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L.t.micropholis discussion

Lamor

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Does anybody in the US or Europe that reads this forum have L.t.micropholis the south american coastal milksnake. I would like to hear about potential breeding projects or if you have reproduced this subspecies yet.

a few pics of mine below.

Please contact me
blamor
 
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Does anybody in the US or Europe that reads this forum have L.t.micropholis the south american coastal milksnake. I would like to hear about potential breeding projects or if you have reproduced this subspecies yet.
As far as I know these are very rare in the hobby.
I thought Shannon Brown was working with some, but I am not sure.

They are almost as rare as L.t. dixoni.......I know of no one working with this ssp. and never seen any offered anywhere.......
 
I thought Shannon had sold his group but I am not for sure. When I worked for the Dallas Zoo in the 70s we had a specimen of Dixoni but never were able to pair it up. They seem to be a pretty hard ssp. to collect?

There used to be some Ecudorian micropholis in Europe a few years ago but I do not know if they are still around or ever were reproduced. That is why I invited European comments on this matter. I love the micropholis and had a nice Ecuadorian in 1972 purchased from Western Zoo right before Ecuador stopped exporting reptiles - to bad!

thanks for the response, do you have some dixoni, if so I would love to some pics.
 
I thought Shannon had sold his group but I am not for sure. When I worked for the Dallas Zoo in the 70s we had a specimen of Dixoni but never were able to pair it up. They seem to be a pretty hard ssp. to collect?

There used to be some Ecudorian micropholis in Europe a few years ago but I do not know if they are still around or ever were reproduced. That is why I invited European comments on this matter. I love the micropholis and had a nice Ecuadorian in 1972 purchased from Western Zoo right before Ecuador stopped exporting reptiles - to bad!

thanks for the response, do you have some dixoni, if so I would love to some pics.

I have no Dixoni, but I do have some nice Tapalpa, MX Ruthveni and Amealco, MX Ruthveni.......Both localities have some unique aberrancies and were both once thought to be Jalisco milksnakes......But are true F3 & F4 generation Ruthveni.....Pretty rare since they are 'het for nothing' Ruthveni and I plan on keeping it that way....
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talpfemale2.jpg

tapmale4.jpg

Also....A little off topic but I have a question.....Since you worked at the Dallas Zoo in the 70s...Do you remember anyone by the name of Robert Hunkapillar? How about Dave Blody?
 
those are a very nice group of Tapalpa mexicana.

I do know Dave Blody well and speak to him often. Robert I do not know or do not remember him for some reason. What year did he work at Dallas.
 
those are a very nice group of Tapalpa mexicana.

I do know Dave Blody well and speak to him often. Robert I do not know or do not remember him for some reason. What year did he work at Dallas.

Robert worked at the Ft. Worth Zoo (I believe) in the 70s.
And...I wish Dave would share some of his thayeri....LOL
 
Heck, many moons ago I got real interested in the taxonomy of the big triangulums and had a desire to get my hands on some micropholis (among others). Never had any luck. The only one I could find who had even HAD some recently was Ernie Wagner. And even then, he told me that the identification on them was rather "iffy". A lot of the importers at the time were getting these animals (central and south American triangulums) from whatever country was allowing exports at the time, but the animals themselves were being collected from all over Central and South America and then shipped to the export country of the day to be exported to the importers in the USA. So when they came in, the importers would label the animals based on what they LOOKED like, as they really had no idea of the actual origin of the animals.

I purchased absolutely every writing I could find about triangulums and the more I read about the "differences" between the various flavors of neotropical milk snakes, the more confusing it became.

It was right about then that I lost interest in the taxonomy of L.triangulum ssp. :rolleyes: I came to the conclusion that unless you went down there and collected them yourself and if there were such minor differences between the subspecies that just about no one could really tell one from the other without knowing the location source, then why bother?

Icing to that cake was when I saw so many aberrantly patterned Sinaloans magically become transformed to "Nelsoni" when the amelanistic nelsons hit the market. :rolleyes:

Not to try to take this too far off topic, but tell me, how come such minor differences in triangulums can justify subspecific status yet there are differences much more dramatic among the corn snakes and they are ALL considered as the same subspecies? What is the rule of thumb being used here?
 
Not much, first of all there is no geographic barriers to cause a subspecies to occur other than elevation and one can see that in Costa Rica specimens of gaigae show a gradual color change from tri-colored to tri-colored juveniles turning to black as one reaches the cool forests at the top of the mountains. Makes sence they would get darker to pick up more heat. I personnaly do not believe many of the ssp are valid on any group of specimens that just fade from 1 color pattern to another with no reason other than altitude. That is a gradual change and adaptation to climate. Therefore they are probably more aptly referred to as a clade. Thus this argument concerning micropholis color patterns as one goes from the North ex. east coast of Panama, swinging west to the coast of Colombia with great altituinal change from coast up to the top of the andeas and finally the specimens in Ecuador that exhibit what herpers have come to believe in Williams book as the "only" pattern a micropholis can exhibit in the entire very very large area of distribution.

Overall I choose to believe Bill Lamar who has collected more specimens from all altitudes in Colombia and has collecting data and scale counts on each specimen from the coast up to the top where said "andesiana" is said to occur.
Just my opinion.
 
