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Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

dragonluver83 said:
You say animals that were inbred are small and weak, what about leucistic? there a recessive trait, and there length was 26 - 27 plus inches and 500-600 plus gram animals.




Why does a genetic mutation have to be inbred? there are genetic mutations with people. are you saying those people are inbred??? Genetic mutations happens some of the time with everything that lives and thrives. So why when its happening here with dragons there considered obvious inbreds?
You want inbreds. go to the people who breed there snakes back to there parents. Talk to them about inbreeding.

?
Click to expand...

I dont think that he means all genetic mutations are inbred. I think the part in question is how that mutation is reproduced and kept around....
You take a certain trait and keep breeding it to like traits over and over to get a superior example of the mutation. We are definitely inbreeding to keep some of these genetics going and we try and fix flaws along the way but its proven hard in some morphs. I know I dont keep a boat load of normal dragons to see if by chance a trans or hypo pops out by mistake to breed to another accidental trans or hypo.
I hope I am making sense.
Their are genetic mutations that do make it in the wild but it is rare and their is a reason for that.
If a hypo dragon appeared in the wild and I am sure one has then its bred to normal dragons naturally in the wild and has a large gene pool to choose from because they do not care if their offspring are clear nailed.
A hypo in the wild does not only mate with other hypos or het hypos. That is the difference. If a wild hypo only bred to other wild hypos then it would eventually inbreed quite a bit and weaken its offspring.

As far as leucistics go are we talking about marketed leucistics because if you have a true lucy dragon with large stature then please post pictures. I have yet to see a true lucy that is not a hypo or snow. JMO
All of my hypos seem to grow faster then hets or non hypos.

I just want to make clear these are my views and I am in no way siding with anyone or trying to fight with anyone. Just enjoying the discussion.
 
dragonluver83 said:
Chris i have alot of respect for you and no way picking a fight/arguement, but your killing me. The translucent gene is still one of the hardest genes to work with, and your breeding and then selling them.. Can you say your translucent hatchlings do as well as your normals or other morph hatchlings? So why would you be so hard on beardeds thriving, and still breeding that gene?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying they shouldn't be bred. I'm not saying that translucents, hypos, leathers or whatever else aren't interesting or cool to look at. I'm saying that there is a good way of going about it and there's not a whole lot of info on the witblits here, and the point of all this is to learn. They have to be inbred to reproduce them....I never said they had to be inbred in order for them to pop up, although you can't say thats not a possibility of why they did pop up.
 
I again can agree with several of these opinions. I think what's quite clear is the dragons health relies in the hands of the owner. I thoroughly believe this morph will thrive just as the others have. With smart decisions and proper husbandry they should do well. As I said before, many of my dragons are "higher-end" and they THRIVE. In fact a female translucent purchased from Bloodbank sometime ago has proven to be extremely fertile. I chose to out-cross her to a local breeder's line hypo-pastel to produce genetically strong double hets. From one opportunity for copulation she clutched 6 times. The fertility and hatch rate were nearly flawless as well. Again, I think with a little patience all of these genetic surprises will be just fine. I highly doubt Witblits will be the last new morph.
 
chris allen said:
So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.
Click to expand...

chris allen said:
That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.
Click to expand...

chris allen said:
I'm not talking about a simple hypo, but yet like what was said earlier....there were problems with hypos too at one time(some serious issues I saw for my own eyes and was kept under wraps by some of the biggest). People see little hints of whats being produced. Patches of odd skin, missing spikes, odd looking toes, the list goes on and on....

It seems like in certain places shortcuts are being taken and the dragons suffer. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

chris allen said:
Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.
Click to expand...

IMO, it just seems like your calling it a weak gene and trying to bash the new morph, than in the same breath hoping all is well.
i just dont know where your coming from. I cant even tell if your for or against the new morph. Its like your for it, but only bad things are going to happen because other breeders are going to mess it up.
Everyone is going to try and cross those lines just like any other morph but thats what separates the hobbyist and the breeders.
 
Would like to clarify something real quick, the Author of that book wasnt Paul lynch. It was Fredrick L. Frye. sorry:eek:

nick_c said:
I again can agree with several of these opinions. I think what's quite clear is the dragons health relies in the hands of the owner. I thoroughly believe this morph will thrive just as the others have. With smart decisions and proper husbandry they should do well. As I said before, many of my dragons are "higher-end" and they THRIVE. In fact a female translucent purchased from Bloodbank sometime ago has proven to be extremely fertile. I chose to out-cross her to a local breeder's line hypo-pastel to produce genetically strong double hets. From one opportunity for copulation she clutched 6 times. The fertility and hatch rate were nearly flawless as well. Again, I think with a little patience all of these genetic surprises will be just fine. I highly doubt Witblits will be the last new morph.
Click to expand...

