Protect yourself when PayPal wont!

I've recently seen some talk about this (on the BOI), and as not to post off topic there (see Harald, we do listen http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=866668&postcount=107) I'm bringing it here. I'm specifically referring to using funds from your credit card for purchases made through PayPal.

If any of you have ever been scammed while purchasing via PayPal...then you know how difficult (if not impossible) it is to get a refund. This is due to the unreasonable obstacles PayPal puts in front of you. More often than not, after all is said and done, you wont get so much as a single penny refunded.

The following are two common end results of PayPals "protection policy" at play;

1 - Item not received...

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favour, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller's account in the future, and will take appropriate action against the seller. Such action may include issuing a warning, a temporary restriction, or terminating the account. Keep in mind that PayPal uses a number of factors, including member complaints, to determine when to take action. Due to privacy laws, we cannot discuss the details of any action taken. We hope you understand our policy and that it reassures you that you are safe using PayPal.

Sincerely,
PayPal

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2 - Item not as described... (A.K.A. Empty box)

Our investigation into your claim is complete.As stated in our User Agreement, the claims process only applies to the unreceived goods. The transaction records list the item(s) as having been delivered.Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a refund.

PayPal does not tolerate fraud or illegal activities. Your complaint has been noted in the record of the PayPal user you reported. If we find this user has violated our policies, we will investigate and take appropriate action. If this occurs, you may be contacted in the future about the status of this complaint.

To make sure future transactions proceed smoothly, we suggest you visit the PayPal site and click the Security Center link located at the bottom of any page. There you will find tips on how to avoid fraudulent sellers in the "Fraud Prevention Tips for Buyers" section.

Sincerely,
PayPal

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Basically, it goes down like this...

- YOU - I got scammed...I paid, however didn't received anything.
- PAYPAL - Please allow the seller ten days to respond to your complaint.
- YOU - TEN DAYS?!?!?!? He'll be half way to Nigeria by then?!?!?
- PAYPAL - Please allow the seller ten days to respond to your complaint.
- YOU -
(ten days pass)
- YOU - No word from the seller?!?!?
- PAYPAL - We will refund you your money...oh, no...wait...We apologize but there aren't sufficient funds in the sellers account.
- YOU -

OR.....

- YOU - I got scammed...I received an empty box with no item.
- PAYPAL - The tracking records show that you have received the item you paid for...sorry!
- YOU -

How to help avoid the above?...ALWAYS use your Credit Card as the source of your PayPal funds. It turns out that if you transfer money from your CC into your paypal account...your CC company will come to their own conclusion on whether or not you are deserving of a refund (irregardless of the results of PayPal's "investigation."). I honestly had NO clue that's how things work. I always assumed that by accepting PayPal's TOS, you are voiding your rights to Credit Card Consumer Protection. The following are such things which I based this assumption on;

If you read and accept PayPal's ToS (Terms of Service) you arein effectwaiving your rights to credit card consumer protection laws against unauthorized charges, and you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase using your credit card and PayPal account that you are unsatisfied with.

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Source article - http://www.paypalsucks.com/credit-card-waiver.shtml

In hindsight, a PayPal gripe site probably wasn't the best place to get unbiased information . Non the less, PayPal did portray false confidence as shown by a lawsuit they were forced to settle.

An investigation by Spitzer's office revealed that PayPal's "User Agreement" misrepresented to account holders certain terms and conditions, including a statement that it afforded to its account holders "the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction." In practice, consumers were often denied these rights – both by PayPal and by the credit issuers American Express and Discover.

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Source article - http://www.webcitation.org/5gd9LOmMk

Regardless of any previous "misunderstandings" on the matter...the following is from the horse's mouth (Colin Rule, the director of online dispute resolutions at PayPal);

Buyers cannot file a chargeback on the PayPal site. Instead, they must file directly with their credit card company. The chargeback process is not designed nor maintained by PayPal, so we can’t change it or reject it.

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Source article - https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2007/12/managing-charge/

The moral of the story...

