USARK & Reptile Nation Save 5 of 9 species from FWS Constrictor Rule!

Appears your the only one using the word "overturn"
This petition regardless of "SELF PERCEIVED" value is a
means to let the bast-ages know their are some pissed off
citizens looking very closely at them and that aint good press.

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I must have missed something..........

Who is claiming that if 25K signatures are collected, someone will overturn this?

Who is this person or entity that will overturn it?

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I still must be missing something........

Donna, how exactly did USARK save 5 of 9 species? I have never seen those details outlining what they actually did.

I didn't say that they saved them, I said that they were instrumental in preventing all 9 from being listed now. They helped in cobbling together a very fast estimate of the economic impacts, which contradicted the one that our opponents produced. This MAY have been the reason why only 4 animals were listed (to avoid exceeding the economic impact threshold).

I absolutely agree that this is only a very minor reprieve, and not a win, because there's nothing at present to stop them from listing the rest, in small numbers, to avoid exceeding the economic threshold. They can continue to do so until they get to species that exceed that threshold by themselves.

The lawsuit is our best option. FWS did not follow proper procedure when they listed these animals, and that may enable us to win.

Originally Posted by Metachrosis

Appears your the only one using the word "overturn"
This petition regardless of "SELF PERCEIVED" value is a
means to let the bast-ages know their are some pissed off
citizens looking very closely at them and that aint good press.

Originally Posted by crotalusadamanteus

If we can't get people to voting on the White House Petition, then we don't hope to get this over turned either, because it won't warrant their attention otherwise. 25,000 needed, we haven't hit 4K yet.

Trust me, I didn't put that word there. And I haven't tossed it around on God knows how many forums any untold number of these petition threads are floating around on.

Regardless we seem to be in agreement that the petition will not overturn anything and has no hope of overturning anything. It's now just a way of expressing our collective pissyness.

I also agree that getting 0.004% of the reptile owners in the US to sign a petition that can't undo anything is bad press.

I agree that a good rage should never be wasted. Wasting it on a petition that we agree will do nothing is a shame.

overturned in that post was clearly second agenda in context NO?
Do spare us the pro/con of self perceived intelligence,several recent proclamations
as of late

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

I didn't say that they saved them, I said that they were instrumental in preventing all 9 from being listed now. They helped in cobbling together a very fast estimate of the economic impacts, which contradicted the one that our opponents produced. This MAY have been the reason why only 4 animals were listed (to avoid exceeding the economic impact threshold).

I absolutely agree that this is only a very minor reprieve, and not a win, because there's nothing at present to stop them from listing the rest, in small numbers, to avoid exceeding the economic threshold. They can continue to do so until they get to species that exceed that threshold by themselves.

The lawsuit is our best option. FWS did not follow proper procedure when they listed these animals, and that may enable us to win.

I agree that a challenge in Federal court to debunk the claims the rule change was made on is our best option.

But I don't think $150K is going to cover a Federal lawsuit.........not even close.

Donna, USFWS has already hinted that another rule change will be forthcoming............

Originally Posted by Metachrosis

overturned in that post was clearly second agenda in context NO?

On second glance, I guess I stand corrected. My apologies to Mr. Carew.

Originally Posted by Metachrosis

Do spare us the pro/con of self perceived intelligence,several recent proclamations
as of late

Haiku?

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I agree that a challenge in Federal court to debunk the claims the rule change was made on is our best option.

But I don't think $150K is going to cover a Federal lawsuit.........not even close.

Donna, USFWS has already hinted that another rule change will be forthcoming............

I agree 100%.... but we (The Reptile Nation) are not a big enough entity to affect any future outcome of any elections. Therefore we don't really matter. The ones who make the laws know this...one bad apple (Florida) spoiled the bunch and it wasn't their fault...they just happen to have the perfect environment. We lost 4 species and there will be more to come. I just wonder if it is worth the funds to chase the 4 or focus on the rest to hit the list. I know that overturning the ruling of the 4 would be a major victory but very expensive.

The Ball Python nation is the largest there is in the snake market and probably in the reptile industry all together....but the only ones interested in overturning the ruling are the BP breeders that have something on the list.
There are thousands of BP breeders in the US and if they all came together and donated the price of a pastel female ($100.00) then you would have enough to fight....but it is not going to happen until they see a list from the Gov't listing them as an invasive.

You would not believe the number of breeders and collectors and owners of reptiles that I have contacted in the last few days that had no idea about the ban and really didn't give a crap because they didn't own any on the list.

I am not saying I am giving up...never was that type of person...but I feel like we are playing a game of chess with very few pieces fighting a full board on the other side and all I keep hearing is "CHECK".....
Sorry to rant so long...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Originally Posted by Lair of Dragons

I agree 100%.... but we (The Reptile Nation) are not a big enough entity to affect any future outcome of any elections. Therefore we don't really matter. The ones who make the laws know this...one bad apple (Florida) spoiled the bunch and it wasn't their fault...they just happen to have the perfect environment. We lost 4 species and there will be more to come. I just wonder if it is worth the funds to chase the 4 or focus on the rest to hit the list. I know that overturning the ruling of the 4 would be a major victory but very expensive.

