Adenovirus Questions

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

From what I have read, the virus could be shed from days to years. That's a pretty big discrepency, and would make alot of difference when looking for ways to control this virus.

can you share where you read the shed for days part? I have not seen that, all indicators I know of, including ones that have been repeat tested show them shedding the viral cells for at least 4 years (that is as long as it has been followed) I do not know if all do, but the ones that have tested by owners over years have

I am not trying to downplay the experiences of breeders who have had to deal with adeno infection in their animals, but I am concerned that people may prematurely jump to conclusions before we have all the peices to this puzzle.

We need to share our experiences and information, and try to put two and two together to figure out exactly how this virus actually affects the bearded dragon population.

First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear

Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

My dragons have bloodlines from all over, which I suppose would mean the possibility that one carries the virus is more likely. All are in excellent health.

Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear.

I would be shocked if any of my animals tested positive for the virus, but then again, there might be many shocked people with healthy animals if this virus is as widespread as some believe.

It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

Unrelated to the prior response to Valley Dragons, it has been emailed to me that someone has twisted my comments prior in this thread and are implying that Wendy, Dr Wentz or me are being less that honest about something. And we wonder why the researchers will not come on and answer questions or want anything to do with this????

I said

in his spare time, has been doing dietary studies, not ongoing adenovirus

What I got back in email BUT DID NOT SAY was "Dan accepted animals from Wendy under the impression of doing continued research on adenovirus. You now state that he is not currently doing research on adenovirus, but instead dietary studies at this time."

No where do I say "instead" "not currently" or "at this time"

So there is no misunderstanding in what I did say, let me spell it out real clear. He did an adenovirus study, when I talked to him last in detail about that study, he was not working on it, he was doing dietary studies, but wanted to do more adenoviral test with unrelated pairings in the future- to test transmission to offspring theories. Prior all he had where related, from he same parent dragons. When the opportunity came up that Wendy had two separate UNRELATED clutches that tested positive, but had big hearty appearing babies that were not showing any signs, PLUS a healthy appearing adult male carrier, he accepted those to do the future studies we wants. Those dragons are only a few months old..... they are future studies as the females need to grow up to breed

Any other problems? please feel free to post them here, in the open to everyone, not sneak around behind someones back and change the statements to others. There has been far too much of that going on for 2 months now

Originally Posted by CheriS

can you share where you read the shed for days part?

I was referring to various forms of adenovirus - most which are easily researched on the net. There is not enough info on reptile andenovirus to be conclusive.


First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

By jumping to conclusions, i am referring tot he fact that people should not start killing off their animals until more studies are done. I am supportive of not selling positive animals until we know more about htis virus


The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. (well, yeah, that is why I recommend not panicking)They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. (questioning things is part of my nature. Most intelligent people do not accept everything for face value, especially things that are not even well researched) On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear (isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing to me?)



Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

Wow, CheriS, that is great. Since you are so on top of things, then why don't you go ahead and answer all these questions for us. You seem to have all the right connections with the people who have dealt with this virus, so you should know the answers!


Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear. Ok - so what does that have to do with what I posted?


It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, (who's to say who does and who does not have it? I really doubt that there are many breeders that have fully tested ALL of their stock) from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

Oh, really? How do you know? Because there have been soooo many tests done on this.....

Cheris, I will post my questions on the Sunshine thread for you to answer them so that all can see the answers. Thank you so much for your contribution!
Jamie

The first thread on Adeno virus was Attacking Sunshinedragons for selling "Black" Plaque known Adeno virus Dragons

Sunshinedragon shut down, stopped Breeding, Stopped selling etc & investedgated for 5 weeks in peak season, and still came to the same conclusion...the Empress Wears no clothes>CheriS

The thread that was started by Whiskersmom about Sunshinedragons after she sent us, Sunshinedragons this e-mail about a Dragon she Obtained from Sunshinedragons>

Thanks,
Sherri

"By the way....Whiskers, son of Pyro and Studly, woke up today for a bit from brumation. I weighed him and thought you would like to know that he is 22" long and weighs 728 grams. His vet says he's one of healthiest dragons he has seen in a long time. I'm not overly concerned about this virus, just thought I should try to keep myself informed - thanks again."

Then Sherri starts a thread that we are selling deadly Adeno dragons. -700+ yearling that her own Vet says is one of the healthiest Dragons he ever saw???? Well if Adeno dragons produce 700+ healthy yealings we wish our whole colony had Adeno. LOL

Cheri S spread rumors, innuedos, and unsubstatiated untruths that Sunshinedragons was knowling selling "Black Plaque" Dragons-The empress wears no Clothes.

