WTH Rich!

Originally Posted by Rich Z

So I take it that you can't see where those personal attacks on me began then?

Not surprising, I guess....

Dude we all see where it started....You posted us the link to it

Originally Posted by johns6068

Wasn't it you who referred first to the pot calling the kettle black?? That's twice now that I have seen where this statement of yours fits you pretty well

Do you even know what that phrase means?

Actually it seems to me that it was YOU starting off with the personal attacks, bud.

Originally Posted by johns6068

this is a pretty stupid and irresponsible thing to do at one of the worst times for our hobby IMO.....Secondly the fact that he is thinking about dumping any captive unhealthy animals into the environment is just disturbing......who knows what may he may introduce into the natural population and the environment and what consequences might come from it???

Just because someone has an opinion differing from yours doesn't make it "stupid" nor "irresponsible". Sorry but I just do not agree with your opinion that appears to be based on that above mentioned "chicken little" syndrome that some have. Or do you have some FACTS up your sleeve that you are withholding from this conversation instead of just slinging around derogatory statements?

Actually I'll bet you didn't even bother reading that other thread I posted did you? Who said those animals were "unhealthy"? "Not doing well in captivity" in the context I used it does not mean "unhealthy", it means that captivity and/or the feed items I needed them to feed on just did not agree with their desired lifestyle. Or did YOUR blinders block that as well? You DO know what the reference to "blinders" means, now don't you?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Do you even know what that phrase means?

Who doesn't after reading a few of your post is the better question But since you asked and I seem to actually know what it means to answer a question when asked.....here it is

Pot calling kettle Black: is an idiom used to accuse a person or thing of being marked with or guilty of the very thing they are pointing out. This may or may not be hypocritical or contradictory.

Humm yep that sounds like a lot of your post to Ron

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Actually it seems to me that it was YOU starting off with the personal attacks, bud.

As to the second part it took you long enough to respond to me....better yet I see you actually finally got around to responding to the OP of the thread....Would have been real nice now had you only actually answered his question? Would have saved you a lot of grief here

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Not all of them, of course, but definitely some of them...

You have to wonder how many last remaining samples of rare species went extinct in order to fill museums with specimens....

Yes, some are self-serving, but what occupation doesn't have people of that sort? Your statement about scientists insinuates that all scientists (especially those who publish papers) are that way, whether that was your intention or not.

---

Look, thinking something isn't harmful does not make it so. I have to wonder if people who release Burms into the wild in southern Florida think the same way....

Okay, so you've done some research on your own and come to the conclusion that it's okay to release captive corns into the wild. Are you absolutely certain of that? Are you certain enough to risk the health and viability of wild population of corn snakes...and the rights of those who keep reptiles as pets? Do you (or anyone, for that matter) know all the diseases and maladies that corn snakes can have, and do you know for certain that they would not be harmful to the wild corn snakes, predators of corn snakes, and prey of corn snakes? If you (the general "you," not just Rich) cannot say yes, with absolute certainty, to all of these questions (and more--this isn't a comprehensive list), then you shouldn't be releasing any captive corn snakes into the wild. Period.

To those who know more about corns than I, has anyone done peer-reviewed scientific studies on the differences and/or viability of wild and captive corn snakes?

An interresting read

http://www.nanfa.org/archive/nanfa/nanfamay02/0324.html

from the Dallas-Fort Worth Herpetological Society

References cited

References


Conant, R., and J.T. Collins (1998) A field guide to reptiles & amphibians
of eastern and central North America (3rd Ed., expanded). Boston:
Houghton-Mifflin.
McLaughlin, G.S. (1998) Upper Respiratory Tract Disease: An Update -
January 1998. California Turtle & Tortoise Club website:
<http://www.tortoise.org/general/urds2.html>
PARC (2002) Please ... Don't turn it loose! (brochure available at the
PARC website: <http://www.parcplace.org/>
University of Florida. (2002) Mycoplasmosis of tortoises. University of
Florida Small Animal Clinical Sciences website:
<http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/URTD.html>

Rob Denkhaus
Fort Worth Nature Center & Refuge

Hey Rich,

In the spirit of intellectual debate, playing devils advocate, and the part of me that is a smart-ass(87.2%) here's some questions for you. That I would like real answers to-since I am an evil scientist. bwah-ha-ha

I've said it like 30 times here, so you may or may not know that I'm a biological scientist at the Department of Molecular Genetics and Microbiology at UF. So genetics interest me.

