Inbreeding

Originally Posted by Seamus Haley

Which should really be the focal point of the discussions about the mutation. When i got to the other thread, it was already six pages (Er... I set it to the maximum for posts per page) long and already full of the same kind of back and forth accusations and general failure to differentiate between BOI topics and discussion forum topics that will lead to this thread also being locked. So I didn't add anything.

Offhand I'd call it a negative mutation that would lead to a lower quality of life though. I'm basing this on a few things- many of which are going to be assumptions- evidenced assumptions, but assumptions nonetheless.

Reptile scales have evolved along with the animal to fill a few biological advantages. The obvious one of protecting the animal's skin from harm is much less of an issue in a captive population that will never... ever... see anything but captivity and with human control over their environment. The questions about tears during breeding were valid and went unanswered though- beardies, along with any number of other species, can break skin during the course of breeding when the female has *normal* protective scalation; it seems logical to assume that risk goes up when the scales aren't present. Above and beyond that though, scales are important physiologically, foremost in my mind would be their role in moisture repulsion and retention, especially in a desert species like the vitticeps. I'd have a lot of questions about the ability of the animal to stay properly hydrated in a heated enclosure... and the ability of the scaleless animal to have a proper immune response against bacterial and fungal dermatitis if they're kept in an environment that's more humid (and high humidity isn't usually great for the resiratory system of a low humidity species). UV use and damage is a concern as well, they're a species which is particularly noted for their UVB requirements to maintain proper vitamin D synthesis and absorbtion, however UVB can also do considerable damage to tissue that isn't supposed to be hit by light. Is it even possible to maintain a balance between all the conditions a bearded dragon's body needs and has adapted to utilize... and the gimped requirements that a handicap like scalelessness would force? On paper, it's looking unlikely at best, impossible at worst.

I'd also have a lot of concerns about shedding. The scaleless mutation exists in a few snake species and they are known to be very, very prone to shedding issues. While rubbing, they'll sometimes tear additional layers of skin... since there is no additional layer scale beneath the one that's being sloughed. Also they will frequently "doughnut" where the shed will roll back on itself rather than turning inside out or tearing. This will sometimes end up constricting around the center of a scaleless snake, potentially causing injury if it's not *immediately* seen and dealt with. While the midbody sheds of a beardy aren't likely to have the same issues due to the shape, I'd worry a great deal about the limbs and digits.

Given that all logic would suggest a lower quality of life, my personal response would have been immediate euthanasia, a halt to all projects that could potentially reproduce the defective mutations and a massive warning issued through all avaliable sources that this negative outcome was possible... If euthanasia was an unswallowable option, then the initial animals displaying the deformity should have been kept virginal and observed for an extended period of time to determine just how signifigant an impact it had on the quality of life for the animals afflicted- and that should have been a period equal to the full natural life span of all avaliable specimins before any efforts were undertaken to duplicate the trait. That is to say that the quality is so obviously a negative one that proof should have to be provided that it does *not* result in numerous problems and difficulties, rather than a demand for proof that it does.

Matter of perspective I guess. Some people feel ethically obligated to actively attempt to improve a captive population through their breeding efforts and some people wouldn't know what morals were if they came up and bit them in the face. That (hopefully obviously) isn't so much directed at you Kelli, I know you're as upstanding as they come- but when one is aware of the issues that scaleless snakes have and adds in the extra attention to certain captive conditions that are demanded by a beardie's pysiological needs, I don't see how anyone can possibly come to a conclusion that this mutation is anything but negative and damaging.

I totally agree with what is said here. I personally think this should be taken over to the BOI so we can get some answers.


Jack

You could look at the 2 breeders that have come forward. and learn from that there is an issue. There has been more breeders but most of them shut their doors as to not face what Tere and Wendy have and be treated like total crap.
I took the lead of Wendy and I had mine tested before my planned breeding was done to prevent this from happening now or a year or whenever from now. Its being responsible wanting the best on the market. and Sorry but infected dragons arent the best. I love my dragons but I dont want to sell babies that are infected and them end up sick like so many dragons I have worked with. That wouldnt be fair to them

Originally Posted by mikey

How are you so certain that husbandry was not a factor?

