Johathon at Breeders Circle saying his Citrus Pastel WO makes our Power House WO

Both parties at this point may be hoping this goes away but unlike a Michael Jackson trial a greased palm will not just make this go away. I for one need good hard facts on BOTH parties animals in question. If Clarks whitewash came from Amir's whiteout line and they are no good then I'm guessing Clark (or Joe or the Pope) has some explaining to do as well. This is maybe the reason for the shhhhh you don't tell I won't tell!

To the OP or Jon I have 1 strait forward question!

Do I need to breed a white out male either citrus or whatever powerhouse combo male to make a double or triple morph before I can see the whiteout gene?

If you don't want to answer questions hear I might suggest posting a link to discussion thread where this can all be discussed or my best guess is this will remain toward the top of the BIO until some answers are found.

Is that the best you can do is to make a convoluted mess of things all jonathan has to do is show the proof simple as that mister foster grow up this was the thread to find out the truth not to throw mud and not about punctuation judy c and herpvenue yo do me a favor stop turning this into my punctuation put this back on where it belongs the truth of the matter of fact it no buddy came to an understanding I don't care about name dropping you had it all wrong as usual that doesn't surprise me. Everybody does a topic jonathon needs toto prove the fact that he has not done something wrong here in misrepresenting his animals and powerhouse reptiles an breeder circle never came to some understanding in the sense of that's all joe's said was if you if you would've paid attention was that he is taking the name as washout and done with this white out garbage and I'm starting to feel the same now morse's been tainted so badly I don't think I care whether he does explain the white out to me anymore especially are people getting in the way in making this all about punctuation spare me just because the run on sentences doesn't mean you can't tell where I was going with my conversation next time you wanna call me out do it right get it right had your ducks in a row

Originally Posted by mountain top

stop turning this into my punctuation

Don't want to derail this further, but simply put, if you could at least break your posts up into smaller paragraphs, it would make it easier to read.

Like this.

I literally get out of breath trying to follow your posts, and that makes it hard to follow your argument.

Meant in the best way.

I'm not a ball python guy but I would also like to see this "whiteout" mystery cleared up. It's very shady to me that there is no more discussion of the topic anymore from either party.

It makes me wonder if each has dirt on the other and they both agreed to shut up.

Originally Posted by KingBowser

I'm not a ball python guy but I would also like to see this "whiteout" mystery cleared up. It's very shady to me that there is no more discussion of the topic anymore from either party.

It looks very poor. I'm not sure who would want to invest in a project where these kind of allegations are thrown out there and then everything is shut down and silenced. I'll stand by and wait for this clarification thread in the discussion area and hope it's solved there

The OP has some snakes for sale at the moment, I'm sure potential buyers would be interested in this thread. But the classified BOI search button on the ad does not seem to be bringing this thread up, is that because the OP is not in the title?

I am still wanting to see these genetic markers and hear an explanation. Can someone please explain these markers of a whiteout?
Thank you, Mountain Top

I am good friends with Clark, I am also friends with Jonathan. Do I agree with the way this is being handled on either end, NO. I personally wish for both parties sake that this tread was never started. So here are some of the facts that I am aware of:

Clark did acquire the original animal from Amir, however Amir did not produce the animal Clark received as partial payment. The whole story about Amir owing PHR is true. (Clark and his family were visiting me and my family at our place in the Keys when this was going down, so I did hear parts of the conversations)
Clark picked up that animal from Amir on his way back from the Keys to my house. I saw the animal and said: That thing is worth how much? I can honestly say- It was a very poor example of a regular pastel calico. (This animal did not show any signs of the whiteout! The snake was straight out of the egg weighing about 50 grams. Clark had later told me that he had a hard time getting the animal started.

In 2010 Clark bred that Pastel Calico and made a couple really nice clutches where more then half of each clutch came out very tweaked and washed out. (Pastels, Super Pastels and Pastel Calicos or Supers)

Mike Bell, also a friend of mine also produced IMO the only other animals that looked very similar to the ones Clark produced a month or so earlier, Very washed out Pastel Calicos or Supers and Super Pastels) All looking the same as the ones Clark had recently produced.

Also, Amir purchased one of the snakes Mike Bell produced to display at the 2010 Tinley Park show as his white out Gene and sold the animal for nearly three times what he had paid mike for it.

I always wondered why Amir would have needed to purchase that animal from Mike? Is he not the originator of the Whiteout? Doesn't he have a huge breeding facility? Wouldn't most people think that he would have made dozens of those animals that looked just like the ones Clark and Mike produced with all his stock?

Here is my take, and I have been trying to figure it out much longer then most of you reading this. The Gene in which Clark Tucker and Mike Bell have at their facilities is completely different from the Citrus Whiteout gene that Amir has. It does different things when crossed with different mutations.

Some of you may like the Citrus Pastels and Citrus Pastel Whiteouts, I do! I think the example Joe Ellis had in his add was remarkable.

Some of you may have seen the Pictures Clark Tucker and Mike Bell posted last year of their washed out pastel or super pastel calicos and said: Wow, I want one of those or atleast the gene to make one of those, I know I did.

Bottom line: If you like the Citrus Pastels and Citrus Pastel Crosses go out and buy them, they are great looking animals.

If you want the washed out patterns that Clark and Mike have consistently produced then go out and buy stock from either of them.

I strongly believe that these are two completely different lines of animals, they are not the same. I think the confusion was that they were both initially called the (Whiteout) which made people believe that they were the same mutation.

I hope for both parties involved, that this whole thing gets cleared up and they can both go back to running their operations, both are very nice individuals to do business with.

