What's with the price crashing?

Originally Posted by paulWTAMU

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

There may have been a time when it was as simple as that...but I don't believe that it is necessarily the case now. Sorry, but I'm just not a proponent of the drop the price til it sells technique.

Originally Posted by paulWTAMU

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

Originally Posted by hhmoore

There may have been a time when it was as simple as that...but I don't believe that it is necessarily the case now. Sorry, but I'm just not a proponent of the drop the price til it sells technique.

Now days you have to take into consideration the majority of the people buying are looking based on price making what Paul says for them true, but Mr. Moore thinks a lot like me and a selective crowd that is willing to pay well above market to get a top notch animal. I do have to say though that more people talk this game than actually play it.

Also a sellers price exists. I just hatched out a Lemon queen bee clutch and ended up with 0.1 Lemon Pastel, 0.1 spider, 0.1 Lemon Bee, and 0.2 Queen bees. You can bet I am keeping one of the Lemon Queen Bees. We have a helper that has agreed to indentured servitude one day a week for the year to get the other Queen, the spider was sold before it was completely out of the egg, the lemon pastel is an awesome looking pastel that we want to hold back to see the difference between it and our blond line as adults. The Lemon bee is what I believe is a high quality bee, but you have to sell something once in a while. She will probably be listed for sale at a later date, but she isn't going to be sold off as one of these $400 to $450 super dirty bees that have a pastel in them that probably by its self doesn't look much brighter than a normal. No, once she has 3 meals, she will be on the expensive side of bees and if she doesn't sell my heart will not be broken.

Originally Posted by paulWTAMU

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

I disagree with this as well...

The price drops witnessed that last few years are due to people mass-breeding and not being able to handle holding onto animals until they sell for a reasonable price...Instead wanting instant gratification of cash in hand and dropping public prices to wholesale prices...

I've been heavy in the leopard gecko market for more than 12 years and it's the worst it's ever been right now. It's mostly a case of supply and demand (too many people breeding leopard geckos); mix that with a crappy economy and you get we are dealing with now. I don't see it getting much better, ever.

Who decides what something is worth though? I can claim a normal ball or leo is worth 500 dollars because it's just that awesome, but the market as a whole will laugh at me. Just because you as a seller feels an animal is "worth" X amount doesn't make it so.

The price drops witnessed that last few years are due to people mass-breeding and not being able to handle holding onto animals until they sell for a reasonable price

2 things: I agree with that statement. Too many people seem to be breeding with the attitude that they HAVE TO SELL RIGHTNOWOMG! And lots more people are breeding. This leads to a glut of supply--and let's face it, the average kid buying a ball or king doesn't really care too much about if it's a really pretty one or not. So if he's got 10,000 to choose from...he'll probably go on price, service, location. That's as true of morphs as regulars; how many albino balls were bred last year do you think? Or spiders? Or Pastaves, Bumblebees, etc? I mean hell, bumblebees are a double codom. You can get them 1st generation. Demand isn't increasing as fast as supply. Hence price dropping. Yeah I'll pay a bit more for really nice animals but if you want me to pay double going market rate...or even 50% above...probably not happening.

What I see as the downward pressure on prices:
Overbreeding (more some species than others). How many thousands of ball pythons and boas and leos and beardies were bred last year? Even basic morphs and basic combos.

Bad economy: if I don't have the money, I can't spend it. Period. I don't have 5,000 right now, so I'm not buying any 5,000 dollar snakes. No matter how good a deal that is.

Oversaturation of morphs (in some species). how many ball and boa morphs are there? How many choices do I have if I just want a neat looking ball? If there's umpteen dozen morphs (and god knows how many combos) that may decrease what morphs sell for.

The other thing to consider is those that do this as their main source of income vs. those that do it for fun and have a "real job" elsewhere. Their reptile endeavor is then subsidized by their real job, and like with any subsidy they can withstand lower market values without a need to drop their prices.