Do you know what genes upon, and which DNA pairs were mutated to cause any of the numerous corn snake colorations? And what mechanism (physical, chemical, hormonal) that are being interrupted, blocked, mis-regulated, etc etc to give us the phenotypes we see. And also what other structures are effected, and what is and isn't repaired in incubation by sympathetic effects of neighboring stem cells.

The above statement is due to the following:

1. I'm working on outlining some mutations in other snakes that may or may not have some gene conservation from a common ancestor with the corns.

2. I've noticed in other peoples corns over the years (conservatively I've worked with 125,000 babies in the last 12 years/4 facilities) along with color mutations, non-lethal body composition and conformation mutations (kinks, hydrocephaly, failure of the embryonic fissure to close evenly, degredation of the intervetebral disks, exopthalmia, retinal degredation, retinal detachment, cataracts(age onset), increased twinning, gastric strictures, renal tumors(age onset) and lethal mutations in severe cases of kinking, failure of embryonic fissure to close, dystocia, and a whole host of it was perfectly formed but dead in the egg at day 60.

Compare this with roughly 1000 eggs from W.C. corns I have had in the same time frame and I will swear to god, television, starbucks or whichever you pray to that I have seen about 20,000 b-grade amel and snow forms, and about 25 problem animals from the wild corns. That is quite an elevated difference even when adjusted for scale. So how can you argue that inbreeding and line breeding is not having an effect.

3. Have you done full bacterial, fungal, and viral assays of all the major tissue types and organs specifically G.I and respiratory tract and compared with a native local animal, miami form, and okeetee form to back up your statement that since you have a "clean-problem free" facility that you would not be releasing any foriegn micro-organisms, diseases, conditions?

4. Have you recently done a species and density survey of your five acres to determine what amphibian, reptile, raptor, and rodent populations look like prior to any hypothetical release so it could be determined what the release would do. Yes, your raptors and king snakes will think butter motleys are yummy and can't hide for crap in a leaf litter pile. But what about your endangered amphibians that your miami form corns will be sucking down with gusto?

5. Have you been informed of the regulation change that it is a felony to intentionally release any captive animal into the wild exotic or not(although they never seem to charge the millions of freaking cat owners-although my surinam boas love american shorthairs)

Ok, enough long rambling questions for now , get back to me in between the whose attacked, attacking, offended, posts.


Thanks
ben

Originally Posted by bcherps

Hey Rich,

In the spirit of intellectual debate, playing devils advocate, and the part of me that is a smart-ass(87.2%) here's some questions for you. That I would like real answers to-since I am an evil scientist. bwah-ha-ha

After reading this, I do believe the part about the "smart-ass" spirit. So I trust you expect me to answer it in like kind...

[quote=bcherps;843179]I've said it like 30 times here, so you may or may not know that I'm a biological scientist at the Department of Molecular Genetics and Microbiology at UF. So genetics interest me.
[quote]

Congrats. I'm sure your mother is proud. Seriously, I mean that.....

Originally Posted by bcherps

Do you know what genes upon, and which DNA pairs were mutated to cause any of the numerous corn snake colorations? And what mechanism (physical, chemical, hormonal) that are being interrupted, blocked, mis-regulated, etc etc to give us the phenotypes we see. And also what other structures are effected, and what is and isn't repaired in incubation by sympathetic effects of neighboring stem cells.

