New price order?

Waaa waaa sniffle sniffle waaa.

Maybe someday you will grow up and and be a big enough person to look in the mirror and be honest with yourself.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

When you make a "blanket" statement and someone disagrees with you, pointing out why I might ad, it is not an attack, it's a discussion.

If you make a statement, stand beind that statement, or if you feel you might be wrong, say so. Your inability to do either of those things is apalling.

You are the first person to pull the "poor me" card and start waving it around. You are the one who seems incapable of conducting a civil conversation around here. Because someone doesn't agree with every utterance you make does not label them a troll.

Oh and one more thing (Kelly's probably going to fall out of her chair) out of two pair and one trio of Leos last year I got 56 viable eggs and hatchlings. I had six eggs go bad (incubators and cats don't mix).

The parents are still with me and happy and healthy this year taking a break from breeding--not because I don't think they'll do well and maintain their health--but because I simply don't have room for any more babies.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

You are such a fucking idiot. You're the one making ad hominen arguments. You've never defended any of your viewpoints, nor have you even understood other people's responses to you. You've done nothing but convey an undeserved sense of arrogance and condescension. It's simply amazing how ignorant you are of how you act, and how you carry yourself on this site. This isn't something that only "trolls" feel, I'm sure people can stand you in the everyday world either. We've just been honest enough to call you out on your shit. It's awfully tiresome having to read inane, thoughtless, wrong, and condescending posts from someone who DOESN'T KNOW SHIT!

Fuck, gain some perspective. We all don't dislike you just because we don't agree with you sometimes. It's because your opinions aren't based on anything but your uninformed hunches and hearsay.

FUCK you are annoying.

Originally Posted by jayefbe

You are such a fucking idiot. You're the one making ad hominen arguments. You've never defended any of your viewpoints, nor have you even understood other people's responses to you. You've done nothing but convey an undeserved sense of arrogance and condescension. It's simply amazing how ignorant you are of how you act, and how you carry yourself on this site. This isn't something that only "trolls" feel, I'm sure people can stand you in the everyday world either. We've just been honest enough to call you out on your shit. It's awfully tiresome having to read inane, thoughtless, wrong, and condescending posts from someone who DOESN'T KNOW SHIT!

Fuck, gain some perspective. We all don't dislike you just because we don't agree with you sometimes. It's because your opinions aren't based on anything but your uninformed hunches and hearsay.

FUCK you are annoying.

Whoops, I'm gonna get it for that. I thought I was in hell.

Yep, please be more careful. Let's keep it in hell and get back to the original topic.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

So, the personal attacks going on here are either invisible to you, or A-OK? Gotcha...
I wasn't aware Ad-Hominem was permitted all over the forums here. Now I know. Since I personally see no point in taking part in any debate where such tactics are used and supported, there's really no point in my posting in any debate, anywhere on this forum.

The 'experience' of the people I am disagreeing with apparently is with beating down dissenting voices rather than making reasoned supporting posts for their positions. The sad part is that I haven't actually disagreed with the people who are launching attacks on me here, save on the small point that it takes longer to start a selectively-bred line of ball pythons than one pairing, and that you need to hold back a lot of animals to do it properly. (Essentially, no matter how spiffy your starting morph stock, if you're breeding a morph to a normal, you can't predict the quality of the resulting hatchlings--because very few people are keeping track of bloodlines on normals).

Yes, you can start out with top of the line morph stock, but you might still wind up with some animals that don't look the way you intended, depending on random traits contributed by any normals you pair them with. That was my only point of disagreement with them.

Because juvenile tactics are allowed here, what's the point in even trying to give an opinion? A reasoned position is worthless if the winner is the person who can make their opponents look bad through personal attacks, and not the one who actually makes logical points.

So, I'm giving up. Doubtless some of these folks will congratulate each other on having driven off yet another person they don't like. If you think experience has something to do with it, you're deluded. These folks don't actually know what my experience level is, beyond the fact that I have bred a few trios of leopard geckos, and have started last season with ball pythons. They don't know how long I have been keeping reptiles, or what species. None of that actually mattered to them. I'm not volunteering it, either, because "Oh, well, I bred more than you did, and my collection is X animals bigger than yours!" is not a valid argument either. I'm impressed when someone can actually explain their position using that little thing called logic, and treat others who participate in a debate with respect.

If they can't do that, then I don't care if they are methuselah of reptile-keeping, all the experience in the world isn't going to make what they say worth a dime. 'Because I said so, and you're stupid" just doesn't cut it.

I was enjoying this debate before the trolls descended on it, but now I see that I won't be allowed to enjoy any discussions on this board, since I have pissed those people off. Why bother trying?

I actually do agree with a lot of what you are saying. Part of the problem (as I see it) is we tend to personalize our experiences and state them as fact (they are facts in our experiences).

Stick it out, you'll be fine.

Now about selectively breeding...I do it all the time!! I select and then I breed! I am JOKING fellas.

I have thought the same as you..when it comes to selectively breeding, you can buy a "top of the line" Morph and breed it to a very pretty normal with all the desired traits (blushing, color, temperament) and still throw some "pet" quality animals. From my experience even having two top quality morphs will also not always guarantee quality hatchlings (although my pieds and mojaves were spectacular if i do say so myself).

So simply saying we shouldn't put two "butt-ugly" animals together isn't explaining a lot, because what could be "butt-ugly" to one is not necessarily "butt-ugly" to someone else.

But this is all old news to these "older heads" and nothing new. Humor us as we try and wrestle our way though what we are learning, please?

But this is all old news to these "older heads" and nothing new. Humor us as we try and wrestle our way though what we are learning, please?

You know what, I like what you said there.
We were all newbies once.

Originally Posted by KelliH

You know what, I like what you said there.
We were all newbies once.

It's just that there is a little bit of difference in saying "I'm sorta new" to whatever, and telling everyone around you, they are wrong, She is right, we're all bashing her, although nobody else can see it, because we must all be blind.

The former shows a bit of maturity, and ownership of your ignorance. That's not a bad thing at all, and also deserving of a little extra patience.

Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus

It's just that there is a little bit of difference in saying "I'm sorta new" to whatever, and telling everyone around you, they are wrong, She is right, we're all bashing her, although nobody else can see it, because we must all be blind.

The former shows a bit of maturity, and ownership of your ignorance. That's not a bad thing at all, and also deserving of a little extra patience.

Totally agree, and this is the point I was crudely trying to make earlier. I do also want to apologize for my aforementioned post, it was totally inappropriate for this forum. I forgot where I was and wouldn't have spoken so strongly otherwise.