accepted for transportation include, but are not limited to:


Any poisonous, venomous or threatening animal
Any Threatened or Endangered species
Arachnids (All): Examples: mites, scorpions, spiders, ticks
Birds (All)
Crocodiles (All): Examples: alligators, caimans, gavials
Mammals (All)
Obnoxious Insects: Examples: flies, locusts, mosquitoes, roaches, termites, weevils
Snakes (All): venomous and non-venomous

Sources:
http://www.shipyourreptiles.com/en/get_help/get_help_shipping_tracking/#question-24
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/animals.html

I know I'm confused.
If you watch their video and read posts made online, they say it's fine. I really don't know anything other then what I've read, what they've said to me in e-mail and on the phone. I also know that nothing has ever been provided showing that they have an exemption. So you got me!



I've actually never went to a hub to drop off. I have a privately owned "Postal Plus" that I just drop all of my shipments off at about 30 minutes before the driver gets there.

We all know that it is against UPS standard policy, but I had been led to believe that SYR had received an exemption to ship snakes under their account. No documents have been provided showing SYR’s exemption to this policy. I am specifically looking for an official UPS document that gives users of SYR permission to ship snakes and can be included with each and every shipment to prevent problems.

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Yes please!

i ship alot of live fish and ive found it to work better if you use a plain box and if they need documentation of enclosed item i use the scientific names because most ppl will not know what it is lol.

TINY28 said:

i ship alot of live fish and ive found it to work better if you use a plain box and if they need documentation of enclosed item i use the scientific names because most ppl will not know what it is lol.

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Legally, you must at a minimum label the outside of the package with "Wildlife" and include a a detailed packing list or invoice stating the common name and quantity of the contents. If you do not do this you are breaking the federal Lacey Act and 50 CFR 14. I'm not completely familiar with fish shipping, so I would advise you to closely look at these two documents.

Update...

It is apparent to me that SYR will not be answering my concerns in relation to this particular shipment (or the "no snakes" rule in general). No proof has been provided that they are in fact exempt from UPS's "no snakes" policy and my questions were completely ignored. SYR also failed to contact Char with an alternative shipping suggestion or follow through with the reimbursement of the animal control fees. She shipped out last night for Army boot camp. Sorry to see it turn out this way, but I really don't know what else there is to say.

Me Apr 23 said:

Walt, I need some questions answered about this shipment and I would prefer the correspondence remain in writing.

1) In detail, please explain why this shipment was pulled /again/ if SYR has an exemption to ship snakes.

2) Please explain why this shipment can not go through the St. Joe hub. If SYR was approved to ship snakes, this should have been cleared with the hub.

I may have more questions later, but this is all I have thought of so far.

Thanks!

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Walt @ SYR Apr 24 said:

Stephanie,

I appreciate your concern regarding Charlene’s shipment. All Pro Shipping, Inc. and ShipYourReptiles.com are responding to Ms. Dourty’s needs in this matter and extending as much assistance as we can possibly deliver to her as a valued customer.

We apologize for any inconvenience to you as the recipient of this shipment. Charlene indicated that the purpose of consignment is to hand over caring for her reptiles during her deployment for military service. We recognize the importance to her of succeeding in this endeavor and are making every attempt to overcome obstacles, which are completely out of our control.

Based on your numerous negative comments on various forums, voice messages and e-mail to me, I have to assume that you are concerned over the value of our services in meeting your specific shipping needs. You of course are completely free not to use ShipYourReptiles.com thus totally alleviating those concerns.

We are committed to our customers within the reptile community and believe that by working together ensuring appropriate guidelines for shipping at a reasonable cost and working through occasional challenges, we can make a difference for all committed breeders and hobbyists.

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Now, the emails he referenced above are ones I sent as a follow up to a single phone message (not multiple as he implies above) about how he advised Char to not label her shipment and blamed that as a reason why The UPS Store refused the initial shipment. You're darn straight I called him on advising someone to break the law. Now, in his defense, he told me he did not say this and Char misunderstood. It is a he said she said issue, so I really can't say much on it.

Me Apr 21 said:

This is a follow up e-mail to the call I made to you regarding my concern of you advising Charlene to ship illegally. Please follow the attached links to download the information from the US Department of Fish & Wildlife about the labeling requirements for wildlife imported, exported and transported in the United States. I am extremely concerned that you are advising shippers to break the law.