- Don't assume that any payments you make through PayPal can be recovered.
- PayPal's consumer protection policy holds no weight.
- ALWAYS USE A CREDIT CARD WHILE PURCHASING THROUGH PAYPAL. Doing so will save you a HUGE headache...as well as some space on BOI forum real estate.

polasian said:

More often than not, after all is said and done, you wont get so much as a single penny refunded.

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Your claim is that in more than 50% of the times that Paypal consumers want a refund they don't get it? This has not been my experience with Paypal, I'm interested in how you came by your statistic. I've had a few transactions gone irretrievably bad, but most times I've had an issue it has been taken care of and I've received my refund.

I agree that using a credit card gives an extra measure of safety, however. Out of many Papal transactions, and some issues with stuff not received or not as described, I remember two which were found in my favor where the funds could not be recovered, and had I used a credit card I might not have been out money.

What I am referring to above is not within the scope of poor customer service...faulty products...etc... This is in regards to blatant scams. When one does something long enough, they become good at it. Scammers cover their tracks by exposing PayPals faulty (to say the least) consumer protection policies. They don't leave money in the bank...they pack up...get a new yahoo e-mail address and go for round two (or, in some cases, round 50).

As far as my statistics...the BOI. Didn't some 17 year old kid recently rip off 2 or 3 people through PayPal? Then a month later comes back (only this time as a "woman") and sells the same "snake" to two or three other people? I'm not going to re-read every thread. However, you know that sinking feeling you get, while reading some of those threads where a PayPal dispute is the last resort? That's because more often than not...we know exactly whats going to come of it...absolutely nothing.

There are occasional happy endings. On one of those threads I mentioned, involving (possibly) that 17 year old scammer...I believe someone stated that a PayPal refund is being processed. I am overjoyed for that person ...but for every happy ending, there are several PayPal tragedies.

I've done hundreds of Pay Pal transactions. Only one ever went bad and while it took some time, I did get the money put back in my account. My Pay Pal account is tied to my checking account, not a credit card. Maybe I've just been lucky and my experience is out of the ordinary though.

I quit buying anything off of e bay due to receiving multiple empty boxes or damaged/misrepresented goods. Every time the seller had a good rep. Every time e bay and paypal did absolutely nothing for me.
They were smart enough to pull the funds before I could get a refund the two times I actually got pay pal to decide in my favor. My bank was quite insulting to deal with in the matter and was of no help.
When I paid with my credit card I got my money back.
Buying things/animals online is the only reason I even own a credit card now days.

And no I don't have anything saved on the purchases, it was years ago.

Due to things that I have read here on the BOI.... I had one of my credit cards unshredded (had them send me a new one).... and its only purpose in life is to use as payment for stuff online. From here on out... I dont care if Im buying from someone I dont know... or from Amazon. Its getting paid for with the credit card and then I will immediately submit payment to the credit card from my checking account.

I think what has set me over that edge was the scammer that had been discussed earlier and the BS with Reptile Depot. Who would have thought dealing with a reptile goods supplier you would have to deal with "we dont have what you ordered and we aint giving your money back... however you can have store credit... but we dont have anything in the store. Have a nice day"

I work hard for my $$$$ and I dont want to just throw it away and HOPE that paypal will help me recover. In all the years I have been in herps... I have had to initiate one charge back... but I sent all the info to my CC company and within a week I had my money back... because I sure didnt have my product.

Twizted Paths said:

I quit buying anything off of e bay due to receiving multiple empty boxes or damaged/misrepresented goods. Every time the seller had a good rep. Every time e bay and paypal did absolutely nothing for me. They were smart enough to pull the funds before I could get a refund the two times I actually got pay pal to decide in my favor.

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My issues with PayPal have been with eBay as well.

First time I was sold a damaged product...PayPal sides with me...Asks me to ship the product back for a refund, then told me it couldn't be tracked and wouldn't issue the refund! I returned it USPS Priority! So not only was I out the product and shipping to me, I was out return shipping to the scum bag!

Second time I was sold a product not as described...PayPal sides with me...And expects me to pay $10 to ship the item back via UPS to the seller...So they can can give me my $10 back for the returned product! How the math works out in their minds I'll never know.

What gets me is eBay still allows these dingle-berries to sell on their website despite complaints and negative ratings!