There are no genuine("pure") micropholis to be offered in the United states that I, or any of the other Milk-head gurus in the hobby know of. The ones that were recently available (and sold as such) are actually micropholis x andesiana intergrades from the Popayan area. This is an intermediate elevation between the two subspecies. Scott Ballard, Shannon Brown, Nathan Wells, Jeff Hardwick and several others can also attest to this. When I first saw some of thesewhen they were introduced, I could see the andesiana influence they displayed immediately, and knew they could not be the "real deal". Kolks that are familiar with the meristics of the Latin American forms can see this rather easily. But they are cool snakes nonetheless, and they are what they are.

Scott Ballard told me about a genuine micropholis that was owned by a certain zoo years ago and the guy got rid of it because it bit him all the time..LOL!...geesh!

Now I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind being bitten by some genuine micropholis on a daily basis, as long as I could OWN them.


best regards, ~Doug
 
I thought Shannon had sold his group but I am not for sure. When I worked for the Dallas Zoo in the 70s we had a specimen of Dixoni but never were able to pair it up. They seem to be a pretty hard ssp. to collect?

There used to be some Ecudorian micropholis in Europe a few years ago but I do not know if they are still around or ever were reproduced. That is why I invited European comments on this matter. I love the micropholis and had a nice Ecuadorian in 1972 purchased from Western Zoo right before Ecuador stopped exporting reptiles - to bad!

thanks for the response, do you have some dixoni, if so I would love to some pics.

Wow!,...that is very cool that you had one back in the day!. Do you have any pics of it that you could post? I would LOVE to see it.

The best example of micropholis I have ever seen was the photo that Glenn Slemmer took that is featured in ~Systematics~ by Kenneth Williams. That thing is simply INSANE!


best regards, ~Doug
 
Heck, many moons ago I got real interested in the taxonomy of the big triangulums and had a desire to get my hands on some micropholis (among others). Never had any luck. The only one I could find who had even HAD some recently was Ernie Wagner. And even then, he told me that the identification on them was rather "iffy". A lot of the importers at the time were getting these animals (central and south American triangulums) from whatever country was allowing exports at the time, but the animals themselves were being collected from all over Central and South America and then shipped to the export country of the day to be exported to the importers in the USA. So when they came in, the importers would label the animals based on what they LOOKED like, as they really had no idea of the actual origin of the animals.

I purchased absolutely every writing I could find about triangulums and the more I read about the "differences" between the various flavors of neotropical milk snakes, the more confusing it became.

It was right about then that I lost interest in the taxonomy of L.triangulum ssp. :rolleyes: I came to the conclusion that unless you went down there and collected them yourself and if there were such minor differences between the subspecies that just about no one could really tell one from the other without knowing the location source, then why bother?

Icing to that cake was when I saw so many aberrantly patterned Sinaloans magically become transformed to "Nelsoni" when the amelanistic nelsons hit the market. :rolleyes:

Not to try to take this too far off topic, but tell me, how come such minor differences in triangulums can justify subspecific status yet there are differences much more dramatic among the corn snakes and they are ALL considered as the same subspecies? What is the rule of thumb being used here?

"Icing to that cake was when I saw so many aberrantly patterned Sinaloans magically become transformed to "Nelsoni" when the amelanistic nelsons hit the market"

No doubt Rich. That is around the time that I acquired that SUPER nice(real-deal) genuine nelsoni from you in Ft. Lauderdale many years ago. That male was probably the nicest text-book example of one that I, or any of the other mik-head guru's I know have ever seen.

As you mentioned, many of these, and many other milks can be a "hodge-podge" of mixed lineage. I just laugh when I see so-called amel "sinaloae" for sale now days.....what a joke that is.

When I point out excellent examples of these snakes to people that are very used to seeing mediocre, intermediate examples, they are blown away at the big difference that there is between the different types.

Oh, by the way Rich, when I talked to you at Daytona this year, you said you would try to look at your records to see where/how you acquired that nice specimen, so I could take note of it's history. If you could do this, it would be greatly appreciated.

I bought the hatchling nelsoni from you at the Furn Forest Nature Center in Margate Florida(basically Ft. Lauderdale) around 95 or 96. This should help with finding some records on it hopefully.

thanks!, ~Doug Mong
 
After talking to Scott Ballard on the phone today about some things, he also reminded me again that the person that got bitten by the micro, and got rid of it shortly afterwards WAS you..LOL!

I was thinking this could be a distinct possibility as I was posting this the other day, but figured maybe not though. We have talked about this several times in the past, and Scott said you had another one that was paired with the one Glenn Slemmer photographed in Williams' ~Systematics~......very cool indeed, and that micro featured in the book was QUITE the killer micro specimen to say the least....wow! I would give away a body part or two to own a pair that looked like the one in the book..LOL!

anyway, best regards Bill!

~Doug
 
As far as I know these are very rare in the hobby.
I thought Shannon Brown was working with some, but I am not sure.

They are almost as rare as L.t. dixoni.......I know of no one working with this ssp. and never seen any offered anywhere.......


Yeah, I think Shannon told me a good while back that he sold his group of Popayan milks.

Also, Shannon had a chance to score a couple dixoni many years ago(can't remember where now though dangit), at a show somewhere(how lucky!). So as he thought about it a bit more as he walked around the show, he thought to himself, yeah!, I'll go back and get those bad boys. When he got back to the guys table, he saw them being carried off by a guy that lived in Europe, never to be seen again............OH!.....THE AGONY!!!!!

Sad story indeed..LOL!


~Doug
 
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