Give me the perfect husbandry and I can find you a dragon with an issue. It isnt husbandry thats doing it. The husbandry in 99% of the dragons that I know of has been perfect. and still issues.

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Two breeders with problems in their colony do not make for a plague. Come on guys! Lets have it right now! Who has proof? Lets hear from the masses who have had their dragons die from adeno. Lets get it all out in the open for everyone to see. Lets hear from the vets involved. I am sure that they are working closely with you to control this plague - so lets have them come forward, as they are the knowlegable ones.

Oh, wait - Bruce already tried this approach, and there were no masses that came forward...so where are they?

Jamie

Okay. See what you're doing right now? Don't you think your ATTITUDE has kept people who have had issues from coming forward? Heck, positive or negative, people are scared to death to say a word. I've received SEVERAL emails from people experiencing die-offs from Adenovirus. Would I expect those people to come forward and put up with this crap? NO!

Wait a minute...you're questioning me about this "plague" of Adenovirus...but all dragons have it. You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by mikey

How are you so certain that husbandry was not a factor?

And how are you so certain that it wasn't?

If it was so husbandry related, tell me how we raised hundreds of other babies, and never had an issue, with no changes to husbandry whatsoever.

If it was so husbandry related, the large breeders are having issues and not talking about it because both Wendy and I learned our husbandry from them.

If it was so husbandry related, how do you explain two dragons in one cage, both Adeno positive, one struggling to live, one doing fine?

Stop trying to come up with excuses. And please...until you deal with an Adeno positive animal...DO NOT CRITICIZE ME.

Originally Posted by Saladragon

And how are you so certain that it wasn't?

If it was so husbandry related, tell me how we raised hundreds of other babies, and never had an issue, with no changes to husbandry whatsoever.

If it was so husbandry related, the large breeders are having issues and not talking about it because both Wendy and I learned our husbandry from them.

If it was so husbandry related, how do you explain two dragons in one cage, both Adeno positive, one struggling to live, one doing fine?

Stop trying to come up with excuses. And please...until you deal with an Adeno positive animal...DO NOT CRITICIZE ME.

Did you quarantine Mike's dragon's when they came into your home before putting them in with your stock?

I have read over both threads and would like to just type out my opinion on this.

I disagree with inbreeding in general, I would not do this if I breed any animal, which I do not. Therefor have a limited knowledge of genetics and even less of bearded dragon genetics. I'm just a owner. Personally because of inbreeding if I get another dragon I will not get a "pure" morph like a sandfire or citrus or flame ext. Because these come from inbreeding and a even smaller then the small US bloodline.

Sundial Reptile has a great point and Ill quote this from there site.

"We have put great care into our bearded dragon breeders and babies. With a lot of questionable breeding ethics in the bearded dragon market today, we are happy to offer our stock with integrity.

We have raised 95% of our breeders from hatchling size. Our adult groups come from a variety of sources and are unrelated to avoid problems commonly attributed to inbreeding. We do not practice color fixing, inbreeding, or line breeding for high color as has become common practice today. We outcross all of our dragons for hardiness and genetic diversity. We believe that inbreeding for high coloration has resulted in dragons that are weaker, smaller, and more prone to a variety of problems. And it is only getting worse. And why, when we can still produce colorful babies at the same time diversify the gene pool? This is why you will not see us crossing two like colors (ie. red x red or sandfire x sandfire). This is also why we are able to offer you a wide variety of color and patterning. We also try to use a lot of German blood in our bloodlines for additional diversity, hardiness, and size."(http://sundialreptile.com/aboutus.htm under "about our bearded dragons")

This I think shows a good way to get color. Look at there dragons they don't have any pure morphs yet still have the colors of some. If it comes to getting another dragon this will be a breeder I look into.

