local herp laws and shows

Evan,
You are right, it is easy to obtain copies of the laws and the paperwork associated with them.  But just as all tax laws and forms are available and easily accessable to everyone, you have to have some idea of what you need. I have asked very specific questions to some of these agencies on how cetain laws are defined and supported...only to get a runaround.
As I said in my earlier post, it is all about the interpretation of the laws that are written for reptiles.  They are vague and open to many forms of application, especially since many were written so long ago with lack of the knowledge of the things we have learned since.  
True, these agencies have to give you the info you request, but just because they enforce these laws does not necessarily mean they know how to properly do so.  Every one of us is left open to the possibility that they will become victim to a loophole.

Steve,

I didn't know that such signs were present when those vendors received their citations for small turtles.  Thanks for the info!

However, if that is the case, I would LOVE to be the attorney for those who were cited!  How in the world can you cite someone for doing "X" when the controlling law says explicitly that you can do "X"?

It seems to me that not only could you have such a citation thrown out before a judge, but restitution for a show's lost earnings might also be in order.  Of course, that assumes a fair shot at justice when it comes to the court system and governmental agencies, but we can always dream!  If I were one of those vendors, I would settle for having the citations thrown out, I suppose.

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I certainly don't know all of the circumstances of what happened but I do have an answer to one specific question that was asked by Darin. The questions was: &quot;However, if that is the case, I would LOVE to be the attorney for those who were cited! &nbsp;How in the world can you cite someone for doing &quot;X&quot; when the controlling law says explicitly that you can do &quot;X&quot;?&quot;

Actually the answert o that is pretty simple, the law enforcement agency will attempt to show that in fact the alleged violators were only saying they were doing X while in fact they were doing Y which is the violation. For instance in this case theLEOs &nbsp;wil say sure they had signs up saying they would only sell for educational purposes but we have video tape of them selling to numerous kids, or people who are not in education or science etc... In fact we sent in three undercover officers who bought undersized turtles from them and the officers were never questioned as to whether or not they were using the turtles for bonafide educational purposes or scientific purposes. Furthermore our officers told the vendor that the turtles were being purchased as pets. I mean do you really think that someone selling under sized turtles or tortoises is not going to sell to someone claiming to be buying it as a pet for their kid? I witness it repeatedly at shows.

It would be as easy as pie to catch these guys with their pants down so to speak, but I don't really know why a law enforcement or regulatory agency would really bother. &nbsp;As for the law itself, I think it is a stupid law as you are more likely to get salmonella from a fryer chicken but what can you do?. Contact your elected officials and have the law repealed. Every now and then I send in such correspondence, but I guess it falls on deaf ears or that not enough of us do so on a repeated basis to make a difference.

By the way it is my understanding it is absolutely legal, on the federal level, to own an under 4 inch turtle so long as you do not intend to distribute or sell it and so long as it is not a protected species. I got this scoop a few years ago from FDA, Agriculture and F&amp;WS officials with whom I worked.
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Glenn,

You are absolutely right. &nbsp;If those people had signs up merely as a formality, but were actually violating the law, then they deserved to be busted. &nbsp;What I was saying is that if I had 3.5&quot; turtles, and was selling them only to those who had bona fide situations, then the fact that some people lied to me about their bona fides, is not something for which I would be criminally liable. &nbsp;As long as I was following the law to the best of my ability, I would expect not to be cited, and if I were, I would expect it to be thrown out. That's all I was saying.

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evan,

Thanks for the tips and the encouraging words. &nbsp;I have not sought the information you have and certainly not at the level or volume you have. &nbsp;My problems stem from local officials mostly, and I (perhaps wrongly) extrapolated that to higher government offices. &nbsp;I hope that if I ever decide to become more involved in selling at shows my experiences will be as easy as yours.

To &nbsp;Darin &amp; Glenn

A while ago it was posted that some vendors were having all their customers sign afidavits that they were going to use their baby turtles for educational or research purposes. &nbsp;It was also suggested that as a buyer you should not sign one since if you say you are going to use it for educational purposes and then you don't you could be in trouble. &nbsp; I don't know if that is still a common practice or not, or if the posting of signs has taken its place.