Ivy League University of Penn, ranked as one of the top 5 Vet Schools/Hospitals in the country gave us this explanation which we posted:

"Neither Nicole or I are researchers in adenovirus disease or biology. Active researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of this virus.

Neither Nicole or I know enough about adenovirus to write a letter that has any teeth to it. *******The more we found out for you, the more it was obvious that experts are confused.

Here are adenovirus facts:

It MAY BE in many colonies of beared dragons in the US.
It has not been found YET in wild bearded dragons.(possibly now)
No one can predict if a bearded dragon that is positive will die and/or transmit disease.
There is no test that can proclaim a bearded dragon totally free of this disease while the bearded dragon is alive.
It may not even cause disease.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
********-There is a big difference between adenovirus infection and adenovirus disease.<<<<<<<<<<
Not all bearded dragons that are infected with the virus will go on to develop disease.

*****Here is our simple answer- we just don't know how best to advice anyone with a beardie colony b/c the science has yet to be worked out.

>Active researchers in reptile virology say they know very little about the biology of this virus.

>Karen and Nicole are specialist in one of the top veterinarian Schools/Hospitals in the country. IVY League!!!

>Both Karen and Nicole have direct phone numbers of the most knowlegeable, respected and best Vets in the Country. They each spent over 20 hours contacting and speaking with those Specialist Directly, and this is what they found out.

>No One knows for sure if Adeno causes Deaths, serious illnesses by itself, or is even spread easily.

They found out no one, absolutely no one has any study, Scientific proof of how if at all Adenovirus actually affects any Dragon.

...............
Now here is what U.O.P. Speaking about the time , money and most important passion Sunshinedragons spent for the wellfare of all dragons and Reptiles)

" Here are givens that we can say are fact:

>You are a passionate and compassionate advocate for your beardies and your business.

>You are trying to do what no one has ever done.


>You care about enriching and improving more than just the beardies in your charge; you strive to improve the lots of all reptiles.

>We love people like this and we try very hard to work with them. We give away
our services to these people as much as we can b/c we only want the best for
these animals. And it is a great way to teach our students.


(Karen L. Rosenthal, Director of Special Species Medicine
Mathew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Penn.)
--------------------------------


Dan Wentz never answered Sunshinedragons questions on his study either , even after We resent it and it's now 6 months????

----------------------------------------------------

Now from a vet that spoke directly with Dr stacey, Dr Jacobsens Associate>....From a prominent Breeders Vet.....

" I spoke to Dr. Stacey, who works with Dr. Jacobson. His feeling is that because most of the bearded dragons in this country are from an original group, that no collection is likely truly "free" of adenovirus. There are also asymptomatic enteric adenoviruses that may not cause disease, but could be identified on fecal samples. Most adenoviruses are opportunistic and cause disease under periods of stress, such as poor husbandry or improper diets. ,,,,,,,,We can do this test if you would like (if you are feeling pressure from your clients/colleagues), however, I agree with Dr. Stacey that it may be more expense than useful information. ......."....

__________________________________________

Now Jim O another respected Scientist wrote Jim O- A scientist not a breeder wrote:

Despite the fact that I believe that certain people have made statements that are perhaps best termed less than forthright, I wanted to make some comments about this issue.

As is likely true, much if not most of the nearded dragon stock in this country has come from small group(s) of imports. There has been so much "cross-pollination" of breeders that it is likely that adenovirus has passed through or resides in the collections of most if not all major breeders. If that is the case where is the epidemic of deaths?

The information that has been posted, while no doubt relevant, is opinion, and is based on anecdotal experience (I have seen...) and is not based on prospective peer reviewed studies.

There are multiple serotypes, or strains, of adenoviruses. Some are probably more likely to be pathogenic in bearded dragons than are others, but no one has done the studies to find out which ones those are. Think about E. coli and the recent outbreak. We ALL have E.coli in our large intestines, jut not those particular strains that cause disease.

A negative test does not prove negativity. Even if the test could absolutely rule out virus in the feces (which it does not do completely as there are admittedly false negatives) that only proves that there was no virus being shed at that time. Think about having a cold sore, a herpes simplex virus infection. Those are persistent infections that are sometimes active and sometimes inactive (BTW some people with cold sores develop life threatening herpes encephalitis too). One is not shedding herpes virus every day so one negative test is not conclusive. Neither is one negative fecal for adenovirus. In fact, we don't know how often an infected, asymptomatic animal sheds virus as those studies have yet to be done.

Another analogy is the bacteria N. meningiditis, the causative agent in meningococcal meningitis. It may be present in 1-2% of "healthy" people's oro-nasopharynx up to perhaps 20% of people living in crowded conditions such as prisons, army boot camps, and college dormitories, but very few go on to have disease. This bacteria is a killer once it causes disease, but does so in very few people who carry it.