I understand the small bloodlines in the US. Just think about it. You have unrelated but eventually cross together because each time a generation breeds it cuts down the unrelated genepool. But you can still wait 10 or so generations before inbreeding then wait another 10 to prevent problems. This is not what is happening because breeders don't have time to wait 10 generations they need the morphs now and that is causing problems.

With adeno-virus and inbreeding dragons in the US are weakening even more. And I have seen this through my own dragon. I do not know exactly where it came from but am 90% sure. And if it is then there is probably inbreeding in its line and possibly adenovirus. I believe this for 2 reasons. My dragons health problems and that the breeder I believe hatched her breeds translucent which are from inbreeding and is a large scale business not a breeder IMO. I have not tested her but me and my vet plan on getting her tested, Not that I want to breed her but because of the problems shes had. I will never breed her for the reasons above.

I always wonder why In leopard geckos and snakes you never see any albino x _____ or _________ x _________ So is inbreeding causing this or is there different names for crosses. The only ones I see are Hypo Tangerine. I know in corn snakes there are separate names though.

I call silkbacks a mutant because they are a genetic mutation and I don't consider super pastel ball pythons or albino geckos this because it does not effect there level of care as much as it does silkbacks. Silkbacks contradict the very thing beardies need. UVB. without it you have MBD problems. As of now there is no substitute for a UV light. Calcium with D3 helps but will not prevent it. The same goes for albino Beardies. They were hatched and all died because they cant have UV rays on them. So basically a dragon has been created that can not get the very thing it needs and craves. It is asking for trouble.

I am not trying to take sides. Nor start more of a fight than there already is. I would like to continue the educated discusion that is going on because I am learning a lot from it. So if anyone is wondering I am Against breeding Silkbacks, I'm against breeding Adeno positive or not tested dragons and I'm against inbreeding. I'm also against breeding for money. Or breeding for morphs.

Animals are not here to make money for us. They are here just like us. To live out our lives the best we can and survive. It may not seem like it to some. I have it when people say animals are here to serve us. We are a mammal a class of animals we just are more intelligent then others and more civilized.

I believe if silkbacks go into the market people will buy them because they look cool. Because they want something different. Its a trend, and animals should not be trends. Its like the tea cup Chihuahuas which are breed using the runts of the litter. Now they are a hit. I hate fads. Especially when animals are involved. Nothing should be weakend so the public likes it or for money.

With the government going into homes inspecting reptiles. I disagree but here in Mass a law may be passed so government goes into petstore and inspects. That is the extent that is good. Personally I don't want the government to tell us how to take care of beardies because if you look at the beardies at the national zoo in DC they are on a sand/gravel mix and 6 adults are housed together in a 6x3 cage and 3 are males the other 3 are small females that are about 15 inches long.

OK sorry for the HUGE rant.

Looking forward to future discussion on this thread.
Ben

Originally Posted by mikey

Did you quarantine Mike's dragon's when they came into your home before putting them in with your stock?

Nope. I was a fool, and I trusted. If you know about that, you also know my house is tiny, and I didn't have anywhere else to put them.

I'm not real sure I understand your point, unless you're just trying to make another distraction. Not a real good way to go, though, Jean. I'm pretty sure all his dragons came from Dachiu.

Besides that, Mike says it was me who infected his dragons.

Wanna try to explain how I'm to blame for trying to help someone out? Are we going to go into this again? Talk about childish.

Hello,

Come on people, that is completely ridiculous! The people who had had terrible problems with adenovirus, they come forward to try & help the community, & what do they get ridiculed!! What is wrong with you people anyway?
Do you think that they wanted to come forward & tell everyone they had this problem because it was fun? I hardly doubt it, as it was heartbreaking for them! Can you not have any sympathy at all? I am so tired of it. AS you all were proved wrong when everyone said, oh, all dragons have adeno, but that is just not true.
However, with that horrible attitude, all dragons certainly will if you have anything to do with it since it doesn't seem to be a problem according to you. This is just disgusting. This whole thing. No wonder no one wants to talk about it, because they get shot down.

Tracie

great post ben!