Nick you have said twice that you see good opinions from both sides? But i dont think some opinions are a "sound opinion"
It was stated the "genetically inferior animals are small and weak". But like i said look at the leucistic bearded dragon that animal speaks for itself.

It was stated that genetically inferior animals cant make it in the wild, nature would kill them off. But there is a book on genetically inferior animals surviving to adult hood.
It was stated that these genetically inferior were inbred. Where the op has stated that there hasnt been any inbreeding to produce these animals..

But i Will STRONGLY agree with Chris. The OP cant give you solid information on the dragon and its genetic traits. And there for this animal should not even be on the Market until more is known about it. The fact is your marketing a product that you yourself know much about. And you should work with your dragon more so when the time to sell it has arrived you can promptly answer any question that has been asked. So IMO the seller may be seeing some dollar signs... Does Chevy sell a new truck without a test run brake check etc. no that truck is thoroughly inspected. An if the potential buyer had a question, the dealer had a answer! and that is the way it should be here. and it is NOT!
 
chris allen said:
Come on Tom, how would I even be calling it a weak gene if I know nothing about it??
Click to expand...

Well thats what i am saying, you know nothing about it, and there has been alot of negative from you about the animal. Thats why i put your negative comments in bold. 4 post just seemed negative.
And like any other morph, hypos, trans, etc... it needs time and work. and your right like anything else there is gonna be people that try to produce it and market it as fast as possible. but do you think the people that do a close inbreeding are gonna produce healthy normal dragons? Nope something will be wrong whether it was a visible problem or a problem with the way the dragon acts and responds in its habitat.
 
I'm not sure you really understand where I'm coming from, or where I was trying to go with this. I'm not negative about the animal at all...... and I'll leave it at that.
 
Tom, now I know just the topics to bring up to ruffle your feathers a bit, lol. One day I'll have to tell you how I really feel about things LOL.
 
chris allen said:
Tom, now I know just the topics to bring up to ruffle your feathers a bit, lol. One day I'll have to tell you how I really feel about things LOL.
Click to expand...

Lol, well its just, dont shoot something down cause its new. dont insult someone cause of there new morph when you dont know nothing about it.
An when your talking about "Genetically inferior morphs" " high end dragons" what ever you want to call them, If you want to have a credible opinion should you have some kind of hands on experience. Not talk down on them when your standing on the outside of the loop.
What i said isnt directed at you, Chris or you Brian. But.. lol. yea i get worked up when people talk trash about "genetically inferior" dragons. These are animals i have been working with for the last two years now. High end dragons is my work, its what i spend most of my time working with. And i have much much more to learn about these animals but i do have a good bit of knowledge on them.
"High end dragons" the "genetically inferior" gene. The "weak and small unhealthy dragons". :rofl:.. I Love everyone of these beautiful animals i work with, And Not one of my "Geneically inferior" dragons are any unhealthier than any of my normal sandfires bearded dragons... There just different!
Chris let me know i would drive to Jersey to find out. Well that and catch a charter boat trip at night. Love the Jersey shore!!!
 
Some of the points I was referring to were opinions. I just happen to agree with a few opinions I guess. I am almost equally enthused about both larger and smaller dragons. I do however like to see the dragons in my program robust no matter what the length. I simply enjoy all physiques, colors, sizes, and tubercle sizes. I do agree with the notion that size does not in all cases mean the dragon is healthy. I still do believe it boils down to each individuals preference.
 
But i Will STRONGLY agree with Chris. The OP cant give you solid information on the dragon and its genetic traits. And there for this animal should not even be on the Market until more is known about it.
Click to expand...

Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...
 
sizzlindragons said:
To a point certainly. Most now days are not random genetic mutations. I doubt a hypo trans leatherback would ever randomly pop up.
Click to expand...

No, something like that would be what I would consider a combo morph, which of course is made by crossing existing morphs together. I was referring more to the "base morphs" (for lack of a better term). Keep in mind my knowledge with regards to beardies is limited, but I've been working with leos for 15 years and have seen the explosion in color and pattern morphs in those over the past years.
 
witblits said:
Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...
Click to expand...

I personally would have done at least one more test breeding (breeding Witblits back to parent) to get a better grip on what the genetics are prior to releasing the morph, but decisions like that are up to the breeder, and I don't fault you for it. I wish you were here in the states as I would be very interested in obtaining one of these true patternless dragons and perhaps a sibling, however the price of shipping is a bit of a turnoff. It must be much more expensive to export from South Africa than it is from Europe or the US because we pay nowhere near that much to export dozens of animals to and from Europe and vice versa.
 