So...what are people to do with all of this? I don't know. For people who have had several animals die from this, well they were probably infected with a more pathogenic serotype or had dragons with some other immune system problem. That's a guess but until there is actual data, which may never come, it is a reasonable one.

For the rest of you...well I have some dragons that I'm not planning to breed and I'm not going to test them. But if I were going to breed them I'm not sure that I would because I'm not convinced that I have enough information to know what to do with the results of the test, especially if they are negative. I would have a hard time saying my dragons are truly negative with one or even two negative tests. And even if they are positive, they are thriving and appear quite unaffected. Until you know what to do with the answers, asking the question only leaves you with more questions.

The scientific studies need to be done, for sure. But don't expect that to happen anytime soon as they cost lots of money to do. Until then, it's Russian Roulette no matter what choice a breeder makes. But I, myself, with my scientific background, would not take one negative fecal as "proof" of an uninfected colony by any breeder

>>>Cheri S Post.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
>Are you ignoring what Dr Jacobson , Dr Wentz and the person running the tests say, all who have worked with this virus?<

(Jim O's response)
No, but they are basing their opinions on conjecture, not scientific proof, and that was, and still is my point. They are only opinions, informed ones perhaps, but still just speculative. It can be my "informed opinion" that going out on a cold day causes pneumonia but it may not be so. Similarly with Linus Pauling and Vitamin C. He was a Noble Laureate but his later "work" and opinions were bunk and have never been confirmed.

After over 40-60 pages of post not a single person , breeder, hobby Breeder, Pet owner came forward to say they recieved a sick or dying dragon from Sunshinedragons.

Every living animal has a mortality % and can get sick. Yet when put out there for almost a month all we got was an incredible 6 month old dragon that the owner indicated it wasn't developing the way he expected. We met him , paid all his vet bills we knew of and the price of the dragon.

Guess What> He will now be one of our best Red Breeders,at over 600 grams and only a bit over a year old. LOL

So Where are all the sick , dying dragons we "knowing" sold. Where are the Dead. Where is the Black Plague that was supposed to wipe out colony after colony.

Yes it is a virus, yes we should be concerned about adeno and any Infection, potentioal illness etc. Yet every living creature has a variety of illnesses it can get or we would all live forever. It was the unprofessional Vicious attacks that we take issue with.

Where is the black Plaque. Cheri S says she hears of them, yet no one else has. There is no scientific proof that any Dragon actually died just from having Adeno. Not one study can come to that conclusion based on any study.

We Wish Sherri- Whiskersmom would let us have the male we sold her back as well.

Neverthelesss we were picked out regardless of our efforts to investigate, and we shut down for 5 weeks...did any other Breeder spend the money or time confiring with top Vet hospitals, scientist etc. No not a one until finally another breeder questioned the " innuedos".

Well then the mob mentality began once more with CheriS leading the charge.

Cheri S in our opinion has no Credibility, no Integrity, and would rather argue and attack people or a company than do her best to address and resolve the key isue in a professional manner.

Bearded Dragon Breeders are going closing down everydayalmost...good onesis the biggest disappointment. good ones. Does anyone wonder why now.

We were happy to respond even when we indicated we wouldn't. Just to keep the post going and show the ignorance and viciousness of certain people in this industry.

No one is going to question Sunshinedragons Integrity, it's not negotiable.

We realize by now posting there will more than likely be a "Mob mentality response".

We would like to say thank you to the 100's of E-mails from Breeder's and Customers that supported us.

So go ahead CheriS continue your ignorant blame throwing-we love it. You show yourself for who you really are.

Once again Sherri-Whiskersmom, can we have our pet back. You don't deserve him.

Regards from the entire Sunshinedragon Team-irrelevant of who wrote the above we are all on the same page in our beliefs and approach.

Pathetic how some people attempt to climb to the top on the dead bodies of others.

[quote]Once again Sherri-Whiskersmom, can we have our pet back. You don't deserve him[/QUOTE



I only asked questions of you....questions that you seemed to not want to provide the answers to, Bruce.
I never said that Whiskers has Adeno....in fact, he tested negative, but this is his first time at testing. Time will tell if he will remain negative.
I wanted to know about Pyro, Whiskers mother. I also wanted to know about Dante, the father of the baby that you were sending me to breed with Whiskers. I don't believe I received the answers from you yet.

Whiskers just went for his one year check up, he weighs 744 grams and once again, the vet was impressed with his level of health. He's in wonderful shape.
Thank you Bruce, but I believe that Whiskes good health has something to do with my husbandry.....not just genetics.