Nope. I also don't know all of the muscles and physical forces involved, but i can still ride a bicycle.

Originally Posted by bcherps

The above statement is due to the following:

1. I'm working on outlining some mutations in other snakes that may or may not have some gene conservation from a common ancestor with the corns.

Sounds interesting. Good luck with your quest.

Originally Posted by bcherps

2. I've noticed in other peoples corns over the years (conservatively I've worked with 125,000 babies in the last 12 years/4 facilities) along with color mutations, non-lethal body composition and conformation mutations (kinks, hydrocephaly, failure of the embryonic fissure to close evenly, degredation of the intervetebral disks, exopthalmia, retinal degredation, retinal detachment, cataracts(age onset), increased twinning, gastric strictures, renal tumors(age onset) and lethal mutations in severe cases of kinking, failure of embryonic fissure to close, dystocia, and a whole host of it was perfectly formed but dead in the egg at day 60.

Compare this with roughly 1000 eggs from W.C. corns I have had in the same time frame and I will swear to god, television, starbucks or whichever you pray to that I have seen about 20,000 b-grade amel and snow forms, and about 25 problem animals from the wild corns. That is quite an elevated difference even when adjusted for scale. So how can you argue that inbreeding and line breeding is not having an effect.

Sounds to me that those "other peoples" need to change their methods for taking care of the females while developing their eggs, and/or incubating the eggs. Sounds like they are having problems with the development stages of the embryos.

As for the wild caughts, at what stage were the eggs developed when the female was wild caught? Quite frankly, I believe that most people's methods of caring for gravid females and properly incubating eggs is borderline, at best. I say this because in all the years I have captured gravid females or found clutches of eggs from ANY species in the wild, I have never had infertile eggs from those clutches. Nor have I ever found hatched eggs where 100 percent did not hatch out in the wild. A feat I have never been able to duplicate at any year with all of my females' production. So yes, I believe that we are only able to provide borderline satisfactory conditions for gravid females and their eggs in a captive environment.

But I guess you are implying some sort of genetic disorder. Sorry, I am more inclined to believe developmental issues are at work.

Originally Posted by bcherps

3. Have you done full bacterial, fungal, and viral assays of all the major tissue types and organs specifically G.I and respiratory tract and compared with a native local animal, miami form, and okeetee form to back up your statement that since you have a "clean-problem free" facility that you would not be releasing any foriegn micro-organisms, diseases, conditions?

I believe this is where the "smart-ass" in you is kicking in....

Originally Posted by bcherps

4. Have you recently done a species and density survey of your five acres to determine what amphibian, reptile, raptor, and rodent populations look like prior to any hypothetical release so it could be determined what the release would do. Yes, your raptors and king snakes will think butter motleys are yummy and can't hide for crap in a leaf litter pile. But what about your endangered amphibians that your miami form corns will be sucking down with gusto?

Ditto above...

Originally Posted by bcherps

5. Have you been informed of the regulation change that it is a felony to intentionally release any captive animal into the wild exotic or not(although they never seem to charge the millions of freaking cat owners-although my surinam boas love american shorthairs)

Nope.

Source link please? I and others have looked long and hard for laws concerning captive releases in Florida, yet have found none except a very recent "rule" (not law) from FWCC concerning the release of reptiles that some unidentified person would "reasonably" expect the releases to be unhealhy.

Originally Posted by bcherps

Ok, enough long rambling questions for now , get back to me in between the whose attacked, attacking, offended, posts.


Thanks
ben

You are welcome....

This will go pretty far to clear this up.... You said,

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I HAVE thought of all the issues and did as much research as practical and in MY OPINION, nothing I did was damaging, nor was likely to be damaging to anything nor anyone at all.

Could you explain what research you did and how your research led to that conclusion?