The Ball Python nation is the largest there is in the snake market and probably in the reptile industry all together....but the only ones interested in overturning the ruling are the BP breeders that have something on the list.
There are thousands of BP breeders in the US and if they all came together and donated the price of a pastel female ($100.00) then you would have enough to fight....but it is not going to happen until they see a list from the Gov't listing them as an invasive.

You would not believe the number of breeders and collectors and owners of reptiles that I have contacted in the last few days that had no idea about the ban and really didn't give a crap because they didn't own any on the list.

I am not saying I am giving up...never was that type of person...but I feel like we are playing a game of chess with very few pieces fighting a full board on the other side and all I keep hearing is "CHECK".....
Sorry to rant so long...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Travis:

Without going into too much detail, I have to deal with getting yearly permits from the CDFG and USFWS to maintain roads, levees and drainage systems for a very large and environmentally "sensitive" area.

The Feds wear you down. You jump through one set of hoops to get a permit to vactor out a culvert that has become riparian habitat and then they change their rules and set the hoop on fire and ask you to backflip through it.

http://www.sparselysageandtimely.com/blog/?p=8739

7 years to get a permit to restore critical salmonid habitat that turned into red-legged frog habitat. The last three years which resulted in severe flooding cutting off a whole community for days at a time and causing thousands of dollars of damage.

They delay decisions so long that a habitat for one endangered species declines and when you go to restore it, you can't because a threatened species has moved in. Their policies are haphazard, their studies are flawed and I have watched whole communities from Counties to Cities to State Agencies to State Senators bump up against them and lose.

We have taken them to commissions and we have taken them to court. Things never get resolved. The process of debunking their studies is difficult because the judges that hear the cases are laymen and often don't know good science from bad science.

The whole processing of challenging their rules and regulations is time consuming, frustrating and they know it. They beat whole communities down with it.

I guess I'm looking for USARK to chime in here, on their subforum, with the best course of action. I suspect it will be on the lines of hiring a lawyer and challenging their data - but what we all have to be prepared for is a lot more frustration, a lot more rage and long periods where nothing happens.

That's why, in my opinion, it is vital to have some positive direction at this point. Everybody is mad. Everyone wants to do something positive to make a change. I just think we run several risks both with maintaining our focus and in the eyes of those who would take more from us, by engaging in acts which may get us nowhere.

The reptile nation may not be huge, but when you add it to the invertebrate nation, the freshwater fish nation, the saltwater fish nation and all the other exotic pet "nations" and the companies that supply them I think we can muster up quite a voice.

I've danced around the edges of criticizing USARK because aside from their propaganda blasts, we don't hear a lot about strategy. Aside from their controversial "model legislation" I see a group that is perhaps forced to be more reactive than proactive.

Maybe I'd feel better if they outlined exactly where we go from here and how they are building a coalition to get us there. Their lack of presence here, when people are itching to act, concerns me.

Originally Posted by Skiploder

Travis:

Maybe I'd feel better if they outlined exactly where we go from here and how they are building a coalition to get us there. Their lack of presence here, when people are itching to act, concerns me.

Your not the only one....but in all reality who else do we have to depend on that can help or is willing to help. If there was a list of organizations willing to help then I am sure funds would be split up between all of them...but there is not. The one who want to donate are not sure that USARK is the best place to invest and no one likes to waist money.
At this point they are like the only local fire department and our house is on fire...question is how much can they save.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

I know some people aren't very enthusiastic about the White House petition, but bear in mind that this IS a presidential election year, and IF enough people raise a voice, especially to the office that SHOULD be in a supervisory position for all of the agencies in the federal government, there is at least a possibility of getting some attention. Maybe not overturning the current ban, but perhaps giving some pause about extending and expanding the ban to cover even more IF those powers in charge feel that the gains aren't worth the headaches it will cause them.

Besides, it's a focusing point and a method to call attention to an issue that quite a few people know nothing about. I've gotten email replies from quite a few folks that didn't know this was going on. So regardless of the nay-sayers, it IS raising much needed awareness.

Yeah, certainly maybe nothing will come of it. But if you have a candidate running for public office looking at a petition signed by 25,000 VOTERS, well, that IS going to at least get some sort of response to try not to flatly piss them all off. 25,000 votes CAN make or break a close election.

Hell, this site alone has nearly 60,000 registered members, all of whom that have not opted out for such notices have been emailed the link to that petition. I'm sure there are a lot of bogus or expired email accounts tied to these accounts, but still, just this site alone SHOULD be able to reach enough people to EASILY get that 25,000 signature goal met. If not, well, in my opinion, there will NEVER be enough cohesiveness in this industry to fight ANYTHING on a federal level. We will forever be completely at the mercy of whatever hoops those bureaucrats demand that we jump through, no matter how trivial or insane. Just suck it up and face a simple fact and get on with your life. WE DO NOT COUNT IN THE BIG PICTURE.....

Right now there are only 4,345 signatures on that petition. And that is for FREE to all interested parties who want to sign it. How many do you SERIOUSLY think will dig deep into their pockets for a federal lawsuit that will pretty much be a bottomless pit for YEARS to throw money into, if the bulk of the people in this industry can't even be motivated to sign a petition to show SOME solidarity that doesn't even cost them a nickel?