Also Glenn, I believe you are right about owning &nbsp;turtles under 4&quot;s the question is, is it legal to purchase them from a vendor such as turtle town, even if you have no intention of using them for education or research. &nbsp;Of course that could make you an accessory since you are knowingly causing someone else to commit a crime. &nbsp;The plot thickens


Steve Schindler

Steve, the vast majority of the bad/vague/nonsense laws that are in existence are at the county/city/town level. State and federal authorities have a decided interest in keeping thing straight forward and simple as well as helping people avoid problems to begin with due to the tremendous area and volume of work they have with very little staff and financial resources. It is at those smaller more focused level of govenment that stupid laws are enacted by people who have to feel much more powerful than they truly are.

I had to fight the city that I live in a couple years ago in court over a bizarre and nonsense law that boiled down to people not even being able to have goldfish or hamsters if you went by the letter of the poorly worded law. After many trips to court and much grief, I won and the judge threw out my citation for keeping reptiles. Evan

Steve,

I am pretty certain that it is not illegal to buy under sized turtles - just to sell them - as the law is written; however you are right about you possibly becoming an accessory to a crime by doing so. You are not causing the other guys to commit the crime, after all he decided to sell them in the first place, but you certainly are making it happen by buying them. It really is a silly law that was well intentioned but just dumb from the get go.

As far as the other topic of whether of not promoters should post the rules; I am going to my society's 13th annual show tomorrow. I just received the show info and there is just about one whole page of information about what types of herps are prohibited, and there are blurbs elsewhere in the journal about the same rules. It surprises me that every promoter is not as responsible as they seem to be back here in NY. I imagine it may have to do with enforcement of the rules by state game officers, and other regulatory agencies. I think they check pretty often back this way. Hopefully this will catch on elsewhere.

Darin,

I hear you on that and I agree. Sometimes regulatory and enforcement officials are just a bit to eager to lock someone up or make a seizure and hand out a fine.

Well, I've contemplated this one for a few years and still don't have a good answer. &nbsp;

The part I love is the signed waiver from the buyer stating &quot;for scientific or educational purposes.&quot; &nbsp;With the expansion of home-schooling across the country and an even greater popularity of school &quot;home science&quot; projects which often conclude late in the school year with science fairs then this could easily become a moot law.

First, the parents are usually the home school &quot;teacher&quot; and sets the extensions to the curriculum which could easily include long-term care of a turtle under the FDA 4&quot; rule. &nbsp;The scientific issue could be a short-term project lasting only a few weeks/months or a long-term project with a goal of more than a year or 2. &nbsp;It is not up to the vendor to delve that deeply once the waiver is signed, especially if it specifically states that the purchaser is not buying the turtle for a &quot;pet.&quot; &nbsp;Long-term goals on a buyer's part could include care and maintenence, differences in growth rates under various conditions, you name the study and it's yours. &nbsp;It is also more reasonable and &quot;believeable&quot; if the seller were to provide some sort of charting sheet for feeding and growth rate tracking as a starting point. &nbsp;While this would increase the seller's investment costs a few cents for each copy distributed with a sale, it would be yet one more document to assist in covering their backsides.

Glad to hear any feedback on this issue as it has become much more important to me since I'm working out details for a swap/expo here on a regular basis and don't want to deal with these issues in an ugly aftermath.

David Jobes
Double &quot;D&quot; Reptiles
Stigler, OK

Just a note on the 4&quot; turtles... spam_In our area enforcement of the shell-length law is done by the County Health Dept., and several times at our earlier shows their inspectors were there with calipers measuring and threatening to seize turtles that were only 1/8&quot; under 4&quot;. spam_It's a rather silly law, but as a promoter I have to abide by local regulations, as well as those imposed by the state and federal govt. spam_ Reptile show promoters would be wise to double-check the county and local regulations... it is easy to get tripped up! spam_Another example is that they prohibit scorpions and &quot;dangerous&quot; arachnids (no definition of dangerous, of course&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>.....

Bruce Lowder