Paul,
I am absolutely in agreement about perceived values.
Here's an example of the situation I was talking about...
Let's say I breed a pair of snakes, and get a litter of 20+ babies. done that They're pretty nice looking, and have the potential to be homozygous for their color/pattern morph; so I review the current pricing, and price them accordingly - with the average ones being right in the competitive mix, and the best ones being priced higher (say at, or slightly above, the the advertised pricing for "comparable" specimens). done that, too
My ad is up, and I see somebody post an ad for $10 less than my cheap ones (these aren't expensive animals here)....what are you going to do - happens all the time. A couple days later, that same person drops his price $15. A week later, another person jumps into the mix at just a couple dollars lower; then the first guy redoes his ad to include shipping in his price. I pull my ads, because I'm clearly not going to sell my animals in that environment, but the competition continues. A couple months later, there are only a few people advertising these snakes - and I'm confident that mine are better than most of what I'm seeing. Prices seem to have settled at around $25 less than where I had started my cheap stuff (but, frankly, those "ugly ducklings" have blossomed, so I still think they're worth the original price)...but there doesn't seem to be much acceptance of a tiered pricing scheme. I can accept that perhaps my pricing on the better quality (probable homozygous) snakes was a bit optimistic; but current trends seem to indicate that they are worth no more than visual hets, and I disagree with that.
At this point, I'm in a no win situation. I can practically give away great snakes, and contribute the problem...or I can say screw it and not put them back on the market, knowing full well that the prices are not likely to rebound (especially with spring babies right around the corner, and the whole cycle about to repeat itself). Odds are that as they mature, and the color comes in, I will get a better price; but that will obviously be offset by maintenance costs. I don't HAVE to sell anything. I am not reliant on these sales to pay my mortgage or put food on my table. I have space to accommodate these babies for at least two years, even factoring in other animals I will breed during that period.

I am, perhaps, one of the people that both confirms and denies your statement because my acceptable period of time is not as limited as many people's. Less than half of the litter I've been referring to would sell within a month at my desired prices; so one could argue that they are not worth my price...but I am confident that they are worth more than the market trend, and that discerning buyers will recognize that as the snakes mature a bit. (The whole thing would be pretty easy if I was willling to sell off the cream of the crop right off the bat, compromise on the mid range, then figure out what to do with the lower end animals later - but THIS year, I wasn't willing to do that)

but there doesn't seem to be much acceptance of a tiered pricing scheme.

I've noticed this in the hobby as a whole and it kind of saddens me.


I would say in your case, if you're willing to wait then no they haven't been to be worth less than your asking; you're willing to hold on to them rather than lower your price so they're still worth it to you...even they're not to buyers. But if you have to move them in 3 or 4 weeks...then yeah, they're only worth what you can get people to pay.

I'm one of those guys that breeds because I enjoy dealing with the babies, and watching them mature. When the time comes to sell them, they'll go....they always do.
It's kind of funny, in a way - some species I routinely keep around for 6-12 months before I even think about advertising them; some species and morphs I'm less enamoured with, I push out the door as soon as I can manage it. (With the group above, I wasn't all that happy with the appearance of about 1/3 of the babies - that's how they came to be advertised in the first place. I'm really glad that I pulled the ad, when I did, though, because I'm really enjoying watching them develop. The way their colors are developing is pretty impressive, and I can't deny a that a few of them have really surprised me. Too bad their appearance varies so much over the course of a day)


(had to edit to correct one statement: sometimes I do start selling even my favorite species more quickly, despite my enjoyment...the babies just come at a time when I am stretched to my limits, so I have to reduce the workload; and at times it is strictly a business decision - ie feeding 50-100 baby bullsnakes for 6 months just isn't worthwhile from a cost perspective, and its not like they change in appearance much as they grow.)

hi'Kellih,I have'nt been in the lizard buiss in a while.I used to do water dragons and green and brown basalisk beardies etc.The problem I had was everyone wanted top notch reptiles for nothing.Their were times I had to sell for nothing because no one wanted to spend alot of money,and this was 10 years ago.Now with the problems in the economy I could'nt imagin what it feels like.I guess like kids in school going thrue fads reptiles go thrue popularity contests,up one day down the next,but here lately it seems all are going down,G' lets hope not.the balls im working with could produce a new morph like the world of reptiles has never seen.Thats all I need is for everything to come crashing down.