Clark Tucker is soley a "snake breeder" he only markets and sells what he produces (It is not mandatory that you Quarantine animals that you receive from Clark, He has had a closed collection ever since he started running PHR).

Jonathan is rather new to breeding snakes, Yes he produced a few nice clutches this year and made some spectors and stripes as well as some others. However, most of the animals that Jonathan advertises and sells, come from other breeders, Amir, Marc Baily, Suffork Selects, Joe Ellis, Myself and others willing to do a decent trade with him.

I am not saying anything is wrong with either practice, I am trying to give some history behind both parties involved in this thread- (Someone stated in this thread that Jonathan was a huge snake breeder and Clark was a small breeder. (That was not accurate information).

Again, Both mutations are really nice animals and create nice crosses but IMO they are very, very different so purchase the ones you like best folks!

Originally Posted by Get Sum

I am good friends with Clark, I am also friends with Jonathan. Do I agree with the way this is being handled on either end, NO. I personally wish for both parties sake that this tread was never started. So here are some of the facts that I am aware of:

Clark did acquire the original animal from Amir, however Amir did not produce the animal Clark received as partial payment. The whole story about Amir owing PHR is true. (Clark and his family were visiting me and my family at our place in the Keys when this was going down, so I did hear parts of the conversations)
Clark picked up that animal from Amir on his way back from the Keys to my house. I saw the animal and said: That thing is worth how much? I can honestly say- It was a very poor example of a regular pastel calico. (This animal did not show any signs of the whiteout! The snake was straight out of the egg weighing about 50 grams. Clark had later told me that he had a hard time getting the animal started.

In 2010 Clark bred that Pastel Calico and made a couple really nice clutches where more then half of each clutch came out very tweaked and washed out. (Pastels, Super Pastels and Pastel Calicos or Supers)

Mike Bell, also a friend of mine also produced IMO the only other animals that looked very similar to the ones Clark produced a month or so earlier, Very washed out Pastel Calicos or Supers and Super Pastels) All looking the same as the ones Clark had recently produced.

Also, Amir purchased one of the snakes Mike Bell produced to display at the 2010 Tinley Park show as his white out Gene and sold the animal for nearly three times what he had paid mike for it.

I always wondered why Amir would have needed to purchase that animal from Mike? Is he not the originator of the Whiteout? Doesn't he have a huge breeding facility? Wouldn't most people think that he would have made dozens of those animals that looked just like the ones Clark and Mike produced with all his stock?

Here is my take, and I have been trying to figure it out much longer then most of you reading this. The Gene in which Clark Tucker and Mike Bell have at their facilities is completely different from the Citrus Whiteout gene that Amir has. It does different things when crossed with different mutations.

Some of you may like the Citrus Pastels and Citrus Pastel Whiteouts, I do! I think the example Joe Ellis had in his add was remarkable.

Some of you may have seen the Pictures Clark Tucker and Mike Bell posted last year of their washed out pastel or super pastel calicos and said: Wow, I want one of those or atleast the gene to make one of those, I know I did.

Bottom line: If you like the Citrus Pastels and Citrus Pastel Crosses go out and buy them, they are great looking animals.

If you want the washed out patterns that Clark and Mike have consistently produced then go out and buy stock from either of them.

I strongly believe that these are two completely different lines of animals, they are not the same. I think the confusion was that they were both initially called the (Whiteout) which made people believe that they were the same mutation.

I hope for both parties involved, that this whole thing gets cleared up and they can both go back to running their operations, both are very nice individuals to do business with.

Clark Tucker is soley a "snake breeder" he only markets and sells what he produces (It is not mandatory that you Quarantine animals that you receive from Clark, He has had a closed collection ever since he started running PHR).

Jonathan is rather new to breeding snakes, Yes he produced a few nice clutches this year and made some spectors and stripes as well as some others. However, most of the animals that Jonathan advertises and sells, come from other breeders, Amir, Marc Baily, Suffork Selects, Joe Ellis, Myself and others willing to do a decent trade with him.

I am not saying anything is wrong with either practice, I am trying to give some history behind both parties involved in this thread- (Someone stated in this thread that Jonathan was a huge snake breeder and Clark was a small breeder. (That was not accurate information).

Again, Both mutations are really nice animals and create nice crosses but IMO they are very, very different so purchase the ones you like best folks!

This was my understanding already, great post to clear some of the confusion Jason!

my whole issue is does the citrus pastel have markers that tell Amir and Jonathan that the animal WILL OR WILL NOT produce white outs? One says yes one says no.... that's confusing? Kevin, go back to bed no one is going to tell you what the markers are for the W/O gene its to early to divuldge if they DO in fact know that they have markers.... now if they do then why all of this possibility of making a W/O with out markers.

I for one want clarification on where Jonathan and Amir don't see eye to eye on the same gene....

The PHR washout is it's own visual gene. As pictured and stated in the World of Ball Pythons, even though the name is still awaiting update. THE WASHOUT IS IT'S OWN VISUAL GENETIC MORPH. The visual morph is the marker on the PHR Washout.
So come on Jon, show the markers already! This won't go away! It seems Amir left you hanging high and dry about you being part of his Whiteout project. Amir stated it is not random occurring as you said Jon! There are visual genetic markers. The Whiteout would be visible in every clutch. Jon,someone in this thread stated you showed them your visual genetic marker. Show the marker already! The PHR Washout is NOT a citrus pastel white out. Amir did not produce the animal that is making the washout, he flipped it to them. That is why he is leaving Jon hanging high and dry and posting no photos of any animals. He has not produced a Washout. Mountain Top