Power feeding

oh i forgot to mention the blue print for protein synthesis is DNA... where transcription takes place... and then translation from RNA.

also we know that all our tissues are made of proteins.


below is a detailed summery of the whole process of building proteins:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...scription.html

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...anslation.html

it is hard for me to see how loading the bloodstream with nutrients would make this process work harder, faster, and produce more protein.

This is starting to show the potential to turn into a discussion (I knew it was there, just not if people would make it happen, lol). There is plenty here to expand on...and more that hasn't even been mentioned yet. Keep the thoughts coming, and I'll be back later to fill a few more things in and pull some thoughts together.

Do you know how to trigger a shed cycle in a snake?

Originally Posted by Junkyard

Do you know how to trigger a shed cycle in a snake?

You mean on demand/at will? No. But I do know that there are a number of things that can induce a snake to shed sooner than expected based on growth. Temperature; antibiotic, or other medical treatment; hormonal shifts...I'm sure that there are more, but I am stealing time and want to address as many things as I can in the time I have.

WHAT IS POWERFEEDING?
The idea of defining/quantifying powerfeeding is not as simple as one might initially think. I feel that way because different animals are geared to grow in different ways. There are many out there that will insist that if you are feeding more than one prey item every 14 days you are powerfeeding (or at least overfeeding). To that I say: piffle. Powerfeeding, IMO & as I mentioned before, is the act of trying to "push" a snake's growth rate well beyond normal & is usually associated with getting them to breeding size in the shortest time possible (I'll address your comment/question regarding that shortly, Brian) or out of the desire to maximize growth for whatever personal reasons they may have...whether it is accomplished via frequency of feedings, # of prey items, size of prey items, or (as is frequently the case) a combination of those factors. As Michael mentioned, a common technique is chain feeding, which is the act of inserting another prey item as the snake is in the process of swallowing one. As for the statement

you really cant force a snake (or power feed) to eat more than its body can handle.

- I have to disagree. Look at the practice of chainfeeding - it is nothing more than a means to get extra food into a snake (though the practice does have benefits in other areas, but that is for another discussion). If the snake only wants to take 1 or 2 items, and someone chains in 1 or 2 extras, that is effectively forcing them. Too much food in the gut can cause several immediately lifethreating problems, including (but not limited to): digestive problems - ie digestion vs rot, or decreased peristaltic effect; regurgitation; esophageal rupture; gastric rupture; bowel obstruction; perforated bowel.

Brian mentioned the role of hormone release in affecting growth. This is a very good point...but keep in mind that the typical targets for powerfeeding are babies - subadults. These already have the growth hormone happening, because their bodies want to grow. Also, things like light cycles and temperatures can affect hormone production/release. And since the temperatures are likely being kept high anyway to stimulate appetite and speed digestion, the growth hormone may well be a necessary biproduct.

On the subject of age vs size for reproduction...I don't think most people would argue that there are more benefits to allowing the snake to reach an appropriate reproductive age. But that doesn't mean that a young female of sufficient size cannot be bred. The clutches/litters are likely to be smaller, and have more unfertilized ova; and there is likely to be a larger physical toll on the female...but it can be done. Examples of this are widespread - I have seen many threads scolding someone for breeding leopard geckos too young, and have been present when 12 year old girls give birth (present in the line of duty, of course)

I know there were more things I wanted to touch on, but I am out of time (not to mention that I have somewhat lost track of things). It's your turn!

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Too much food in the gut can cause several immediately lifethreating problems, including (but not limited to): digestive problems - ie digestion vs rot, or decreased peristaltic effect; regurgitation; esophageal rupture; gastric rupture; bowel obstruction; perforated bowel.

Let's not forget the exploding Burm in the Everglades!!!! Sorry, I could not help myself, I was all caught up in the immediate danger snakes are too humans....

Harald, this seems to be a subject that hits the right chord with you. Great posts. My question on triggering a shed cycle in a snake does go in hand with powerfeeding, which is why I asked. I was speaking to a gentleman about his Burms and Retics (of which he has many) and this cool thing he can do with any snake, he can make them start their shed cycle.

He told me that if a snake were to be fed a prey size almost too large for them to eat, it will start the shed cycle and three weeks later the snake will shed. I am guilty of trying this, though a lesson that I have learned works. I fed a jumbo rat to a snake that was eating large rats, three weeks later it shed. I fed a jumbo mouse to a snake that was eating large mice, three weeks later it shed. I monitor my snakes and how often they shed, it was a surprise to learn this. It does work. We know that a snake sheds as it grows, now imagine that snake shedding every 3 weeks like clockwork. There is a sign of powerfeeding.