Why, in heavens name, would you want my dragon back? I'm reading this as a joke, ok Bruce? Because I can't believe you could possibly be serious, there is no way I would let Whiskers go.....he's a much loved part of my family.

oh boy oh boy.....here we go

do they sell Tums in 5 gallon buckets?

I quite enjoyed reading that.
Jim

I am sorry, I did not know you did not want the other questions in your last post answered either, so sorry to ramble. I will leave them to the people you want to hear from.

Thanks for answering my questions

Jamie I thnk you need to read post #117 on here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d=1#post447027

To your questions that really make me wonder about your modivaton, but to be fair I will answer what I can, no matter how childish you want to be

1. Just how prevelant is this virus in the U.S?
No scientific data on that. Many colonies test clear or if they have a positive, it is often only one carrier adult or a breeding pair and those offsprings, not their entire colony. I think Wendy will be happy to discuss this with you
2. What is the actual lethality of the virus?
No scientific data on that, it is on the necropsy reports as the cause of death or conclusions in several dozen necropsy reports. I think Wendy would be glad to post hers if you want
3. Are there different strains with varying degree of lethality?
No scientific data on that, no indication there are more than one, but possible
4. Exactly what ARE the symptoms to look out for?
See Dr Wentz's report http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections...47-page-1.html
Article with post by some online that is complied from people who experienced it- with updates since 2002 http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-74.html
Both will show you that the symptoms can have wide ranges, especially in regard to age of the animal
OR talk to Wendy, Suzanne or Andy, all who have spoken about it publicly and are willing to talk to anyone that needs it
5. By what means is the virus passed?
Wentz says direct oral/fecal route from other infected ones, and through the mother to offspring, (not known if from the ovaries or from stool as the eggs pass through the cloaca). Other possibles are animals to hand to animal transmission as indicated from 3 breeders who returned from one show area in NY with it seems to indicate (2 separate times). Also possible animal to furnishings to animal transmission as indicated in about a dozen other cases. No reports of air transmission, in fact it appear even when the opportunity was there, it did not happen.
6. A Vicky stated, how long is the virus shed?
No scientific data on that, to date, ones that have tested positive by owners, have always tested positive, up to 4 years now.
7. Does the virus lay dormant until the animal becomes ill, stressed, infested with parasites, at which point the virus is activated?
No scientific data on that, babies that do show signs of the viral infection within 3 weeks of exposure, all have died within 72 hours after the first signs. Babies that had been shipped off, came down ill and died within a few weeks in the new home of adenovirus, there was no knowledge when they had been exposed and if they were in the incubation period or a longer time since exposure. With older dragons or adult it does seem that there are factors that do weaken them and the virus overpowers them,(the virus was always there, husbandry does NOT cause the virus) such as egg laying, URI or other things that compromise their immune system. There are more indicators that the virus casues the parasite overloads, not the other way around. One thing that has been common in many infected animals in the same colony with ones that are not infected, is the difficulty in controling parasites in those positive.
Is is possible for the virus to spread during a "dormant" period, if in fact, one exists?
No scientific data on that or if there is a even such a thing as a dormant period, Jacobsons says it is possible, but no indicators it is.
8. Is simple husbandry practices, e.g., cleaning with bleach, enough to kill the virus in the environment?
No to bleach, I have been told heat, nolvasans or Quat cleaners(20-30 minutes) are more apt to kill them, It is better than nothing, and SEEMS to work. Hand sanitizers DO NOT work.
If the virus is airborne, what control measures do we use?
There has never been any indicator it is airborne, all indicators are that it is not, as ones without direct contact, but in the same rooms, air flow areas indoors or outdoor locations side by side remained negative next to positive ones, for years.
9. Could a bearded dragon be treated with anti-virals to suppress illness and shedding of the virus?
No Scientific data on that yet
Could an animal being treated with anti-virals be bred and produce healthy, virus-free offspring?
No Scientific data on that yet, Acyclovirs, including Zovirax and another med I could not locate the name of (I am trying to get this to you online as fast as I can, your not real pateint in waiting very long and I can not work that fast) has been been tried when the dragons was showing active illness due to the adenovirus with no success and in 1 positive, no symptoms showing female, that was gravid, but she died following laying.
10. Suppose we selectively bred animals who carry the virus but suffer no ill-effects. Would we eventually have a group of animals virtually resistant to the virus?
Could, not a would as it is not a guarantee it will happen ever. Jacobson says this is possible, it has happened before in other species and many virus including man

Thank you for taking my questions seriously and attempting to answer them.

Jamie