KelliH said:
No, something like that would be what I would consider a combo morph, which of course is made by crossing existing morphs together. I was referring more to the "base morphs" (for lack of a better term). Keep in mind my knowledge with regards to beardies is limited, but I've been working with leos for 15 years and have seen the explosion in color and pattern morphs in those over the past years.
Click to expand...

I agree but the explosion of colors and combos would never be seen in the wild. I think some of the more extreme morphs would never make it in the wild but it does not mean its an unhealthy pet or inferior just not as hardy.
I actually find leatherbacks to be some of the easiest babies to raise and keep fat. I love working with certain leatherbacks. Trans not so much but I do keep trying different lines to see what suits me and what I like.
I am now getting into geckos and I highly doubt my Enigmas would ever make it in the wild.
How and what we breed plays a huge role in the health of an animal. That is just my opinion.
 
sizzlindragons said:
I agree but the explosion of colors and combos would never be seen in the wild. I think some of the more extreme morphs would never make it in the wild but it does not mean its an unhealthy pet or inferior just not as hardy.
I actually find leatherbacks to be some of the easiest babies to raise and keep fat. I love working with certain leatherbacks. Trans not so much but I do keep trying different lines to see what suits me and what I like.
I am now getting into geckos and I highly doubt my Enigmas would ever make it in the wild.
How and what we breed plays a huge role in the health of an animal. That is just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree that many of the morphs would never survive long term in the wild, albinos included. But the fact is that these animals are not in the wild, they are captivity and are reproduced for our own pleasure and no other reason really.
 
Oh I agree that many of the morphs would never survive long term in the wild, albinos included. But the fact is that these animals are not in the wild, they are captivity and are reproduced for our own pleasure and no other reason really.
Click to expand...

I agree, and have yet to produce or own a "high-end" dragon that was inferior to its het siblings or any other for that matter. These dragons are as strong as they come in my book. Some dragons can be more difficult than others, true. But there are many factors that play a major role even in development inside the egg(humidity/temps/etc). Some little guys just get a rough start, but with proper care and precautions they turn out just fine most of the time. Nature will always play a role in survival, they can't all make it every time.
 
witblits said:
Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...
Click to expand...

Jacques, please you can call me Tom. What was wrong with my statement? Yes, you state almost the same thing. Not much is known about the morph. I simply added more should be known about this animal before it is marketed. Your marketing a 4500 dollar bearded dragon without saying for sure its a simple recessive trait! Also here's my next question. You talk about breeding color to the witblits dragon right? red orange yellow? What if this animal cant not develop color? So now what? Make the animal lighter or whiter? Guess thats it?
So they were trying to take your beardies huh? that def would be depressing. Just like the breeders and hobbyist here and the states who just got done fight a bill to ban ALL NON NATIVE ANIMALS... Not just one species. And are we not still fighting the bill to ban the certain types of snake? I dont know... An because there may be a law passed to ban b.d. dragons in s.a. that means hurry sell sell sell??? and if so why are they not more affordable???
Yea your right, I am on here saying what i am saying, reading books, and giving titles to prove the facts, but i didnt take the five minutes needed to read your web-site.:rolleyes:.
So you talk about breeders and collectors? i am unsure any collector is going to drop 5500 hundred dollars To put that dragon in a cage and look at. Unless it just a rich schmo.And the "pioneer breeder" would buy a few of those animals get a wholesale price or a better price. So your saying these guys are taking the risk for 5 dragons at say 4500 a dragon plus exports fee's. So thats somewhere around 23 -24 Grand. For 5 dragons. then they have to reproduce a witblit to get a witblit price. which in the states my friend would be around 2 grand. and thats for the first ones.Thats alot of risk for not much reward...
 
witblits said:
Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive.. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...
Click to expand...


But you would have a good knowledge of the dragon and could answer every question that was answered instead of being in the dark about somethings..
There you have it the translucent went for 3000 dollars there and here they went for at most 1000 dollars! So there is your price difference. 3 to 1
How many witblits have you hatched?

The witblits dont die? Maybe there not weak i will go with that. what will they be after you inbreed them? an to say "they dont die",:rolleyes: there like any other dragon. you just havent had a weak one yet. And when you reproduce these guys your going to have to make them weaker before you can make them stronger.
Thats right there not cars, there a living breathing animal that is fragile and irreplaceable. But if i was the one selling them for 4000-5000 dollars i would want them on the market too.
 
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