Lacey Act:
http://triplemoonsexotic.com/pdf/laceyact.pdf

50 CFR 14:
http://triplemoonsexotic.com/pdf/50CFR14-10-2008.pdf

Specifically you should pay attention to this particular excerpt from 50 CFR 14 that states:

<---- Quote from 50 CFR 14 removed because it's long. If you want to read it, the PDF is at the URL above ---->

Obviously Option One applies to shipping via FedEx/UPS and the others reference import/export and the airlines.

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Walt @ SYR Apr 21 said:

Stephanie,

Thank you for your e-mail. I attempted to contact both you and Charlene by phone to discuss this further. We sincerely appreciate your business and I am concerned at the initial impression I clearly left in attempting to resolve a customer service issue.

First I want to clearly state that I am absolutely not asking Charlene or anyone to violate any state or federal laws or statutes in using our shipping services. We encourage everyone to label their shipments; as they believe is necessary and appropriate for their animal. My concern and I may have misunderstood, was Charlene is using a container which, references live snakes. In light of her being turned away from the UPS store, I assumed this was the reason.

We have taken great pains in attempting to provide clear and conscious guidelines in properly packaging and shipping reptiles to ensure a safe and secure journey for the animal our customers will be shipping by using our services.

These guidelines and the compliance of our customers in following these guidelines is the basis for the letter of accord between UPS and All Pro Shipping, Inc. and ShipYourReptiles.com to ship non-venomous snakes in addition to what is specifically outlined in the UPS tariff for non-snake reptiles.

Please don’t hesitate to call me direct if you have any questions or concerns. I again apologize for any concern I caused in this matter.

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Me Apr 21 said:

Good evening, Walt...

I couldn't get to the phone when you called, my apologies.

My greatest concern was that Charlene's impression of the conversation was that you wished her to ship "under the radar" by not marking her shipment properly. If this was not the case, then I am relieved to hear it. This is of course not a matter of how an individual wants to label a package, but what is required by federal law. I obviously have not seen the box yet, so I can not say one way or another how it was initially labeled...But did provide Charlene with the necessary information on how to label the shipment properly via the law.

What also concerns me is your website does not provide the federal labeling requirements but instead says Box should be labeled “Perishable" (http://www.shipyourreptiles.com/en/get_help/get_help_shipping_standards/#question-18) which does not meet the federal labeling requirement. You may want to look into revising your information in the shipping guidelines so your customers are in compliance with the law.

I hope that the shipment is sent out tomorrow without further mishap. I have sent one package via SYR UPS that was misplaced and now this second time I use SYR UPS (being the receiver this time) they refuse the package!

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Again, I must stress that it is against UPS's policy to ship snakes (non-venomous lizards and amphibians are fine), period. Do not get frustrated or angry with UPS's employees because they are doing their job. Do not sacrifice your animals health and safety to save a few bucks. If this happened to us, it could happen to anyone that ships snakes.

SYR makes a point to say "What you do affects the entire reptile hobby and industry." They are 100% right. So why is SYR violating current UPS policy?

My fingers are crossed that this gets works out and corrected. I would love to offer this shipping option to my customers.

Additional problem threads provided to me by other concerned individuals:

• Reptile Radio
• Reptile Insider

Whoops! Forgot an e-mail!

This is my e-mail in response to the response from Walt on April 24th trying again to get my questions answered. I have not received any response.

Walt Apr 24 said:

Evening Walt,

I am not concerned in the least with SYR's customer service as it has been wonderful. What I am concerned with is my questions being disregarded. Questions and concerns that are essential to those of us who ship snakes.

As for the forum posts, I have a right to post as I please within the guidelines of a particular forum. Being that UPS has presented multiple shipping issues and is repeatably telling me and others that we can not ship snakes even if we ship under the SYR account, what do you think is going to happen? I wanted this to succeed. I had posted on my website that we would be using SYR as an additional option for customers and I had to pull that information for now (currently I only am working with snakes, so I cannot ship within UPS's policy at this time).

I feel immensely guilty for putting Char through this because based on my suggestion (even though I had already had one negative shipment) she attempted to ship with you (or UPS, however you would like to look at it).

I am recommending that anyone that is shipping snakes not use UPS until this is corrected. Until policy changes or their is some way for SYR to provide paperwork to include with shipments, I see this happening again with shipments that contain snakes. This wasn't something to be taken lightly and I feel that it's not be taken seriously. What would have happened if the snakes would have been stopped and confiscated at a hub half way between our locations? That is a very scary thought to me as their would be no way for them to be retrieved.

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