That is what I watched my boa do that I mentioned earlier. Every three weeks she was shedding even though she was on a diet.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Brian mentioned the role of hormone release in affecting growth. This is a very good point...but keep in mind that the typical targets for powerfeeding are babies - subadults. These already have the growth hormone happening, because their bodies want to grow. Also, things like light cycles and temperatures can affect hormone production/release. And since the temperatures are likely being kept high anyway to stimulate appetite and speed digestion, the growth hormone may well be a necessary biproduct.

On the subject of age vs size for reproduction...I don't think most people would argue that there are more benefits to allowing the snake to reach an appropriate reproductive age. But that doesn't mean that a young female of sufficient size cannot be bred. The clutches/litters are likely to be smaller, and have more unfertilized ova; and there is likely to be a larger physical toll on the female...but it can be done. Examples of this are widespread - I have seen many threads scolding someone for breeding leopard geckos too young, and have been present when 12 year old girls give birth (present in the line of duty, of course)

I know there were more things I wanted to touch on, but I am out of time (not to mention that I have somewhat lost track of things). It's your turn!

hey i dont mind trying to get my retics to breed sooner. i feed the crap out of my snakes... i dont chain feed though. i take advantage of the fact that they are hungry and feed them big, managable meals at the smallest interest in food.

nothing would be worse than to have a $6000.00 snake die from regurg

i understand that most of the androgenenic hormomes are released in the early years... but i believe there is a maxinmum and a minimum range of growth allowed by the DNA. unless your shooting steriods in your snake... then its growth will be limited to a natural maximum... or genetic potential.

can a snake grow faster from powerfeeding?

sure, why not... ?

will they grow bigger than if they werent powerfed?

yes... but i believe that the body is limited by its genetic potential. you cant take a male retic that would normally get 12ft and make it 18ft, if it has the genetics then its a different story.

as far as the shed cycle... there could me more to that then just its relation to food intake. cells have their own kind of biological clock... i have seen in my snakes that they shed in regular intervals regardless of feeding schedule - the only thing that differs is the growth inbetween cycles.

your thoughts?

Originally Posted by esoteric-lizard

as far as the shed cycle... there could me more to that then just its relation to food intake. cells have their own kind of biological clock... i have seen in my snakes that they shed in regular intervals regardless of feeding schedule - the only thing that differs is the growth inbetween cycles.

your thoughts?

True a shed cycle can occur regularly regardless of a feeding schedule, I have snakes that do that even though they are picky eaters, they will still shed in the appropriate timeframe.

A she cycle is also triggered when a prey size is large, it sends the body a message that to be able to consume foods that size again, it needs to grow. With regular feedings my snakes usually shed about the same time all together. It is nice that they do that, it also helps me moniter their growth. If they shed too often, I am feeding too much. If they do not shed within a certain timeframe, I am either not feeding them enough or she better be gravid. Though this is more accurate with a snake that eats regulary and is not hesitant with food. You can trigger a growth with a large prey size.

Originally Posted by Junkyard

True a shed cycle can occur regularly regardless of a feeding schedule, I have snakes that do that even though they are picky eaters, they will still shed in the appropriate timeframe.

A she cycle is also triggered when a prey size is large, it sends the body a message that to be able to consume foods that size again, it needs to grow. With regular feedings my snakes usually shed about the same time all together. It is nice that they do that, it also helps me moniter their growth. If they shed too often, I am feeding too much. If they do not shed within a certain timeframe, I am either not feeding them enough or she better be gravid. Though this is more accurate with a snake that eats regulary and is not hesitant with food. You can trigger a growth with a large prey size.

ok michael, i can see this... but does this mean they are gonna grow faster AND bigger than they were naturally born to be... granted your pushing growth faster towards its genetic potential, and not beyond.

what kind of snakes do you keep?

Interesting topic....

I feed my hatchling Balls twice a week until they hit 500-600 grams and then cut them back to once a week. I have been told by a few that they consider that power feeding, I personally consider it meeting the demands of a quickly growing baby snake. I also feed slightly undersized meals. Rats that are a tad smaller around than the snake is at its widest point. I have found this makes for easier digestion and a more consistent eater.

what about this question:

generally in snakes... is it age, or size that determines reproductive maturity?