I wonder because so far, all I've seen, in this thread, is the argument that because they're native to the area, then it's not harmful to the corn snake population or to the rest of the native ecosystem to release captive corn snakes (something that several of us have debunked already). In the thread you linked (at least, the first 10+ pages or so), the only "research" you discuss is noting an increase in rodent populations around your house. Any observation you make at your house is only one data point; no one can make significant conclusions with only one data point.

Think of it this way: I have never seen a rattlesnake around my house, so there must not be any rattlesnakes in Tucson! See how that conclusion doesn't follow?

My point: Neither you, nor any one else, for that matter, know the full extent of what releasing captive corn snakes into the wild does to the native corn snake population or the rest of the ecosystem. So...why would anyone who truly cares about corn snakes and/or other species take that risk?

Rich, I had pointed out to you the emails I recieved from the FWC that the release of captive bred corn snake morphs was illegal, although, you have this convenient arrogance that you are above the state regulations.

Thank you for contacting the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. The response to your concerns appears below.

You may follow the link below to login and check the status of your account.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.


Click here to visit the Ask FWC Web site.


Subject
releasing captive bred corn snakes

Discussion Thread
Response (LE-JW) 12/11/2009 09:43 AM
As noted in your question below, the sub-species of corn snake is the issue. The statute that covers release is 379.231. The Florida Administrative Code sections would be 68-5.001. 68A-4.001 & 4.005.
Customer (Pete Kirkwood) 12/10/2009 08:45 PM
Could you please state the specific law regarding the unlawful release of any widlife in the state of Florida?

Regards,
Pete Kirkwood
Response (LE-JW) 12/10/2009 12:25 PM
It is unlawful to release any wildlife into the state without a permit from the Commission. If this is in reference to recent postings on an Internet reptile forum, we are aware of this and are investigating. If you have information that is different or may assist in the investigation please relay the information to the nearest FWC Regional Office, Division of Law Enforcement, http://myfwc.com/About/About_OrgStructure.htm.
Customer (Pete Kirkwood) 12/10/2009 02:01 AM
Is it legal in the State of Florida to release captive bred corn snakes, including genetic morphs into the wild?

I am very interested to know this.

I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,
Pete Kirkwood

[---001:

So far, in here and on CS.com, you have falied miserableby to put up a valid arguement. If you really want to know the legality of your actions, as I mentioned before to you, the FWC is just a phonecall away. But you seem to be above making phone calls.

Originally Posted by snowgyre

Sport fish species introductions is a different entity altogether. They are performed not because of ecological need, but because of sport fisherman perceptions of what is 'missing' in a system. The disastrous introduction of nonnative lake trout, brown trout, and other invasive species that severely impact native (brook, cutthroat, bull, rainbow, etc.) trout populations (see Yellowstone Park's stance on invasive lake trout in Yellowstone Lake).

Head start programs are completely different from adhoc, spontaneous releases. They are carefully thought out, permits are required, genetics are considered and tested, and only individuals extensively tested for health are released. I can see the "real" research you have supposedly done on this topic is hardly "real" at all. I provided real, published, peer reviewed abstracts. You did not. You did not even acknowledge them, despite the fact that you said you were interested. Lip service, anyone? Yet you continue to deny the fact that you could be introducing disease and bad genetics to local populations? Instead, you choose to fan the fire with Norsmis, who I was ignoring because of the angry, emotional accusations (s)he was making. Apparently it's enjoyable to be hot headed though.

I tried to remain objective in this thread, but it has now become impossible for me to do so in the face of such false "proofs" and "research" that is being used continually to justify something that is morally, ethically, and ecologically wrong. This is my last post in this thread, and I encourage anyone who has their heads on straight to discontinue reading and participating in this flame war.

Thank you for putting some things into perspective here and using another animal to do it.
While this may be on the cusp of something between acceptable and unacceptable I find some of the foul language and nastiness pretty telling.
Total lack of ability to say, "hey maybe I was wrong, I hadn't thought of that" and that is really concerning.